View Full Version : SBR Question
FortTom
7 April 2014, 21:04
I gave up on NFA stuff quite a while back, due to unwanted responsibility, travel restrictions, etc.. but have an opportunity, but not exactly clear on NFA law. A friend has an AR pistol. He wants to sell the 10.5" piston driven upper. Do I have to have a stamp if I'm in possession of the upper, even though it's not mounted to a lower? Common sense tells me yes, my paranoia of "accidently" breaking the law by ignorance is nudging at me also.
If so, can it go to an FFL sort of like an escrow until a stamp can be applied for and obtained?
Can someone tell me what's up with this?
Thanks in advance,
FT
Battle Cock
7 April 2014, 21:27
As far as I know, one can purchase and receive a a pistol upper in the mail without so much as going through an FFL. You just can't build a rifle with it until you get the proper forms approved.
Edit: with the recent BATFE clarification that the SB15 pistol brace can legally be used to shoulder fire an AR pistol, you may want to consider that before you put yourself through the hassle of building an NFA item.
One has to consider the likelihood that some ATF agent out on NFA patrol in your neighborhood will somehow decide to stop at your house in one of their many SBR dragnets. In other words, not likely. Vanishingly small, in fact. Practically impossible, even.
Don't assemble the rifle, keep the upper in your safe, get the stamp, then assemble.
Is there a lot of responsibility to owning an SBR? I have a couple, but I haven't noticed. As to travel, I have a 16 inch upper I can mount on the lowers if I need to take them out of state and don't want to take the trouble to file a 5320.20 (which is good for a year ).
I personally would tell him to keep the upper till you had a lower with a tax stamp.
RiverRat
8 April 2014, 07:48
Tom,
Here's my understanding.....with the understanding that I am not a lawyer an cannot offer legal council.
If you decide to purchase this upper and do not currently own any SBR-registered lowers, I recommend buying a brand new lower than has never been assembled into a rifle. Build it out with either a pistol buffer tube or a standard carbine tube with something like a Thorsden Custom buffer tube cover (http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/FRS15-RIFLE-STOCK/p/STANDARD-BUFFER-TUBE-COVER-KIT-x3020121.htm). Drop the upper on that lower and you will then have an compliant AR pistol configuration and should have no legal exposure (unless your state doesn't legally allow AR pistols).
After that, it is permissible for a lower to go pistol-rifle-pistol, but not rifle first then pistol, hence needing the virgin lower. It would be impossible to prove that any pistol built from a stripped lower did, in fact, get built "in the wrong order" at any point in its assembly. But IMO, there's no reason to deviate the ATF restrictions in this area, since you're talking about a felony in doing otherwise. As a rule, I install a pistol tube on every lower during the initial build, snap a photo for reference, then build whatever I intend after that. This allows me to switch all the lowers back and forth from rifle to pistol or back and I find some comfort in having evidence that I am in compliance.
After all that, I suggest not carrying that pistol around with spare unused stocks (though there's nothing wrong with transporting it around with a fully assembled 16" carbine, go figure). I believe (but am not positive) that all short uppers must have a corresponding pistol lower at all times (no spare/alternate uppers) for strict adherence to the law - unless you've gone the SBR route, then multiple uppers for a single lower is permitted.
If you don't want to go the pistol route, finding a friend or relative (who does not own an AR) to hold the upper for you while you wait on a stamp would seem prudent.
FortTom
8 April 2014, 08:15
One has to consider the likelihood that some ATF agent out on NFA patrol in your neighborhood will somehow decide to stop at your house in one of their many SBR dragnets. In other words, not likely. Vanishingly small, in fact. Practically impossible, even. .
Hmac, although I certainly appreciate you taking your time to help clarify the NFA laws, I don't decide if I want to commit a felony or not, based on the likelihood of getting or not getting caught. [:D] I've heard prison food sucks.
FT
FortTom
8 April 2014, 08:19
Tom,
Here's my understanding.....with the understanding that I am not a lawyer an cannot offer legal council.
