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UWone77
10 September 2014, 15:01
So this isn't a traditional "custom" build but I thought I'd post it here.

Today, I got an email from the department telling me in late November I would have to switch my patrol rifle to an issued gun, the Smith and Wesson M&P15. I don't think this is even the MOE version. This wasn't a request but a directive. I have to change over.

So the gun comes with basically nothing, no light, no red dot, no anything. If we want accessories, we have to buy them ourselves. They have to be from an approved list, and one of the armorers will put it on. However the accessories can not be permanent. So, I'm stuck with drop in handguards, sling attachments that don't involve replacing the end plate, and things of that nature.

For the last ... oh I don't know almost 5 years, I've been using a personally owned Noveske. I've had zero issues with the gun, and it worked well for me. I'm going to miss my patrol rifle. The rifle started life as a Stock Skinny MOE version. The gun has worked well for me, and it's been as accurate as you'd expect from a CL-Noveske Barrel. The Centurion Arms C4 Cutout Rail is a little old-school-ish with the quad rail, but it's worked well and has a lot of dings and anodizing missing getting beat up from a class or two. The only thing I had always been meaning to swap out was the Surefire M952V for a Scout Light.

Here's a picture Stick took for me last year:


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/1621_619119174775166_1108159023_n_zps60728188.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/1621_619119174775166_1108159023_n_zps60728188.jpg. html)


I'll have to give it some thought on what kind of accesssories I will require to bring a Stock M&P15 up to snuff with a white light, red dot, and quality sling.

Does anyone even make 7" Drop in Rails anymore? I'm going to look into a KAC RAS. Aimpoint Optic, and probably a Surefire Scout.

Suggestions welcome, and I'll update this later on when I know more.

Thompson
10 September 2014, 15:11
Any ideas for the reason behind the switch to the M&P 15?

UWone77
10 September 2014, 15:15
Any ideas for the reason behind the switch to the M&P 15?

The department is going with switching everyone. Before they had the money to buy rifles, you didn't have to carry a rifle, or you could go with an older Ruger Mini.

Thompson
10 September 2014, 15:40
Oh ok - so it seems like standardization across the board then.

browcs
10 September 2014, 15:56
Sucks you have to give up what isn't "broken," but frankly, you still have better leeway than I do....my office's carbine is a Colt 6920 with a Surefire rail, Surefire M952, Eotech 512, VFG, and single-point sling....I removed the M952 and added an X300U; other than the light, I can't change anything to it.

Drop in rail? My favorite is still the Vltor CASV-EL. I still have a Daniel Defense Omega 7.0 on an LMT upper.

FortTom
10 September 2014, 16:09
Sucks you have to give up what isn't "broken," but frankly, you still have better leeway than I do....my office's carbine is a Colt 6920 with a Surefire rail, Surefire M952, Eotech 512, VFG, and single-point sling....I removed the M952 and added an X300U; other than the light, I can't change anything to it.

Drop in rail? My favorite is still the Vltor CASV-EL. I still have a Daniel Defense Omega 7.0 on an LMT upper.
If I'm reading you correctly, at least you didn't have to buy the light and Eotech. That really sucks that LEO's, such as in UW's case has to buy their own accessories. Is that common? I think that's B.S. If cops defend the taxpayers, taxpayers foot the bill, or that's the way it should be. Never had to buy "accessories" in the MIL. Same concept.

FT

Uffdaphil
10 September 2014, 16:24
DD EZ Car rail is drop in. https://danieldefense.com/rail-systems/ez-car-7-0-carbine.html

I think I would prefer the new Magpul M-LOK with the extended handguard like the C4.
http://store.magpul.com/product/MAG538/MOE-SL

Computalotapus
10 September 2014, 16:38
I don't have any accessory suggestions for you but I will say this about my M&P...it will eat any ammo you feed it. I have had zero issues even with crappy Herbert ammo ($5 for box of 20, im talking this stuff makes wolf look like pristine top shelf ammo).
Sent from my Windows Phone 8.1

Gaspipeshooter
10 September 2014, 17:38
Does anyone even make 7" Drop in Rails anymore?

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1030

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1204

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1299

UWone77
10 September 2014, 18:19
http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1030

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1204

http://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1299

Thanks for the links. You know... I never even thought about MI still producing drop ins...

