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FortTom
7 October 2014, 00:04
I've got too many AR's and am putting the finishing touches on a AR-10 that I just obtained and am "re-engineering". I was going to quit after that, to take more time shooting, especially getting rusty with pistol. But I've got it in my head that I'd like a dedicated varmit rifle, with a heavy stainless barrel, and a lightweight hand guard with the ability to attach a small piece of rail on the bottom for a Bi-Pod.

I've been seeing a lot of talk about the .277 Wolverine. My first idea was just stick with a 5.56 barrel which will humanely kill coyotes at 300 yards, if I do my part. But the wolverine is getting some impressive muzzle velocity readings with 90 grainers.

Their website is pretty quiet about their claims at this time, with most info coming from around the 'net.

The only down side is it's a strictly load your own proposition from what I read on their FB page.

The upside is they use 5.56 brass, so a standard AR bolt will work, as well as mags, vs. other 6.8 rounds which require another bolt. Actually I could just build the upper and use it on one of my existing lowers.

Any input, yea or nay, warnings, advise, or just something to add here. All input would be greatly appreciated.

FT

GaSwamper
7 October 2014, 04:11
FT it makes a great varmit gun. I opted for the 10.5'' barrel and have been very satisfied. Even in the short barrel the velocities are lookin great, like the BLK it seems it still holds performance even in the short offerings. I believe the 18" will tap the full potential and be as long as you would need to go in the AR. The only 90gr I've worked up so far was the Gold Dot pulls I have and I've been pushing them around 2550fps out of the 10.5", I could get more but I like the expansion at this speed and accuracy has been great. The first loaded rounds supplied by JB's is coming very soon and just so happens first up is the 90gr. TNT I believe which has been a great varmit round for the 6.8 shooters. I had a chance to take out a nuisance/predator animal this weekend, 100yd shot and moving, the Gold Dot dropped it right there. Check out my New cal. New build thread to see the 95gr. Barnes results. In the longer barrel it would be absolutely devastating.

Dstrbdmedic167
7 October 2014, 04:15
FT, I was one of the first to get a 16" 277 WLV barre back in July. I have also done a lot of load development for it. The numbers are very impressive IMO.

I have pushed a 90gr GD to over 2800fps and my deer hunting load will be a 100gr accubond that I have been getting consistent averages of 2675fps. Grouping for both is sub MOA all day long.

I also have found a good plinking load that is a little slower, around 2550, but gives me .4" grouping at 100yds.

I know 90GD factory loaded ammo will be available shortly, ie being made as we speak. There are also plans on a factory 100gr accubond, however, I don't have an ETA on that.

The WLV has been performing well enough in actually considering selling all my 6.8 stuff. As you mentioned same mags and bolts just makes sense to me. In a lot of ways I think it's what the 6.8 should have been.

Let me know if I can help you in any way. If I don't know an answer, I'll go and find out.

Medic

Dstrbdmedic167
7 October 2014, 04:17
Ohh, and I have also been able to ring steel at 300 meters consistently. On my Vortex Viper PA 6.5-20x44 it was just over two marks on the BDC reticle. (not good with drop calculations)

tact
7 October 2014, 04:38
Good info.....much appreciated.

MDWS
7 October 2014, 05:54
FT, I do need to update the website no doubt. Sorry about that. Km glad to see you're interested in the .277 Wolverine or at least have even heard of it.

Is it the ideal Varmint cartridge? No. Is it a good one with multiple other uses in an AR15 platform that only needs a barrel swap? Yes. At least we think so.

There are other cartridges out there that shoot flatter further, no arguments. The key to the WLV's success is versatility. You can use bullets from 80 grains to 110 grains with stellar performance from such a little case. The 85MPG are going over 2800 in handloads, the 90TNT over 2750 (Varmint and Target). The 95TTSX is going over 2600 and the 100AB as well (Deer and Hog Hunting). The 110 grain V-Max and 110 grain Sierra ProHunter over 2500 (anti-personnel or other). Once you get over 110 grains performance as far as velocity and trajectory start to dwindle but you pack a whallop of energy within 150 yards for close encounters on dangerous critters.

All that with the ease of just a barrel swap from your 5.56 platform... same mags, bolt, etc. And, it won't cost you an arm and a leg like some other Wildcats with incredibly expensive barrels and such.

I might suggest an 18" barrel for what it sounds like you want to do as you should be able to squeeze every fps you can. Over 18" doesn't seem worth it so far as the case is very efficient. I happen to have some 18" minor cosmetic blem barrels in right now for $180.00 shipped for example in 416R 5R stainless.

Anything I can do to help just let me know. I'm not a regular here but you can reach me anytime by using the contact us page on the website.

Thanks!

