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View Full Version : 5.56/.223 Appropriate? House w/Many Windows - Need to Minimize Risk to Neighbors (15->30 Yds Away)



Powder_Burn
29 June 2008, 11:29
I have been reading all over the net for a week but have not found information related to the effects of regular window pane glass on a 5.56/.223 round. I am planning to acquire a small carbine dedicated to indoor only home defense and want to minimize risk to my neighbors. The problem is that my house has more windows around the perimeter than brick/wallboard so I am concerned about collateral damage.

The question: Is there a 5.56/.223 round that would be at least as safe as other common home defense types when shot through standard window glass (9mm, .40, .45, 00 Buck etc)? I am looking for the best balance of performance/safety.

As an alternate option, I am also considering a house carbine in either 9mm or 5.7x28 but I didn't find information on the effects on glass on these either. I am open to SBR'ing an AR but would prefer to stay at 16" to avoid paperwork.

BRD Jerm
29 June 2008, 13:47
i think anything that has acceptable performance will also penetrate through many walls and/or glass.

the best way to minimize risk is shot placement...

keep them in the BG,he'll stop them better than anything and dropping him(/them) allows the firing to stop.

a "safer"(less effective) round could just mean more rounds needed,which would make for more of the risk you're trying to avoid.

Powder_Burn
29 June 2008, 16:51
To your point, I agree good skills and quality equipment trump all. The nature of my question really is that while there are many adequate loads, I want the one that is the least lethal once it goes through a window. So for example, I like the Hornady 75gr TAP load and the Black Hills 77gr MatchKing. However, if I used a Speer 63gr soft point, I would assume it to be adequate as well and among the three, one is bound to be less lethal in a miss situation. The question is whether or not two 3mm layers of glass will disrupt any bullet in any caliber enough to make a difference.

TigerStripe
29 June 2008, 19:47
A ballistic tipped round would be less likely to go through glass. 55 grain TAP black box would likely be a good round. Winchester 45 grain JHP .223 would as well. It may take a couple more shots to "stop" the BG though. 5.7 is not a good round as it was designed specifically for penetration. The 5.7 JHP round may do the job. JMO...



TS

Paulo_Santos
30 June 2008, 05:58
Hornady 40 Gr. TAP or the Federal TRU 45 Gr. HP. would be your best bet.

BRD Jerm
30 June 2008, 11:41
To your point, I agree good skills and quality equipment trump all. The nature of my question really is that while there are many adequate loads, I want the one that is the least lethal once it goes through a window. So for example, I like the Hornady 75gr TAP load and the Black Hills 77gr MatchKing. However, if I used a Speer 63gr soft point, I would assume it to be adequate as well and among the three, one is bound to be less lethal in a miss situation. The question is whether or not two 3mm layers of glass will disrupt any bullet in any caliber enough to make a difference.


i understand...

just seems like more of a liability concern to me than one of safety.i would think the safest thing for everyone(minus the BG) would be to end the threat as quickly as possible.a less effective round could(in theory anyway) just mean more rounds flying in both directions...

i guess it comes down to how effective one of the "safer" rounds is relative to say the 75gr TAP?

Powder_Burn
1 July 2008, 10:08
From the responses, it looks like I might as well just assume the windows aren't even there and make decisions from there. In my situation, it looks like am headed down the road of a 9mm or .45 carbine. Pistol rounds are adequate in the 0->15 yard range while being somewhat less lethal beyond the perimeter of the house in a miss situation. Seems to be the best balance of performance/safety.

BRD Jerm
1 July 2008, 11:03
while being somewhat less lethal beyond the perimeter of the house in a miss situation.

there seems to be alot of debate about that(lethality of handgun rounds vs certain rifle rounds after penetration of objects).

i dont know what to tell you,other than much of the evidence seems to be counterintuitive.

Stickman
1 July 2008, 11:43
there seems to be alot of debate about that(lethality of handgun rounds vs certain rifle rounds after penetration of objects).

i dont know what to tell you,other than much of the evidence seems to be counterintuitive.


There is no debate, its factual, and reports can be read on it from the FBI as well as many others. Handguns are not the way to bring the fight to a bad guy inside your house. Its less effective its its terminal ballsitics, and the handgun hollow point rounds clog with drywall or wood, simply becoming a slug once they go through a barrier. A 5.56 round at least the the probability of fragmenting.

