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aklaunch
11 January 2014, 13:16
Sorry folks, I don't have any data to display at this time. This thread will likely take me all of 2014 to complete.

I have all of the components on hand to do an accuracy test at 100, 200 and 300 yards.

This test will display the muzzle velocity of the most accurate loads. And then maybe a notch or two above that for a bit more velocity. Even if accuracy opens up a bit.

Bullets:

Barnes TSX 70's
Speer TNT 70's
Swift bonded spitzer boat tail 75's
Hornady HPBT 75's
Berger HPBT 73's
Berger OTM TAC 77's
Lapua Scenar 77's
Nosler Custom 77's
Sierra MK 77's with and without lee crimped cannelures.
JLK 77's

I have all of these in my possession except for the JLK, Swift, Berger 73's & Speer bullets.

Brass:

Nosler brass for Nosler bullets
Lapua brass for Lapua bullets
Hornady brass for Hornady bullets
Norma brass for Berger bullets
Lake City 2009 brass for Barnes
IMI brass for Speer bullets
Federal brass for Sierra bullets
Un determined brass for the JLK's
Un determined brass for the Swift Sciroccos



I will likely mix some Lake City 2008 and 2009 nato stamped brass as well.

Primers:

Primers will be what the book calls for.

I have a good selection of Winchester, Remington, Fed 205 and CCI 450's + #41's

I may mix and match a bit when i use the Lake City brass just for experimentation reasons.

Powders:

Again what the book calls for.

I have all of the popular ones on hand at this time except for TAC and RL 15.

Rifle:

I have a heavy barrel Mark 12 which is a very good quality 18 inch barrel. It has around 1300 rounds through it since new.

Also I have a couple of carbines in the 16 inch barrel length.

Last but not least is the 11.5 inch short barrel rifle.

Most tests will be with the MK 12.

Reloading Manuals:

Lyman
Sierra
Berger
Nosler
Speer
Hornady
Barnes

About me:

My shooting abilities are the right on the dead center of average.
I have reloaded around 4-500 rounds total and am new to this hobby
I have researched all of the above manuals thoroughly and carefully.

Reloading equipment:

I have an RCBS rock chucker reloading press.

I use Forster FL sizing dies, and the Forster Ultra Match bullet seater now.

Hopefully by the end of March. I will have the data out for at least one of these.

Ratfink
19 January 2014, 22:03
Thanks for doing that I'm excited to see the results.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Jerry R
29 January 2014, 11:55
aklaunch, I am looking forward to the results as well.

We did a barrel length versus velocity test a couple of years ago. We did not do as many load variations as you are planning, but many different barrel lengths from 26" down to 7.5" - object was to get some sort of average velocity loss per inch of barrel as the length dropped. We enjoyed the testing, I'm sure you will too. I have been reloading since the mid 70's, but do not load anything heavier than 60 grains in 5.56. I will be very interested in your velocity figures.

Thanks for starting the thread.

aklaunch
6 February 2014, 09:42
After being very busy doing home improvement projects i did not get any testing done. leaving for work again and won't even be able to consider doing anything until the end of March.

I just built a new reloading bench indoors to facilitate the hobby until the cold weather season is over. In addition i was able to load up 50 Berger 77 grain OTM TAC's using Norma cartridge cases.

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/LoadBench_zps5594ad8e.jpeg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/LoadBench_zps5594ad8e.jpeg.html)

I started low on the powder scale because the Berger 1st edition manual does not specify the cases or the primers they used... Not really impressed at all with the lack of info regarding that matter. The rest of the manual is very unique, informative and a must have IMO.

I made 3 different batches using Varget, Winchester 748 and IMR XBR 8208 all just a hair over the minimum start load for the advertised 223 pressure.

tappedandtagged
4 April 2014, 14:06
Hmmm. Very interested in this. Thanks for doing it.

I've never done much in testing beyond accuracy loads for plinking/varmint ammo using 55 grain Hornady SP and hunting ammo using Sierra 65 grain Game King.

mustangfreek
7 April 2014, 01:01
Cool thread, and look forward to your results. I am somewhat new to loading the heavier grain .224 loads , but have had good luck so far with hornady 68gr bthp's and even better luck with seirra 69gr SMK, using varget and h335 only so far, and both have shot under a MOA at 100 yards with my bench gun , home built 18" RA match barrel with FF handguard AR with a crappy milspec trigger. Give the edge to the varget, all while using federal match primers.

