Help me decide...!

[Nathan_Mack]

The choices seemed simple enough in the beginning, but damn it am I torn...

I am either going to build a 18" SPR type AR or buy and modify an AK to "modernize" it. Here are the two build ideas...help me decide...

AR15 SPR (sorta):


18" Medium contour barrel (rife length gas system)
Standard FSB (Armalite clamp on)
Muzzle device compatible with chosen suppressor
Minimalist handguard (Magpul MOE rifle length?)
2x-10x variable scope
Major parts dipped in Kryptek Highlander


AK (modernized)


Zastava M70-type N-PAP model AK variant
Midwest Industries AK extended rail (w/micro red dot top rail)
Techsights AK rear sight system
ACE collapsible stock tube (AR type)
Magpul stock of some flavor
Vortex Sparc (option for magnified optics too)
Modern muzzle device (not yet determined)
Also dipped in Kryptek Highlander


I only have enough to build one right now because I am saving parallel to this build choice for an M1A Scout Squad. I also already have a complete lower and stripped upper for the AR build...

Help! I am trying to get all my favorites in the safe before 2016. [BD]

[Reaper277]

I've got a N-Pap on the way, so I vote for the AK build.
You are aware that the NPap is a Yugo so double check your parts.
I would recommend the Krebs rear plate over the Ace. You can still use any of the Ace stocks with it.

[gatordev]

Those two guns are very different in their configuration. What do you want out of your gun? A plinker? A run 'n gun weapon? A precision gun? Until you answer that, the only real input you're going to get from people is what they own or what they like, which doesn't solve your problem.

[Nathan_Mack]

Those two guns are very different in their configuration. What do you want out of your gun? A plinker? A run 'n gun weapon? A precision gun? Until you answer that, the only real input you're going to get from people is what they own or what they like, which doesn't solve your problem.



300 yard battle accuracy minimum (5" groups w/ball ammo)
Under 8.5 pounds
120 round min. and 200 round max. loadout still packable


Both fit the bill for the above list and both cost about the same to complete. So I am looking for exactly what you stated...opinion based on personal experience with these two platforms.

I should add that I have an extensive background with firearms so this is not a first build decision. My duty rifle is an AR that I built myself, but it is designed for urban use. This build is more of a "anything" build as I see it.

[UWone77]

1.5 MOA out of a modern AK with ball ammo at 300 yards seems ... unrealistic.

Please correct me if I'm off.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

1.5 MOA out of a modern AK with ball ammo at 300 yards seems ... unrealistic.

Please correct me if I'm off.

I'll back you in that. You're doing good to get 2"-3" at 100 yes with most aks and standard ball ammo.

[Nathan_Mack]

1.5 MOA out of a modern AK with ball ammo at 300 yards seems ... unrealistic.

Please correct me if I'm off.

Slip of the finger...it was suppose to read "6 inch". 2 MOA with an AK is possible. I've seen it in similarly configured weapons as I described above. Even in that ballpark would satisfy me, though.

[UWone77]

I'll back you in that. You're doing good to get 2"-3" at 100 yes with most aks and standard ball ammo.

And that's what most people will do with standard ball ammo out of an AR. 2-3" groups with 4 MOA M855 Ammo.

[gatordev]

300 yard battle accuracy minimum (5" groups w/ball ammo)
Under 8.5 pounds
120 round min. and 200 round max. loadout still packable


Both fit the bill for the above list and both cost about the same to complete. So I am looking for exactly what you stated...opinion based on personal experience with these two platforms.

I should add that I have an extensive background with firearms so this is not a first build decision. My duty rifle is an AR that I built myself, but it is designed for urban use. This build is more of a "anything" build as I see it.

Personally, I'd be happier with a SPR-ish system, but I enjoy the AR form factor more than the AK. If you've got the right parts, it would seem it's easier to get better accuracy out of the AR (worst case, 4.5-ish inches at 300) than the AK, but obviously the quality of the AK will affect that. It seems to me that if you want to go past 300, the AR is the way to go. Not because an AK can't reach out past that, but the optic on the AR option makes it much easier (as opposed to the RDS on the AK).

[Dstrbdmedic167]

And that's what most people will do with standard ball ammo out of an AR. 2-3" groups with 4 MOA M855 Ammo.

Not if you use rainier parts ;)

[Nathan_Mack]

And that's what most people will do with standard ball ammo out of an AR. 2-3" groups with 4 MOA M855 Ammo.


