50 Yard Zero - At 10 Yards

[Thompson]

I just found this video: What Zero do you use? Frank Proctor uses a 50 Zero at 10 yards, check it out! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-FUsH8jt6E&feature=youtu.be)

Curious if anyone's heard of this idea before. I'd assume this works, since it came from Frank Proctor.

Mostly curious since, the only shooting range in my area is an indoor range, 21 yards max - so doing 10 yards wont be a problem compared to 50 yards.

[toolboxluis00200]

saw that on my FB very interesting

[Thompson]

saw that on my FB very interesting
That's how I found it too haha

[voodoo_man]

I'll stick to my 100m zero

[Kopis]

I always use that to get me close then move to 100 so I'm not wasting anmo

[Thompson]

I'll stick to my 100m zero
I wouldn't do 10 if I didn't have to, but unfortunately I'm limited in my resources.

[Pyzik]

I use a 50 yard zero.

Luckily I have a 50 yard indoor range I use but it's nice to know I CAN do it at 10 if I need to.

[Thompson]

I use a 50 yard zero.

Luckily I have a 50 yard indoor range I use but it's nice to know I CAN do it at 10 if I need to.
Have you ever tried doing that at 10 yards at all? Then comparing the subsequent groups?

Wish I had a 50 yard range in my area; but in terms of public ranges - the 21 yard indoor range is all I got :(

[Pyzik]

Have you ever tried doing that at 10 yards at all? Then comparing the subsequent groups?

Wish I had a 50 yard range in my area; but in terms of public ranges - the 21 yard indoor range is all I got :(

I prefer the outdoor range that's an hour away but I'll use the indoor when I don't want to drive. It's about a half mile from me. :P

To answer your question, no I have not. But I plan to with my AK that needs confirmation.

[Thompson]

But I plan to with my AK that needs confirmation.
Please let me know how that turns out; as this is my only known option at this point.

... I wish I had a range only half a mile from me. Closest is about 45 minutes away :P

[Stone]

Its actually a really simple math equation that uses your sight over bore measurement and the distance you want to zero at. Lets say SOB is 2.5" and you want the zero at 50 yards. 10 yards is 1/5th the distance to 50 yards so at zero yards POI and POA are 2.5" offset. If you divide the 2.5" by 5 it gives you .50 or half an inch for every 10 yards. Since at 10 yards you still have 40 yards left to hit at 50 yards you would simply take your SOB of 2.5" and minus a half inch or 1/5th the distance. So at 10 yards your POI will be 2" below your point of aim. He didn't do it on the video but to make this real simple you have to draw another crosshair or bulls eye 2" below your point of aim and this will be your point of impact. This can be done at any range below your intended zero.

[alamo5000]

I just found this video: What Zero do you use? Frank Proctor uses a 50 Zero at 10 yards, check it out! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-FUsH8jt6E&feature=youtu.be)

Curious if anyone's heard of this idea before. I'd assume this works, since it came from Frank Proctor.

Mostly curious since, the only shooting range in my area is an indoor range, 21 yards max - so doing 10 yards wont be a problem compared to 50 yards.

What kind of optic are you using? What is your 'style'/goal/aim? In other words define your rifle and it's purpose.

[alamo5000]

I'll stick to my 100m zero

I just did a 100 yard zero. Twice. I did it once and then had to start over because my scope mount came loose. My whole goal was to be shooting at farther distances and my scope is calibrated (at 4x) for a 100 yard zero.

I can safely say I am now able to get 1" groups at 100 yards (if I take my time on the shots)... if I am shooting something bigger it's just that much easier to hit.

[Thompson]

So at 10 yards your POI will be 2" below your point of aim. He didn't do it on the video but to make this real simple you have to draw another crosshair or bulls eye 2" below your point of aim and this will be your point of impact. This can be done at any range below your intended zero.
Ok oh - this makes sense. So basically, wherever my shots are landing - I want to move my POI to where it's 2" below my POA?


What kind of optic are you using? What is your 'style'/goal/aim? In other words define your rifle and it's purpose.
I'm just getting in to owning my first AR -- so irons it will be. My purpose - honestly pretty much anything and everything right now (home/self defense, training, plinking, SHTF, etc etc), just as the name implies: the Jack [of all trades] Carbine.

[alamo5000]

Ok oh - this makes sense. So basically, wherever my shots are landing - I want to move my POI to where it's 2" below my POA?


I'm just getting in to owning my first AR -- so irons it will be. My purpose - honestly pretty much anything and everything right now (home/self defense, training, plinking, SHTF, etc etc), just as the name implies: the Jack [of all trades] Carbine.


No it won't be just two inches... it depends on your sight height. This is why I am asking what you are shooting.

Basically measure from the imaginary line down your sights (where you line up to take aim down to the center of the bore of your barrel. How high is it?

For example from the center bore of my rifle to the center of my scope is 3".... lay your AR on it's side and measure with a tape or ruler from the center bore of the barrel to say the middle of your back peep hole.

[Thompson]

No it won't be just two inches... it depends on your sight height. This is why I am asking what you are shooting.

