Rail Systems? Your opinion?

[alamo5000]

I recently saw this video on youtube:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnS9AvFRVYA

I recently did my build and I chose an M-Lok rail system.

I would like to hear forum member's opinion of this sytem, keymod, and any other kind of system that may be out there.

Simply put, what do you guys think of these various systems?

[Ride4frnt]

I have a few normal picatinny rails, 2 keymod and now an mlok. I liked the usefulness of the normal picatinny rail, but I don't like the rail itself. I think having 15" of rail on 4 sides of the rifle is a bit much. Now with these new interfaces you can put accessories where you want them without all that rail space. Don't have a preference over keymod or mlok as far as looks, but I will say that mlok is going to take off big since it is backed by magpul.

[UWone77]

I think this question will best be answered in another year or two.

I'm old school, I still like quad rails. Plenty of accessories, and I can place them anywhere.

[alamo5000]

but I will say that mlok is going to take off big since it is backed by magpul.

I never knew about this difference until I was trying to buy a rail, but at first look I tend to agree that the M-Lok system is going to be much bigger (over time). Also per the video above it is an open source system and supposedly not only magpul, but 30 other companies have signed up to make M-Lok bits and pieces.

The old school quad rail thing seems to me to be left in the dust, especially when you can have all these legos to put what you want where on your rail. The idea is definitely solid (meaning the concept of customization)... I have no experience with keymod and only minimal experience with M-Lok...but one thing I have noticed is M-Lok accessories aren't just wildly available. I've only found one or maybe two places that have anything. One is directly from Magpul and the other is from Midway. Outside of that finding things is a hunt.

Also as a first time AR builder I think it's vital that the industry as a whole educate more people on these kinds of options.

[alamo5000]

I think this question will best be answered in another year or two.

I'm old school, I still like quad rails. Plenty of accessories, and I can place them anywhere.

Yes it is new, and yes quad rails work... but they are heavy... as a newbie, merely on concept alone I am sort of partial to customization... IF you can get the parts to do it.

[UWone77]

Yes it is new, and yes quad rails work... but they are heavy... as a newbie, merely on concept alone I am sort of partial to customization... IF you can get the parts to do it.

Weight is negligible. I mean look at your build, you used a Billet Receiver set and a full size scope.

Unless you're looking for the lightest build possible, any weight savings is usually negated by other add ons.

[Ride4frnt]

I never knew about this difference until I was trying to buy a rail, but at first look I tend to agree that the M-Lok system is going to be much bigger (over time). Also per the video above it is an open source system and supposedly not only magpul, but 30 other companies have signed up to make M-Lok bits and pieces.

The old school quad rail thing seems to me to be left in the dust, especially when you can have all these legos to put what you want where on your rail. The idea is definitely solid (meaning the concept of customization)... I have no experience with keymod and only minimal experience with M-Lok...but one thing I have noticed is M-Lok accessories aren't just wildly available. I've only found one or maybe two places that have anything. One is directly from Magpul and the other is from Midway. Outside of that finding things is a hunt.

Also as a first time AR builder I think it's vital that the industry as a whole educate more people on these kinds of options.

Keymod is open source too. What I meant was, mlok is magpuls baby. They don't make keymod accessories, and with a company that big backing mlok, I think it's gonna take off.

[KevinBLC]

Also as a first time AR builder I think it's vital that the industry as a whole educate more people on these kinds of options.

Most of the AR market is guys trying to build the absolute cheapest AR they can put together and claim it's better than a colt. You're in the minority, you took the time to figure out what you wanted and learn the differences. Most guys are trying to build this magical gun for $500 or less. They don't care about Keymod vs mlok vs quad because that $30 handguard on ebay is just as good.

[alamo5000]

Weight is negligible. I mean look at your build, you used a Billet Receiver set and a full size scope.

Unless you're looking for the lightest build possible, any weight savings is usually negated by other add ons.