Gaspipeshooter
10 September 2014, 19:03
Thanks for the links. You know... I never even thought about MI still producing drop ins...

You are welcome. I'm an MI fan and I've been spending a lot of time on their website agonizing over what to do with my Adams Arms piston system pistol build, so I am intimately familiar with their product lineup.

browcs
10 September 2014, 19:13
If I'm reading you correctly, at least you didn't have to buy the light and Eotech. That really sucks that LEO's, such as in UW's case has to buy their own accessories. Is that common? I think that's B.S. If cops defend the taxpayers, taxpayers foot the bill, or that's the way it should be. Never had to buy "accessories" in the MIL. Same concept.

FT

Yes...you read it right. Everything is agency-owned; I only swapped the weaponlight to get something smaller with more power and throw; they can always tell me to remove it since it wasn't provided. The bad thing is that my work rifle is set up differently from my personal rifles.

Not common for Fed LE agencies which is whom I can speak for.....they provide it all in most cases.

camomike
10 September 2014, 21:23
Have you put any thought into the Troy Delta or Charlie? Lets you keep the delta ring and grip cap in place plus still gives you real estate in front of the sight post; If that's what you were looking for. Really sucks they won't let you run what you had.

DutyUse
12 September 2014, 01:39
That noveske was sexy, sucks about the policy shift.

alpha.kilo
18 September 2014, 13:51
Yeah, but the first time you get into a shooting you will be glad you were using the agency's rifle. Having your $3K Noveske is sitting in evidence for 3 years would suck even more.

WHSmithIV
18 September 2014, 13:59
Hmm... at least you keep your rifle I'm guessing. As for drop in rails, yes, Midwest Industries has 7" drop in's. You can put rails on 7" Magpul handguards. FAB Defense, Surefire and Daniel Defense also have 7" drop in quad rails.

Pyzik
18 September 2014, 14:06
Does anyone even make 7" Drop in Rails anymore? I'm going to look into a KAC RAS. Aimpoint Optic, and probably a Surefire Scout.

Suggestions welcome, and I'll update this later on when I know more.

Wow, that sucks hard.

Samson makes a STAR-CX that is a drop in. Rainier was offering them but I don't see them on their site anymore.
http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SM&Product_Code=STAR-CX&Category_Code=STAR

WHSmithIV
18 September 2014, 14:56
Wow, that sucks hard.

Samson makes a STAR-CX that is a drop in. Rainier was offering them but I don't see them on their site anymore.
http://www.samson-mfg.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SM&Product_Code=STAR-CX&Category_Code=STAR

Open up Gunstruction and just start a new build and choose the Handguard. You can select the sort by length. Don't know if the dept. patrol rifle is going to have an A2 sight, but if it does you might want to go with a quad rail with a cutout for the sight and just leave it in place. It won't interfere with a red dot but you might need to put a red dot on a riser depending on which sight it is.

Do let us know how it works out for you. I do also agree that it sucks that they are doing so, on the other hand though, it is probably better that all the patrol rifles are dept. patrol rifles rather than ones officers have as their own. As someone else pointed out - if it has to get used and then has to become evidence for ballistics verification etc. then it's better that it's a dept. rifle than your own. That way at least they can issue you another one until they put that one back in service. If I were a LEO (and I did some time in the Navy as Shore Patrol), I'd sure hate to have my own rifle locked up until they got around to handing it back. If it was needed as evidence in a court proceeding before getting it back for a situation of a perfectly legitimate use of it, that could certainly take a while.

browcs
18 September 2014, 17:58
Yeah, but the first time you get into a shooting you will be glad you were using the agency's rifle. Having your $3K Noveske is sitting in evidence for 3 years would suck even more.

Excellent point.

UWone77
18 September 2014, 18:28
Yeah, but the first time you get into a shooting you will be glad you were using the agency's rifle. Having your $3K Noveske is sitting in evidence for 3 years would suck even more.

For most I would agree. If that happened, I'd just grab another Noveske of the bakers dozen out of the safe. [:D]

Seriously, I agree with what you're saying. However, if I got into a shooting, having a 3k Noveske Rifle in an evidence locker for a few years is the least of my concern.

