More Barrel Questions

[alamo5000]

So I have my AR done and I've shot it a little... I got the scope zeroed (twice) because of a scope mount mishap...

But now I think I have most of the kinks worked out and I am seeing overall what I am getting in way of results.

I am using a 1-4X scope that has a a 'tactical' reticle...I am testing this part still. I am very confident in the gun... and the optic I would rank as 'satisfactory for my purposes' so far. It's still very early.

At 100 yards I can shoot off of a little shooters block and get 1" groups at 100 yards using this ammo.

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-REM-55-GR-FMJBT/

"Accuracy" is all relative to one's expectations and distance shot etc etc. I am sure with some match ammo I could possibly tighten up my groups, but I see that as being sort of irrelevant with my current set up. While I like accuracy, 1" @ 100 yards with off the shelf ammo is more than sufficient for this rifle. I have yet to go try to get a 200 yard or longer shoot in. It's very unlikely that I will ever take shots beyond 200 yards... and if I do it will be every now and again... like maybe once or twice a year.... (unless I start making regular trips out to the longer ranges around here)...which that is an option but up until now I just shoot for free considering how rural it is out here.

I set out for 'accuracy' but not long range accuracy ...and I think if I want to 'tighten it up' from where I am now I will need a higher power optic and I will need to either buy some match grade ammo or reload my own until I find the right grain and charge combo...

The barrel I have is a 16" select medcon from Rainier Arms. It's proven to be good and has met my expectations.

My barrel is 416R stainless steel... and in reading on the internet I am finding a lot of mixed information and some of which is outright BS if you ask me (whoda thunk it... garbage on the internet!)

But some of the more or better things I have been able to find aren't directly answering my questions. The information is still all over the place.

Some people are saying with a stainless steel barrel competition shooters trade their stainless barrels in after 5000 rounds...that is really not that much in way of ammo count. But if I eventually need to get a new barrel I will just get a new barrel. If you're gonna own a car eventually you need new tires or wiper blades... and if you are going to shoot as a hobby... well same thing.

That said this notion of 'competition shooters' could well mean people shooting 500-600 yards out or more. It could mean any number of things. Their expectations could be way more demanding than mine.

I don't forsee myself giving my gun or my barrel truly hard use... I could see myself realistically shooting 2000 to 3000 rounds per year which breaks down to about 2 mags a week on average, sometimes a lot more, sometimes less... and that is just an estimate. It might be a little less...mainly because I don't go shooting full auto blasting, but rather more like targets or other things along that line. I enjoy trying to melt the barrel on an MP5 but I also enjoy 'sniping'...much more of the latter than the former.

My AR is sheerly a 'pleasure' and sport gun...and of course could be used for home defense or whatever.

Knowing all that information about my realistic range level (100-200 yards max)... what kind of barrel life can I realistically expect in way of round count before this barrel of mine starts to drop off and/or needs to be replaced?

And not that I am going to go out and change anything soon, but just for my learning about barrels, I don't think at those ranges upgrading to a match grade barrel will make that much difference, but I could be wrong. If I DID upgrade I would need to be more involved in manually reloading AND get a much better optic for it to make a real difference... not to mention this condition of mine called 'amateur shooter error'...

That said, I have access to longer shooting ranges... 600 yards is 20 minutes away and a 1400 yards (free) range is 15 minutes more...

Long story short I would like to get a more accurate estimate of barrel life for my chosen barrel (with my style of use of it)....I mean seriously if someone was shooting 500 yards out, the barrel might lose a lot after 5 or 10,000 rounds (at that range)... but for 100-200 yards plinking? I hear conflicting information all over the place.

But while we are at it, I could easily at some point another build another upper or two... who knows... where I live I can get signatures from the Chief LEO for an SBR, Class 3, or a suppressor or all of the above in about 5 minutes....at this point a suppressor is probably the most attractive....

I have options about what I 'can' do...vs what I really want to do... 18" or longer barrel with a match grade barrel and much better optic? I could have a longer range rifle that is sub MOA all the way.... That would definitely be an option, but I might do that in 5.56 or .308...

In a way I am thinking of purpose driven rifles that have a purpose completely different than the other...

And we won't even get into .308 yet... eventually one of those will be mine for sure...there is no doubt about it...