True. When I pick up my build, its not light. It's solid. I like solid. I will have to weigh it and see really how much it weighs.

I guess that's sort of the point of the thread... 'gimmick or awesome'? and to get an idea from forum members what they think.

When I ordered my rail initially I got the keymod version but they were out of stock, so they called an asked if I would like to wait or go for the M-Lok... to be honest at the time it didn't matter to me either way. I was operating out of ignorance more than anything but I got sort of a quick education on it to make a choice.

Ever since I have been thinking about it and looking around for M-lok options...and like I said, they aren't out in full force yet, that much I've discovered.

[alamo5000]

Keymod is open source too. What I meant was, mlok is magpuls baby. They don't make keymod accessories, and with a company that big backing mlok, I think it's gonna take off.

I didn't know keymod was open source... learned something else new today :) I am hoping Magpul (or others) get on board and step up... many retailers and sellers simply don't know themselves... so if it IS going to take off Magpul has some work to do.

[FortTom]

I currently have 4 kemod rails, just waitning to assemble two of them. I have two rifles with Centurion C4 rails. For me, the big winner of keymod is the small O.D. I'm putting one on my AR-10, but it probably won't have any attachments except a bi-pod, to which I have to attach a 4 in. piece of keymod rail. (Ironic, ain't it?) I can't comment on M-Lok, I haven't shot/used one yet. I'm assuming as far as size and handling, it's about the same as Keymod, not sure but it appears to be about the same thing, just different mounting "holes".

Not sure if this helps or hinders.

FT

[alamo5000]

Most of the AR market is guys trying to build the absolute cheapest AR they can put together and claim it's better than a colt. You're in the minority, you took the time to figure out what you wanted and learn the differences. Most guys are trying to build this magical gun for $500 or less. They don't care about Keymod vs mlok vs quad because that $30 handguard on ebay is just as good.

Thank you :) LOL. You can easily say I did my homework on what i was going for for a long time, long before I ever did a build. I probably researched two years on stuff but I didn't know about this whole M-Lok vs Keymod thing until I went to order a rail... but no matter how much you look stuff up and look at things there are always unknowns... and this was an unknown for me for sure. I just kind of decided one or the other on a whim. The form factor (IE that looks awesome) vs the function factor (that really does work) don't always jive up...

Now I am in the mode of going 'this is what I have, now how do I make it all work'...

[alamo5000]

I currently have 4 kemod rails, just waitning to assemble two of them. I have two rifles with Centurion C4 rails. For me, the big winner of keymod is the small O.D. I'm putting one on my AR-10, but it probably won't have any attachments except a bi-pod, to which I have to attach a 4 in. piece of keymod rail. (Ironic, ain't it?) I can't comment on M-Lok, I haven't shot/used one yet. I'm assuming as far as size and handling, it's about the same as Keymod, not sure but it appears to be about the same thing, just different mounting "holes".

Not sure if this helps or hinders.

FT

Supposedly from a manufacturers standpoint making M-Lok rails is easier to do and hence cheaper to manufacture. Same with the accessories vs the keymod system. I would imagine the manufacturing of the add ons would be about the same but the manufacturing of the rail itself will be cheaper if you go M-Lok.

[Ride4frnt]

I currently have 4 kemod rails, just waitning to assemble two of them. I have two rifles with Centurion C4 rails. For me, the big winner of keymod is the small O.D. I'm putting one on my AR-10, but it probably won't have any attachments except a bi-pod, to which I have to attach a 4 in. piece of keymod rail. (Ironic, ain't it?) I can't comment on M-Lok, I haven't shot/used one yet. I'm assuming as far as size and handling, it's about the same as Keymod, not sure but it appears to be about the same thing, just different mounting "holes".

Not sure if this helps or hinders.

FT

Get yourself a primary weapons or Odin k pod bipod mount if you're using a harris bipod.