Working up loads now with CCI 450 mag primers and some AA2230 and some newly acquired TAC, Which i have read is great with the 77gr stuff, which i want to try next,anyways, carry on and report back.

aklaunch
23 April 2014, 19:57
My ultimate goal is to find the most accurate bullet/brass combo for the 300 and 600 yard lines. In addition to performance I am looking at cost.

At the time of this writing, and when in stock, You can buy 1000 Nosler CC 77 grain BTHP bullets for $171.00 plus shipping. This equates to around 17.1 cents per bullet.

The brass is on the expensive side, selling for around 60 cents per shell. WSR primers usually run about 4 cents a piece.



http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/NoslerEquipment_zpsbc07495d.jpeg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/NoslerEquipment_zpsbc07495d.jpeg.html)

The brass is of the highest quality. They run a bit short at 1.745

After firing 25 of them i measured the cases and did not notice hardly any variance in case length from new. The primer pockets did not need to be de-burred. They were clean and smooth.

I randomly weighed and measured 10 bullets. The bullets ranged from 0.91-0.96 long and weighed between 76.90 - 77.16 grains.

Some types of bullets are a pain to get consistent C.O.A.L. My bullet seating die seats from the ogive and i normally let a bit of variance pass by my personal quality control, but some types need constant die adjustment to stay within what i would consider reasonable. The Nosler's required no additional bullet seating die adjustments.

In my opinion maximum effective range is the range that a projectile stays super sonic. (roughly 1200 fps) The temperature's in my area range from around 20F-95F

My range Altitude is approximately 200 feet above sea level

The Nosler 77 grain bullets have a B.C. of 0.346

What this means to me is at 20F i will need a minimum velocity of 2500fps at 20F. As a general rule of thumb there is a difference of 210fps in most rifle cartridges from 0F-100F. Just because i am clocking near that on a 65F day does not mean i will have that sort of effective range during a cold spell in the middle of the winter.

On the flip side... At 95F the minimum fps is way down to 2275fps.

Interesting huh?



http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/9ea0cea2-a2b8-4f36-9099-132e3bdee7cc_zpsd4e87ac6.jpg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/9ea0cea2-a2b8-4f36-9099-132e3bdee7cc_zpsd4e87ac6.jpg.html)

On the bottom of the target i wrote "noticed primer flattening" After further inspection i noticed NO primer flattening and have upped the charge one half of a grain.





I have an RCBS 505 scale and an electronic Gempro 250 i used to manually weight each powder charge.

Since i have all of the components the book calls for in addition to having a 5.56 chamber, i decided to start in the middle of the 223 pressure range.

With a lot of chronograph work behind me i was very impressed with the velocity variation of the H4895 powder and the accuracy of the Nosler bullets.

The Nosler brass came in a box that said fully ready to load. The first thing i noticed was that the cases were much shorter than the competitions. Seems they averaged around 1.745 long.

Going against my own rules and intuition i loaded the rounds with out full length resizing the brass. Out of the box of 50, there were 2 cases that had smaller diameter case mouths than the others. This was evident when trying to seat the bullets. I had to push a little harder than normal on my press and noticed copper jacket material coming off the bearing surface area when seating. I am also under the impression that the larger group in the upper right was one of those cases. Unfortunately i think the second one is ready to be fired using Varget powder.



I do not hold this against Nosler. I just recommend FL resizing all new brass.

It was a nice day out there. The temps where in the low 60's and the altimeter setting was 30.15. My range is around 200 feet above sea level. I have been shooting so many different combinations of bullets and powder lately i have not bothered to adjust my scope to much. This project is not about hitting the bulls eye. It is about consistent groups.

I was very impressed by the velocities posted. Starting load was 21.5 and max was 23.5. I am getting just under 2500fps and still have a full grain to go. The Nosler manual shows the load to get more accurate until the max load is reached.

Unfortunately the tripod i use for my spotting scope is the tripod i need for the chronograph. I was unable to tell which shot out of the 5 shot groups were the flyers.

I have noticed that the first shot fired out of a cold barrel, or a cooled barrel is always the slowest. My belief is that this is because as the chamber heats up, pressure increases and could be linked to that first cold/slow bullet being the flyer of the group.

This in my opinion is one of the major disadvantages to using a self loading rifle for extreme accuracy. It is hard to calculate the difference in ammunition temperature/pressure from one shot to the next.

On this test i waited about 1.5 minutes between each shot. Unfortunately the cartridge is sitting in there pre heating the whole time. IMO this did help to cool the barrel and the chamber though.

