Optic for 14.5" AR

[jjl103]

I'm currently running a Vortex Sparc, which is doing what it advertised, but I'd like to upgrade to an H-1 or something else. My real concern is that the rds will not work effectively for semi-long range shooting. I'd like to have some kind of magnification, however I don't want to compromise being able to use the gun for close quarters.

I've considered a Vortex PST 1-4x24, EOtech with a Magnifier, and also a few other options (including just building/buying a completely different gun for long range applications).

Anyone have any advice on putting a 1-4x on my only AR? I just don't want to invest in something I am going to regret.

For more information, my current AR is about 7 pounds unloaded, and I'd like to save as much weight as I can (however this might not be the best gun for weight savings, as it has a billet receiver set and STR stock...). That turned me off on the EOtech solution for now. I plan on getting a Mini-SOCOM suppressor soon-ish on this rifle as well.

If I build another rifle (honestly, the question is when I build another, not if..) I probably go with something in the 18" range, in that case, it would be my longer distance rifle. I've even considered buying a decent bolt-action .308 instead of this. I am also pretty interested in doing an SBR, but I am waiting for whatever Spikes Tactical has coming out to make my decision on that. If the SBR is something I end up investing in, it would definitely take on that light-weight, close-quarter role.

I do have a few questions with the 1-4x. If I decided to go this route, would I be able to guarantee that the scope would keep its zero if I removed it and put on a rds? My plan would be to use a quick detach mount and be able to switch quickly between a RDS and the scope without losing zero for either one. I'm not a fan of mounting the RMR to the side, as this makes things a bit crowded.

[GOST]

For the price I strongly recommend a Burris MTAC. Very clear glass and illumination plenty bright enough for bright sun light.

[UWone77]

I have a few questions for you.

What's the purpose of your rifle? What do you consider semi-long range shooting? What is the Vortex Sparc not doing that an H1 will do ?

[jjl103]

I honestly built this rifle to be my only rifle, at least for now. I did not have a problem shooting at 25-50 meters, however, say I want to shoot out to 300 meters, which I have the ability to do on my property, I'd like to be able to place shots in a fairly tight grouping, which I don't see as a possibility with the large dot on the sparc (even on its lowest setting, it covers nearly the whole target at that distance). So I'd love a way to add in the ability to switch out a scope without having to re-zero.

So my "purpose" would really be everything at the moment. I have a good set of irons and the sparc hasn't let me down yet. I have near-future plans of shooting competitively once my job settles down, but for now, this gun serves as my primary defense weapon, my car gun, and pretty much anything else I need it to be (if I ever go hunting, I'd grab this rifle). Of course, if I ever start getting serious about shooting competitively, I will probably end up building a different rifle, or at least a different upper, but I'm not starting a new build anytime soon (so I think..).

As for my interest in the H1, I bought the Sparc as a temporary solution from a friend for $100. It was my first RDS, but has flaws. The buttons are in an odd place, and I don't like the position the power button is in. It definitely has features, but mine just isn't what I'd be looking for. On its lowest brightness, I can still see the dot fine, although it isn't exactly nice and round. As brightness increases, the glare from the dot fills the entire glass - so much to where on its brightest setting, I can barely see anything in the center of the glass. Its worse than anythign I've seen with an H-1 or T-1.

[gatordev]

How are you going to categorize this "tight grouping?" Is it going to be on paper? Or is it going to be on steel? If steel, a red dot is still plenty capable, as is a low mag sight like a 1-4 (or ACOG). If you're actually shooting for groups, you need to examine both how capable is your rifle is as well as what optic you can afford. A 8x or 10x would be plenty for that range.

All that said, if you're just looking to enjoy plinking at "minute of steel" accuracy, a nice 2 MOA dot or low power mag will do just fine for the fun factor, even with an off the rack 6920 and the like.

