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Aberration79
16 November 2014, 19:40
So I have built 2 AR's with Noveske 16" barrels. One is using the matched bolt that came with it, the other has a Rainier Arms NiB BCG. Both have ALG QMS triggers, with JP Rifles yellow springs.

Both of them are shooting about 4in+ groups at 100yds. I am using a Nikon Monarch 5.5-16 x 44 scope on a LaRue SPR mount.

Now I am no sniper, and I have only had basic infantry marksmanship training. At one point I did shoot expert. But my eyes are no longer good enough to do that with irons. I am using a pretty hefty sandbag on a bench at the local range.

I have shot cheap wolf, and recent I was loading up some 69gr SMK, 75gr Hornady, and 77gr SMK. With some Ramshot TAC. I was starting low, about 22.5gr stepping up .2gr. I had 50 rounds of each loaded. None shot much better.

So all I can think is I did something wrong in the builds. I used a barrel vise and torqued to 35lbs then just enough to align the gas tube. Or I am a really poor shot. Or there is something wrong with the scope?

I am thinking of getting some MK262 Mod1 to see how those shoot as a baseline.

Any ideas? I am really scratching my head. At 4MOA+, they aren't much use past 100yds.

alamo5000
16 November 2014, 19:51
Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

UWone77
16 November 2014, 19:54
I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.

alamo5000
16 November 2014, 19:58
I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.


YUP! I agree. If they get the same results check out the scope and/or try better ammo.

UWone77
16 November 2014, 20:00
Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

However, I love your attitude...LOL

alamo5000
16 November 2014, 20:02
However, I love your attitude...LOL

I am enthusiastic! :)

Although I am new to (owning) AR's I am not at all new to most other forms of shooting... many of the principles do carry over (IE ballistics) or whatever...

Ordnance
16 November 2014, 20:18
Several things. First off, quit using cheap ammo and expecting better results. Second, most barrels need to foul up a bit before groups tighten up which can be anywhere from 20-100rds. 4" is a lot to tighten up though. If you're going to run heavies then make sure you're checking your seating to the lands on the ogive and not getting caught up on the COAL when loading and crimping because if the bullet is getting pushed back into the case you could be getting pressure spikes creating flyers. Next, a lot of people get behind an AR with a match barrel and expect to shoot it like their bolt rifles achieving the same ragged hole results... yeah... that's not going to happen unless you've been shooting a precision AR for awhile. Semi-auto platforms magnify all the errors in a shooters form. They have longer lock times which means you need to really be consistent on your trigger follow through and not gripping the handle like you want to choke it. Because it's a semi you also need to try and be straight behind the rifle. The other guys are right though and you should have someone experienced with AR's get behind it. You should have it on a bipod or in a lead sled so the shooter can load the pod and really control the recoil impulse (I prefer a bipod because I only care what the rifle can do with me behind it). Can you post up a photo of the glass mounted? Did you make witness marks to see if the scope is shifting? When you installed the scope did you pull forward on the ring/mount before tightening it down? Maybe swap the glass out with someone else real quick and see if it shoots better. If all else fails then I would question the barrel headspacing and call Noveske for a call back tag to ship it to them since they have a guarantee and it's not achieving it.

Aberration79
17 November 2014, 08:58
Uwone is going to give me a hard time but I don't care :)

Which Noveske barrels are you using? What is the twist and all that info on your specific barrel?

The stainless. From what I can tell all Noveske are 1:7 polygon rifling with "Noveske" chambers.


I'd have a buddy shoot it and see what his groups are.

Damn it. That means I will have to make friends.


