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Pyzik
20 August 2014, 06:53
I've got more than a couple friends who've been/are in the military.

One of which I invited to a Carbine class I'm attending in the next couple weeks. Ever since the invite back in April he's tried to get me to let him "show me everything I need to know". This is the same friend who keeps telling me I need to ditch my "long" barrel (14.5) and get a 10.5"...

He's not the first MIL friend either to snub civilian training courses.

I just keep saying I prefer formal training and explain that just 'cause the MIL does it, doesn't mean it's the best.

Same goes for modular rails. I've had a couple friends laugh at it and ask why I didn't get a quad rail. [crazy]

Guess this turned into a rant too... Haha.
Anyone else run into this?

FortTom
20 August 2014, 08:24
I can't speak for your friend, but a lot of MIL training is done by civilians, contractors. I once read on some forum that all mil were victims of "institutionalized" training. What bull shit. Another thing you might ask your civilian trainers, is how much of their "continuing" training was done under fire? Then ask your military trainers the exact same thing. Many civilian trainers got their training in the military. Many just went to a class, like you're planning on, and then another and another and so on, until they were deemed by some AR deity as an expert, ready to raise you to the next level, for a fee.

What did your friends do in the Mil? Diesel mechanics, or Delta force? Me, I'd take D-F over civilians any day, as well as a large number of other military trained individuals, over someone who got their diploma on the local firing range. In other words, I'd personally want to know the credentials of both parties, then choose. That civilian trainer may be a former S.E.A.L., on the other hand his most tactical skills may have only been shooting through holes in plywood at paper targets at the range. I wouldn't discount one over the other without knowing their background.[:)]

Pyzik
20 August 2014, 08:33
Well, the biggest offender mentioned above is Airborne Army Reserves. No deployment.

The other one who wants to "teach me" is my cousin was Army Infantry. One tour to Afghanistan with action.
I do trust some things he says.

Computalotapus
20 August 2014, 09:19
There is a difference between what military personnel do versus what LEO do versus what a civilian will do. The applications of firearms training is completely different for the 3 sectors. I personally have military training as Security Police in the USAF we go through some basic LEO training then headed up to Fort Dix, NJ for ABGD ( Air Base Ground Defense ) training with the Army. Many years later while I lived in California I had a very good friend of mine who is CHP ask me to come down and do some Active Shooter training with them in Sacramento. I got to watch them do practice movements beforehand and the style of training is completely different than what I learned in the military. I was able to setup and throw some curve balls at them but they recovered way faster than I expected and put me in a hurt box real quick. As I civilian I see that my training will be completely different than that of military and LEO. Clearly my mindset now is to protect myself, loves ones, and innocent people within a certain vicinity. As a civilian I want to disengage myself and others from a threat as quickly as possible back pedal/retreat if possible and let the professionals handle it from there. My number one goal is to get myself and others away from the threat first, if that isn't possible I want to make the threat retreat while I hold a defensive position. As a civilian I do not want to be the person advancing. Let LEO handle that they have a city/county/state behind them that handles the legal issues that come up after an incident. Lethal force is always a very last ditch resort in an incident for civilians. For military and leo they require training that has them more geared to neutralizing a threat or eliminating it all together.

Seek training that is most likely going to reflect what you will come in contact with. Personally if you don't see yourself going to war with a combat unit to engage other combat units there is no need for you to go to that type of training. If you do not see yourself responding to a hostage situation at a bank robbery with fellow swat members then there is no need for you to go to that type of training. If the threat that you are most likely going to encounter going to be a armed home invasion from one to three dirtbags then that is what you should learn how to be prepared for, carjackers then you should take a vehicle class train to know what effect shooting through a windshield or car door glass is going to do, active shooter at the mall take those classes.

I volunteer for active shooter training with the local PD and SD along with a couple Campus PD's, even playing the bad guy or hostage you can take away so much information from them. MDFI in our area offers classes for home defense training and kill houses mocked up like living rooms and bed rooms to learn how to find adequate cover and concealment and where to hold a defensive position in your own home.

The only thing I see a civilian taking from a military or leo class is getting trigger time and learning different ways to manipulate the weapon system with a different mindset.