[jjl103]

I actually visited the gun shop today and tested an H-1. The dot on the vortex on its lowest setting is as bright if not brighter than the H-1 at 90%. The H-1 is quite manageable at a lower brightness level and the dot is much tighter. I also see less flare in the glass when on bright. I believe the dot size and flare had a lot to do with not being effective past 50 yards or so. Long story short, my vortex must have been a dud.

[rob_s]

If your only purpose in shooting at 300 yards is to make the tiniest groups that you and your rifle are capable of, the optic is irrelevant. Whether you're shooting with irons or a 10x optic, the smallest group you're capable of is the smallest group you're capable of. If you're not also going to buy a quality barrel and ammunition for this folly, folly is all it is.

[jjl103]

Not to call you out, but I didn't say that was my only purpose, actually said the opposite. I want my rifle to do as much as it can, including being able to shoot tight groups at 300 yards. Furthermore I have a quality barrel and I intend to buy good ammunition when I need it. I've pretty much decided that I'm at least replacing the vortex with an H-1 for now. The dot is much more crisp on the aimpoint. And in all honesty, I'm probably starting a new build soon anyway. I'll just go with an SS 18" barrel and use it for longer distant shooting. I can shoot decent enough between 50-100 with the vortex, and I think that will just improve when I replace it.

[GOST]

So jji103 what optics are you considering?

[UWone77]

Here's what I know about 1-4x24 optics. They are pretty good, but have a lot of limitations. I thought the 1-4x24 optic was the answer to what's the best overall optic, but after a lot of use, and spending a lot of money on various 1-4's, I kept coming back to Aimpoints. In fact over the years, I've gone through so many optics, that I have concluded there really is no best overall optic for every situation. With that, I've outfitted my duty gun and other subsequent guns for situations I would most likely face, and for me that's a red dot.

Why? I realize that most of my shooting is 100 yards or less. If I want to shoot for distance, I have other setups for that. With practice, you can easily hit minute of man targets at 300 yards with a red dot. However, you won't shoot small groups like you said. Do 1-4 optics have their place? Sure, which is why if you want to shoot small groups at 300 yards, you might want to just build up another upper with a magnified optic.

Another thing I considered is, with a red dot I can operate my backup sights if my optic fails. On a magnified optic, you'll have to take it off. Speaking of mounts, no mount will guarantee a return to zero. It can be off 1/2 to 1 MOA or more depending on the quality of the mount. Kind of annoying to keep re-zeroing after taking the optic off.

I think what rob was trying to tell you is... a magnified optic won't necessarily help you shoot small groups. Shooting the smallest groups will take a quality barrel, match ammo, a good trigger, and someone who knows how to use all of those.

[GOST]

I also run mostly Aimpoint H1's, but most of my playing around is under a 100 yards.

[FortTom]

Here's what I know about 1-4x24 optics. They are pretty good, but have a lot of limitations. I thought the 1-4x24 optic was the answer to what's the best overall optic, but after a lot of use, and spending a lot of money on various 1-4's, I kept coming back to Aimpoints. In fact over the years, I've gone through so many optics, that I have concluded there really is no best overall optic for every situation. With that, I've outfitted my duty gun and other subsequent guns for situations I would most likely face, and for me that's a red dot.

Why? I realize that most of my shooting is 100 yards or less. If I want to shoot for distance, I have other setups for that. With practice, you can easily hit minute of man targets at 300 yards with a red dot. However, you won't shoot small groups like you said. Do 1-4 optics have their place? Sure, which is why if you want to shoot small groups at 300 yards, you might want to just build up another upper with a magnified optic.

Another thing I considered is, with a red dot I can operate my backup sights if my optic fails. On a magnified optic, you'll have to take it off. Speaking of mounts, no mount will guarantee a return to zero. It can be off 1/2 to 1 MOA or more depending on the quality of the mount. Kind of annoying to keep re-zeroing after taking the optic off.

I think what rob was trying to tell you is... a magnified optic won't necessarily help you shoot small groups. Shooting the smallest groups will take a quality barrel, match ammo, a good trigger, and someone who knows how to use all of those.