Not if you use rainier parts ;)

My experience with my current duty AR (16", 1:9) and M855 ammo is 1.5" at 100 yards. It's never faltered from that; at least not yet. If I go SPR, I hope to keep that trend going--or better.

Now if only 75gr Hornady TAP 5.56 would flood the market again....

[JGifford]

My experience with my current duty AR (16", 1:9) and M855 ammo is 1.5" at 100 yards. It's never faltered from that; at least not yet. If I go SPR, I hope to keep that trend going--or better.

Now if only 75gr Hornady TAP 5.56 would flood the market again....

I tested several brands of M855. Winchester shot well over 3 MOA 10-shot groups at 1 and 200 yards. PPU shot about 2.2 MOA at 100 yards, and 1.8 MOA at 200 yards. M855 varies.

[UWone77]

I tested several brands of M855. Winchester shot well over 3 MOA 10-shot groups at 1 and 200 yards. PPU shot about 2.2 MOA at 100 yards, and 1.8 MOA at 200 yards. M855 varies.

And that pretty much mirrors my experience with it.

75gr Hornady TAP isn't what I'd consider "ball ammo" [:D]

But your budget maybe bigger than mine.

[mustangfreek]

Do both of them...[:D]...thats what we do around here right...lol


Ya i get 2-3" groups with std ball ammo,federal,pms 556 stuff.. but my reloads with 55gr plinkers i can manage 1" groups...

[Nathan_Mack]

And that pretty much mirrors my experience with it.

75gr Hornady TAP isn't what I'd consider "ball ammo" [:D]

But your budget maybe bigger than mine.

My budget is hanging at the end of a shoestring. Haha.

Hornady TAP is not ball ammo, but in use it at work. I wish bit were at M855 or XM193 prices!


Do both of them...[:D]...thats what we do around here right...lol


Ya i get 2-3" groups with std ball ammo,federal,pms 556 stuff.. but my reloads with 55gr plinkers i can manage 1" groups...

I will eventually build both, but the finances dictate one at a time. Haha.

Reloading is ideal if I had the space to do it right now.

[specopsscout]

Here's one more vote for the SPR base. If accuracy is one of your key considerations, it's a no brainer; particularly as you appear to be applying this to actual field shooting compared to a range environment.

[Nathan_Mack]

Here's one more vote for the SPR base. If accuracy is one of your key considerations, it's a no brainer; particularly as you appear to be applying this to actual field shooting compared to a range environment.

Yes. Only range time it will see is to zero sights/optics and test ammo. All other applications will be fielded. Hence the Kryptek Highlander camo job it will be getting.

[Nathan_Mack]

As an update I am getting more excited about an SPR build the more I research the components for the build. An AK is on my list, but a SPR/DSM type AR is starting to tickle the fancy a bit more.

For barrels...my dilemma... Very few companies contour a true SPR profile on barrels, including the shoulder for the OPS INC 12th collar. I am sure this is an age old question now, but White Oak Armament or their competitors? All are +/- $20 of each other.

[gatordev]

As an update I am getting more excited about an SPR build the more I research the components for the build. An AK is on my list, but a SPR/DSM type AR is starting to tickle the fancy a bit more.

For barrels...my dilemma... Very few companies contour a true SPR profile on barrels, including the shoulder for the OPS INC 12th collar. I am sure this is an age old question now, but White Oak Armament or their competitors? All are +/- $20 of each other.

I'm not sure where it fits in your price points, but have you looked at Centurion Arms? He usually has some actual SPR/MK12 Douglas barrels. Mine shoots laser beams (albeit in a complete upper from him).

[Nathan_Mack]

I'm not sure where it fits in your price points, but have you looked at Centurion Arms? He usually has some actual SPR/MK12 Douglas barrels. Mine shoots laser beams (albeit in a complete upper from him).

Thank you. I will check them out. How tight are your groups and are you reloading?

[WHSmithIV]

How about look at it this way since you obviously want to have both rifles and you can only build one at a time anyway. Flip a coin. Heads comes up, build the AR, tails come up, build the AK.
Once you finish the first one then go to the second one.

That being said, I think you should do the AK first while everything is still available for them. In the next 20 years or so there is no telling what will happen with AK's since so many of their basic components get imported. Saiga's are basically impossible to get now with the current government ban on the Russian imports. So, build the AK first. The AR parts will be available for a long time to come.

