Have 1K for an upper

[KevinBLC]

Appreciate the guys helping me on the board with various advice. Have learned quite a bit from reading. Now... I have a 1k budget for a new upper. Here's the deal, I just want a fun shooter. I already have 2 Colt 6920's and a 14.5 BCM, so I feel my Home Defense, Training needs are met.

I'm curious what you guys out there shoot for "fun" whether it be those bad ass MK12 clones I see for distance, or customized RECCE uppers. I'm up for anything, but my budget is 1K, probably flexible a few hundred bucks, but I need to decide within a few weeks before the wife changes her mind. [crazy] Factory builds are great too as I've looked at the LMT MRP's (always liked the idea of a monolithic upper) as well as custom builds I've seen on Weapon Outfitters.

Thanks guys.

[2ATA]

My opinion.

Ammo and training for the 1000 dollars. It sounds like you have several quality rifles.

[Jerry R]

^ +1 What he said.

Having three rifles may meet your home defense needs but when you say your training needs "are met" do you mean you have already been to carbine class(es), or that you have rifles suitable for training should you decide to go?

While my training is sadly lacking, therefore hard to give advice - I would also vote for using the discretionary money for ammo and a good class. Then more ammo to practice what you learned.

[hkdcamcain]

With three AR 15's how many members are in your family? I have two AR15s as primaries. My fiance and I are the only ones who live here. Thus we have rifles in which we can exchange magazines and ammunition. If you have enough rifles for your family, then get more magazines and ammunition. A few spare parts cant hurt either.

On the other hand, once your start doing classes, drills etc with a rifle you will find tons of things that drive you nuts. Then you begin swapping out the parts. This gets expensive. Trust me. Use that money to get your rifles fit to you and that rifle will be more capable (in your hands) than having 2-3 different ones.

[KevinBLC]

My opinion.

Ammo and training for the 1000 dollars. It sounds like you have several quality rifles.

Great advice, but this 1K is on top of any training/ammo budget. That's why I was looking for suggestions on uppers.

[rob_s]

Great advice, but this 1K is on top of any training/ammo budget. That's why I was looking for suggestions on uppers.

I'm also going to give you my upper suggestion, but...

So the ammo and training is budgeted, has it been secured? I know a lot of guys that say "oh, it's not about spending on ammo and training vs. gear, I already have the training money" who never, in fact, schedule the training. They typically have all kinds of excuses (generally "work" or "the kids" as if nobody with a job and kids has ever gone to a training class before) but the fact remains that $1k in the bank earmarked for training... isn't training.

that said...

While I don't personally partake, I think that the precision shooting is where it would be at for "fun". Unlike most gunowners I start at the activity and then build my gear around it. Try as I might, I can't come up with anything fun to do with an SBR, suppressor, full-auto, etc. that couldn't be done with a 6920. The thing that the 6920 maybe can't do, or at least isn't optimized for, is precision shooting. The issue, however, becomes that most people are going to want to geek out the precision upper which means $1k on the upper and another $1k on excuses like triggers and optics. While I don't generally have the patience for precision shooting, I think something like a 16" stainless medium contour barrel and a free-float with a quality set of irons would be a pretty "fun" challenge. But then I'm also kind of odd in that I look for my ability to out-do my gear before I go looking for the new hotness. I spent quite a few years having people give me various new hotness for free, and I always came back to old busted because no amount of new hotness made up for it.

I'd look at something maybe like this
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-18-Rifle-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-18%20ss410%20vtrx13.htm
along with a Gunfighter CH, BCM BCG, and a set of fixed Troy sights. That upper could wind up being turned into a pretty kickass 3-gun rifle for gaming by adding a brake and a low-power variable, or it could wind up becoming a dedicated precision rig with a higher-power variable, a bipod and maybe a cheater trigger in the lower.

Speaking of 3-gun, that's another end-use that might benefit from a dedicated upper. The above would work well for that as well and many 3-gun matches have an irons division.