UWone77
13 December 2014, 10:05
So I finally transitioned over to a Smith and Wesson M&P15 yesterday. The class was 1 day, and I shot about 500-600 rounds total for the day. The primary goal of the class was to zero our optics, back up sights, put some rounds down range to ensure it was running, a few drills, and then a qualification. Here's a brief summary:

I decided to go with all new accessories, since my previous patrol rifle was set up perfectly for me. It'll be relegated to the HD gun now. This was a basic M&P15 MOE. As you guessed, it came with a MOE Stock, MOE Grip, and MOE Handguards. The department also includes a Vickers 2 point sling. I thought the setup on the sling was hokey, as they used the FSB with a GG&G mount. My preference would be a QD attachment. Anyhow, before there was any shooting done we had a chance to add our approved accessories first. I added the following:

Knights Armament 7" RAS Rail
Knights Armament Foregrip
Aimpoint PRO
Troy Industries Rear Sight

No Light you say? Yes, it's true. I haven't decided on a light yet, will probably use the Arisaka Scout Body down the road, but for now I'm working dayshift, so the light isn't a big deal right now. At the time I considered also including a Battle Arms Development BAD-ASS and a Raptor. However, I wanted to run the gun first, and see how I felt about dumping another $120+ of my own money into a department gun.

When it came to the malfunction drills, after an hour my hands were tired, and my fingers hurt. The standard milspec charging handle for a lefty like me sucks. Repeated malfunctions every 3rd round really makes you appreciate bigger latches. I also had to mortar my gun several times, and since it was also muddy and wet, my hands slipped off of the charging handle several times.

During lunch, I drove to the house and grabbed a Raptor and a BCM Mod 0 Comp.

Summary:

I actually enjoyed shooting the gun, but a few things reminded me that S&W makes a mediocre gun. The gun shot noticeably harder than say a mid-length. I'm guessing the gun is slightly overgassed, the carbine buffer probably didn't help either. The BCG was still an AR15, not F/A. Otherwise, it looked like any other $750 off the rack AR.

Larger latches on a charging handle are a must for me.

Guys running red dots were noticeably faster in acquiring their targets and engaging. Shooting when it turned dark, was a challenge for guys using the carry handle, FSB.

The A2 Birdcage is the most underrated $10 item.

Total Cost of accessories: $660

Pictures of the gun, and more thoughts later.

alamo5000
13 December 2014, 10:23
That really sucks that LEO's, such as in UW's case has to buy their own accessories.

On one hand yes, on the other, it SCREAMS 'tax deduction'.

And what do they know that you don't need 26 different versions of optics and 8 suppressors for your 'business operations' all to be written off of your taxes....

Thermal optics and NV here we come!!

UWone77
13 December 2014, 10:25
Tax deductions for non-reimbursed equipment is pretty overrated. Anything over 2% of your adjusted gross income... that's a high threshold.

alamo5000
13 December 2014, 10:32
Seriously, I agree with what you're saying. However, if I got into a shooting, having a 3k Noveske Rifle in an evidence locker for a few years is the least of my concern.

BINGO! LOL

MonkeyBomb
13 December 2014, 11:26
Last time I thought about taking a tax deduction for work gear it actually raised my paid taxes. I don't bother anymore. I just suck it up and know it goes with me when I leave.

GOST
13 December 2014, 11:27
I have to say that your old duty rifle is probably my favorite of your rifles I've seen pics of.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/1621_619119174775166_1108159023_n_zps60728188.jpg

Pyzik
13 December 2014, 11:35
I have to say that your old duty rifle is probably my favorite of your rifles I've seen pics of.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/1621_619119174775166_1108159023_n_zps60728188.jpg
Yeah, that beats the S&W

Thompson
13 December 2014, 12:00
I have to say that your old duty rifle is probably my favorite of your rifles I've seen pics of.
You know it! But I'm still interested to see the MOE rifle.

UW - what color furniture is the MOE? Did you do another two-tone like the Noveske?