Basically measure from the imaginary line down your sights (where you line up to take aim down to the center of the bore of your barrel. How high is it?

For example from the center bore of my rifle to the center of my scope is 3".... lay your AR on it's side and measure with a tape or ruler from the center bore of the barrel to say the middle of your back peep hole.
Couldn't give you an exact number; I don't own one - yet. But lets just pretend that height over bore was 2". At 10 yards, that means I have to hold 1.6" below it right?

[alamo5000]

Couldn't give you an exact number; I don't own one - yet. But lets just pretend that height over bore was 2". At 10 yards, that means I have to hold 1.6" below it right?

OK lets pretend that it's 2"... we will use a calculator online to figure it out....I will use 50 yard zero for demonstration purposes.

Lets say you are using this ammo for your test/zero:

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-REM-55-GR-FMJBT/

55 grain FMJ ammo from Hornaday.

Now go here:

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

and plug in the info on your round's info.

This particular calculator only goes in 25 yard increments but that's ok...

Hit calculate... at 25 yards the results show your shot will be -.9 inches. (low) which at your 21 yard range that's going to be pretty close to where you want to be. Aim at X and your shot should hit directly below where you aimed by .9 inches. Just roughly eyeballing it call it 1" to compensate for it not being a true 25 yards.... you can calculate it.... but when you are talking .1 inches for this kind of thing... there is more shooter error involved than that.

But at that range if you have a led sled or something where you can hold your rifle very still...try to get really close groups. Your horizontal and vertical planes both need to be zeroed.

Bullets do not fly in a straight line. They leave the muzzle (which is below the sight/scope plane) and the round rises then it arcs down... each round you need to check ballistics. Different grain weights act differently and different calibers definitely act differently.

I would definitely get decent ammo for your zero and use the same grain weights throughout the process. It's not going to be huge but just to be on the safe side be consistent.

[tact]

I'll stick with a 300 zero....

[Thompson]

Oh ok - got it.

By decent ammo - what are we talking about here? Something like Federal XM193?

[alamo5000]

Oh ok - got it.

By decent ammo - what are we talking about here? Something like Federal XM193?

For what you are going to be doing just stick with a name brand and the same box of the same brand of the same grain weight. Look on that manufacturer's site (like I just showed you) to make sure all the info is there so you can do calculations. If you use cheap russian steel ammo there may not be data.

But the main thing is having a consistent muzzle velocity and consistent bullet weight and shape.

When you really get technical and into shooting farther out ammo makes a huge difference. With cheap ammo your 'charge' or amount or type of gunpowder might not be consistent...so one shot might leave the muzzle at 2700 fps and the next might leave at 3200 fps... the better the ammo the more these things are consistent.

But for a general purpose 50 yard zero just check the websites, and do your homework.... THEN go buy something....there are several good ammo manufacturers... but you don't need to go buy some match grade ammo for that purpose. Just something name brand and fairly good. The one I showed you above... that's a very good name brand company.... but don't sweat too much over it.

I am trying to not be to technical here because what you are doing really isn't all that technical. With decent ammo and a decent rest where you can stabilize your gun so you can get more precise aim points...that's going to be the whole key in this deal if you ask me.

[Thompson]

I am trying to not be to technical here because what you are doing really isn't all that technical. With decent ammo and a decent rest where you can stabilize your gun so you can get more precise aim points...that's going to be the whole key in this deal if you ask me.
I'm technically oriented ... just saying haha [:D]

[alamo5000]

I'm technically oriented ... just saying haha [:D]

Cool.

Sorry if I came across like I was sounding otherwise. No harm or foul intended.

[Stone]

[QUOTE=Thompson;74527]Ok oh - this makes sense. So basically, wherever my shots are landing - I want to move my POI to where it's 2" below my POA?

POA will always be the same, preferably the bulls eye or mark you make on a target. POI as a goal, will be 2" below your POA. Remember that the barrel shoots where it shoots and that is a fixed variable. When you shoot and then adjust your optic or irons, you actually move the barrel on the next shot to hopefully align the sights closer to where the barrel shoots. So in all reality you are adjusting the sights to where the barrel shoots. Hope that makes sense. Do you have a rifle yet? Like Alamo said, these numbers are hypothetically based on a 2.5" sight over bore. And definitely use some quality ammo when zeroing a rifle. Junk ammo will drive you insane...

[Thompson]

Sorry if I came across like I was sounding otherwise. No harm or foul intended.
Naa, you're fine.




POA will always be the same, preferably the bulls eye or mark you make on a target. POI as a goal, will be 2" below your POA. Remember that the barrel shoots where it shoots and that is a fixed variable. When you shoot and then adjust your optic or irons, you actually move the barrel on the next shot to hopefully align the sights closer to where the barrel shoots. So in all reality you are adjusting the sights to where the barrel shoots. Hope that makes sense. Do you have a rifle yet? Like Alamo said, these numbers are hypothetically based on a 2.5" sight over bore. And definitely use some quality ammo when zeroing a rifle. Junk ammo will drive you insane...
Not yet - hoping to before Christmas. Curious - what ammo do you use for zeroing?

