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CarbonScoring
7 November 2014, 09:37
I got my NFA Trust set up by Coyote Rifleworks a couple days ago and should be getting it notarized soon. I've got a question about one section I was hoping someone else who has used an NFA Trust before couple clear up.

There is the ASSIGNMENT TO THE TRUST section. Do receivers for SBRs need to be added to here before the Form 1 can be filled out? I would assume so, but I just want to be sure.

Also, right now I'm planning on only making 1 SBR, but I may, at another time, make a second one, would it be a good idea to assign a second one at the same time, even though I'm only filing one Form 1 at this time? The issue of me or the trust owning them isn't a concern for me. I'm just wondering if it's easier to do it now rather than amending the trust at a later date.

Thanks for any clarity.

SwissyJim
7 November 2014, 09:48
I believe that once you have the stamp, then you assign it to the trust. When I get my stamp back is when I add to my schedule A - what I was told by the lawyer who set mine up. My SBR lower was added the same way. It was the first thing on my Trust... firearm-wise. We did add a 10$ bill when we set it up as he said they like to see something already in the Trust when submitted. Maybe malarkey, but he's set up more Trusts locally than anyone else so I went with it.

Gaspipeshooter
7 November 2014, 11:43
As Swissy said, the trust has to have an asset to be legal; a $5 bill, $10 bill, whatever. Rather than cash, I actually put the lower that will be my SBR as the first and only asset on the schedule A, the Assignment document.

Dstrbdmedic167
7 November 2014, 12:01
backing what Jim said you put things that are in your trust there after they're approved not before. A trust is a entity that has to have something of value to be a legal trust,. I used my grandfathers ruger super blackhawk I knew id never get rid of but it needs to be something with a serial number

gatordev
7 November 2014, 12:07
backing what Jim said you put things that are in your trust there after they're approved not before. A trust is a entity that has to have something of value to be a legal trust,. I used my grandfathers ruger super blackhawk I knew id never get rid of but it needs to be something with a serial number

Unfortunately, not all the examiners have historically agreed with this. In the past, Forms have been kicked back for not having an assignments page, even if there is no mention of it. Mine came with an assignments page but makes no mention of it in the actual text of the trust. Theoretically, one shouldn't be needed, but I've always erred on the side of caution and put a single item on an assignment and included it with the Form. And while it shouldn't be assigned until after it's been approved (for a Form 4), no one has complained to me yet for including it.

It seems the "right" answer isn't always what gets the paperwork completed.

CarbonScoring
7 November 2014, 12:19
Rather than cash, I actually put the lower that will be my SBR as the first and only asset on the schedule A, the Assignment document.


backing what Jim said you put things that are in your trust there after they're approved not before.

So there seems to be some difference of opinion here. Is this just the nature of the ATF; nothing is consistent?

So putting something like a $10 bill on there seems to make sense. If I do not put the lower receiver on there to begin with, then I just need to amend the trust after the approval?

UWone77
7 November 2014, 12:20
I only list them after they are approved.

Dstrbdmedic167
7 November 2014, 12:30
Initially before then after. At least that's how the examiner described it to me when I called because I was as confused as you were initially.

This is how it was best described to me. When you buy the lower it is bought in your name so you own it not the trust at this point. It is then transferred to your trust when your form is approved. So it should then be added to the assignment page as well as my beneficiaries page.

More food for thought is trust and suppressors . I can buy the suppressor but my trust does not gain ownership until it is approved by the ATF it is then added to my trust.

To be a legal, valid trust it needs to have something of value that is why most people put a $10 bill. I used the revolver and GasPipeShooter used the lower.

CarbonScoring
7 November 2014, 12:36
OK, thanks for the help everyone.

On a side note, since we're talking before or after, does the engraving need to be done before the approval? I'm mostly seeing people posting to get it engraved either before or while the paperwork is being processed.

Gaspipeshooter
7 November 2014, 12:38
OK, thanks for the help everyone.

On a side note, since we're talking before or after, does the engraving need to be done before the approval? I'm mostly seeing people posting to get it engraved either before or while the paperwork is being processed.

Before, since it will be a regulated item afterwards and you will not be able to ship it to get engraved.

UWone77
7 November 2014, 12:45
OK, thanks for the help everyone.

On a side note, since we're talking before or after, does the engraving need to be done before the approval? I'm mostly seeing people posting to get it engraved either before or while the paperwork is being processed.

Imagine your lower having a mishap while getting engraved after the approval, misspelling, or even worse, lost in the mail.

Stone
7 November 2014, 12:46
Before, since it will be a regulated item afterwards and you will not be able to ship it to get engraved.

I don't think that's correct. What if the form is denied? The process isn't complete until its engraved.