WHSmithIV
13 December 2014, 14:00
I have an honest question for you LEO's. I don't know where you all live so I'm curious. Why do your police departments have you having patrol rifles? I know our Sheriff and our deputies all personally. They carry their Glocks of course. They have AR's - I shoot with them. They don't carry the AR's in their patrol pickups. Could some of you who do have patrol rifles let me know why your police departments have you do so? I live in the middle of nowhere in the Rocky Mountains on Idaho. So, it's basically a zero crime area. Everyone here has guns anyway. What situation would have you using your patrol rifle?

I lived overseas for 23 years. I do remember that the police officers in Boston had shotguns in a rack in their cars.

I know you LEO's face a lot of difficult challenges every time you go on shift. You have my deepest respect for what you do. My only law enforcement was my Shore Patrol turns in the Navy. I'm just curious as to why your departments have you having patrol rifles. What situations do you think you would have to use a rifle in instead of your pistol?

Dstrbdmedic167
13 December 2014, 15:59
I'm not Leo but the answer is pretty simple. The LA shooting in the early 90's. LEO's were outgunned and ever since no departments wants to be outgunned. Would you want to take a shotgun or a Glock to an AR fight? You want to at least have the same firepower your enemy will have as a minimum.

WHSmithIV
13 December 2014, 16:11
I'm not Leo but the answer is pretty simple. The LA shooting in the early 90's. LEO's were outgunned and ever since no departments wants to be outgunned. Would you want to take a shotgun or a Glock to an AR fight? You want to at least have the same firepower your enemy will have as a minimum.

Good point. I wasn't here in the US in the early 90's so I don't know what happened. I spent 23 years overseas. I don't see anything wrong with LEO's having AR's - I was just wondering what situations they think they would need to use them in.

Eric
13 December 2014, 23:37
...What situations do you think you would have to use a rifle in instead of your pistol? Pistols suck, but are portable, so they are carried more readily than a rifle. Benefits of the Patrol Carbine include: superior terminal ballistics (sometimes referred to as "stopping power"), superior accuracy, superior range, greater magazine capacity, ability to defeat soft body armor, less chance of over-penetration, and a few more I won't go into. Different departments have different policies on who is authorized to carry one and when they are deployed. However, if you have access to a Patrol Carbine during an incident where it's reasonable to foresee a potential lethal threat and you elect leave the superior tool behind, you're a fool.

Soisauss
14 December 2014, 15:24
Troy makes nice drop in rails.

WHSmithIV
14 December 2014, 16:24
Pistols suck, but are portable, so they are carried more readily than a rifle. Benefits of the Patrol Carbine include: superior terminal ballistics (sometimes referred to as "stopping power"), superior accuracy, superior range, greater magazine capacity, ability to defeat soft body armor, less chance of over-penetration, and a few more I won't go into. Different departments have different policies on who is authorized to carry one and when they are deployed. However, if you have access to a Patrol Carbine during an incident where it's reasonable to foresee a potential lethal threat and you elect leave the superior tool behind, you're a fool.

I do agree it would be very foolish to leave the superior tool behind. As I have stated I have no problem with LEO's having AR's or whatever else they need. I was just curious as to what situations you LEO's might come up against when you need them. Some of you live in cities with drug dealers and other assholes. I live in the mountains where there is no crime to speak of. Our deputies have life pretty easy in comparison to a NYC cop. I have a good friend who is a NYC police sergeant. He's just sticking it out now to get his retirement so he can move his family out of that shithole.

Thompson
14 December 2014, 17:04
He's just sticking it out now to get his retirement so he can move his family out of that shithole.
Best wishes to him.

UWone77
14 December 2014, 18:25
Troy makes nice drop in rails.

Troy Rails and Nice... what alternate universe is that? [:D]

Ordnance
14 December 2014, 18:56
I'm just curious as to why your departments have you having patrol rifles. What situations do you think you would have to use a rifle in instead of your pistol?

https://i0.wp.com/www.pressandjournal.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/12/Hostages-are-being-held-by-at-least-one-gunman-660x496.jpg

Just sayin...

UWone77
14 December 2014, 19:10
BINGO! LOL

Again, I don't care about the less than 1% chance I'll lose my rifle to an evidence locker. Statistically, I could go several careers worth of calls and never shoot anyone with my patrol rifle. If I happen to lose it for a few years, big deal. I want to have the best possible weapons system I can afford, even if it's on my own dime, if that happened.