If you decide to purchase this upper and do not currently own any SBR-registered lowers, I recommend buying a brand new lower than has never been assembled into a rifle. Build it out with either a pistol buffer tube or a standard carbine tube with something like a Thorsden Custom buffer tube cover (http://www.thordsencustoms.com/shop/FRS15-RIFLE-STOCK/p/STANDARD-BUFFER-TUBE-COVER-KIT-x3020121.htm). Drop the upper on that lower and you will then have an compliant AR pistol configuration and should have no legal exposure (unless your state doesn't legally allow AR pistols).
After that, it is permissible for a lower to go pistol-rifle-pistol, but not rifle first then pistol, hence needing the virgin lower. It would be impossible to prove that any pistol built from a stripped lower did, in fact, get built "in the wrong order" at any point in its assembly. But IMO, there's no reason to deviate the ATF restrictions in this area, since you're talking about a felony in doing otherwise. As a rule, I install a pistol tube on every lower during the initial build, snap a photo for reference, then build whatever I intend after that. This allows me to switch all the lowers back and forth from rifle to pistol or back and I find some comfort in having evidence that I am in compliance.
After all that, I suggest not carrying that pistol around with spare unused stocks (though there's nothing wrong with transporting it around with a fully assembled 16" carbine, go figure). I believe (but am not positive) that all short uppers must have a corresponding pistol lower at all times (no spare/alternate uppers) for strict adherence to the law - unless you've gone the SBR route, then multiple uppers for a single lower is permitted.
If you don't want to go the pistol route, finding a friend or relative (who does not own an AR) to hold the upper for you while you wait on a stamp would seem prudent.
Thanks, I think that's pretty much what my friend was trying to tell me, but all of the "pistol vs. rifle vs. pistol" rules had my head kind of spinning. I'd like to see it (applicable law) in print, but I suppose I could have him sell it to a friend who does not own an AR, while I apply for the stamp.
I'm curious, though, if it would fall under the same rules as ordering a can, and having to wait for delivery while it clears ATF "jail"?
Thanks,
FT
Another option may be to build up a pistol lower and then register THAT lower as an SBR. It would allow you to legally possess and shoot the short upper (sans stock) until your stamp was approved.
If I didn't already have a registered SBR lower, and was looking to get into the NFA game, this is the route that I would go.
MoxyDave
8 April 2014, 10:21
I gave up on NFA stuff quite a while back, due to unwanted responsibility, travel restrictions, etc.. but have an opportunity, but not exactly clear on NFA law. A friend has an AR pistol. He wants to sell the 10.5" piston driven upper. Do I have to have a stamp if I'm in possession of the upper, even though it's not mounted to a lower? Common sense tells me yes, my paranoia of "accidently" breaking the law by ignorance is nudging at me also.
If so, can it go to an FFL sort of like an escrow until a stamp can be applied for and obtained?
Assuming you have a rifle lower available, and do not own a pistol or SBR lower, you could be charged with "constructive intent". The easiest way to stay compliant with the law is to install it on a pistol lower. Cheap and easy way to stay legit with all the stupid laws we have in place.
For me it's worth the peace of mind.
Once you have an SBR lower you can own as many uppers for it as you'd like, at least that is my interpretation of the law.
You might want to try the SB15 pistol brace and see if that works for you; NFA items are kind of a pain in the ass.
FortTom
8 April 2014, 13:23
Yes, MD, they are kind of a pain in the ass. Pretty much the reason I quit messing with NFA stuff altogether. Plus a lot of the regulations are sort of ambiguous, such as your "constructive intent" example.
I think I'll just blow the whole thing off. He won't have any trouble selling it without me.
Thanks,
FT
Smac61
10 April 2014, 18:59
Does it matter if you build a stripped lower into a pistol if its already been submitted for SBR? I have one in the pipe that I would like to "pistol" while I wait...
UWone77
10 April 2014, 19:25
Does it matter if you build a stripped lower into a pistol if its already been submitted for SBR? I have one in the pipe that I would like to "pistol" while I wait...
That's fine.
You can turn a pistol into a rifle, but not the other way around.
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