Just my .02 cents

Pyzik
20 August 2014, 09:25
There is a difference between what military personnel do versus what LEO do versus what a civilian will do. The applications of firearms training is completely different for the 3 sectors. I personally have military training as Security Police in the USAF we go through some basic LEO training then headed up to Fort Dix, NJ for ABGD ( Air Base Ground Defense ) training with the Army. Many years later while I lived in California I had a very good friend of mine who is CHP ask me to come down and do some Active Shooter training with them in Sacramento. I got to watch them do practice movements beforehand and the style of training is completely different than what I learned in the military. I was able to setup and throw some curve balls at them but they recovered way faster than I expected and put me in a hurt box real quick. As I civilian I see that my training will be completely different than that of military and LEO. Clearly my mindset now is to protect myself, loves ones, and innocent people within a certain vicinity. As a civilian I want to disengage myself and others from a threat as quickly as possible back pedal/retreat if possible and let the professionals handle it from there. My number one goal is to get myself and others away from the threat first, if that isn't possible I want to make the threat retreat while I hold a defensive position. As a civilian I do not want to be the person advancing. Let LEO handle that they have a city/county/state behind them that handles the legal issues that come up after an incident. Lethal force is always a very last ditch resort in an incident for civilians. For military and leo they require training that has them more geared to neutralizing a threat or eliminating it all together.

Seek training that is most likely going to reflect what you will come in contact with. Personally if you don't see yourself going to war with a combat unit to engage other combat units there is no need for you to go to that type of training. If you do not see yourself responding to a hostage situation at a bank robbery with fellow swat members then there is no need for you to go to that type of training. If the threat that you are most likely going to encounter going to be a armed home invasion from one to three dirtbags then that is what you should learn how to be prepared for, carjackers then you should take a vehicle class train to know what effect shooting through a windshield or car door glass is going to do, active shooter at the mall take those classes.

I volunteer for active shooter training with the local PD and SD along with a couple Campus PD's, even playing the bad guy or hostage you can take away so much information from them. MDFI in our area offers classes for home defense training and kill houses mocked up like living rooms and bed rooms to learn how to find adequate cover and concealment and where to hold a defensive position in your own home.

The only thing I see a civilian taking from a military or leo class is getting trigger time and learning different ways to manipulate the weapon system with a different mindset.

Just my .02 cents
Great info! That's pretty much what I was getting at. Training that would be useful to me is VERY different than what someone heading off to a warzone would want.

Class coming up is simple Carbine Foundation. Realistically it's for me to handle and function a carbine better moreso than it is for me to use it defensively. My EDC is still my "go to" for most situations.
Pistol defense from a vehicle, a shoot house class and low light pistol are my next classes I would like to take.

UWone77
20 August 2014, 10:09
I think like anything else, there needs to be relevant context on what kind of training/trainer you're looking for. If I was looking for combat training, then yes, I might seek out strictly military background individuals who have not only training background but actual combat experience. On a local board I frequent, there was a group of guys advertising active shooter training, "all instructors are US military veterans." However, when asked about their specific background all we heard were crickets. Just because you're a military veteran doesn't make you a gunfighter, or expert in weapons and tactics. Were these guys Rangers or Cooks? What made them instructors? Did they actually get a certifications in firearms instruction, attend instructor development classes? Or one day they woke up to 5000 YouTube subscribers and decided, I'm now an instructor.

Same goes for LE instructors. Were these guys actually cops that worked the road, knew what it was like to encounter bad guys on random calls and traffic stops? Or were they 20 year administrators that didn't even wear holsters with retention or had their guns in the trunk so long, the bolts rusted shut on their patrol rifles?

Anyhow, the retired military guys I work and worked with never had the you haven't trained, until you've trained with me attitude. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact they were older, wiser, retired NCO's, and realized my way is just one way. There are many other ways, but I'm going to show you these ways and you can decide what is the best, discard the rest.

It's also a challenge to find someone that's not only a good shooter, but at the same time a good instructor. Those 2 qualities don't always come together in 1 person.

rob_s
20 August 2014, 12:27
Comput's post is spot on. However...