"A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA"

"While a receiver alone may be classified as a “firearm” under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length"

The receiver can be shipped before or after its approved. Its still "just a receiver" In fact you don't need to ship it through an FFL either since the engraving process is considered as a "repair"

SwissyJim
7 November 2014, 12:49
OK, thanks for the help everyone.

On a side note, since we're talking before or after, does the engraving need to be done before the approval? I'm mostly seeing people posting to get it engraved either before or while the paperwork is being processed.
First, my advise - get the engraving done first. That way, if it gets screwed up, you are not locked to that lower and can use another. My story, and reason why - I got my eForm approval back, and started looking at places to get the engraving done. Being a good little boy, I tried to go local and spend my money here. Did some asking and reading online, and found the place the local shops used. Went there, inquired, and went with them... did it while I waited. Now, mind you, this place has done a number for a local shop that is a Class III dealer and has SBR's and cans. (BTW, their reality show SUCKS). So the guy walks back, hands it to me, and I about shit. It looks like some kid was making a 'Worlds Greatest Dad' plaque with a dremel tool. It looks like SHIT. Chipped, not deep enough, HUGE lettering, just horrible. We had some words, and I left completely and totally pissed. BUT... the lower was already registered and I was told that was it - I could not 'transfer' th stamp to a different lower. I ended up sending it out to be done a second time, and had a great experience with Ident Marking. I had them do the area under the trigger guard so it's not obvious to anyone.

But I ended up needing to JB Weld the fubar engraving, and I spent HOURS adding layers, wet sanding, and making sure it was smooth. I planned on having it cerakoted, and we were pretty sure it would be covered. but, when it was done, there was a tone difference and you could see the area I had worked on thru the cerakote, even tho it was the same color. I ended up having some stickers made that cover that section of the magwell, and in all reality it turned out looking pretty cool.

But my advice is, get the engraving done first in case you get screwed like I did.

Stone
7 November 2014, 12:58
I got my NFA Trust set up by Coyote Rifleworks a couple days ago and should be getting it notarized soon. I've got a question about one section I was hoping someone else who has used an NFA Trust before couple clear up.

There is the ASSIGNMENT TO THE TRUST section. Do receivers for SBRs need to be added to here before the Form 1 can be filled out? I would assume so, but I just want to be sure.

Also, right now I'm planning on only making 1 SBR, but I may, at another time, make a second one, would it be a good idea to assign a second one at the same time, even though I'm only filing one Form 1 at this time? The issue of me or the trust owning them isn't a concern for me. I'm just wondering if it's easier to do it now rather than amending the trust at a later date.

Thanks for any clarity.

Think about that for a minute, how could you add an SBR to a trust that isn't an SBR until its approved and engraved. Remember that its not actually an SBR until you attach an un-pinned barrel under 16.1" or are in possession of said barrel.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/national-firearms-act-short-barreled-rifles-shotguns.html

Gaspipeshooter
7 November 2014, 14:40
I don't think that's correct. What if the form is denied? The process isn't complete until its engraved.

"A stripped receiver without a barrel does not meet the definition of a SBR or SBS under the NFA"

"While a receiver alone may be classified as a “firearm” under the Gun Control Act (GCA), SBRs and SBSs are classified in totality under the National Firearms Act (NFA). A firearm that meets the definition of a SBR consists of a rifle that has a barrel less than 16 inches in length"

The receiver can be shipped before or after its approved. Its still "just a receiver" In fact you don't need to ship it through an FFL either since the engraving process is considered as a "repair"

This is what I was interpreting for my answer:

Q: If I remove the short barrel from the registered SBR or SBS, is the receiver still subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations?

If the possessor retains control over the barrel or other parts required to assemble the SBR or SBS, the firearm would still be subject to NFA transfer and possession regulations. ATF recommends contacting State law enforcement officials to ensure compliance with state and local law.

gatordev
7 November 2014, 14:58
First, my advise - get the engraving done first. That way, if it gets screwed up, you are not locked to that lower and can use another. My story, and reason why - I got my eForm approval back, and started looking at places to get the engraving done. Being a good little boy, I tried to go local and spend my money here. Did some asking and reading online, and found the place the local shops used. Went there, inquired, and went with them... did it while I waited. Now, mind you, this place has done a number for a local shop that is a Class III dealer and has SBR's and cans. (BTW, their reality show SUCKS). So the guy walks back, hands it to me, and I about shit. It looks like some kid was making a 'Worlds Greatest Dad' plaque with a dremel tool. It looks like SHIT. Chipped, not deep enough, HUGE lettering, just horrible. We had some words, and I left completely and totally pissed. BUT... the lower was already registered and I was told that was it - I could not 'transfer' th stamp to a different lower. I ended up sending it out to be done a second time, and had a great experience with Ident Marking. I had them do the area under the trigger guard so it's not obvious to anyone.