[Thompson]

I'm assuming as far as size and handling, it's about the same as Keymod, not sure but it appears to be about the same thing, just different mounting "holes".
According to Bill Geissele, he said that Keymod is not as structurally as sound as MLOK. Now, I don't know enough about material sciences to prove/disprove this (... haven't gotten that far in engineering classes yet) ... but Bill's a mechanical engineer, so I'll say his word is good.

Is Keymod that popular of a mounting option? Doesn't really seem like; at least not to me.

[UWone77]

According to Bill Geissele, he said that Keymod is not as structurally as sound as MLOK. Now, I don't know enough about material sciences to prove/disprove this (... haven't gotten that far in engineering classes yet) ... but Bill's a mechanical engineer, so I'll say his word is good.

Is Keymod that popular of a mounting option? Doesn't really seem like; at least not to me.

After messing around with Slipper's (Arisaka Defense) Mounts, M-Lok in my opinion is a superior mounting system.

[Ride4frnt]

According to Bill Geissele, he said that Keymod is not as structurally as sound as MLOK. Now, I don't know enough about material sciences to prove/disprove this (... haven't gotten that far in engineering classes yet) ... but Bill's a mechanical engineer, so I'll say his word is good.

Is Keymod that popular of a mounting option? Doesn't really seem like; at least not to me.

By looking at it and not using it, mlok looks superior for sure. I would think keymod accessories would fall off much easier.

[alamo5000]

According to Bill Geissele, he said that Keymod is not as structurally as sound as MLOK. Now, I don't know enough about material sciences to prove/disprove this (... haven't gotten that far in engineering classes yet) ... but Bill's a mechanical engineer, so I'll say his word is good.

Is Keymod that popular of a mounting option? Doesn't really seem like; at least not to me.

My M-Lok seems more solid merely because it has more mass to it or it feels like it does. I think part of the reason Keymod is popular is because Noveske uses it a lot, and we all know that bad ass pictures on the internet sell stuff :)

I doubt people are going to crush their rails but I personally think the M-Lok I have feels more solid. Then again I think a big part of that is SLR Rifleworks makes one HELL of a good rail. I handled a Geisele rail and I am glad I opted for the SLR between the two.

[Slippers]

My company is small and hasn't been in business very long, but I can assure you, we have been selling far more keymod accessories than m-lok. 10:1 ratio, easily. Part of the reason is that there are not nearly as many m-lok handguards out there yet. Another reason is that some of the bigger and more well-known firearms companies like BCM (who the designer of keymod now works for), Daniel Defense, and Knights Armament all have keymod handguards. And, of course, keymod has had a 2 year head start.

From an accessory manufacturing standpoint, keymod is cheaper. Why? Keymod nuts cost less than m-lok nuts. Regardless of volume.

The only reason that everyone says m-lok is cheaper to manufacture is due to keymod requiring a special chamfer on the back side of each slot. It's a small tool, since it has to fit through the slot, which means it's easier to break and can't go very fast. The thing is, you see every aluminum m-lok handguard with a chamfer around each slot on the outside, so it's not like cutting a keymod handguard adds all that much extra machine time. Some? Yes. But not that much.

[alamo5000]

By looking at it and not using it, mlok looks superior for sure. I would think keymod accessories would fall off much easier.


I've never used Keymod but I think the notion of things falling off isn't really a concern for the most part. That is unless you just don't put it on right or tighten the thing down enough.

[alamo5000]

My company is small and hasn't been in business very long, but I can assure you, we have been selling far more keymod accessories than m-lok. 10:1 ratio, easily. Part of the reason is that there are not nearly as many m-lok handguards out there yet. Another reason is that some of the bigger and more well-known firearms companies like BCM (who the designer of keymod now works for), Daniel Defense, and Knights Armament all have keymod handguards. And, of course, keymod has had a 2 year head start.

From an accessory manufacturing standpoint, keymod is cheaper. Why? Keymod nuts cost less than m-lok nuts. Regardless of volume.