JJ, I feel like UWone77 just read my mind. I have different rifles for different uses. However, you still have options. Buy QD mounts and as time and money allows, buy a red dot for self-defense, say you just got overrun by a herd of turtles. Then a decent scope, with a QD mount, like the Burris P.E.P.R. or several others for your long range shooting needs such as liberal zombies at 300 meters. Not sure how many rifles you own, but if you build or buy another, more suited to either a red dot or a scope, just switch them around to fit your needs. You probably don't need a 2K scope, unless money is no object to you, just buy the best that you can afford. No fogging and waterproof are two must haves, and they can be had over a wide range of budget constraints. Same for red dots.

Anyway, just another option you have available to you.

FT

[AR-10]

A variable power optic will add a lot of weight to your rifle.

I shoot out to 300 yards with an Aimpoint all the time with no magnifier, but I'm hitting a silhouette and don't care about small groups.

Zero the dot at your preferred distance and learn your holdovers.

Also if you end up getting an Aimpoint, a 4MOA will cover up the entire target at longer distances so you should probably consider a 2MOA dot.

I'm not sure if the H-1 is available with a 2MOA dot, I know the T-1 is.

[GOST]

The H-1 is also available in 2 MOA.

[jjl103]

I've pretty much set my mind on the H-1. After playing around with it at the gun shop, I don't really see why I'd keep the vortex. The Aimpoint has a more crisp dot, can be more dim as I need it (the vortex is just too bright for me, really), and the thin profile is definitely a plus.

As for the longer range applications, I've all but decided that an 18" upper is in my future. Not sure when I'll start it, but I have a few ideas about what I want to build (and additional parts I'd like to try that I decided against in my 14.5 build). In all honesty, I'll probably be doing a whole new lower as well. I'm still wrestling with the idea that I'd be better off (money wise) by going with a bolt action .308 and a nice optic, and that might very well be the case.

[DMViergever]

Sounds like you made a good choice. I have been running Eotech for a lot of years because I had a bad astigmatism and the Aimpoint dot just turned into a straight line for me. After getting my eyes fixed though I really can't think of any reason not to pick up and Aimpoint. They are clear, nice dots and even with the 4MOA dot we were putting down very nice groups at 100 just the other day.

Are you planning on the 4 or 2 MOA version?

[jjl103]

Definitely looking at the 2MOA version.

[tlw613sp]

The H-1 sounds like a good decision to me. And you already know I recommend doing the .308 bolt gun ;)

[FortTom]

Sounds like you made a good choice. I have been running Eotech for a lot of years because I had a bad astigmatism and the Aimpoint dot just turned into a straight line for me. After getting my eyes fixed though I really can't think of any reason not to pick up and Aimpoint. They are clear, nice dots and even with the 4MOA dot we were putting down very nice groups at 100 just the other day.

Are you planning on the 4 or 2 MOA version?

That's one reason, that it's really tough to recommend an optic for someone. Vision.. I've owned exactly one Eotech, and sold it, basically new, at a loss, because I couldn't use it. I had a cataract in one eye, that I eventually had removed and an artificial lens implanted. But at the time, both eyes were fighting each other for focus, and although I really don't know much about vision, the right eye seemed to dominate, and all I could see was a "starburst" pattern in the middle of the lens. Since had that fixed, but I'm partial to Aimpoints, and even then if I turn the dot intensity too high, the "dot" becomes something other than a dot.

A person can make a recommendation, as far as the intended usage of the various optic types, magnifier's, cross hair scopes, etc.. but can't see through the other's eyes. Case-in-point, my vision problems caused the exact opposite problems as DMV's
astigmatism.

FT

[tact]

I like my Browe.

[KevinBLC]

Just picked up an Aimpoint H1. Love this thing on the Bobro Mount. 99% of my shooting is 100 yards or less, so I find it pretty optimal.

[GOST]

How you liking the Bobro micro mount?