But the long story short of it is I am planning on spending money already on stuff I probably shouldn't be spending [:D] But alas I am single and have a little bit of savings for a hobby or two.

I hear a lot of conflicting information on barrels....so I would like to hear what the pros have to say about it.

[VIPER 237]

Stainless steel barrels are usually rated for around 5000 rounds for a reason. The 416/410 SS material is much more brittle than a Carbon steel like B-11595E, and so accuracy will drop off drastically in a very short time in comparison to a gradual erosion with the others, however it is easier to make a precision barrel out of 416/410 vs the B-11595E.

Typically around the throat is where you will see the most erosion. My WOA barrel was a sub MOA shooter, but at around the 5400 round mark the groups opened up to 3 MOA and became wildly inconsistent in a single setting as the throat gave out, vs having a couple B-11595E barrels gradually open up over a couple thousand rounds.

Barrel life is also effected by your firing schedule, and Heat is bad. If you act like you have a makeshift beltfed machine gun its going to burn out much much faster than waiting for the barrel to cool down between every shot.

[alamo5000]

Stainless steel barrels are usually rated for around 5000 rounds for a reason. The 416/410 SS material is much more brittle than a Carbon steel like B-11595E, and so accuracy will drop off drastically in a very short time in comparison to a gradual erosion with the others, however it is easier to make a precision barrel out of 416/410 vs the B-11595E.

Typically around the throat is where you will see the most erosion. My WOA barrel was a sub MOA shooter, but at around the 5400 round mark the groups opened up to 3 MOA and became wildly inconsistent in a single setting as the throat gave out, vs having a couple B-11595E barrels gradually open up over a couple thousand rounds.

Barrel life is also effected by your firing schedule, and Heat is bad. If you act like you have a makeshift beltfed machine gun its going to burn out much much faster than waiting for the barrel to cool down between every shot.

So more or less what I can expect out of this specific barrel is around 5000 rounds downrange (plus or minus) I should be more than good.... but then when it starts to go, it really just goes. 1 moa will turn into like 3 or 4 moa relatively quickly. Correct?

Don't get me wrong I have shot full auto on numerous occasions but that's not really my game. It's great and fun (especially if someone else is buying ammo) but I like other things too... just as much if not more.

It might sound weird but I can either burn a case of ammo in no time flat or I can have just as much fun getting 1 mag to last me an hour by setting up and testing shots and this or that from various positions or whatever. There is a lot more science involved in trying to hit a 400 yard target than there is spraying and praying.

Now carrying this over to other directions... say I have a variety of choices in barrels...I don't think going a true 'match grade' barrel is the way to go, because you have to pair that with match ammo and a lot better optic designed for precision. Yes I could stack shots one on the other, but I would also lose an element of versatility by making a one trick pony.

I hear chrome lined barrels can be very suspicious mainly because the lining in the bore isn't always even, and those aberrations lead to loss of accuracy.

Cold Hammer forged... I understand those to last a lot longer through a lot more abuse. Maybe because the metal is harder...

Now NONE of this stuff matters if your manufacturer screws it up. But assuming you stick with quality manufacturers...how much MOA would you in a real world environment lose by going with some of the other types of barrels?

Are we talking 1 moa (what I have now) vs 1.5 for something else or is it more drastic? I am assuming all similar care is taken for the right ammo and all that. I am talking pure apples to apples barrel performance.

[Slippers]

John Noveske had an interesting interview here: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

In it, he talks about how his button rifling is an improvement over conventional polygonal rifling, which leads to longer barrel life. He also mentions barrels going past 15,000 rounds without being "shot out."

[alamo5000]

John Noveske had an interesting interview here: http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/

In it, he talks about how his button rifling is an improvement over conventional polygonal rifling, which leads to longer barrel life. He also mentions barrels going past 15,000 rounds without being "shot out."


Very good catch. I am reading now. I am learning tons.

[alamo5000]

Crane: Do you have any plans to do a piston gun?

Noveske: We have piston plans, but we don’t have any plans of putting it in production, because it’s…I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve got piston guns here from other makers, and they’re dirty, and I don’t see…

Crane: Whadya’ mean "dirty"?