Shooting is shooting. If you don't have the fundamentals of shooting down pat, all the room clearing, "under fire", Delta force training in the world isn't going to do much for you. I find that a lot of guys want to jump right in to training with an instructor that has a bunch of scalps hanging from his belt without (A) knowing which end of the gun the bullets come out of first and (2) realizing that what Delta does likely has little to nothing to do with what Joe Accountant in Oxnard needs or is doing.

I've had a whole bunch of military friends from a variety of jobs that have taken "civilian" classes and come away with the reaction "man, I with the military had taught me half that much".

Be careful of anyone that tells you "civilian" classes are, across the board, not as good as "military" classes. They likely have no experience with the former and limited experience with the latter, and are quite likely to be so resistant to being confronted with the realization that they don't know what they don't know to make their opinions... less valid.

I've learned more about shooting from a jazz musician than I ever did from any former Tier 1 guys. and I've trained with more than a few.

camomike
20 August 2014, 12:28
As a civilian, I learned to shoot from my father. He shot competitive pistol for the USMC. Single shot, push a patch, single shot, repeat. I learned steadiness and control from him. About three years ago I went shooting with a Ranger friend-Current LEO. Ran my target out to 35 yards, kept a15-20 inch ring on a silhouette. My buddy asked why I was doing it and I replied I was keeping my skills sharp. He walked over and ran my target in to 3 yards. Had me drop 3 rounds as fast as I could. He told me most civilian/HD fire exchanges happen at this range or inside, and about that fast. Changed my whole outlook on training. Comp hit it right on the head in my mind. Practice hard for the most likely. I'll never look free training/advice in the mouth. But then again, I'm versed enough to know what is going to help me, and what is hog wash. YMMV

FortTom
20 August 2014, 13:06
I think like anything else, there needs to be relevant context on what kind of training/trainer you're looking for. If I was looking for combat training, then yes, I might seek out strictly military background individuals who have not only training background but actual combat experience. On a local board I frequent, there was a group of guys advertising active shooter training, "all instructors are US military veterans." However, when asked about their specific background all we heard were crickets. Just because you're a military veteran doesn't make you a gunfighter, or expert in weapons and tactics. Were these guys Rangers or Cooks? What made them instructors? Did they actually get a certifications in firearms instruction, attend instructor development classes? Or one day they woke up to 5000 YouTube subscribers and decided, I'm now an instructor.

Same goes for LE instructors. Were these guys actually cops that worked the road, knew what it was like to encounter bad guys on random calls and traffic stops? Or were they 20 year administrators that didn't even wear holsters with retention or had their guns in the trunk so long, the bolts rusted shut on their patrol rifles?

Anyhow, the retired military guys I work and worked with never had the you haven't trained, until you've trained with me attitude. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact they were older, wiser, retired NCO's, and realized my way is just one way. There are many other ways, but I'm going to show you these ways and you can decide what is the best, discard the rest.

It's also a challenge to find someone that's not only a good shooter, but at the same time a good instructor. Those 2 qualities don't always come together in 1 person.

Very good advice. Same with Comp's post too. A SWAT team member is very likely not going to have the exact same skills as a war fighter, and vice versa. I've learned things from civilian classes, things I wouldn't have thought much about, actually. But, I don't view "combat" as 20 Marines fighting Taliban for control of a vital position. In my mind, "combat", in it's most simple definition, can just be two guys fighting it out, guns, fists, or squirt guns. I would try to incorporate as many of those skills from all different disciplines, and blend them together, toss out what doesn't or never will work for you, and practice the rest.

It doesn't hurt repeating, but a team from the Coast Guard, boarding a vessel full of cocaine, and armed bad guys who have pre-determined that they're not going to prison, is going to be different than the needs of a couple of guys sitting in a tree line, looking for bad guys and calling in air strikes, the latter are going to be more concerned about not getting caught, and fighting to a extraction point, than the CG guy's whose ass hairs are on full alert.