FortTom
7 October 2014, 12:29
FT, I do need to update the website no doubt. Sorry about that. Km glad to see you're interested in the .277 Wolverine or at least have even heard of it.

Is it the ideal Varmint cartridge? No. Is it a good one with multiple other uses in an AR15 platform that only needs a barrel swap? Yes. At least we think so.

There are other cartridges out there that shoot flatter further, no arguments. The key to the WLV's success is versatility. You can use bullets from 80 grains to 110 grains with stellar performance from such a little case. The 85MPG are going over 2800 in handloads, the 90TNT over 2750 (Varmint and Target). The 95TTSX is going over 2600 and the 100AB as well (Deer and Hog Hunting). The 110 grain V-Max and 110 grain Sierra ProHunter over 2500 (anti-personnel or other). Once you get over 110 grains performance as far as velocity and trajectory start to dwindle but you pack a whallop of energy within 150 yards for close encounters on dangerous critters.

All that with the ease of just a barrel swap from your 5.56 platform... same mags, bolt, etc. And, it won't cost you an arm and a leg like some other Wildcats with incredibly expensive barrels and such.

I might suggest an 18" barrel for what it sounds like you want to do as you should be able to squeeze every fps you can. Over 18" doesn't seem worth it so far as the case is very efficient. I happen to have some 18" minor cosmetic blem barrels in right now for $180.00 shipped for example in 416R 5R stainless.

Anything I can do to help just let me know. I'm not a regular here but you can reach me anytime by using the contact us page on the website.

Thanks!

O.K., from the MAN, himself. Actually wandered onto your FB page while doing the Stickman Giveaway thing. See, it does work! An 18" barrel was what I had in mind. What caught my eye was the 2750 fps with a 90 grain pill. Some quick calculations show that it should be great out to 300 or so for (primarily) Coyotes. Again, I think I'd just build an upper and use one of my other lowers. Glad to hear that there is factory ammo in the works, as I don't have my reloading bench set up, for several reasons.

Thanks for the info.

FT

FortTom
7 October 2014, 13:01
O.K., ordered the barrel, off we go on another adventure.... Will probably just build the upper and use it on an existing lower until I see how things go with this cartridge.

FT

Dstrbdmedic167
7 October 2014, 13:06
O.K., ordered the barrel, off we go on another adventure.... Will probably just build the upper and use it on an existing lower until I see how things go with this cartridge.

FT

Glad to hear you're in the fray now! I'm between here, the WLV forum and 68forums if you need any help once you get things rolling as far as ammo and such if you start reloading. Great to have you aboard!

FortTom
7 October 2014, 13:14
Glad to hear you're in the fray now! I'm between here, the WLV forum and 68forums if you need any help once you get things rolling as far as ammo and such if you start reloading. Great to have you aboard!
Thanks, I am hoping for some loaded ammo for now. I'm considering a move, and don't really want to set up my reloading bench for now, but I can, I guess, if no loaded ammo comes along soon. We'll see if it's worth unboxing all of my gear and set up to reload, when I might just have to tear it back down again.

[:D]

Kopis
7 October 2014, 13:22
Resale will be difficult for an off the shelf chambered upper. I could see where you are concerned with the 556 ability to kill but a good varmint round should solve most of those issues. 6.5 Grendel is what i would've done. Amazing ballistics for long range and will handle medium to large game, and is becoming commercially available now.

At any rate, building them is half the fun. As long as you have a reloader... no problem.

FortTom
7 October 2014, 13:49
What? All I have to do is mount a barrel in a upper receiver. Add a handguard, and that's about it. If you had read any of the post, one thing that makes this cartridge interesting is that it doesn't require another bolt or magazines, I'll just use and existing lower. I have plenty of lowers with NiB BCG's, 3.5 lb. triggers and CTR stocks. If I were worried about resale of the barrel, I wouldn't buy it. A 6.5 Grendel would be better for big game? Yes, but I have hunting rifles that are better than an AR for most hunting. I also have an AR-10 in 7.62 if I want to hunt with a AR platform rifle.

Yes I have reloading gear as stated at least a couple of times in this thread. Also, stated in the thread, from the folks at Mad Dog is that factory ammo is being loaded at this time. If necessary I will load my own.

Thanks,
FT

GaSwamper
7 October 2014, 17:00
What? All I have to do is mount a barrel in a upper receiver. Add a handguard, and that's about it. If you had read any of the post, one thing that makes this cartridge interesting is that it doesn't require another bolt or magazines, I'll just use and existing lower. I have plenty of lowers with NiB BCG's, 3.5 lb. triggers and CTR stocks. If I were worried about resale of the barrel, I wouldn't buy it. A 6.5 Grendel would be better for big game? Yes, but I have hunting rifles that are better than an AR for most hunting. I also have an AR-10 in 7.62 if I want to hunt with a AR platform rifle.