The only reason that everyone says m-lok is cheaper to manufacture is due to keymod requiring a special chamfer on the back side of each slot. It's a small tool, since it has to fit through the slot, which means it's easier to break and can't go very fast. The thing is, you see every aluminum m-lok handguard with a chamfer around each slot on the outside, so it's not like cutting a keymod handguard adds all that much extra machine time. Some? Yes. But not that much.


Wow, that is one of the best, most informative posts I've seen on the subject.

I think the fact that many people use off the shelf guns... and those manufacturers were early adopters of keymod means a whole lot. 2 years head start is a big deal, but to me thats just a snap shot in time. I think many of the bigger gun manufacturers might start putting m-lok options up on their rails and letting people have a choice. Seems like keymod was the only game in town for a while there.

If there is one thing I know gun companies like to sell guns. If you want one in metallic purple they are happy to oblige. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't start giving more m-lok rail options for their off the shelf guns... but who knows.

Once again your post is very informative.

[Slippers]

Oh, I'd also like to say that m-lok almost always requires a visual of the nuts to make sure they turned 90 degrees and are giving the most surface area contact on the inside of the handguard. The only thing that makes the nut turn is the friction from the screw spinning through it. If you apply any side pressure on the accessory the nut can bind up just enough to not spin, so you'll tighten it right back through the m-lok slot.

And, if you loosen the nut too far, it'll spin freely on the inside of the handguard and refuse to tighten back up. You basically have to lift the accessory off the handguard just a bit so the nut dips into the m-lok slot and is held in place while you thread it in a turn or so.

Definitely requires a little trial and error. I'm pretty technically inclined, and it doesn't work perfectly for me every time.

[alamo5000]

After messing around with Slipper's (Arisaka Defense) Mounts, M-Lok in my opinion is a superior mounting system.

Tell us why you think that way if you don't mind? Just curious since you are obviously pretty experienced and know gear pretty well.

[alamo5000]

Oh, I'd also like to say that m-lok almost always requires a visual of the nuts to make sure they turned 90 degrees and are giving the most surface area contact on the inside of the handguard. The only thing that makes the nut turn is the friction from the screw spinning through it. If you apply any side pressure on the accessory the nut can bind up just enough to not spin, so you'll tighten it right back through the m-lok slot.

And, if you loosen the nut too far, it'll spin freely on the inside of the handguard and refuse to tighten back up. You basically have to lift the accessory off the handguard just a bit so the nut dips into the m-lok slot and is held in place while you thread it in a turn or so.

Definitely requires a little trial and error. I'm pretty technically inclined, and it doesn't work perfectly for me every time.


I haven't done any side by side comparisons here but on the few M-Lok things that I do have once you put them on right they are there and aren't moving. Yes you have to make sure they are on there right, but to me that's basic of just about anything.

Also I kind of like the look of the M-Lok rail myself. I think it looks a bit nicer than the keymod, but that's just me.

[alamo5000]

From an accessory manufacturing standpoint, keymod is cheaper. Why? Keymod nuts cost less than m-lok nuts. Regardless of volume.

If you wouldn't mind, like what are we talking here? 10% cheaper? 20%?

Just your best guess...and why they are cheaper (or more expensive)

[alamo5000]

I also wonder who else (other than magpul) actually makes M-Lok accessories...I am in the market...

So far I've only stumbled across a couple at best... apparently there are over 30 companies making m-lok stuff but I have no idea who.

EDIT: Look what I found....

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/26/list-of-manufacturers-adopting-the-new-magpul-m-lok-system/

[alamo5000]

More info:

http://www.thenewrifleman.com/keymod-vs-m-lok-which-will-set-the-standard/

[UWone77]

I also wonder who else (other than magpul) actually makes M-Lok accessories...I am in the market...

So far I've only stumbled across a couple at best... apparently there are over 30 companies making m-lok stuff but I have no idea who.

EDIT: Look what I found....