The Noveske Rogue Hunter upper is ~$1200 and it would also be a nice place to start to head into either precision shooting or 3-gun.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=18rh-556&cat=124&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=

[Jerry R]

My apologies - I "assumed" on the training. If I had known this money was above that allocated for training I would have suggested something similar to Rob. I have more opportunities for benching and target shooting than other trigger time. I ordered an LMT lower from Rainier, assembled it with high-end parts, then ordered an Ultra-Match upper from Rainier. Absolute tack driver. It is only a couple hundred more than your budget, but my motto has always been, "It only costs twice as much to go First Class." [:D]

It will go with me on my next Pdog trip to Montana

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/AR-15/IMG_0952RagansSPRWithScope.jpg (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/pdogkilr/media/Firearms/AR-15/IMG_0952RagansSPRWithScope.jpg.html)

[Gator]

Don't know what state you're in but how about an SBR?

[gatordev]

The Noveske Rogue Hunter upper is ~$1200 and it would also be a nice place to start to head into either precision shooting or 3-gun.
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=18rh-556&cat=124&page=1&search=&since=&status=&title=

Well, since Rob mentioned it... I actually have a Rogue Hunter (old one with the Troy Extreme rail) that I'm thinking about getting rid of because I have a MK12 to do the SPR thing now. While I don't completely fall into the utilitarian mindset that rob_s does (I still think SBRs and suppressors can be fun, at least for now), I do find that I have no use for having two rifles (well, uppers) that do the exact same thing, so that's why I'm looking to get rid of it. If you're interested, let me know. I have the exact round count for the barrel (~1100 rounds) and the BCG that came with it doesn't have a round on it.

Sorry for the blatant spam.

[Stickman]

Well, since Rob mentioned it... I actually have a Rogue Hunter (old one with the Troy Extreme rail) that I'm thinking about getting rid of because I have a MK12 to do the SPR thing now. While I don't completely fall into the utilitarian mindset that rob_s does (I still think SBRs and suppressors can be fun, at least for now), I do find that I have no use for having two rifles (well, uppers) that do the exact same thing, so that's why I'm looking to get rid of it. If you're interested, let me know. I have the exact round count for the barrel (~1100 rounds) and the BCG that came with it doesn't have a round on it.

Sorry for the blatant spam.

One can appreciate your sales pitch under the guise of helping a fellow board member out. :P

[gatordev]

One can appreciate your sales pitch under the guise of helping a fellow board member out. :P

I couldn't resist.

[KevinBLC]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'm continuing to look at SPR and REECE type uppers as that looks to be a winner. I think I will stick with a 16" as they seem to do everything an 18" can. More reading will be needed on my part.

[rob_s]

FWIW, the primary benefits to the 18 are, IMO:
1) flatter trajectory. What that means is less vertical deviation over a given distance.
2) the rifle-length gas system which gives you a smoother and softer recoil which in turn disturbs the sight picture less

I think a lot of people go with the 16" because they start to have delusions about the "do-all carbine" or humping it... wherever the hell people think they are going to hump these things. I'd opt for an 18" because the former is nonsense and the latter doesn't apply since it's either a static-position gun for nappy-time shooting or it's used in brief bursts or fast-paced shooting like in 3-gun or other competitions.

[gatordev]

I think a lot of people go with the 16" because they start to have delusions about the "do-all carbine" or humping it... wherever the hell people think they are going to hump these things. I'd opt for an 18" because the former is nonsense and the latter doesn't apply since it's either a static-position gun for nappy-time shooting or it's used in brief bursts or fast-paced shooting like in 3-gun or other competitions.

Believe it or not, there are people that "hump it" from time to time. Certainly nothing that involves a 60 pound pack and several miles, but when I go out to the (INCONUS) desert to shoot distance, I can't drive my 4Runner over hill and dell (well, legally, anyway), so it's off for a little walk. That said, I still do it with a 18" (or when motivated, a .308 20", which makes me appreciate the guys that have to do it for a living even more).