Yes I have reloading gear as stated at least a couple of times in this thread. Also, stated in the thread, from the folks at Mad Dog is that factory ammo is being loaded at this time. If necessary I will load my own.

Thanks,
FT

When I was first looking into the Wolvie I was itching to test and advance my reloading abilities on a wildcat and loved the idea of just a barrel swap to convert to 5.56 or BLK if it didn't pan out. Now i'm very pleased with my little setup and have enjoyed maybe one of the easiest cats out there to cut my teeth on. I really like the fact that it's capable of taking varmits up to deer sized game, great for my in season scouting trips here in GA. And yes in today's market and with the intrest in this I never worry about barrel resale.

FortTom
7 October 2014, 17:39
And yes in today's market and with the intrest in this I never worry about barrel resale.

I hear you. I never go into an AR build worried about resale. That's a fools game. They are guns, comprised of "today's" state-of- the art" components, which are soon yesterdays old news. If it were a NIB Colt Python from the 60's, or one of the thousands of collectibles, I'd buy for investment value. If I were investing, I'd buy more silver and gold. If I just had to sell them, I'd guess I'd like to get my money back, but that's a foolish notion. I consider it money gone, and if I sold and recouped most of my money I'd be happy. I see guys trying to sell components and optics for right at, or even new prices. Saw a used Aimpoint P.R.O the other day for more than I could buy it from at Optics Planet, with bold letters: Price is Firm. My guess is that will be for sale for a while.

I haven't been involved in "wild catting" for quite a while, probably 20 years or more ago. I never really fell upon anything that something already available wouldn't do. Some of my hunting rifles were chambered for rounds that were commercially available, but had been based on a "wildcat". The .25-06, and the .338-'06 come to mind. Both are great rounds and I think both are still available commercially.

I've had enough experience with the 300 BLK that I knew, that for my personal needs and tastes, it didn't cut it for me. The 6.5 round out of a 18" SS barrel at 2900 f.p.s. sounds pretty good, for an AR platform rifle.
I've had dedicated Varmit rifles that were an easy "kill" at 500 yds. But, where I live, maybe I'll have to shoot 200 yds at the most, at a coyote. Less for a fox.

Anyway, since I haven't had any experience with the .277 WLV, everything I have to go on is other's opinions and experiences, and anecdotal info. I will have fun figuring thing out for myself.

FT[:D]

Dstrbdmedic167
7 October 2014, 18:11
Anyway, since I haven't had any experience with the .277 WLV, everything I have to go on is other's opinions and experiences, and anecdotal info. I will have fun figuring thing out for myself.

FT[:D]

Isn't that half the fun though... I know I've had more fun developing loads and sharing data with this round than any other...

MDWS
7 October 2014, 21:54
FT,

I'm glad to see you "get it".

If you need anything along the way, just hit me up. Sounds like you'll be just fine, though.

FortTom
10 October 2014, 19:29
FT,

I'm glad to see you "get it".

If you need anything along the way, just hit me up. Sounds like you'll be just fine, though.

Got my 18" SS .277WLV Barrel today! Looks great Ordered an Aero Precision stripped Upper W/O forward assist, just need a dust cover. Still looking for the "just right" hand guard, something 15" or so, and some way to add a small rail section on the bottom for a bi pod. I'm just going to pull a BCG, CH and Lower off of another rifle, as a "loaner" for this one as it will be a dedicated varmint gun. Maybe some coyote hunting this winter, but probably next spring. Looking forward to this, maybe my last rifle.

FT

UWone77
10 October 2014, 19:47
maybe my last rifle.

FT

NO WAY... [:D]

FT, Try out the 15" FORCE Rail. Might be right up your alley.

Dstrbdmedic167
10 October 2014, 19:55
NO WAY... [:D]

FT, Try out the 15" FORCE Rail. Might be right up your alley.

Yep there is never a last rifle...

The new gen 2 would work well

Ride4frnt
10 October 2014, 20:20
My suggestion on the rail are the 15" force rail or the 15" ALG Defense rail.

FortTom
10 October 2014, 21:19
Yep there is never a last rifle...

The new gen 2 would work well

Which Gen 2?

Dstrbdmedic167
10 October 2014, 21:22
Which Gen 2?

http://www.revolvr.com/new-rainier-arms-forcetm-free-float-system-15-0.html

FortTom
10 October 2014, 21:33
I looked at all 3 so far and the Gen 2, especially at 150 bucks, looks great. Since it won't see really "rough" handling as a dedicated varmint gun, I'm sure it would really be tough enough to handle the job. Lots of open space too, for good air flow and cooling.

Good Call...