Noveske: Open up the bolt and look inside, and it’s dirty inside. The whole thing about them running clean is not necessarily…o.k., let me back up. I only run the guns with suppressors for testing when I did my comparison, and with suppressors, direct-impingement and piston-operated were both very dirty, ’cause the blowback comes to the chamber, not the gas tube. And, I’m not real happy with the piston systems that I’ve shot and examined, so it’s just to me, it’s not…

Crane: Well, the piston…the advantage for a piston with a suppressor on there is supposedly it doesn’t blow all the gunk back in your face.

Noveske: O.k., but what you’re not paying attention to is that all that crap comes back through the chamber, not the gas tube. On a piston gun or gas-impingement, the case is being extracted while the suppressor is still under pressure. Now you have all the pressure in that suppressor exiting both out the front and the back.

Crane: Right, but you’re saying the piston gun doesn’t solve that?

Noveske: It does not solve that. They’re both dirty.

[GOST]

The benefit of cold hammer forged is consistency in your chamber and bore. Due to the chrome lining it shouldn't make a difference whether or not the barrel is CHF or not for longevity, since the bullet would contact the chrome instead of the material underneath. Some are saying that meloniting a barrel is the way to go. The meloniting supposedly is stronger and has less growth, for minimal effects on accuracy. I personally have no experience with melonited barrels but have a BCM BFH and have been very pleased with it. Remember though that a average barrel with good ammo will most likely out perform a high end barrel with poor ammo.

[alamo5000]

Geez. That article is a goldmine. Thank you for sharing!!!

More quotes...

--

Crane: Right, o.k., now you’re double-chrome-lining your barrels, or some of your barrels, not the stainless steel barrels, but the…

Noveske: The N4 Light Carbine and N4 Light Recce barrels.

Crane: Light Carbine barrels. You’re double chromin’ ‘em, and obviously, you must be getting a pretty nice even chrome job on there.

Noveske: Yes. I have a tolerance that is equal to a match-grade barrel.

Crane: Equal to a stainless barrel?

Noveske: Well, that doesn’t mean anything, because there’s a lot of different makers of stainless barrels, but there is a kind of an unspoken match-grade tolerance in the custom barrel world of 2/10ths of a thousoundth concentricity, or…in uniformity of bore diameter from end to end, and I spec that out on my chrome-lined barrels.

Crane: Are you the only guy that’s double-chrome-lining ‘em?

Noveske: That’s not the right [terminology]. "Double-chrome-lining" implies that I’m chroming twice. I’m chroming once to the technical data package requirements for the M249 machine gun [FN M249 Squad Automatic Weapon a.k.a. FN M249 SAW], which call out for a chrome thickness that is approximately twice the thickness of an M16 or an M4.

Crane: The barrels that we’re talkin’ about are Pac-Nor.

Noveske: Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor’s shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what’s goin’ on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Crane: What type of stainless are they using?

Noveske: Well, they use 416 project 70. I use a different type of material.

Crane: And what about the standard steel barrels? What kind of steel is that?

Noveske: Let me back up. You can’t call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it’s gonna’ be much different. It’s gonna’ be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it’s a lot harder than any stainless we’ve ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.

-----

http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=30e7827a70ba4e05920d0e2 4fcb973c4

"Crucible 416R is a pre-hardened chromium stainless steel which is suitable for use in precision match-grade rifle barrels. It can be supplied in various hardness ranges according to the specific requirements ( HRC 24/28, 28/32, or 32/36)."

-----
My barrel uses 416R. I wonder if anyone knows what the Rockwell hardness rating is on a Rainier Arms medcon select barrel is? Maybe I will call and ask...at best they can say 'no'...

https://www.rainierarms.com/rainier-arms-selecttm-5-56mm-medcon-barrel-19

[alamo5000]

One thing I have already learned through this exercise is that the "5000ish" round count for 'competition shooters' can be highly misleading. If they have a "stainless barrel" at a 24 Rockwell hardness that won't last nearly as long as the 32 when it comes to barrel life. "Stainless steel" is too generic of a term... and even 416R has a very wide margin on the hardness level....24 all the way to 36... that's a very wide range in and of itself. The upper end of that is harder (as Mr. Noveske points out) than the standard m16 barrel....

(Side note, I have previously studied a little bit about Rockwell hardness because I like knives and it comes up from time to time)...

[Stone]

Send your barrel to WMD guns and have it Nitrocarberized and you can have the best of both worlds...