All in all i was very pleased with the velocity and accuracy of the cartridges. I will continue to work up and see how it goes. I am also loading and testing Varget with the Nosler products.

I loaded up the now once fired cases another 0.5 grains and am heading out to the range tomorrow to see the results. The cases just felt better loading them after a firing and a full length resize. I am optimistic that we will see even better results. The numbers don't lie though and we will see.

Will get it posted asap.

Thanks

mustangfreek
25 April 2014, 17:32
Maybe i missed it in the above post, where these 77gr nosler the non canelure's or did they have one? Did you crimp?

thanks, picked up some non cannelure 77gr noslers in trade and plan on working up some loads using TAC and 1x fired LC brass.

aklaunch
26 April 2014, 16:34
I plan on making this one heck of a nice thread. And it will be extremely lengthy. I need to make a sequence that i follow in all reviews.

These were non cannelured bullets. I emailed Nosler to find out when they plan on releasing cannelured 77gr. bullets. The representative emailed back quickly and said they are working on it.

I have both cannelured and non cannelured Sierra bullets lying around waiting for the difference to be tested. They are likely last on the list as they are covered so in depth on the world wide web.

I will get another batch of Nosler's ready tomorrow and test them Monday and hopefully post the results shortly there after.

I am very impressed by the quality, accuracy and price of their bullets. The brass on the other hand is top dollar price wise. I plan to cover how many firings i get out of them before i get splitting, loose primer pockets or a loss of accuracy due to the case mouth not crimping the bullet tight enough.

Out of the bunch the Nosler 77's and the Hornady 75's are the cheapest.

I will post a Ballistic chart i made up on all of the bullets this evening. It has some very, very interesting data.

Thank you for your interest.

mustangfreek
27 April 2014, 01:45
Cool, appreciate you talking the time to post up all the info.

I just picked up some non cannelured nosler 77's and plan on trying some tac and varget workup loads in my 18" rainier arms match barrel, 69gr SMK's and 25 grains of varget shoots lights out already so excited to see what i can do with some 77's, im using LC brass , as i have a good amount of it and it seems to work well for me.

aklaunch
27 April 2014, 21:05
I have not yet found a way to get my Excel spread sheet document to post...

Will find another way around it.

Jerry R
28 April 2014, 06:50
If your printer has a "scan" feature, you can scan as a JPEG and then attach it as a picture. That's what I did for the chronograph data in the "Spring Shoot in Florida" thread.

My Excel Kung-fu is not the greatest, but I have tried a lot of different things - "Format as Table" - "All Borders" - differing line colors - "Save As" many different file types - they all copy/paste the same. The Bulletin Board Reply function strips all the neat stuff out and just jams the cells together with no regard to content. I believe some bulletin board versions consider the inclusion of formatting type data (XML or HTML) as a security risk; i.e., easy to bury a virus. So it removes all formatting, font, text size, color, borders, spacing, etc. You can change some of those formatting features using the format buttons on the top of the reply box, but you cannot recreate the cell sizes - so Excel still looks like plain text with no Row / Column organization. It's not Excel, it's the vBulletin software.

Cold bore miracle
29 April 2014, 07:32
I plan on making this one heck of a nice thread. And it will be extremely lengthy. I need to make a sequence that i follow in all reviews.

These were non cannelured bullets. I emailed Nosler to find out when they plan on releasing cannelured 77gr. bullets. The representative emailed back quickly and said they are working on it.

I have both cannelured and non cannelured Sierra bullets lying around waiting for the difference to be tested. They are likely last on the list as they are covered so in depth on the world wide web.

I will get another batch of Nosler's ready tomorrow and test them Monday and hopefully post the results shortly there after.

I am very impressed by the quality, accuracy and price of their bullets. The brass on the other hand is top dollar price wise. I plan to cover how many firings i get out of them before i get splitting, loose primer pockets or a loss of accuracy due to the case mouth not crimping the bullet tight enough.

Out of the bunch the Nosler 77's and the Hornady 75's are the cheapest.

I will post a Ballistic chart i made up on all of the bullets this evening. It has some very, very interesting data.

Thank you for your interest.

Kool post!

FYI, I just got some canalure'd Nosler 77's from midway USA so, they are out. Hope this helps ya.

Have fun and stay frosty.

aklaunch
29 April 2014, 21:33
It was a nice day today so i thought i would go out and get a little shooting done.

Unfortunately it was a bit windy out there and i forgot one of my key rests for setting the butt stock on. I had to make due with other components and feel my accuracy would have been a little bit better had i brought the proper equipment.