Dstrbdmedic167
10 October 2014, 21:37
I looked at all 3 so far and the Gen 2, especially at 150 bucks, looks great. Since it won't see really "rough" handling as a dedicated varmint gun, I'm sure it would really be tough enough to handle the job. Lots of open space too, for good air flow and cooling.

Good Call...

Yep I agree, you'll be hard pressed to find that quality of a rail at that price point. I have the original 12' an 7' force rails So far they are great. Feel great in the hand, light yet very sturdy feeling. I also like the "monolithic" appearance they give.

Former11B
23 October 2014, 10:54
Out of curiousity, what powder(s) are you using to get this performance out of the 277?

I am looking at getting into this caliber. I load for 5.56 and 308, and while I hunt with the .308 it's a beast especially when suppressed. I'd like to build a lightweight .277 I can use my QD 7.62 can with when I want. Probably run a 2-7x power optic... Already building it in my head

Are you sourcing bullets locally or online? And the biggest thing for me is converting brass.

Thanks!


FT, I was one of the first to get a 16" 277 WLV barre back in July. I have also done a lot of load development for it. The numbers are very impressive IMO.

I have pushed a 90gr GD to over 2800fps and my deer hunting load will be a 100gr accubond that I have been getting consistent averages of 2675fps. Grouping for both is sub MOA all day long.

I also have found a good plinking load that is a little slower, around 2550, but gives me .4" grouping at 100yds.

I know 90GD factory loaded ammo will be available shortly, ie being made as we speak. There are also plans on a factory 100gr accubond, however, I don't have an ETA on that.

The WLV has been performing well enough in actually considering selling all my 6.8 stuff. As you mentioned same mags and bolts just makes sense to me. In a lot of ways I think it's what the 6.8 should have been.

Let me know if I can help you in any way. If I don't know an answer, I'll go and find out.

Medic

Dstrbdmedic167
23 October 2014, 10:58
In using 1680 to get the above velocities. A lot of other people are using 5744 and getting similar results. You can use 2200, RE7 and imr 4198 and get great accuracy but velocity isn't as good. You can buy formed brass from A couple of sponsors at the MDWS WLV forum if that makes it easier. Bullets I get online from various places. RMR had 90gr GD the other day and I have found 100gr AB overstock at Shooters pro shop for $18.45 per 50 which is a great price! Just look around and you'll find them.

Former11B
23 October 2014, 11:05
Thanks for the info!

I get some great accuracy with 4198 and my bolt .223 so I'm not a stranger to it...and I like having commonality/powder I can use in more than one gun.

I'll probably look at getting a few hundred pieces of formed brass to start just to make things easier on me...glad to know that's an option

I'm going to *try* to swing a .277 package as a Christmas present to myself this year so hopefully the wife plays ball. I was trying to talk her into another 5.56 can the other day with no luck lol

Dstrbdmedic167
23 October 2014, 11:06
I'm the same way want a general commonality in majority of my powders as well. Slide on over to the forum and get aquatinted and good luck on the Christmas present

UWone77
23 October 2014, 15:30
How much longer before there is commercially available .277 ammo?

Dstrbdmedic167
23 October 2014, 15:33
http://i1307.photobucket.com/albums/s584/monzahunter/277ammo2_zpse687dbfc.jpg

any day now... think he is having some trouble getting his website going...

MDWS
28 October 2014, 08:37
How much longer before there is commercially available .277 ammo?

"Factory" loaded ammunition is available right now from JB's Firearms. All they are offering at this time is a 90TNT Varmint/Target/Plinking load. They said they would have 100 grain AccuBonds next.

There is another company called Mid-South Munitions that is about to release their offerings any day now. 90 grain to 120 grain.

It's getting there!

mustangfreek
30 January 2015, 15:47
HEY FT, I know your like the WEVO elder..and you say you cant see too well anymore..so you need a new hunting gun...got your wolverine gun covered..a little 277 wolverine saw action..lol

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1795538_596227483841142_292520275736401922_n.jpg?o h=cda2c8f93da7dc0bc7f9d7719f16ba20&oe=555BEBD7

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12515_596227520507805_2311210045512474304_n.jpg?oh =34f4c3bbdcf94eac3b468b74add0dada&oe=555E4462

MDWS
30 January 2015, 16:12
This should take out a few of those varmints for ya'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9p04Ew_QU

(YouTube video of 277 Wolverine SAW in action).

We also have two ammo providers on board now, JB's Firearms and Mid-South Munitions!

Dstrbdmedic167
30 January 2015, 16:21
This should take out a few of those varmints for ya'.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9p04Ew_QU

(YouTube video of 277 Wolverine SAW in action).

We also have two ammo providers on board now, JB's Firearms and Mid-South Munitions!

That's awesome. More!!!!