Good point. I wasn't here in the US in the early 90's so I don't know what happened. I spent 23 years overseas. I don't see anything wrong with LEO's having AR's - I was just wondering what situations they think they would need to use them in.

Our department has already had several active shooters in the last decade. It doesn't happen often, but when it happens again, I want the best possible weapon possible to defeat the thread. A handgun is a shitty weapon to kill someone. How many of us are comfortable engaging someone at 50+ yards with a handgun? Especially, if that person is shooting back with a long gun? A patrol rifle offers more range, ammo capacity, and accuracy, what's not to like about the platform?

Eric
14 December 2014, 19:58
And slowly drifting back to the Smith and Wesson M&P15 topic...
I've been impressed with the trigger in these. While still a mil-spec style trigger, it's very smooth. My particular one reminds me of the ALG ACT trigger and is WAY smoother than any of the Colt's I have, even after a high round count.

UWone77
15 December 2014, 19:47
And slowly drifting back to the Smith and Wesson M&P15 topic...
I've been impressed with the trigger in these. While still a mil-spec style trigger, it's very smooth. My particular one reminds me of the ALG ACT trigger and is WAY smoother than any of the Colt's I have, even after a high round count.

Surprisingly, I did get a decent trigger on my M&P15. Feels like a nicely broken in milspec trigger. I doubt S&W did anything to the trigger specifically though. It was probably one of those, you sometimes get lucky and get a decent trigger in your factory gun.

Soisauss
18 December 2014, 15:52
Troy Rails and Nice... what alternate universe is that? [:D]

Okay, I'm obviously missing the memo here lolol what's wrong with them that I have not heard of? Lol I have one of their 3 piece free float drop in rails that I used on the A4 build lol

UWone77
18 December 2014, 21:39
Okay, I'm obviously missing the memo here lolol what's wrong with them that I have not heard of? Lol I have one of their 3 piece free float drop in rails that I used on the A4 build lol

Troy is decent, just not what I'd consider "nice"

Machining and anodizing leave a lot to be desired. There are also just much better designs out there. Plenty of people use them without issue, just not for me.

Soisauss
18 December 2014, 22:06
Troy is decent, just not what I'd consider "nice"

Machining and anodizing leave a lot to be desired. There are also just much better designs out there. Plenty of people use them without issue, just not for me.

ahh fully understood.

UWone77
24 December 2014, 19:52
Quick Snap Shot of most of the changes:

Knights RAS, VFG
Troy BUIS
Aimpoint PRO
Rainier Raptor


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg.html)

Army203
24 December 2014, 20:27
Quick Snap Shot of most of the changes:

Knights RAS, VFG
Troy BUIS
Aimpoint PRO
Rainier Raptor


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg.html)

Looks about on par with what most GI's are using bro, set up wise. There rifle systems have killed a lot of bad guys, of course they are colts and FNs. At least it isn't a Mini 14 lol! Merry Christmas by the way.

tact
25 December 2014, 05:25
Quick Snap Shot of most of the changes:

Knights RAS, VFG
Troy BUIS
Aimpoint PRO
Rainier Raptor


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_2663_zpsce4c096b.jpg.html)

At least you aren't stuck with an Eotech 512....

Eric
25 December 2014, 16:34
At least you aren't stuck with an Eotech 512....
The 512 is serviceable with the battery compartment fix and lithium batteries...still not my first choice. The bottom of the barrel is the 511 with the N size batteries. :eek:

KevinBLC
26 December 2014, 15:58
Needs a light.

Thompson
26 December 2014, 16:19
Needs a light.
Wanna throw in a can opener while we're at it ? [BD]

rob_s
27 December 2014, 08:03
I would probably look to find a longer, FSB cutout, free-float handguard, if one exists that doesn't require removal of the delta ring. That way you get more sling-mounting flexibility and the ability to add an x300 to the top rail in front of the FSB.

ETA:

I'd get one of these.

https://troyind.com/products/charlie-blk

Gaspipeshooter
27 December 2014, 12:57
I would probably look to find a longer, FSB cutout, free-float handguard, if one exists that doesn't require removal of the delta ring. That way you get more sling-mounting flexibility and the ability to add an x300 to the top rail in front of the FSB.