But I ended up needing to JB Weld the fubar engraving, and I spent HOURS adding layers, wet sanding, and making sure it was smooth. I planned on having it cerakoted, and we were pretty sure it would be covered. but, when it was done, there was a tone difference and you could see the area I had worked on thru the cerakote, even tho it was the same color. I ended up having some stickers made that cover that section of the magwell, and in all reality it turned out looking pretty cool.

But my advice is, get the engraving done first in case you get screwed like I did.

I think the issue here is that there isn't any one perfect answer. For example... I engrave after. When I Form 1 a lower, it's in a Title 1 config until after it's engraved. But the last Form 1 I did, eForms didn't put anything in the "Additional Markings" box on the form, even though I put something in there when I filled out the form. So technically, nothing "has" to be there. Yes, I know what the handbook says, and when that lower becomes a Title 2 firearm (it gets a NFA upper) it will be engraved, but in the big picture of things, I find that the process isn't as black and white as the handbook says it is, but I protect myself by keeping it in a permanently non-NFA config until after all the paperwork is done. Plus, my local engraver does a great job, so I don't have to hope and guess.

CarbonScoring
7 November 2014, 15:19
All excellent points. I just got back from Atomic Tactical and their advice was also to engrave it first. To me that seems like the safest way to go. If the form 1 is denied, then I've just got a marred lower, rather than toying with jail time.


Think about that for a minute, how could you add an SBR to a trust that isn't an SBR until its approved and engraved. Remember that its not actually an SBR until you attach an un-pinned barrel under 16.1" or are in possession of said barrel.

I wasn't necessarily thinking of it as adding an SBR to the trust before it becomes and SBR. It was more along the lines of does the firearm that's being turned into an SBR need to be part of said trust first.

I think I'm squared away now, but feel free to keep the discussion going. It's interesting to see the wide variety of interpretations of the laws. [:)]

gatordev
8 November 2014, 10:28
All excellent points. I just got back from Atomic Tactical and their advice was also to engrave it first. To me that seems like the safest way to go. If the form 1 is denied, then I've just got a marred lower, rather than toying with jail time.



This is the part that always puzzles me. How and where does the jail time come from? Assuming you're not putting it in a Title 2 config prior to engraving it, how would anyone know it's missing something? I understand the argument that someone could look at your Form 1 and then look at the lower and see you've "committed perjury" because the Form doesn't match the lower, but really, I find that insanely unlikely because again, no one would know it's a NFA item because it would just look like a regular lower with nothing on it (or it would still have a 16" barrel on it).

I know it's dangerous to use common sense when dealing with the ATF as a whole, but here's another way to look at it... The Form 1 is permission to build the firearm. You can't build it until permission has been granted (and the tax has been paid). So engraving after the Form is approved again, seems reasonable, as you haven't actually manufactured the firearm. Or look at as if building a suppressor...you can't actually manufacture the suppressor until you've been given permission, but you're still supposed to know how it will be marked. Obviously you can't mark it until it's actually been manufactured.

Please understand, I'm mostly bringing this up as a discussion, and at the end of the day, whatever you're comfortable with is what's important. I was just expanding on the idea on why it seems like it really doesn't matter either way.

JoshAston
8 November 2014, 10:36
In the past ATF has confiscated unengraved guns and returned them engraved with an electro-pencil.

SwissyJim
8 November 2014, 10:55
...Plus, my local engraver does a great job, so I don't have to hope and guess.

And wouldn't you know it, since this debacle I have located a different local shop that DOES do a great job - laser, proper size/depth, while you wait....

Oh well. Learned a good lesson and got a kick ass sticker out of it! LOL

gatordev
8 November 2014, 11:15
In the past ATF has confiscated unengraved guns and returned them engraved with an electro-pencil.

Presumably these were Title 2 configured guns, otherwise, again, how would they know?

JoshAston
8 November 2014, 14:42
Yes

CarbonScoring
9 November 2014, 02:17
This is the part that always puzzles me. How and where does the jail time come from? Assuming you're not putting it in a Title 2 config prior to engraving it, how would anyone know it's missing something? I understand the argument that someone could look at your Form 1 and then look at the lower and see you've "committed perjury" because the Form doesn't match the lower, but really, I find that insanely unlikely because again, no one would know it's a NFA item because it would just look like a regular lower with nothing on it (or it would still have a 16" barrel on it).