FortTom
30 January 2015, 17:35
ha..ha..ha.. that should kill 'em, gut 'em and skin them all in one burst..[:D] if they don't burst into flames first.

usbp379
17 April 2017, 17:30
So a year and a half later. How are you all liking the Wolverine? Is it really that much different than 300BLK?

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Dstrbdmedic167
17 April 2017, 19:07
So a year and a half later. How are you all liking the Wolverine? Is it really that much different than 300BLK?

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I got out of it due to lack of time to reload/shoot. I still think it had its advantages over 300blk. If you're curious I say go for it!


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usbp379
18 April 2017, 01:47
On paper it appears to have a pretty solid lead on 300BLK. Who can argue that a Speer 90gr TNT cruising along at 2600 fps won't outdo a 125gr TNT running at 2200? The 277 appears to have a pretty solid trajectory advantage after 250 or 300 yards and is quite a bit flatter than Blackout at 500 and 600.

I'm interested in the cartridge but my interest is more from a PDW standpoint. How does the 277 do from a short barrel? Does it still hold a good velocity lead over the 300 when barrels are chopped?



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usbp379
19 April 2017, 16:07
I got out of it due to lack of time to reload/shoot. I still think it had its advantages over 300blk. If you're curious I say go for it!


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Are you still using 300BLK?

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Dstrbdmedic167
19 April 2017, 16:08
Are you still using 300BLK?

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Well I have one but honestly I haven't shot it in a while. I haven't done any shooting period in a while. Other than with a camera....


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usbp379
19 April 2017, 16:10
Well I have one but honestly I haven't shot it in a while. I haven't done any shooting period in a while. Other than with a camera....


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I guess I'm in the same boat. But some reloading supplies are becoming regularly available so I'm hoping to get back at it.

How did the 277 and 300 shoot side by side? Any real difference or just numbers on paper?

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BoilerUp
19 April 2017, 18:21
For what it's worth, MDWS just put the .277 Wolverine specs into the public domain so that opens the door for others to introduce offerings.

usbp379
20 April 2017, 09:41
For what it's worth, MDWS just put the .277 Wolverine specs into the public domain so that opens the door for others to introduce offerings.
They're also submitting for SAAMI certification.

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Dstrbdmedic167
20 April 2017, 10:45
They're also submitting for SAAMI certification.

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Yea I know he was talking about getting the ball rolling last time I spoke with him. Glad to see it finally getting to that point.

PS: I sent you a PM.

usbp379
20 April 2017, 12:04
Yea I know he was talking about getting the ball rolling last time I spoke with him. Glad to see it finally getting to that point.

PS: I sent you a PM.
Interesting video. Thanks.

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SINNER
21 April 2017, 09:23
My money is on this round going nowhere. It does nothing better than what's currently available and has no big money backer.

usbp379
21 April 2017, 10:26
My money is on this round going nowhere. It does nothing better than what's currently available and has no big money backer.
It should have a higher muzzle velocity than 300BLK so expansion should be more reliable and/or less dependent on bullet design. Higher velocity should mean flatter trajectory although the Wolverine still isn't going to be anything extraordinary in this regard.

The smaller bullet diameter means the cartridges should stack better in a standard AR mag. Mags shouldn't need adjustment or shaving as is something needed with 7.62X40WT.

All this is beneficial on paper. How these benefits translate on the range is unproven. To me at least.

You're probably right about the cartridge not going anywhere. But none of the AR wildcats have gone anywhere. 300BLK enjoys a somewhat popular stance right now but interest seems to have faded from where it was just a couple years ago. Same for the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Cheap ammo is certainly a factor. Until Tula starts making 300BLK that's priced like 223 or 7.62X39 none of these cartridges will "catch on" like they could. And while steel cased blasting ammo is available for the Grendel I don't think that crowd is too interested in cheap relatively inaccurate hosing ammo.

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Former11B
21 April 2017, 18:20
I guess I'm in the same boat. But some reloading supplies are becoming regularly available so I'm hoping to get back at it.

How did the 277 and 300 shoot side by side? Any real difference or just numbers on paper?

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You've got 3 years to stockpile. Who knows what's gonna happen in 2020.

I really like the sound of the .277, but 6.8 SPC had a much larger following and it's petering out it seems like. Parts less and less available...to me it feels like if you want a middle ground between .223 and .308, go with 300BLK or 7.62x39

usbp379
21 April 2017, 18:29
..go with 300BLK or 7.62x39

I have those calibers pretty well covered although I don't have an AR in 7.62X39.

We'll see what the 277 does. I have located a used barrel and some brass. I have some 6.8 bullets onhand. Now I just need to find a deal on some reloading dies.

MDWS
9 May 2017, 11:27
My money is on this round going nowhere. It does nothing better than what's currently available and has no big money backer.