[alamo5000]

Remember though that a average barrel with good ammo will most likely out perform a high end barrel with poor ammo.

And can I get an AMEN![:D]

Yes! For sure.

I am trying to learn more about my equipment and generally about barrels...not that it will make me a better shooter but....but.... what the hell, I am just curious about how all this stuff really works.

[alamo5000]

Send your barrel to WMD guns and have it Nitrocarberized and you can have the best of both worlds...

75 bucks plus shipping and all that jive. so call it less than 100 bucks and it would make the surface oh my barrel at least a 56 on the rockwell hardness test down to a certain depth....

I don't know what the effect would be on shooting jumping from let's say a 32 hardness up to a 56....I don't know if it improves accuracy or just life...for right now I might actually want to try different barrels. The one I have is great...but if I can test others... then I might do something like that then.... who knows...

But that is awesome information to know for future reference.

I wonder if Rainier will tell me the Rockwell hardness number of their barrels?

[GOST]

It may improve longevity but not accuracy. I would email Rainier and ask about the hardness number. They've always have been great at answering my questions, and I'm one of those annoying people who have questions about everything.

[alamo5000]

I'm one of those annoying people who have questions about everything.

You too?[:D]

I found another tribe member!!! WOOT WOOT!!

[Slippers]

I'm not going to lie. That interview is one of the reasons I purchased a Noveske SPR barrel a year ago for my precision setup. It was expensive, but I love it.

[alamo5000]

It may improve longevity but not accuracy.

I will ask them tommorrow....

If I ever DO really want to build a tack driver gun... and I invest in a nice stainless match grade barrel, I would probably send that thing straight to them to get it done.

But for MY AR I don't think it's really needed. If I find out I really can get 10,000+ rounds through it as is.... hell, I've gotten my money worth.

I am learning that the devil really is in the details.

[GOST]

I read that John Noveske interview numerous times. I didn't buy a barrel but I've bought numerous items because of that man.

[alamo5000]

I'm not going to lie. That interview is one of the reasons I purchased a Noveske SPR barrel a year ago for my precision setup. It was expensive, but I love it.

Pics or I don't believe you[:D]

Do tell. What did you build? Give us the low down....

[alamo5000]

I read that John Noveske interview numerous times. I didn't buy a barrel but I've bought numerous items because of that man.


This is my first time to even see it, but man, that is very valuable. It's bookmarked...

[GOST]

From I've seen of my friends, if you get into that tack driver mentality you'll be changing barrels quite often. Them long range guys have a bad case of obsessive compulsive.[:D]

[alamo5000]

Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that’s harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.

Now the question is, how many rounds down range can a standard M16 barrel get before it's shot out?

[Ride4frnt]

I'm not going to lie. That interview is one of the reasons I purchased a Noveske SPR barrel a year ago for my precision setup. It was expensive, but I love it.

I have a noveske stainless on my blackout, and I love it. I have a BHW barrel on my spr, and I love it as well. Time will tell how long they last. I don't have enough money in the BHW barrel to be worried about replacing it at 5k rounds. The noveske is a little different at $400+ per barrel, but I don't see myself shooting that much .300blk in a short timeframe.

[alamo5000]

From I've seen of my friends, if you get into that tack driver mentality you'll be changing barrels quite often. Them long range guys have a bad case of obsessive compulsive.[:D]


I am fascinated by it. The whole lot of it. Just this thread alone shows more science and engineering than most people ever attribute to 'guns'... its all just fascinating. If I start dipping into some lottery money you better believe I am gonna have some awesome stuff....I will only buy what the wallet can bear...but for my purposes I am happy where I am at so far...

For me though, learning, and getting into the details about stuff (like this) is great. It's all part of the fun of shooting. To me it's not just a 'bang that's it' kind of thing...There are a ton of people who know 'something'...but not a lot who 'really know'...

[alamo5000]

http://www.tntesales.com/wmd-m-4-nitromet-barrel/


Description:
The NitrometTM Barrel is salt bath nitrocarburized inside and out for extended life, long lasting accuracy, and a tough, durable black finish. Barrel life is 50% greater than that of hard chrome. 1:7 twist, 16" M4 profile, 4150 Chrome Molybdenum Vanadium substrate, carbine length gas tube. This barrel is match grade with MOA or better using quality ammo. An NiB-X coated barrel extension is assembled to the barrel for the smoothest locking/unlocking action possible. A perfect compliment to an NiB-X coated bolt carrier group.