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/04/26/list-of-manufacturers-adopting-the-new-magpul-m-lok-system/

Much like KeyMod it's going to take some time to get traction. In fact look at KeyMod, it basically took 2 years and we're just starting to see accessories.

[alamo5000]

"Q:Why the M-LOK system and not another existing open source system such as KeyMod?
A:In our experience, KeyMod is not a suitable mounting system for polymer products, because a conical nut is used to secure the accessory in place. On plastic materials, the conical mating surfaces of KeyMod will either promote cracking or loosening due to creep and deformation of the material. In addition, KeyMod’s undercut also requires the use of specialized cutters for CNC operations or complex injection mold designs. As a result of the KeyMod design, the QC process becomes significant with high volume manufacturing, resulting in increased time and cost when compared to manufacturing the M-LOK system."

Page 8

http://magpul.commercev3.com/downloads/M-LOK_Release_FAQs.pdf



"Q:How secure is the M-LOK T-Nut?
A:The engagement surface area and the strength of all hardware has been tested in live fire, shock, drop, vibration under heat cycle, and direct force pull out in excess of 300 lbs with no loosening of the system."

Page 9

[CarbonScoring]

I was not a fan of modular handguards early on because they felt too skinny to me. I also liked the way 1913 rail would dig into my hand, giving me a real solid grip.

The thing is, how often are the rails used on the back 1/2 to 2/3 of the handguard? I put a vertical grip on the bottom (maybe a bipod as far forward on the bottom) and a light as far forward on the side as I can get. I have no need for any more rail (assuming there is a QD on the back of the rail). Therefore, my preference, in most cases, is for something like a Geissele Mk4 which has permanent rails up front and the rest is smooth.

My preference now is for M-lok smilply because I like the look of it better. Since most of the handguard will be exposed, I'd rather see the nice slots of M-lok that the industrial racking look of keymod. Both systems work fine though. Each seems to lock up fine and I don't feel any movement once secured.


Oh, I'd also like to say that m-lok almost always requires a visual of the nuts to make sure they turned 90 degrees and are giving the most surface area contact on the inside of the handguard.

This would be my one criticism of M-lok. Keymod just fits in and screws down; no messing about. M-lok, while I've never had any issues, does need to have the nuts set up properly to get the right friction to engage.

[Thompson]

I was not a fan of modular handguards early on because they felt too skinny to me. I also liked the way 1913 rail would dig into my hand, giving me a real solid grip.
I'm the opposite for this. Never liked handguards that didn't have that nice fit around my hands, like a Geissele does .... and I don't like cheese graters - well at least sharp ones; rounded/smoothed out - different story.

UW - you made a good point about the start time of Keymod accessories. Like you said, I guess only time will tell to see which one is liked more.

[Slippers]

If you wouldn't mind, like what are we talking here? 10% cheaper? 20%?

Just your best guess...and why they are cheaper (or more expensive)
Up to 40% cheaper for keymod nuts based on my suppliers. Generally, the 10-24 screws for mlok also cost more than the 8-32 screws for keymod.

We're not talking about a very large amount of money, but on a part you want to sell for $20 an extra $2 makes a huge difference when you're trying to fit in distributor pricing.

[Pyzik]

Being that I got into the AR game when modular systems were taking over the 1913 I've never even experienced full quad rails (other than shooting a friend's rifle, once).

Since I got the Noveske handed down to me, Keymod is really all I know other than when I had MOE.
Going forward my current build will be keymod and likely any future build beyond that.

[GOST]

I don't change out parts very often so it really doesn't bother me what type of attachment system is used. I also do not wear gloves when I shoot, and 1913 picatinny doesn't bother me either. To me the only benefit I care about that you get from the these new Brazilian waxed handguards is weight. I've been using a Geissele MK4 lately and its OK.

[alamo5000]

I don't change out parts very often so it really doesn't bother me what type of attachment system is used. I also do not wear gloves when I shoot, and 1913 picatinny doesn't bother me either. To me the only benefit I care about that you get from the these new Brazilian waxed handguards is weight. I've been using a Geissele MK4 lately and its OK.