Several things. First off, quit using cheap ammo and expecting better results. Second, most barrels need to foul up a bit before groups tighten up which can be anywhere from 20-100rds. 4" is a lot to tighten up though. If you're going to run heavies then make sure you're checking your seating to the lands on the ogive and not getting caught up on the COAL when loading and crimping because if the bullet is getting pushed back into the case you could be getting pressure spikes creating flyers. Next, a lot of people get behind an AR with a match barrel and expect to shoot it like their bolt rifles achieving the same ragged hole results... yeah... that's not going to happen unless you've been shooting a precision AR for awhile. Semi-auto platforms magnify all the errors in a shooters form. They have longer lock times which means you need to really be consistent on your trigger follow through and not gripping the handle like you want to choke it. Because it's a semi you also need to try and be straight behind the rifle. The other guys are right though and you should have someone experienced with AR's get behind it. You should have it on a bipod or in a lead sled so the shooter can load the pod and really control the recoil impulse (I prefer a bipod because I only care what the rifle can do with me behind it). Can you post up a photo of the glass mounted? Did you make witness marks to see if the scope is shifting? When you installed the scope did you pull forward on the ring/mount before tightening it down? Maybe swap the glass out with someone else real quick and see if it shoots better. If all else fails then I would question the barrel headspacing and call Noveske for a call back tag to ship it to them since they have a guarantee and it's not achieving it.

I wasn't using just cheap ammo. I do expect better than 4MOA. I said the cheap ammo shoots as good as better ammo. The only reason I shot cheap ammo was nothing else was available when I first built them. But 4MOA with cheap ammo? No way. And even though my hand loads might not be tuned to perfection, 4MOA? And then as I used different weights, a wide range of powder weight, it just didn't add up. So I thought maybe there is just something I was missing about building this things. But its not much more difficult than Lego's!

I have a bi-pod, the bags seem far more stable to shoot from. I got a big heafty Champion bag on the front and a small bag under the stock. You think a bipod would be better? I just have a RCBS basic setup. But what I was reading about loading for the 5.56/AR was that the lands on the 5.56 were so far away that I would never make them on magazine length rounds. I probably should still check being the Noveske chamber? Now the glass and witness marks. Hmm. I should have thought of that. The mount is a LaRue SPR removable mount. They claim a guaranteed return to zero.

Trigger follow through, I never focused on that. Makes sense.

I am experienced with the AR, just not precision shooting. We'd always just go out shooting plates and melons and cans. 300yds had never been a problem. Except for the Army qual, never sat down to take my time. These are just my first builds. My old plinker Oly Arms shoots better!
Honestly if I was shooting around 1.5-2MOA or so, I wouldn't be so concerned. I would just chalk it up to me. But 4MOA? Its a lot. At 300yds that about a foot! I would never be able to plink cans if my Oly shot that poorly.

I never knew they had a guarantee! That is VERY refreshing to know.

My intent was to eventually get into 3gun. I don't need a 1000yd tack driver, but 4MOA won't do for 3gun. This scope was just the one I had on my hunting rifle, and I didn't know what I was going to go with on the AR, so just used it. It was on a Rem700 7mm Mag, so I figured if it would handle that the AR shouldn't be beating up on it. So I never questioned the glass itself.

alamo5000
17 November 2014, 09:08
Do you have any back up irons on the rifle?

Knowing all that I am still on board with Uwone about having a friend shoot it. If it's still all over the place remove the scope and test it another way.

At this point it's hard to say but I might lean towards a scope issue. My front mount came loose the other day right after I got a 100 yard zero and I went from 1" to 12" groups just like that. It wasn't even all the way off, it was just a little loose and it had that big of an effect.

Who mounted the scope and what does all that look like? I personally would try to isolate each part at a time...and a scope is by far the easiest thing to isolate fault in if you ask me.

Former11B
17 November 2014, 09:16
Are you using the same scope and swapping it back and forth or do you have identical scopes on both?

If the former, is the mount securely fastened so it's not wobbling during the course of fire? If the latter, are they both tight?

Not trying to insult you here but if they're both offering similar results, it seems like the problem maybe something simple.

Aberration79
17 November 2014, 09:23
Yeah I got the MBUS. The problem with those is my eyesight sucks. I'll have to find better contrasting targets. I mounted the scope. It was working great on the Rem700. The mount sits too high on it, so I can't get my cheek on the stock.