[gatordev]

Thank you. I will check them out. How tight are your groups and are you reloading?

I don't reload (with a PCS move every couple of years, I don't have the room and/or the time to get invested). I've been shooting either Southwest Ammo's 77gr SMKs or Black Hills Blue Box .223 77gr. I find the SWA stuff is a little hotter (on the chrono) and just slightly more accurate, but honestly, the accuracy could just be me on any given day. Assuming I'm having a good day, the rifle is sub-MOA at 100 with either round. During an informal local "SPR Match," we were shooting 2 inch steel targets at ~150 yards and the rifle was capable of hitting them with boring regularity. I was even impressed how well it shot Federal M855 when I was plinking with my dad last year (probably around 1.5-2 MOA at 100 and maybe a touch more out at 200).

Also, FWIW, CA's customer service is very good. When I ordered my upper, my gas tube had been bent when he installed the rail. Since he was at Coronado at the time and I was at North Island, I asked to just do a one-for-one swap. Monty was deployed at the time, so he couldn't meet me, but his wife did and we swapped uppers. That was very nice of them to do so I didn't have to do all the shipping back and forth for something that would only be traveling 10 miles total.

Sorry, didn't mean to gush about CA. I've just been very happy with the MK12 upper and my 12.5" barrel. Good stuff.

[Nathan_Mack]

How about look at it this way since you obviously want to have both rifles and you can only build one at a time anyway. Flip a coin. Heads comes up, build the AR, tails come up, build the AK.
Once you finish the first one then go to the second one.

That being said, I think you should do the AK first while everything is still available for them. In the next 20 years or so there is no telling what will happen with AK's since so many of their basic components get imported. Saiga's are basically impossible to get now with the current government ban on the Russian imports. So, build the AK first. The AR parts will be available for a long time to come.

I've thought about this angle, too. Hard to decide...

I actually want to buy receiver flats and try making my own AK with a parts kit.

[El Cid]

The choices seemed simple enough in the beginning, but damn it am I torn...

I am either going to build a 18" SPR type AR or buy and modify an AK to "modernize" it. Here are the two build ideas...help me decide...

AR15 SPR (sorta):


18" Medium contour barrel (rife length gas system)
Standard FSB (Armalite clamp on)
Muzzle device compatible with chosen suppressor
Minimalist handguard (Magpul MOE rifle length?)
2x-10x variable scope
Major parts dipped in Kryptek Highlander


AK (modernized)


Zastava M70-type N-PAP model AK variant
Midwest Industries AK extended rail (w/micro red dot top rail)
Techsights AK rear sight system
ACE collapsible stock tube (AR type)
Magpul stock of some flavor
Vortex Sparc (option for magnified optics too)
Modern muzzle device (not yet determined)
Also dipped in Kryptek Highlander


I only have enough to build one right now because I am saving parallel to this build choice for an M1A Scout Squad. I also already have a complete lower and stripped upper for the AR build...

Help! I am trying to get all my favorites in the safe before 2016. [BD]

I personally have no use for anything AK, so I'd vote SPR. I'm curious though... Why a fixed FSB and Magpul handguards?? If you want to help yourself in the accuracy department then free float the barrel. And flip up irons would be my choice for anything I build.

[Jerry R]

My budget is hanging at the end of a shoestring.

With stated budget constraints, and you already having the AR upper and lower, I would think that would drive the decision for which one gets done first. Are you starting from scratch on the AK, or already have some of those parts as well? Build a short matrix of cost items for both builds and see which one gets you out for the least amount. Sometimes money over-rides wants.

[Nathan_Mack]

I personally have no use for anything AK, so I'd vote SPR. I'm curious though... Why a fixed FSB and Magpul handguards?? If you want to help yourself in the accuracy department then free float the barrel. And flip up irons would be my choice for anything I build.

I've since changed my plans to include a free float handguard.

[specopsscout]

I'm no authority on the barrel makers who currently offer a true SPR profile, but I have owned two WOA barrels over the years and both were very accurate.

[Nathan_Mack]

I'm no authority on the barrel makers who currently offer a true SPR profile, but I have owned two WOA barrels over the years and both were very accurate.

That seems to be who I will be going with. Douglas barrels are nice, but $400 for a barrel isn't gonna work.