BRD Jerm
1 July 2008, 12:24
thats what i thought(enough so to make my decisions based arround said tests),but im no ballistics expert.

didnt say it was legitimate debate.[:D]

i would think a rifle/carbine chambered in the pistols rounds would be the worst possible way to go?

Stickman
1 July 2008, 12:46
i would think a rifle/carbine chambered in the pistols rounds would be the worst possible way to go?

The worst way to go would be believing that the police will come save you, and not having firearms in the house to start with. [:)]

The problem with a lot of these scenarios is that they can be taken so far out of real world context that it becomes obscene. In real world use of force encounters, things don't tend to happen the way you plan.



ETA- I don't mean by any stretch that the OP is getting goofy with his question.

BRD Jerm
1 July 2008, 14:12
The worst way to go would be believing that the police will come save you, and not having firearms in the house to start with.

too true.[:D]

Whixton
1 July 2008, 15:54
The worst way to go would be believing that the police will come save you, and not having firearms in the house to start with.

May I use this line? With credit of course

Paulo_Santos
1 July 2008, 17:34
I think too many people get caught up on the whole ballistics thing. If you shoot anyone with a decent .223 bullet, they will go down, period. I would be more worried about tactics and how to use an AR or handgun properly before I beat myself over the head with which ammo is best for this or that situation. If someone enters your house and you are justified to shoot him/her, shoot the BG until he stops moving towards you.

TigerStripe
1 July 2008, 19:26
I think too many people get caught up on the whole ballistics thing. If you shoot anyone with a decent .223 bullet, they will go down, period. I would be more worried about tactics and how to use an AR or handgun properly before I beat myself over the head with which ammo is best for this or that situation. If someone enters your house and you are justified to shoot him/her, shoot the BG until he stops moving towards you.

Exactly.


TS

Stickman
1 July 2008, 20:14
May I use this line? With credit of course

I tell people that while I'm in uniform, I certainly have no problems with you telling people the truth as well.

BRD Jerm
1 July 2008, 22:03
I think too many people get caught up on the whole ballistics thing. If you shoot anyone with a decent .223 bullet, they will go down, period. I would be more worried about tactics and how to use an AR or handgun properly before I beat myself over the head with which ammo is best for this or that situation. If someone enters your house and you are justified to shoot him/her, shoot the BG until he stops moving towards you.


im no expert(as mentioned),and im sure thats true to a large extent.

but seeing the difference in various mediums between a 55gr .223 round and a 75gr TAP in 5.56...lets just say i have alot of respect for the TAP.[wow]

TigerStripe
1 July 2008, 22:38
I'd say 55gr TAP, 60gr TAP and 75gr TAP will all stop a BG in a home invasion/ defense situation. It all depends on what your house layout is, how close your neighbors are and how much that either of those factors weigh on you. I'm by no means a ballistics expert.


TS

Paulo_Santos
2 July 2008, 04:39
im no expert(as mentioned),and im sure thats true to a large extent.

but seeing the difference in various mediums between a 55gr .223 round and a 75gr TAP in 5.56...lets just say i have alot of respect for the TAP.[wow]

Each bullet has its weaknesses and strongpoints. You have to pick the bullet that is best for you. What may work in my situation, may not be the best for you and vice-versa.

The Hornady 75 Gr. TAP is one of the most devastating rounds agains flesh, but it isn't the best against barriers. There are several SWAT Teams that actually use two different rounds. One round as a barrier round and one round which is a very lightweight, such as a 40-55 Gr. bullet, to clear rooms.

Just pick whatever bullet/ammo fits your needs and learn the strengths and weaknesses.

toyar15
11 July 2008, 20:05
Thanks, for the info~~

CAPT KIRK
22 July 2008, 20:58
From the responses, it looks like I might as well just assume the windows aren't even there and make decisions from there. In my situation, it looks like am headed down the road of a 9mm or .45 carbine. Pistol rounds are adequate in the 0->15 yard range while being somewhat less lethal beyond the perimeter of the house in a miss situation. Seems to be the best balance of performance/safety.

IN my department we strongly advocate the use of the 5.56 carbine inside. We use 55gr pointed soft point and find that it actually has less over penetration problems than any handgun round because it fragments and stays in the wall etc. I am also here to tell you from personal experiance that this round also works very well on the BG.

As we say and train.... Head shots work...