The big concern was 2 rifles doing the same thing. But when I think about it, the only thing common between them is the ammo and optics. Same type of barrel, but 2 barrels the same way? Thats why I was think it was something with how I built them.

Aberration79
17 November 2014, 09:28
Are you using the same scope and swapping it back and forth or do you have identical scopes on both?

If the former, is the mount securely fastened so it's not wobbling during the course of fire? If the latter, are they both tight?

Not trying to insult you here but if they're both offering similar results, it seems like the problem maybe something simple.

Same optic swapping back and forth. Or at least I was at first, no real point in swapping. But I do remove it when I put it in the safe. Its a Larue LT104/SPR. These things are magic. Easy to tighten and adjust. It would be the optic is anything.

I am really going to have to make friends LOL.

The bigger problem is I travel for work, its so damn hard to make schedules work with others. The one friend I got who is usually available is a really new shooter. Man do I got a story about a Savage .270 he bought from Dicks and the scope mounting job they did.

Personally I used to work on some of the most complex manufacturing equipment in the world. Everything was nanometers. So I get a lot of the concepts and theory. The mechanical stuff is simple. And I know I need to work on my own skill with the trigger. But this whole 4MOA on 2 rifles just has me stumped.

Anyways, I'll get back at you guys. I got to head to Kentucky, from Oregon, until the 25th. Hopefully I get put some lead down range after that, before Thanksgiving.

Ordnance
17 November 2014, 09:41
I wasn't using just cheap ammo. I do expect better than 4MOA. I said the cheap ammo shoots as good as better ammo. The only reason I shot cheap ammo was nothing else was available when I first built them. But 4MOA with cheap ammo? No way. And even though my hand loads might not be tuned to perfection, 4MOA? And then as I used different weights, a wide range of powder weight, it just didn't add up. So I thought maybe there is just something I was missing about building this things. But its not much more difficult than Lego's!

I have a bi-pod, the bags seem far more stable to shoot from. I got a big heafty Champion bag on the front and a small bag under the stock. You think a bipod would be better? I just have a RCBS basic setup. But what I was reading about loading for the 5.56/AR was that the lands on the 5.56 were so far away that I would never make them on magazine length rounds. I probably should still check being the Noveske chamber? Now the glass and witness marks. Hmm. I should have thought of that. The mount is a LaRue SPR removable mount. They claim a guaranteed return to zero.

Trigger follow through, I never focused on that. Makes sense.

I am experienced with the AR, just not precision shooting. We'd always just go out shooting plates and melons and cans. 300yds had never been a problem. Except for the Army qual, never sat down to take my time. These are just my first builds. My old plinker Oly Arms shoots better!
Honestly if I was shooting around 1.5-2MOA or so, I wouldn't be so concerned. I would just chalk it up to me. But 4MOA? Its a lot. At 300yds that about a foot! I would never be able to plink cans if my Oly shot that poorly.

I never knew they had a guarantee! That is VERY refreshing to know.

My intent was to eventually get into 3gun. I don't need a 1000yd tack driver, but 4MOA won't do for 3gun. This scope was just the one I had on my hunting rifle, and I didn't know what I was going to go with on the AR, so just used it. It was on a Rem700 7mm Mag, so I figured if it would handle that the AR shouldn't be beating up on it. So I never questioned the glass itself.

A bipod is better because you can load the bipod. Not all AR's need it, but most of the time it helps greatly. As for Larue's mounts they're good mounts but it's only as good as how the glass is put into the mount. And his claim on the return to zero for the QD has been proven several times as not being perfect despite the temper tantrums Mark has thrown. It's a good mount, but if you're serious about maintaining a zero then don't remove it unless absolutely necessary.