I know it's dangerous to use common sense when dealing with the ATF as a whole, but here's another way to look at it... The Form 1 is permission to build the firearm. You can't build it until permission has been granted (and the tax has been paid). So engraving after the Form is approved again, seems reasonable, as you haven't actually manufactured the firearm. Or look at as if building a suppressor...you can't actually manufacture the suppressor until you've been given permission, but you're still supposed to know how it will be marked. Obviously you can't mark it until it's actually been manufactured.

Please understand, I'm mostly bringing this up as a discussion, and at the end of the day, whatever you're comfortable with is what's important. I was just expanding on the idea on why it seems like it really doesn't matter either way.

That's an interesting point. I never looked at it as permission to build, but thought it was a reclassification of the weapon, meaning it would, at the point of approval, be looked at as an SBR.

I still think it's probably safer to do it prior, just so the engraving is done correctly.

Danep21
9 November 2014, 12:34
Interesting responses about having assets on the trust before sending anything to ATF ($5 bill, $10 bill). This is malarkey. I started my trust, had absolutely nothing on it, and got my SBR and Suppressor approved in 7 months.

gatordev
9 November 2014, 13:58
That's an interesting point. I never looked at it as permission to build, but thought it was a reclassification of the weapon, meaning it would, at the point of approval, be looked at as an SBR.

Yeah, it's an application, not a change in status. You can actually have an approved stamp and then request a refund and void the stamp if you haven't built anything yet. Think of your lower as a chunk of metal that once you get your Form 1 approved, you can then "mold" into a new rifle (even though it's already a rifle).


I still think it's probably safer to do it prior, just so the engraving is done correctly.

Which is good enough reason to do it before. Again, just adding to the discussion.




Interesting responses about having assets on the trust before sending anything to ATF ($5 bill, $10 bill). This is malarkey. I started my trust, had absolutely nothing on it, and got my SBR and Suppressor approved in 7 months.

I think it depends on how the trust is written. Mine was the same as yours. Nothing needed to add to it to exist, it just does, but that's FL. Other states and other methods of how it's written may say otherwise.

CarbonScoring
12 December 2014, 10:58
Just got an email from the ATF confirming my Form 1 was approved. Now if Ident would just ship me back my lower. [bash]

Ride4frnt
12 December 2014, 11:13
Just got an email from the ATF confirming my Form 1 was approved. Now if Ident would just ship me back my lower. [bash]

Ahh the perks of having a neighbor with a laser machine.

CarbonScoring
12 December 2014, 11:21
Ahh the perks of having a neighbor with a laser machine.

Yeah, once I sent mine off the shop down the street hooked up with someone who can do it in a week. Oh well, it shouldn't be too long.

Ride4frnt
12 December 2014, 11:23
Yeah, once I sent mine off the shop down the street hooked up with someone who can do it in a week. Oh well, it shouldn't be too long.

Curious to know where on the lower you got yours engraved? On the mag well?

I thought the lady next door was also a notary which would've been perfect for my trust and engraving, but she let her notary go. Does still run an engraving business though and said as long as my receiver isn't raw aluminum she will engrave it.

CarbonScoring
12 December 2014, 11:27
I'm having it done on the right side above the hammer and trigger pins.

Ride4frnt
12 December 2014, 11:33
I'm having it done on the right side above the hammer and trigger pins.

Good idea. When I have mine done in not sure if I'll cerakote the receiver or just use some aluminum black over the engraving. Glad you got your approval in a timely fashion. Need my trust notarized and I'm filing.

Ride4frnt
16 December 2014, 12:02
For those of you in the know. I had my trust created with mine, my fathers and my brothers full middle names. When we sign, do we need to sign our middle names as it appears printed in the trust, or should I just have that changed to middle initials?

Dstrbdmedic167
16 December 2014, 12:22
For those of you in the know. I had my trust created with mine, my fathers and my brothers full middle names. When we sign, do we need to sign our middle names as it appears printed in the trust, or should I just have that changed to middle initials?

You could probably just sign as you/they normally would. But you can always call CRW to verify.

CarbonScoring
16 December 2014, 18:44
Mine has my middle name. I signed my full name, including my middle name.

Also, just as an FYI, the Eform Form 1 (and probably the Form 4), only put in your first, last and middle initial. Even though my trust has my full middle name, everything went through fine.

Ride4frnt
16 December 2014, 19:32
Mine has my middle name. I signed my full name, including my middle name.

Also, just as an FYI, the Eform Form 1 (and probably the Form 4), only put in your first, last and middle initial. Even though my trust has my full middle name, everything went through fine.

Okay. I'll call coyote to clarify, but thanks for your insight. I don't typically sign my middle name and if I'm being completely honest, my signature looks like a toddlers scribbles anyways.

CarbonScoring
17 December 2014, 01:08
I never sign my middle name either. Just practice a couple times. If it isn't perfect, who cares. It's being notarized, so the Notary is saying it's a legit signature.