These types of discussions always seem to get watered down to 1 or 2 things. Which style of fighting is going to be most useful to you, and don't worry about this or that, you'll never need it. To me, except for the far fetched, all of it's worth knowing at least some of. There is a lot of overlap in the different disciplines. Personally, that's what I'd go for. But basically, it boils down to the environment as in a delicate situation in a housing complex, or having 100 militia men in the mountains of Idaho, that have gone completely psycho and have declared war on all humanity. Same people agencies fighting, 2 very different fights.[:)]

Computalotapus
20 August 2014, 13:23
A lot of people will train a lot but make sure you take the time to try and mentally prepare yourself as well. Solid training makes up a big portion of walking away but being mentally prepared can mean the difference of living another day or becoming the meat filling in a black bag burrito.

FortTom
20 August 2014, 13:54
A lot of people will train a lot but make sure you take the time to try and mentally prepare yourself as well. Solid training makes up a big portion of walking away but being mentally prepared can mean the difference of living another day or becoming the meat filling in a black bag burrito.

On that exact same note, I'd like to add, that gun fighting skills, no matter what you think you need or don't need, should be as much about not getting shot, as they are about shooting the bad guys. Funny, but I rarely if ever see that being mentioned. Must be the "black bag burrito" that slapped me back awake.[:)]

FT

UWone77
21 August 2014, 09:16
Pyzik, you never said if you friend was actually an instructor. Is he? Or just someone who wanted to actually show you everything he knew?

Pyzik
21 August 2014, 09:20
Pyzik, you never said if you friend was actually an instructor. Is he? Or just someone who wanted to actually show you everything he knew?

No. I just have the one friend and my cousin that, every time I bring up formal training try to tell me what a waste it would be since they could show me everything the Army showed them.

To Computalotapus, not getting shot at in the first place is really my top priority! Haha

schambers
21 August 2014, 09:44
I've recieved training from civilians and military personnel and at this point, I've come to the conclusion that a job title doesn't realy mean much. I've met commo techs and clerks that can outperform infantry guys and day of the week. In my opinion, it all comes down to past experiences and an individual's motivation to learn new skills and apply them.

The unfortunate thing about the military is that the average Soldier gets very little trigger time with their assigned weapons and as we all know, shooting is a perishable skill. I think the only time I go out of my way to give shooting advice is when I'm shooting with innexperienced Soldiers and its obvious that they don't know what they are doing. At that point we have an improvised class for kids that can't shoot good and want to do other good stuff too.

As far as civilians go, in the past, my friends have asked me to show them high speed stuff and we sometimes progresses to the point where I can help them work out kinks with things like draw, presentation, transitions etc. Most of the time though, just like with Soldiers, it becomes a lesson in emphasizing basic fundamentals, pointing out bad habits, troubleshooting gear placement and working on stance.

After thinking about it for a while, I would say the majority of the training I have gone through focuses on moving and communicating with a team. Something thats kind of hard to do on a standard range.

At this point the only peole I'm really skeptical of are those that try to offer me free advice.

Fathom_Arms
18 September 2014, 16:43
I say train with him.... It may turn into this! Contact!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L4HRJjt_E

velocity2006
18 September 2014, 16:54
On that exact same note, I'd like to add, that gun fighting skills, no matter what you think you need or don't need, should be as much about not getting shot, as they are about shooting the bad guys. Funny, but I rarely if ever see that being mentioned. Must be the "black bag burrito" that slapped me back awake.[:)]

FT

The first thing my Army buddy (long time veteran, and chl instructor) tought me for my CHL permit was if you can avoid the situation, above all else try to do so first, before engagement. Smartest piece of advise anyone could give someone training for defense. Mil/Leo training is another story on the other hand because there is some offensive strategy that comes into play (although I am sure everyone would prefer to avoid conflict, that is just not the way of the world).

FortTom
18 September 2014, 17:38
Although you are correct, that wasn't quite what I had in mind. I was referring to a multitude of ways to use cover, and other techniques, to avoid getting shot, when the fight has already started, and you just can't avoid it. I got a lot of that in the military, and some pretty good stuff in a civilian training course, but mostly I hear/see all offense and no defense, if that makes more sense. As much as some of us would rather think that we could always be pinning our "targets" down with superior shooting skills, some of those targets may be equally if not more experienced than ourselves. Then a person really ought to know multiple ways to "duck" out of the possible or probable flight path of a bullet.

FT[BD]

avtech850
1 October 2014, 14:39
Mother of god! I want to find that guy and buy him a case of bush lite and watch the hilarity begin!