----

but no comparison to a hard stainless steel...at least not in that description...

[GOST]

As much as your getting into barrels you know optics is next. I see a Nightforce or similar in your future.[:D]

[Stone]

Here you go: https://ballisticadvantagellc.com/?product_cat=5-56-barrels

[alamo5000]

Here you go: https://ballisticadvantagellc.com/?product_cat=5-56-barrels

What am I supposed to be looking at there?

[Stone]

I thought you were researching Nitrocarberized barrels. They make some great barrels. Heres the one I used on my last build: https://specialopstactical.com/product/14-5-nitride-wnickel-boron-midlength-copy/

[alamo5000]

As much as your getting into barrels you know optics is next. I see a Nightforce or similar in your future.[:D]


Oh man, you nailed it. I am only testing out this optic I have now... I didn't want to go broke so I compromised on the optic (for now)...but I very much do want something like that...

I have this uncanny ability... if you blindfold me and put me in a room with products... 9 times out of 10 I will go straight to the most expensive stuff out there.:P

[GOST]

I know the feeling brother. But if your shooting distance that's not a bad problem.

[alamo5000]

I thought you were researching Nitrocarberized barrels. They make some great barrels. Heres the one I used on my last build: https://specialopstactical.com/product/14-5-nitride-wnickel-boron-midlength-copy/

I was learning about barrels in general... someone brought up Nitrocarberized and I thought it could be an awesome idea... it's not the whole point of the thread but I definitely learned something new.

For now, if I get 10,000 rounds out of this barrel I have.... I have 9,950 rounds to go...so I am just learning about stuff for my own knowledge.

[alamo5000]

I know the feeling brother. But if your shooting distance that's not a bad problem.

The purpose of my AR build was to have a 100 yard relatively accurate gun... with an occasional 200 yard leg stretcher. 99% of my shooting will be within that range. As of right now I get 1" @100 yards...which is sufficient for a general purpose gun. (using off the shelf ammo...not match ammo)

For general purpose the scope I have now is a pretty interesting design...if I try to specialize in something though I need something better and definitely with more magnification. I am not opposed to upgrading my optic though, not at all.

My wallet needs to recover first though...

[GOST]

Trust me your wallet will just constantly bleed.

[Former11B]

Now the question is, how many rounds down range can a standard M16 barrel get before it's shot out?

It depends.

You can say "10,000" is the average but it may be 3,000, it may be 20,000. It depends on the firing schedule How long did it take to run the rounds through, 6 hours or six years? What type of ammo? Brass cased and copper jacketed? Steel/moly? Mild or hot handloads?

With all my "precision" rifles, I keep an accurate shooting log. I can tell you exactly when, what load, and how many of each rounds I have shot through the pipe on each of them. Like you mentioned in a previous post, a barrel is a wear out item. Shoot it, enjoy shooting it, and when your round count starts getting "up there", buy a new barrel to have on stand by. You also asked if the MOA would increase from, say, 1MOA to 3-4...your pattern may open up but you may get keyholing or some other issue

[alamo5000]

It depends.

You can say "10,000" is the average but it may be 3,000, it may be 20,000. It depends on the firing schedule (how long did it take to run the rounds through, 6 hours or six years? What type of ammo? Brass cased and copper jacketed? Steel/moly? Mild or hot handloads?

With all my "precision" rifles, I keep an accurate shooting log. I can tell you exactly when, what load, and how many of each rounds I have shot through the pipe on each of them. Like you mentioned in a previous post, a barrel is a wear out item. Shoot it, enjoy shooting it, and when your round count starts getting "up there", buy a new barrel to have on stand by. You also asked if the MOA would increase from, say, 1MOA to 3-4...your pattern may open up but you may get keyholing or some other issue


For me shooting say 1-2 mags a week on average... and then on special occasions a few times a year a might go through 500 rounds in a day...I don't think for the most part that is considered hard use at all. That is why I went to some length to describe generally what I like to do. I would much rather set up a target or series of targets and go at it, rather than just blasting to make noise. I like to hit what I am shooting at.

I actually do quite a bit of reloading but I have not done it for .223 yet... velocity wise what would you consider mild, medium, and hot?