Just out of curiosity I googled it and my rail is 14" and weights 11oz. A Daniel Defense 14" quad rail weighs 17.4 oz.

I don't change out parts that often either... once I set it up that's it unless I am trying to experiment with new things.

I like the feel in hand of the smooth, er 'brazillian waxed' rail myself. I think they look better too [:D]

[oilspill]

Personally I think Centurion had the best idea with threaded holes in the CMR rail. Directly bolt the accessories on, doesn't get much simpler. I'll be checking out some Arisaka stuff shortly ;) .

[GOST]

The Geissele MK1 had threaded holes also, but was heavy. The CMR is a very nice handguard.

[Thompson]

The Geissele MK1 had threaded holes also, but was heavy. The CMR is a very nice handguard.
One of the downsides to the MK1, in my opinion. A solid rail irregardless.

[alamo5000]

Personally I think Centurion had the best idea with threaded holes in the CMR rail. Directly bolt the accessories on, doesn't get much simpler.

I don't know anything about Centurion but I kind of like the idea of adaptability and interchangeability. What happens if the rail has holes only at certain spots and you have buy all these proprietary accessories? Then you switch rails and guess what, you start all over. At least with these M-lok and Keymod designs... say you had two guns you can interchange parts because of compatibility. I can think of a number of reasons why I would like these keymod/mlok designs better as a whole.

[toolboxluis00200]

did some say K-Mod
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/toolboxluis/oldschool1of1-7_zpscd716313.jpg (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/toolboxluis/media/oldschool1of1-7_zpscd716313.jpg.html)
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x151/toolboxluis/c9X6n_zpsqzp69bre.gif (http://s183.photobucket.com/user/toolboxluis/media/c9X6n_zpsqzp69bre.gif.html)
[BD][BD][BD]

[VIPER 237]

I think BCM almost singlehandedly cemented Keymod into the market, especially after their free bcg sale. It seems like almost every rifle i see on the range has a KMR hand guard on it.

[GOST]

I think BCM almost singlehandedly cemented Keymod into the market, especially after their free bcg sale. It seems like almost every rifle i see on the range has a KMR hand guard on it.

Agreed, looks like they want to go head to head with Magpul and make their money back on plastic.

[UWone77]

Agreed, looks like they want to go head to head with Magpul and make their money back on plastic.

Not the first time, selling accessories was more lucrative than selling the actual hardware. I want to see where we are in another year or two as far as accessories. For me so far, the biggest draw back of the head start Keymod has had is, there aren't many accessories. You basically have to attach 1913 rails to the keymod, and then attach your standard accessories, introducing a possible additional point of failure. I do love the weight and slim profile of the NSR and KMR though.

[FortTom]

Not the first time, selling accessories was more lucrative than selling the actual hardware. I want to see where we are in another year or two as far as accessories. For me so far, the biggest draw back of the head start Keymod has had is, there aren't many accessories. You basically have to attach 1913 rails to the keymod, and then attach your standard accessories, introducing a possible additional point of failure. I do love the weight and slim profile of the NSR and KMR though.

There is an advantage to this. If you only need one or two small rail sections, you can attach them and still have that small O.D. of the keymod. I suppose its the same way with M-LOK. If you need to hang stuff all over your weapon, lasers, lights, optics, BUIS, bipod, and what ever else one might need, a quad rail may still be the best option of either the Keymod or M-LOK.

[CarbonScoring]

I ran into an issue with M-lok today that I didn't expect. I've got a 10" SLR M-lok Solo Lite rail with a 10.5" Aero barrel and BCM low pro gas block. I tried installing a rail section all the way forward and was not able to because the nut touched the gas block and it kept it from turning 90°. Instead, the nut screwed down without engaging the rail. Thankfully I prefer the rail section back a slot.

I have no idea if a similar thing could have happened with keymod; the M-lok nut seems thicker.