Don't tell the barrel spinners that... it's keeping them plenty busy and the cartridge is growing in popularity, not the other way around. We recently released the prints, too. So, you will soon see others offering barrels and such once their tooling comes in.

So, I'll take your bet, publicly. $100.00 says it's still here in another 5 years and doing well? The cartridge is only 4 years old and growing faster than just about any other Wildcat has in the past.

The big money backers will be coming.

usbp379
9 May 2017, 13:47
Don't tell the barrel spinners that... it's keeping them plenty busy and the cartridge is growing in popularity, not the other way around. We recently released the prints, too. So, you will soon see others offering barrels and such once their tooling comes in.

So, I'll take your bet, publicly. $100.00 says it's still here in another 5 years and doing well? The cartridge is only 4 years old and growing faster than just about any other Wildcat has in the past.

The big money backers will be coming.
Have you had any bites on pre-made ammo? Not everyone is equipped or interested in chopping 223 cases and handloading. What about factory brass at least?

Those items right there will certainly help with sales as long as prices aren't outrageous.

And if you can get someone like CMMG to make uppers and Ballistic Advantage or Faxon to make barrels I think you'll be more than well on your way to market stability.

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MDWS
9 May 2017, 19:32
Have you had any bites on pre-made ammo? Not everyone is equipped or interested in chopping 223 cases and handloading. What about factory brass at least?

Those items right there will certainly help with sales as long as prices aren't outrageous.

And if you can get someone like CMMG to make uppers and Ballistic Advantage or Faxon to make barrels I think you'll be more than well on your way to market stability.

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There are two companies that make ammunition already. JB's Firearms out of Wisconsin and Outdoor Shooter Supply out of Oklahoma. Both offer ready to load brass as well. It doesn't have its own headstamp yet because it hasn't been forced to... which is one of the steps toward SAAMI registration. Most folks prefer the cheap, plentiful, converted LC cases. However, you are right... if some of those other folks get on board it will grow even faster. The SAAMI thing is holding it up right now, nothing more. But, that will change soon, too.

usbp379
10 May 2017, 01:31
I understand that part of the fun of shooting a wildcat is converting the brass. But not everyone enjoys reloading from what I'm told...

Have you looked at doing a run of 277 headstamped brass from either JAG or Starline? I suppose depending on the quantity needed for a production run you could either sell the brass on your website in bulk quantities or see about a group buy deal. Maybe these two commercial reloading shops would want some factory headstamped brass too.

Can you comment on the SAAMI approval process? I think we all sort of envision guys in white lab coats and hard hats carrying clipboards around. But is SAAMI an actual testing facility or more like a panel or committee of industry and trade people who review and agree on specs, etc?




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SINNER
10 May 2017, 05:47
Don't tell the barrel spinners that... it's keeping them plenty busy and the cartridge is growing in popularity, not the other way around. We recently released the prints, too. So, you will soon see others offering barrels and such once their tooling comes in.

So, I'll take your bet, publicly. $100.00 says it's still here in another 5 years and doing well? The cartridge is only 4 years old and growing faster than just about any other Wildcat has in the past.

The big money backers will be coming.

I'll take that bet but by going somewhere I do not mean another wildcat surviving on a few hand loaders. If 2 major ammo companies start selling head stamped .277 in the next 5 years I'll pay.

UWone77
10 May 2017, 05:55
I'll take that bet but by going somewhere I do not mean another wildcat surviving on a few hand loaders. If 2 major ammo companies start selling head stamped .277 in the next 5 years I'll pay.

I actually think 300 BLK is still having a hard time getting traction. Unless you're using a short barrel or suppressed where cartridges like 300 really shine, you don't get much benefit. This requirement automatically eliminates many shooters from adopting the round.

I think .277 is going to have a big hill to climb.

usbp379
10 May 2017, 15:59
I actually think 300 BLK is still having a hard time getting traction. Unless you're using a short barrel or suppressed where cartridges like 300 really shine, you don't get much benefit. This requirement automatically eliminates many shooters from adopting the round.

I think .277 is going to have a big hill to climb.
I'm not disagreeing with you. Any wildcat will have a monstrous hill to climb to overcome the popularity of the 223 Remington. That cartridge has proven itself to be accurate, effective and affordable. It does probably 90% of what the shooting public wants or needs.

As I understand it the 300BLK came to be when certain clandestine military units were looking for a cartridge and firearm that was quiet like the MP5SD but with improved performance at distance. It does this quite well as a suppressed SBR. It also turns out that the 300BLK is pretty decent with supersonic ammo from a 16in barrel. The 110gr Barnes is probably the best choice in this regard and would make a dandy police rifle cartridge. JD Jones is reported to have said that his 300 Whisper was always supposed to be about supers and subs and the versatility of both.