The rounds I zeroed with the box has a muzzle velocity (with a 24" barrel) at 3240 fps...so just rounding it off say 3200 fps...

Considering that I know my range isn't going to exceed 200 yards in most cases, I might start tinkering with reloads for this caliber...and once I get it tuned up I can use a higher capacity automated loader to make me a 5 gallon bucket full or so... so far every caliber that I own I can (and do) reload for... but I just haven't done so yet for the AR...

I am thinking that if this barrel of mine comes back with a Rockwell Hardness like what Noveske was talking about I could get 10K out of it at least, but who knows.

If I need to buy a new barrel eventually, hey, that's fine. I am just trying to learn about all these dynamics in the mean time.

[alamo5000]

Oh and for the record steel ammo will never get within 5 feet of my rifle. Brass or nothing.

[alamo5000]

It depends.

You can say "10,000" is the average but it may be 3,000, it may be 20,000. It depends on the firing schedule How long did it take to run the rounds through, 6 hours or six years? What type of ammo? Brass cased and copper jacketed? Steel/moly? Mild or hot handloads?

One thing for sure though. I am quite confident that we 'debunked' the idea that 'stainless steel barrels need to be replaced after 5000 rounds'... I saw that posted numerous times in numerous places all over the internet.

"Stainless steel" is too broad of a term... and even "416 R stainless" comes in a variety of hardness. The range of properties even there in that one subcategory is so broad that it is impossible to lump even all of those just under that category together under one hat.

Like I said, a generalization... 'myth' busted.

It 'could be' true, but it isn't necessarily 'always true'... and people are making these blanket statements...

[alamo5000]

Speaking of all of this...I missed this one line from Rainier's description....

"Manufacturing proprietary processes creates a stress free product that has a hardened surface on the bore. To improve the wear and longevity"

It looks like they already did some kind of treatment to harden the barrel...It's right there in black and white on Rainier's website....it might already be nitrocarberized or some form of it...

[UWone77]

Now the question is, how many rounds down range can a standard M16 barrel get before it's shot out?

Depends on what you consider shot out. Groups will start gradually opening up. It wouldn't surprise me to see 20k+ rounds out of a quality barrel.

[alamo5000]

Depends on what you consider shot out. Groups will start gradually opening up. It wouldn't surprise me to see 20k+ rounds out of a quality barrel.

What about with my Rainier Arms 16" select medcon? Can I expect something similar from a stainless 416R, hardened barrel? I think you used them before... but I am not 100%.

[UWone77]

What about with my Rainier Arms 16" select medcon? Can I expect something similar from a stainless 416R, hardened barrel? I think you used them before... but I am not 100%.

I would expect a Rainier Select Barrel to get 10-12k

I have probably half a dozen or more Select Barreled uppers, one has 9k rounds on it. Still shooting sub-MOA at 100 yards.

On a side note, I ran a torture test Rainier CHF barrel a few years back, has over 10k rounds, and still easily going. In fact, that's with the same mil-spec C158 Bolt. With BCM's filthy 14 surpassing 14k rounds, I have no doubt that barrel specs are much higher than perceived.

[alamo5000]

I would expect a Rainier Select Barrel to get 10-12k

I have probably half a dozen or more Select Barreled uppers, one has 9k rounds on it. Still shooting sub-MOA at 100 yards.

On a side note, I ran a torture test Rainier CHF barrel a few years back, has over 10k rounds, and still easily going. In fact, that's with the same mil-spec C158 Bolt. With BCM's filthy 14 surpassing 14k rounds, I have no doubt that barrel specs are much higher than perceived.

Thank you. I am more than pleased with my choice. 10-12 is ok. Like I said earlier, its wear out part... but 'how soon' is what was in question...10-12 is a good several years worth of duty with my kind of use.

But as I also said that our collective sharing of information has debunked a lot of myths that are posted up on forums all over the place. Blanket statements about 'stainless steel' in general should be taken with a grain of salt. The devil is in the details.

[UWone77]

Here's a good read for you:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?4012-Rainier-Arms-Hammer-Forged-Barrel

[alamo5000]

On a side note, I ran a torture test Rainier CHF barrel a few years back, has over 10k rounds, and still easily going. In fact, that's with the same mil-spec C158 Bolt. With BCM's filthy 14 surpassing 14k rounds, I have no doubt that barrel specs are much higher than perceived.