On the plus side, Velocity was outstanding today. So good that i am questioning my chronograph set up:) It seems like 22.5 grains of H4895 produced around 2500 fps with temps in the low 60's

I loaded up 0.5 more grains and am now showing an average of around 2,650 fps with another 0.5 grains to go. IMO this is very respectable out of an "18" barrel. As a matter of fact the Nosler reloading manual shows the max load of 23.5 grains clocking in at 2692 with a 20 inch barrel.

http://www.nosler.com/223-remington/

I have an 18 inch barrel with a half a grain to go and am only 42 fps slower. Obviously on a cold day these high flying numbers would not be near the same and the bullet would fly much lower in relation to the target.

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/Nosler2ndFire_zps983e0023.jpeg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/Nosler2ndFire_zps983e0023.jpeg.html)

mustangfreek
9 May 2014, 02:43
Nice , what powders are you working with again, and what one next...

Im following along as i just got some 77gr noslers to play with for my 18" RA mach barrel

aklaunch
9 May 2014, 18:22
Nice , what powders are you working with again, and what one next...

Im following along as i just got some 77gr noslers to play with for my 18" RA mach barrel

I tried Nosler's with Varget and gave up quickly with out posting the data. I can't seem to make Varget work in this rifle with any bullet brass combo i have tried.

H4895 was a big hit right out of the gate so i am going to stick with it for a while. Maybe exclusively for the Nosler test.

The book calls for TAC and RL-15

Unfortunately i am unable to obtain those types of powder.....

aklaunch
9 May 2014, 18:46
So....

I ended up finishing a box of WSR primers and tried a different batch. This new batch will be much better for testing as i have 1000 of them. I wanted to go up from 23.0 grains of H4895 but decided with a new lot of primers i better hold fast.

The next round of Nosler's i will up the ante.

This time i went out to the 200 yard range.

Unfortunately it was a bit windy and the target may have been moving around a bit?

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/200ydrange_zps953c049a.jpeg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/200ydrange_zps953c049a.jpeg.html)

I did not have to trim the Nosler brass after the first firing because it came extremely short. Doing case prep i sorted out the longest of the batch. Turns out there where 5 that where distinctly longer. They seemed run from 1.748-1.753. I loaded them and kept them separate. I think it is ironic and a coincidence but..... They where the 1st of the lot fired at the center of the target and posted by far the best group.

The wind was calm at the time and then picked up for the rest of the groups. I found when i got down to the target stand to pull my targets, that the board the target is stapled to was moving back and forth. The wind seemed to be blowing from right to left. Unfortunately no excuses. And i am not sure the target moved enough to result in groups this bad. The Nosler book says the H4895 powder gets more accurate until right at the max 223 pressure.

So far i have a good feeling using these components and will continue to test them. I really like the speed of the H4895 and the quality of the Nosler components.

http://i1369.photobucket.com/albums/ag213/pnwgf/Nosler200yard_zps2baef9c1.jpeg (http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/pnwgf/media/Nosler200yard_zps2baef9c1.jpeg.html)

The 2nd group i only loaded 4 rounds into the mag on accident. I got distracted B.S.'ing. The 1st 3 shots where great! I took a 20 minute break to talk to the range officer, popped the mag out to see if i had loaded 5 and fired the shot.

Huge flyer to the right. The wind had picked up and the rest of the target does not look that great at all. I wish i would have focused and got a few groups on paper before the wind came.

More testing will see how this load works when going a bit faster and in hopefully calm conditions.

I always shoot the center 1st. Then go clockwise from upper left around.

aklaunch
9 May 2014, 22:34
Anybody interested in the real reason a hand loaded bullet, case, powder & primer combination can be more accurate than factory ammo should watch part 7 of this series.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJUaiRIEduNXoal2_PkBZi0vDCIcEPxUn

Anybody interested in long range shooting should watch the entire series.

This guy has devoted a large portion of his life to give this information to us. It is great.

The long and the short of part 7 is barrel harmonics. It starts with the bullet leaving the barrel when the barrel is flat or on the center of its vibrational axis.

This can be a faster load with some components and a slow load with other components. I have been doing a lot of reloading and a lot of shooting behind the scenes here.... I am learning that you just cant buy the internets forums favorite powder and load it up and shoot one hole groups. Results will vary in every rifle. The type of gas block you have or how tight or loose your barrel nut is torqued could change the dynamics of the entire rifle. Different chambers and different contour barrels will definitely change it.

I have shot a bunch of Berger bullets with W748 and had STELLAR accuracy. The problem with my favorite target load is..... It passes my chronograph at 2400fps.