Of course the downside is the 300BLK is expensive to shoot and/or the performance sucks with the wrong bullets. Shooting 220gr Match Kings at 1000fps is a waste of high quality match bullets. Bullets that bulk reloaders use for range ammo like the 147gr FMJ are too slow to have much of a useful trajectory. Bullets like the Speer TNT and Sierra Pro Hunters are my favorites for blasting and general all around use. But even these bullets are fairly expensive and probably don't work well on anything bigger than coyotes. But even at its fastest the Blackout can't do more than 2350-2400 fps with the fastest loadings. Lehigh's 78gr ammo not withstanding.

The Wolverine potentially addresses some of the supersonic ballistic shortcomings of the Blackout by using a smaller and lighter projectile and a slightly longer case. The 277 should actually drive a 90gr bullet at sufficient velocity to expand at distance and shouldn't require the shooter to be terribly concerned with his holdovers at distance. Flatter shooting and better expansion should mean deader coyotes or pigs at slightly longer distance. Downside here, like the 300, is lack of relatively inexpensive bullets although there are bullets made for the 6.8 SPC that should work okay at Wolverine speeds.

This is just my take on things. I do have quite a bit of rounds downrange from the 300 but haven't done anything yet with the Wolverine. With all this said I could find that the Wolverine doesn't really do much more than the Blackout and is best for shooting to about 200 yards max.

I would like to note that the Blackout and Wolverine both mimic the 8mm Kürz ballistically. As y'all know the 8mm was Nazi Germany's approach to the long range machine pistol. It was the cartridge that started it all. I wonder how the Western firearms world would look now if the US had looked at something like the Kurz after WWII. Would we now be looking at taking our 30-06 Ultrashort and necking it down to .22cal as a "fighting" cartridge?

Anyway I apologize for the long rambling post...

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MDWS
10 May 2017, 19:48
I think .277 is going to have a big hill to climb.

I've got good boots on and a drive stronger than 1,000 cattle.

UWone77
11 May 2017, 17:20
I've got good boots on and a drive stronger than 1,000 cattle.

I believe you have the drive no doubt.

Stick's giveaway was over 2 years ago. Since then I haven't heard a peep about .277, and I feel like I keep in touch with the industry. Dstrbdmedic who was the only guy I knew that even had a .277 has already abandoned the cartridge. Granted I haven't been specifically paying attention to .277. I'll be keeping tabs on this.

Dstrbdmedic167
11 May 2017, 17:34
I left it due to lack of time to shoot and reload for it. I still love the cartridge itself. It was always one of my best and funniest shooting cartridges. The 90gr TNT's would just scream. If it does take off and get more commercial ammo vendors on the game I'd be all for adding it back.


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usbp379
13 May 2017, 13:27
I left it due to lack of time to shoot and reload for it. I still love the cartridge itself.

What was your pet load for the TNTs? Same question for 150gr subsonic.



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Dstrbdmedic167
13 May 2017, 13:30
What was your pet load for the TNTs? Same question for 150gr subsonic.



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I'd have to do some serious digging. My data should still be up on the forum over there since I was one of the main testers for it.


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usbp379
13 May 2017, 13:32
I'd have to do some serious digging. My data should still be up on the forum over there since I was one of the main testers for it.


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Cool. I'll do some checking.



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usbp379
23 May 2017, 01:43
I have some 150gr round nose loaded with 9.8gr of CFE BLK that I've been messing with. This combo runs right at 1000fps. The load is quiet and, surprisingly, has no trouble feeding.

I also have been messing with Nosler's 90gr bonded bullet. I have these running right around 2350fps from my 12.5in barrel. I fired three of these into 10% ballistics gel from Clear Ballistics. Penetration was right at 22in and the three bullets all expanded perfectly. Recovered weights were about 88.5gr per bullet and they opened to about half an inch in diameter!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/07932edb08176c7712234571d4ee7c40.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/40c40e2071d41d890ed81e461e5d165c.jpg

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usbp379
23 May 2017, 01:45
I have also found the cartridge to be quite accurate. This is three rounds fired from 100 yards using an EOTech and a 3x magnifier. Bullet used was the Sierra 110gr Pro Hunter. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170523/a9902f63fd799380d5875fc767cce11c.jpg

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Dstrbdmedic167
23 May 2017, 05:12
Looking good. My favorite bullet for hunting and accuracy was the 100gr accubond. The 90gr gold dots were also shooters.


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Stickman
23 May 2017, 05:22
What's with all the 3 shot groups lately!

BoilerUp
23 May 2017, 05:31
What's with all the 3 shot groups lately!

For load development, 3-shots is plenty for a given load to see how it compares to other loads.

UWone77
23 May 2017, 05:54
For load development, 3-shots is plenty for a given load to see how it compares to other loads.