[alamo5000]

Curious - what ammo do you use for zeroing?

I used the exact one I put in the post with the calculator.

That is the specific one I used. If I generally want better performance I have all the stuff to reload .223 ... I just have to go make more of it. Generally I reload what I shoot and have done so for quite some time. Not only is it cheaper but you have control. Problem is you can't mass produce the stuff unless I borrow an automated set up....I will probably do just that eventually...get my load right with the stuff I have them go churn out a bucket full for plinking around.

Or I could just buy some match grade ammo...but its overkill to some degree....so I probably won't go there.

I got to where I can do 1" at 100 yards with that hornaday stuff and that to me is more than sufficient.

[Thompson]

(hmmm I swear I posted a response yesterday morning .... guess I'll repost)

Regarding zeroing - since my barrel is chambered for 5.56, with there be some accuracy disparities since chamber pressures are different for .223 vs 5.56?

[alamo5000]

(hmmm I swear I posted a response yesterday morning .... guess I'll repost)

Regarding zeroing - since my barrel is chambered for 5.56, with there be some accuracy disparities since chamber pressures are different for .223 vs 5.56?

You will see almost no differences-if any at all between the two. Read online and play with various ballistics calculators... the bullet trajectory is almost the same.

The differences come with different grain weights... but usually those differences show up at greater distances.

Here is some more info more or less about 'accuracy'... more info lets you know how it works which can equate to an easier time sorting all this out. Lets assume we had a magical machine that was stable and could stay perfectly still... (one bullet manufacturer from what I hear has an underground tunnel with a machine where they can attach barrels to it)...with that there is zero shooter error...

The things that effect accuracy are (in no order) the barrel...if the bore of the barrel is sloppy it can have little knicks or small imperfections or if it's chrome lined not be exactly smooth...if you round travels down the barrel and hits an impediment it can actually damage the bullet thus causing a knuckle ball effect in flight. Barrel length also matters.

The projectile itself also has to be precision. perfectly around and balanced for flight. This is very high end advanced rocket science stuff, but more or less for our purposes with cheap ammo the actual bullet might not be balanced... and at 3000+fps that balance matters. If a stray round is front or back heavy or whatever....no bueno.

The charge of the round has to be consistent round to round. If one comes out at 3200fps and the other comes out at 2700 fps... it will be way off. Cheapo ammo companies kinda sorta eyeball it sometimes.

The actual shape of the barrel (physically)... when you shoot the barrel has flexes in it. Big thick bull barrels will flex less than say a super thin barrel.

Heat also matters as you go along and shoot a lot. Beyond a certain point hotter = less accurate (we are talking precision shooting here) and usually at a distance.

Matching your twist rate of your barrel with grain weight of bullets and the charge behind it all = a soup that needs to be right. Really accurate pro shooters that are shooting longer distances often make their own rounds to match their barrel.

Now for our basic 'zeroing' we already said use better ammo, but a bigger factor will be in the ability to hold the rifle still a reproduce a good aim point. It also depends on the kinds of sights you are working on. Irons are one thing scopes are another. But holding the gun still, and I mean really still aids a lot in sighting. Once you are able to hit paper things to hold your gun still matter to get zero.

Also understand your sights. Does it use MOA or MIL? Say you aim dead center but get a shot 6 inches high and 6 inches right... which direction do you move what? It's all calculated out with many sights but reading the manual on whatever sights you have does help then read up online about that. Then you can say '4 clicks to the right, 6 clicks up' or whatever so it takes a whole lot of the guess work out of it. To me that beats blasting through 200 rounds 'tinkering' and getting frustrated.

I know I gave you a lot more info than you asked for... but the main things to concern yourself with is good constant ammo...the ability to hold the rifle still...and an understanding of how whatever your particular sights are work.

But between .223 and .556 of the same grain weight you will see very little difference. Maybe some, but we are talking fractions of an inch or less.

[Thompson]

I know I gave you a lot more info than you asked for... but the main things to concern yourself with is good constant ammo...the ability to hold the rifle still...and an understanding of how whatever your particular sights are work.
There's no such thing; knowledge = power [:)]

Thanks for all of your informative posts. I've pretty much nailed AR-15's, the components and the mechanics behind it. But now I'm trying to delve into the deeper subjects (ie: ballistics).

[Dark1]

This is nothing new the U.S. Army has been doing 25 yard 300 yard zeros for years.

[Thompson]

This is nothing new the U.S. Army has been doing 25 yard 300 yard zeros for years.
Right - but that's zeroing for 25 yards, at 25 yards. This is zeroing for 50 yards, at 25 yards.

[Dark1]

Right - but that's zeroing for 25 yards, at 25 yards. This is zeroing for 50 yards, at 25 yards.

No the Army zeroing at 25 yards for a 300 yard zero. you shoot at 25 yards than use that zero to shoot your qualifications witch go from 50-300 yards. With a CCO or ACOG you shot 2.4" low on your 25 yard target and with iron sights you shoot .5" low of center for a 300 yard zero