[Jerry R]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'm continuing to look at SPR and REECE type uppers as that looks to be a winner. I think I will stick with a 16" as they seem to do everything an 18" can. More reading will be needed on my part.

A while back I did a thread on velocity loss per inch of barrel www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?3231-Velocity-loss-based-on-barrel-length Unfortunately we did not have the 18" barrel with us. I put all the specs in the thread if you want the details, but in summary:

Dropping from a 24" (bolt) to a 16" (DI AR) we lost 24.7 FPS per inch of barrel or 197.4 FPS total velocity loss
Dropping from a 16" to a 12.5" we lost 66.2 FPS per inch of barrel or 231.7 FPS total velocity loss

A 24" barrel seemed pretty much optimum for the 5.56 based cartridge. Going from 26" to 24" we only lost 6.6 FPS per inch. But it appears that the velocity loss per inch begins to increase rapidly as the barrel shortens - it does not remain a static loss per inch.

Extrapolating (very loosely) I would GUESS your velocity loss going from 18" to 16" would still be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 FPS per inch. So you might only lose around 50 FPS for the two inches (YMMV - and it could easily double that). Personally, I would rather have the FPS than worry about the two inches of barrel, specially on a "second" upper for your lower. But, that's just me.

[hkdcamcain]

A while back I did a thread on velocity loss per inch of barrel www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?3231-Velocity-loss-based-on-barrel-length Unfortunately we did not have the 18" barrel with us. I put all the specs in the thread if you want the details, but in summary:

Dropping from a 24" (bolt) to a 16" (DI AR) we lost 24.7 FPS per inch of barrel or 197.4 FPS total velocity loss
Dropping from a 16" to a 12.5" we lost 66.2 FPS per inch of barrel or 231.7 FPS total velocity loss

A 24" barrel seemed pretty much optimum for the 5.56 based cartridge. Going from 26" to 24" we only lost 6.6 FPS per inch. But it appears that the velocity loss per inch begins to increase rapidly as the barrel shortens - it does not remain a static loss per inch.

Extrapolating (very loosely) I would GUESS your velocity loss going from 18" to 16" would still be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25 FPS per inch. So you might only lose around 50 FPS for the two inches (YMMV - and it could easily double that). Personally, I would rather have the FPS than worry about the two inches of barrel, specially on a "second" upper for your lower. But, that's just me.

Not aiming to thread jack so forgive me, but that popped up a question for me.

I was told by several people at local stores and ranges that anything past 20 inches in an AR15 is a waste. Something about barrel flexing and sub-par accuracy even with heavier barrels? Curious as to what the opinion is. Lord knows I wouldn't want to carry a 24 inch heavy barreled AR15. Just curious as to real knowledge of its accuracy and usability.

[Jerry R]

My Remington 700 BDL Varmint has a 24" barrel in .223, That's the one in the table. It shoots between 3/8's and 1/2 inch groups when I lay off the coffee. It has taken prairie dogs at a laser measured 610 yards. They are about the size of a 20 ounce coke bottle. Not saying they are wrong, just saying that has not been my experience. My pdog buddy Geoff has the 26 inch version and it shoots every bit as well as mine.

While the AR platform is different, an accurate barreled action is no respecter of platform. Barrel flex is actually called harmonics as it is a wave pattern generated as the projectile moves through the tube. All barrels exhibit this phenomenon. Shorter and stiffer barrels tend to have a smoother wave pattern. Given identical quality, a shorter, stiffer barrel may produce tighter groups as the barrel harmonics have less effect on the projectile as it exits.

If you reload you can use powders designed to burn completely within a barrel length (within reason). Burning all the powder in a given length is another aspect of accuracy. Velocity mean average distribution (MAD) tends to vary more with incomplete combustion. Extreme velocity variations tend to cause stringing. There are Many factors involved in having an accurate rifle or carbine. Barrel length is only one of them. Don't let someone tell you a barrel can't be accurate strictly based on length.

Buy the best quality you can afford, but pick the length appropriate for the mission.

Sorry for the rambling, should not drink Cabernet and type.