Reloading... yes a lot of AR's and even bolts these days have deep throats and you won't necessarily reach the lands. Also, some rifles actually like to jump to the lands. But most match grade barrels should have tighter chambers. I also check to make sure there's nothing wrong in the first place because if my lands are back too far then you'll have pressure issues. I've had a very nice 308 with a Bartlien that the throat was too tight and it was because of a bad reamer. That was also the rifle that once fixed I discovered went from .6-7 down to <.5 by simply going from a 2.81 COAL to 2.79 and letting it jump a little more to the lands.

AR shooting for quals is nothing like precision shooting. Most millitary qual plates are 2-3MOA or greater and very forgiving of shooter error. And I'm not saying that the 4 MOA is in any way acceptable. I'm simply pointing out possible problem points. Too many people want to blame equipment before the shooter, but all are factors. If you have a 2 MOA gun with a 2 MOA shooter then you'll shoot really bad groups. Again... I'm not saying your the problem, but you did say you were newer to the precision world.

They do have warranties and they should Guarantee a 1MOA or better. They would get eaten alive if they sold a 4 MOA barrel and weren't willing to fix it, lol.

Always question glass. I don't care if it's S&B, NF, USO, Kahles, Vortex, or Leupy. Shit happens and everything is susceptible to breakage. AR's have multiple recoil impulses as well and your bolt only has one. If you're serious about 3 gun I would look into an 18" with intermediate or rifle length gas.

Again... None of this is by any means saying you're the problem but simply looking at the top factors that usually contribute to the issue. I'm suggesting the easier factors to eliminate short of sending the barrel back just yet or watching you beat your head against a wall trying to figure it out.

Ordnance
17 November 2014, 09:45
Yeah I got the MBUS. The problem with those is my eyesight sucks. I'll have to find better contrasting targets. I mounted the scope. It was working great on the Rem700. The mount sits too high on it, so I can't get my cheek on the stock.

The big concern was 2 rifles doing the same thing. But when I think about it, the only thing common between them is the ammo and optics. Same type of barrel, but 2 barrels the same way? Thats why I was think it was something with how I built them.

Are you saying you can't get a good cheek weld on the AR?

Ordnance
17 November 2014, 09:50
Same optic swapping back and forth. Or at least I was at first, no real point in swapping. But I do remove it when I put it in the safe. Its a Larue LT104/SPR. These things are magic. Easy to tighten and adjust. It would be the optic is anything.

I am really going to have to make friends LOL.

The bigger problem is I travel for work, its so damn hard to make schedules work with others. The one friend I got who is usually available is a really new shooter. Man do I got a story about a Savage .270 he bought from Dicks and the scope mounting job they did.

Personally I used to work on some of the most complex manufacturing equipment in the world. Everything was nanometers. So I get a lot of the concepts and theory. The mechanical stuff is simple. And I know I need to work on my own skill with the trigger. But this whole 4MOA on 2 rifles just has me stumped.

Anyways, I'll get back at you guys. I got to head to Kentucky, from Oregon, until the 25th. Hopefully I get put some lead down range after that, before Thanksgiving.

Same scope on 2 different rifles and both shooting 4 MOA? Larue is not as magic as you think. Too many people ignore key components based upon a false belief that something is infallible...

Aberration79
17 November 2014, 10:01
All very good points. I never dug that much into the drama in the industry. I had done some searching and I thought the Larue should be plenty good enough. Mainly because I wasn't expecting to shoot 100yds.

My impression was most 3gun max is only 200yds? Thats why I settled on the 16". Wont a longer barrel just give me a bit more velocity, not accuracy?

Oh, and so I am not a complete douche bag. Here is a pic of both.

The top is the one I built for me. Both have Spike's Zombie lowers, Noveske stainless 16", ALQ QMS triggers, JP yellow springs, BAD ambi safeties, KNS pins. Hers is built on a Aero Precision upper, Rainier Arms NiB BCG. Mine has an American Spirit arms side charging upper (Their anodizing SUCKS!) and BC with the Noveske bolt. She has the magpul MOE stock and grips. I have the STR with a Hogue grip (I like the thickness, but not the length to my thumb well). Seekins bolt release on her, it wont fit the ASA upper on mine. JP modular handguard on hers, YHM smooth on mine. 2A Armament T3 titanium brake on mine, Ares Armor Effin-A on hers.