Even with the Berger bullets excellent B.C. this speed won't get me to the 600 yard line on a cold day in the winter. I had no luck with accuracy with this same bullet/brass combo using IMR XBR 8208 and Varget.

I will likely try H4895 with the Berger bullet/Norma brass combo.

Problem is....

The Berger manual calls max load at 22.9 grains for there unusually long high B.C. bullets. The Nosler bullet has a shorter length and a lower B.C. Their book calls max load (223 pressure) 23.5 grains.

Sierra 77gr SMK max H4895 is 23.6 grains. Ironically the Sierra bullet has a little higher B.C. than the Nosler and is a tad bit longer.

To throw a complete curve ball....

Lyman makes a stellar AR15 reloading manual. This new manual covers all the favorite calibers found chambered to the AR platform including sub sonic loads for the 300 black out.

They call for Remington brass and Rem 7.5 primers, SMK 77's and 24.5 grains of H4895.

That is a large difference in max load.

Trying to find the powder, primer, brass and bullet combo that gives you the accuracy AND velocity you require is a chore you must be willing to take on prior to committing to being a hand loader.

I have loaded the Berger's up to max with W748. Accuracy is ok. I have not choreographed it yet, but can tell accuracy is fading from sub MOA. to MOA+

I have also been loading the Hornady 75's with CFE 223 and W748. Both have great velocity. Especially the CFE 223. But accuracy is still a problem.

If the new reloader learns anything from me i would hope it would be that.... You have to work up very slowly to find the accuracy node. Jumping up a grain is just to much. Next you will find that the brass you use is shot out prior to finding that perfect harmonic set up.

From now on, instead of loading 25 bullets looking for five, 5 shot groups i will load 10 cartridges in increments of 2 tenths of a grain, looking for 2 5 shot groups.

Nosler, Norma, Lapua and Hornady brass is expensive! The case mouth starts loosing its grip after 4+ firings and then the whole science project is off.

Reloading is not cheaper or easier than buying factory ammo in bulk. Then there is the problem of finding components.

I enjoy it though.

aklaunch
9 May 2014, 22:48
tnoutdoors9 is another fellow who has very educational videos that are interesting and enjoyable to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEEADF6F5E8BD7455

mustangfreek
10 May 2014, 03:00
I so far have had stellar results from properly formed and guaged LC brass compared to a short brief experimentation of lapua brass, which for the price wasnt theilled about as i did not different for me in 223 and 308..

Atleast from my gun and selection of components as i know every gun/setup is different.

aklaunch
12 May 2014, 17:06
I am going to be away from my testing center for the next couple of weeks.

Before i left i did a quick rifle set up on one of my carbines.

It has a 16 inch barrel with a Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25 x 4 scope on it.

I normally only shoot 5.56 mil type ammo through it. Normally for plinking i use M855 and for comps that have steel targets i use the XM193

I ran 5 shots of each through the chronograph.

XM193 averaged around 3042fps at 200 feet above sea level with the temp around 53 degrees Fahrenheit. The altimeter setting was 30.19

This is federal ammo that is head-stamped LC 09. No NATO cross.

I used a 50 yard zero

Going back to my ballistic app it shows

+1.3 @ 100yds.
+0.0 @ 200yds.
-3.0 @ 250yds.
-7.9 @ 300yds.


Not bad for point of aim point of impact. This ammo is not very accurate though.

Same temps, pressure and altitude for the M855

M855 averaged 2931fps

+1.2 @ 100yds.
-0.3 @ 200yds.
-3.4 @ 250yds
-8.3 @ 300yds.

Both loads seem to need around 25 inches of hold over at 400 yards.

I have a decent amount of both types of ammo, and plan on only shooting those two lots this year. I wanted to figure out how many clicks up or down i would need to go on my scope when i want to switch over.

Turns out the M855 flew a couple of inches higher than the 55 grainers... (to my surprise)

So the recipe is 2 clicks up when switching over to the 55 gr. FMJ's

My scope has easy to read numbers. It works out to be: 0.9 for the 62's and 1.1 for the 55's.

I printed that out on a label maker and attached the label to my butt stock incase i forget.

The velocity spread on both the types of ammo was very minimal. Maybe 20-25fps variation max.

Now i can drill holes in the center of 50 yard targets with both types of ammo with an easy to remember couple of clicks either way.

IMO the rifle is now ready for what ever.

I stress about these little things i guess....

mustangfreek
27 June 2014, 02:22
Any more on this..