ETA:

I'd get one of these.

https://troyind.com/products/charlie-blk

I doubt U Dubya s going to take your suggestion to heart...


Troy Rails and Nice... what alternate universe is that? [:D]

UWone77
15 January 2015, 00:16
I would probably look to find a longer, FSB cutout, free-float handguard, if one exists that doesn't require removal of the delta ring. That way you get more sling-mounting flexibility and the ability to add an x300 to the top rail in front of the FSB.

ETA:

I'd get one of these.

https://troyind.com/products/charlie-blk

We can't do anything to the rifles that involves removing the FSB, even if it's only temporarily to install something. It really limits what we can do.

Deadwing
15 January 2015, 02:19
For most I would agree. If that happened, I'd just grab another Noveske of the bakers dozen out of the safe. [:D]

Bakers dozen? And here i thought i had the Noveske bug pretty badů :P

rob_s
15 January 2015, 02:53
We can't do anything to the rifles that involves removing the FSB, even if it's only temporarily to install something. It really limits what we can do.

I was under the impression that the only thing you had to remove was the sling swivel and plastic handguards.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UPz00hCMiU

Jerry R
15 January 2015, 12:31
MI makes an extended free float that installs without pulling the FSB. Can you remove the Delta Ring?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/AR-15/IMG_1036EOTechRightRearAngle300ppi.jpg~original

UWone77
15 January 2015, 12:44
I was under the impression that the only thing you had to remove was the sling swivel and plastic handguards.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0UPz00hCMiU

Well... I had not seen that before... That's interesting!!



MI makes an extended free float that installs without pulling the FSB. Can you remove the Delta Ring?

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/AR-15/IMG_1036EOTechRightRearAngle300ppi.jpg~original


No, removal of the delta ring is not permitted.

I hate 7" handguards, as there isn't enough room to be comfortable for my shooting tastes. I'll have to look at rob's suggestion more.

wsaraceni
23 January 2015, 11:22
I'm just curious as to why your departments have you having patrol rifles. What situations do you think you would have to use a rifle in instead of your pistol?

better to not need and have instead of need and not have.

my soon to be brother in law is a cop in a northern NJ town. they have sig sidearms and each car (not person) had a colt 9mm. pretty much figure out how you can buy it from colt and thats how it was. no sling, no light, nothing. and from what i've heard none of them really cared. then last year, some idiot, in one of the most expensive malls in the country decided to go into the mall with a zastava rifle and shoot up the ceiling, scaring the crap out of everyone, before eating a bullet in a back hallway.

my soon to be brother in law was one of the first officers into the mall. they took their 9mm carbines (no idea why they have since been replaced with 9mm carbines again) and went in the mall. they didn't have slings, spare mags, or anything else. they had to carry this carbine for hours. at least the new one has slings

i never understood the police issuing a cut and dry order to their officers. they trust you with a gun, they should trust you to pick whatever gun works best for you. I'm fine if they supply a glock and a m&p 15 but if you want to do anything else its out of your own pocket. but at least give people that choice.

wsaraceni
23 January 2015, 11:23
an entire upper is bolt on AND not permanent. just saying

gatordev
23 January 2015, 13:08
an entire upper is bolt on AND not permanent. just saying

That's not really how it works. And for an LE operation, once a round leaves the barrel, everything gets scrutinized. If a round actually hits someone, multiply that scrutinization by at least 100. It's not like you can just hide what was used.

A buddy of mine was conducting an interdiction mission about a month before I came out to relieve him. Their gunner ended up taking a shot that resulted in a ricochet that blew a guy's ass off (literally). It even made the news ticker on network news (I saw it the next morning). Everything was shut down for 3 days while investigators were sent out to inspect the weapons, review the tapes, and take statements. All ROE had been followed and no protocols had been ignored. If they had cowboy'ed one of the weapons, I'm sure there would have been considerable fallout.

nCarnage
31 January 2015, 18:03
I just hate when depts change policies on things that probably didnt need to be changed. If they did do the change, they should allow the user be able to modify the weapon in some way to suit their needs (ie longer rails).

I once worked with a dept who used old AR-15s the appeared to be from Vietnam era. But the SWAT team had all the latest things (HK G3g.....the one with the crappy optic attached).

Stay safe out there UW.