I actually like her build more than mine. Its super light. The YHM handguards are pretty heavy, not too happy with them. I will eventually get some decent keymod type. I don't need the storage of the stock either, but I have no complaints. If I EVER learn how to shoot, I might put some better triggers on them. The ASA upper I am really disappointed in. The function is great. No need to take your eye off the optic if you got a problem. But their anodizing is junk, and the tolerances are poor. You can see where the gas key has contacted a little in that open section of the uppers, and 2 long lines of the anodizing worn through where the BCG rides.

I got 2 more lowers and 2 FN CHF chromed barrels in the safe, will slowly build them up for my daughters. Only 3 and 6 right now. :D

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/Aberration_01/6A10C9E6-4CDC-4E6B-8430-113BF35A7DD8_zpsezi6k9yh.jpg


Are you saying you can't get a good cheek weld on the AR?

No on the Rem700 with the Larue mount.


Same scope on 2 different rifles and both shooting 4 MOA? Larue is not as magic as you think. Too many people ignore key components based upon a false belief that something is infallible...

I'm thinking you are right about this.

Ordnance
17 November 2014, 10:38
All very good points. I never dug that much into the drama in the industry. I had done some searching and I thought the Larue should be plenty good enough. Mainly because I wasn't expecting to shoot 100yds.

My impression was most 3gun max is only 200yds? Thats why I settled on the 16". Wont a longer barrel just give me a bit more velocity, not accuracy?

Oh, and so I am not a complete douche bag. Here is a pic of both.

The top is the one I built for me. Both have Spike's Zombie lowers, Noveske stainless 16", ALQ QMS triggers, JP yellow springs, BAD ambi safeties, KNS pins. Hers is built on a Aero Precision upper, Rainier Arms NiB BCG. Mine has an American Spirit arms side charging upper (Their anodizing SUCKS!) and BC with the Noveske bolt. She has the magpul MOE stock and grips. I have the STR with a Hogue grip (I like the thickness, but not the length to my thumb well). Seekins bolt release on her, it wont fit the ASA upper on mine. JP modular handguard on hers, YHM smooth on mine. 2A Armament T3 titanium brake on mine, Ares Armor Effin-A on hers.

I actually like her build more than mine. Its super light. The YHM handguards are pretty heavy, not too happy with them. I will eventually get some decent keymod type. I don't need the storage of the stock either, but I have no complaints. If I EVER learn how to shoot, I might put some better triggers on them. The ASA upper I am really disappointed in. The function is great. No need to take your eye off the optic if you got a problem. But their anodizing is junk, and the tolerances are poor. You can see where the gas key has contacted a little in that open section of the uppers, and 2 long lines of the anodizing worn through where the BCG rides.

I got 2 more lowers and 2 FN CHF chromed barrels in the safe, will slowly build them up for my daughters. Only 3 and 6 right now. :D

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/Aberration_01/6A10C9E6-4CDC-4E6B-8430-113BF35A7DD8_zpsezi6k9yh.jpg



No on the Rem700 with the Larue mount.



I'm thinking you are right about this.

Velocity is a good thing. In this case you'd have a higher velocity which means a slightly flatter trajectory and a greater margin for error. Some comps will go >300yds. I mostly wanted to see it mounted to make sure you weren't placing it anywhere in front of the barrel nut and possible affecting the harmonics. I also wouldn't go above a 55gr for 3 Gun. You'll have no problems with a match grade 55gr Berger and you'll get a much higher velocity that will have no issues out to 400-500 in the comps. The heavies are only a benefit if you're having to combat heavy winds, distances >500, or you want more energy for hunting. Keep in mind like everything else having to do with equipment it's all opinions and you have to do what works best for you, not what works best for some other guys especially since they could just be following the herd.