3405

UWone77
23 May 2017, 05:54
Sorry couldn't resist... [:D]

SINNER
23 May 2017, 06:49
Hahahahaha

usbp379
23 May 2017, 08:52
What's with all the 3 shot groups lately!
Because my 10 shot groups don't look nearly as good...

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Joelski
23 May 2017, 13:03
Because my 10 shot groups don't look nearly as good...

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My 10 yard groups look awesome!

[:D]

usbp379
23 May 2017, 17:22
Here I am getting some chrono data with my 150gr subsonic load.

Sorry the phone really picked up the exhaust fans.

https://youtu.be/iOAPHxo60dI


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BoilerUp
24 May 2017, 21:01
My Mom isn't blonde.

usbp379
26 May 2017, 05:51
Here's something that should interest 277WLV fans:

https://igg.me/at/KFo0H9rMinI/emal/16724823

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usbp379
9 June 2017, 06:43
277 Wolverine 150gr subsonic. 12.5in barrel. AAC 762-SDN-6 suppressor.

https://youtu.be/z32A2uwoIA4

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UWone77
9 June 2017, 14:48
Sounds good from a 12.5" Barrel.

usbp379
9 June 2017, 15:14
Here is a bit of data for CFE BLK. All rounds fired from 1X7 twist 12.5in barrel 10ft from chrono. Five rounds of each fired for data.

Mixed headstamp brass. S&B small rifle primer.

150gr Federal Fusion. 9.8gr CFE BLK
1041.8 fps average
38.91 standard deviation
1084 hi
1000 lo

90gr Speer TNT. 23.3 gr CFE BLK
2347.2 average
41.23 standard deviation
2413 hi
2311 lo

110gr Sierra Pro Hunter. 21.7gr CFE BLK
2149.0 average
36.38 standard deviation
2205 hi
2104 lo

Primers look good in all cases but use this data at your own risk!

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SINNER
9 June 2017, 20:36
150gr round at 1050 fps = 367ft lbs


Round is equal to a 9mm. Gutless at that velocity.

usbp379
9 June 2017, 21:53
150gr round at 1050 fps = 367ft lbs


Round is equal to a 9mm. Gutless at that velocity.
No doubt. But nice and quiet.

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mustangfreek
10 June 2017, 00:01
150gr round at 1050 fps = 367ft lbs


Round is equal to a 9mm. Gutless at that velocity.

ya I don't see the attraction here..id rather have a 300 blk out..

But for screwing around sure..

I see the mdws guy has that other new one out. 6mm mongoose I believe shortened slightly and necked for .243 bullets..interesting and looks better for hunting..

usbp379
10 June 2017, 03:30
ya I don't see the attraction here..id rather have a 300 blk out..

But for screwing around sure.

That's what I'm doing. Just screwing around. Playing with something a little different.

For a dedicated suppressed gun and/or something that's to be used exclusively with subsonic I would think the 300 Blackout is the better choice. There are any number of 180-240 grain choices for bullets. The down side is these bullets are generally pretty darned expensive and, depending on which bullet you choose, rarely on sale. For comparison I just bought 1,500 pulled .277cal 150 grain round nose for nine cents each. Combined with less than 10gr of gunpowder that's some cheap shooting right there!

Anyway, the 277's best use is probably with supersonic ammo. A 90gr Speer Gold Dot or Nosler bonded cruising along at around 2,400 fps from a 12" barrel ain't too shabby.



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usbp379
27 June 2017, 14:10
A new article in Handloader Magazine by Richard Mann. The article starts on page thirty-two.

https://issuu.com/magaread39/docs/handloader_augustseptember_2017

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usbp379
5 August 2017, 08:27
Mad Dog Weapons has convinced Starline to make properly headstamped 277WLV brass. If the info on the MDWS forum is correct this brass should be available in three or four months. It should be 30-40 cents per case.

Also, MDWS was able to convince Speer to sell the 90gr Gold Dot to JB's Firearms for use in commercially loaded ammo. Hopefully this will eventually lead to new (not pulldown) Gold Dot for the general public.




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usbp379
1 October 2017, 15:55
Here's a bit of an update.

I took the Wolverine to the 200 yard range this morning and put it on paper after getting it dialed in good at 100 yards.

With 23.2gr of CFE BLK and a 90gr TNT I'm printing about an inch and a half high at 100. My thinking here is that should put me more or less dead on at 200 and about 12in low at 300. That's my hope anyway.

So here is my 200 yard target with the 90gr load. This is two different groups of three rounds each. I fired the first three then walked down to check the target. I then fired another three rounds for a total of six.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170731/eb98bfed06ad9492ddd494cb533265cd.jpg



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usbp379
28 October 2017, 04:16
Mark Kexel on ar15podcast:

https://youtu.be/FYuMvIujCtg

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