Triggers... When you learn how to shoot better? Lol.. Dude... IMO the 3 most important things to achieve the best accuracy in a semi-auto are the barrel, the shooter, and the trigger. Trigger follow through is extremely important with an AR and although sure you can shoot well with a crappy trigger it means with a great trigger you can shoot even better. Heavy is also not a bad thing contrary to popular belief. Heavier means less recoil for better tracking, AND I can create more stable shooting positions. Every person who thinks they need the lightest gun out there because they don't want to "Hump around a heavy rifle" needs to do this thing called exercise.

Your gas key is making contact on the top of the receiver? Is the metal wear producing metal shavings? I hate to ask again but can you get pics?

And no one thinks you're a douche or even close. I know you can't drop on a dime and get them just because someone on the internet asks for them. I only want to see them to see if there was something obvious to try and help.

Aberration79
26 November 2014, 06:33
Sorry, was in Kentucky. But daddy has an interview for a local job TODAY! Man I hope I land it.

I only meant douche because its a custom build forum, and I hadn't provided any pics or information in the build :D I know when ever I see a new thread I want to see the rifle.

And sorry I meant the CAM PIN! I can't tell if the wear is causing metal shaving, but with finish worn down completely in some areas I don't see how steel on aluminum COULDN'T produce metal shavings. American Spirit Arms is going to take a look at it.

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/Aberration_01/530C2022-1DB9-4F4B-BD8F-7DC981A4A35C_zpsp3j1nkv1.jpg

markm
26 November 2014, 06:54
Can you buy a box of Federal GMM 69 or 77 gr to try? Mk262 isn't match ammo... it's made by a company who can't do much of anything very well except use good bullets.

Eliminating the ammo as the problem will be nice. Although... if you can get a damned 77 gr SMK to spit out the barrel, it's hard to make it shoot 4 moa. And forget bullet seating depth. SMKs are tangent ogive and are absolutely NOT depth sensitive.

Kopis
2 December 2014, 11:30
at least try some PMC bronze. My 18" AR shoots pretty good groups with that as plinking ammo.

Aberration79
7 December 2014, 07:59
OK, new development. Astigmatism. I thought my RDS was junk... The dot look like a crooked smiley face. Through the BUIS rear peep, its clear. So with that someone has suggest that the scopes reticle can appear to shift what astigmatism as I try to focus?

They suggested this. http://www.eyepalusa.com/eyepal_whose_using.html

alamo5000
7 December 2014, 08:38
I'm not an optometrist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. LOL

On a serious note I have a few friends who are optometrists. One is in the Army and is finishing his medical training. I can run it by him and see what he offers.

Aberration79
1 January 2015, 17:57
So I FINALLY managed to get up to the range. The Nikon scope was a loaner from my Rem 700, so I finally decided to try out one of the Primary Arms 1-6x. I must say I am extremely pleased with the scope. The center dot at 50yds matched the bulls eye on the targets. And at 100yds its was pretty easy to center it up into the lighter green of the square.

I also ordered a bunch of match ammo. I zero'd the scope at 50yds with the cheap ammo I had. Here is the first 5rnd group at 100 yds using Hornady 75gr Superformance Match. Now that is more like it. I also shot Colt 77gr Match, Winchester 55gr 3 Gun, Winchester 77gr. The Colt shot just as good, but I didn't pull one so badly. The Winchester was just as bad as everything else I had short before. The Winchester 77gr was also crimped so tightly the bullets were all buckled in.

So from here its obvious I need to work on developing a load that is close to the Hornady or Colt. Anyone know what powder they use?

http://i364.photobucket.com/albums/oo90/Aberration_01/524CCCFF-6F44-4A18-BAC2-2F55B7E87615_zps7vz1lbd1.jpg

cjd3
7 February 2015, 19:06
Seekins bolt release on her, it wont fit the ASA upper on mine. JP modular handguard on hers, YHM smooth on mine. 2A Armament T3 titanium brake on mine, Ares Armor Effin-A on hers.

How do you two like the Effin -A?