On a side note, how does one get selected or recruited to participate in said 'torture testing' ?[:D]

Sounds like that COULD be a lot of fun...

[alamo5000]

Here's a good read for you:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?4012-Rainier-Arms-Hammer-Forged-Barrel


On it. Like white on rice.

[UWone77]

On a side note, how does one get selected or recruited to participate in said 'torture testing' ?[:D]

Sounds like that COULD be a lot of fun...

I basically built a gun, and then passed it around my local shooting community trying to break it. I'd love to run one for the members here.

If they want to donate their time and ammo. [:D]

[alamo5000]

Here's a good read for you:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?4012-Rainier-Arms-Hammer-Forged-Barrel


Still reading... one thing that I saw come up... already... not barrel related... this is the second time I have heard I should consider staking my castle nut.

What is a proper procedure for doing such? Is it 'that important? Based on the photos, yes. Especially since my sling is attached to that plate.

Would blue loctite be a viable alternative to staking or should I stake mine instead?

[alamo5000]

Here's a good read for you:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?4012-Rainier-Arms-Hammer-Forged-Barrel

VERY NICE REVIEW!!!

I would never do that to my own gun... but it's nice to know that some people do for the peace of mind of others....

[alamo5000]

Trust me your wallet will just constantly bleed.

Damnit man! Why did you have to do this to me.

Crap.

http://nightforceoptics.com/compacts/2-5-10x32-nxs-compact-riflescope/

$1500 more bucks.

And its a 30mm tube...so it will fit my mounts and everything....

[Slippers]

You asked what I built:

http://i.imgur.com/vQuobRY.jpg

And yeah, that's a NF 2.5-10x32. :)

[alamo5000]

You asked what I built:

http://i.imgur.com/vQuobRY.jpg

And yeah, that's a NF 2.5-10x32. :)


So very nice! How long is that barrel?

Earlier in the thread we were talking about precision shooting and all that and NF got mentioned so I took a peek at their website.... drool.

[Slippers]

It's a Noveske SPR barrel, so 18" with intermediate gas. You can also get it in rifle length gas through MSTN.

I'm currently fighting with the optic mount height and cheek weld problems, but the barrel shoots wonderfully when I do my part.

[DutyUse]

The benefit of cold hammer forged is consistency in your chamber and bore. Due to the chrome lining it shouldn't make a difference whether or not the barrel is CHF or not for longevity, since the bullet would contact the chrome instead of the material underneath. Some are saying that meloniting a barrel is the way to go. The meloniting supposedly is stronger and has less growth, for minimal effects on accuracy. I personally have no experience with melonited barrels but have a BCM BFH and have been very pleased with it. Remember though that a average barrel with good ammo will most likely out perform a high end barrel with poor ammo.

This has been my experience aswell. In my personal shooting I've had such impressive accuracy out of my CHF barrels that I doubt I could personally gain anything from going stainless. Also the durability of these FN produced barrels are outstanding from what I've seen.

[alamo5000]

Follow up report:

I just got off the phone with Rainier Arms. I told them that I was considering getting the barrel nitrocarberized (sp?) but that I wanted to check with them first because their website says they do some kind of hardening process already. I didn't want to double do it if I didn't need to.

He told me that they tried to do Nitrocarberizing those specific barrels but that in tests it made the barrel TOO hard which led to at least a 15% or more failure rate and a shorter overall barrel life vs other alternative methods. He also said that it made other manufacturing processes much more difficult when it was done on those Select Medcon barrels.

He basically said over hardening caused a lot of problems. Far too many than they found acceptable. His number not mine was "15%" meaning failure rate but I also assume this applies to an actual shorter barrel life as well.

What he also told me is they developed a proprietary system that is 'similar' to nitrocarberizing but without all those issues.

He flat out told me that I was going to get between 12-15,000 rounds through this barrel before I start to see it opening up. He said their hardening process they use found that 'sweet spot' for performance and life. The guy I talked to was a 3 gunner who actually uses that specific barrel on his personal gun so he was able to tell me a lot of details.

He didn't tell me a Rockwell Hardness number, but that is irrelevant knowing all the other information. On another website that I saw though it says Nitrocarberizing creates a surface hardness of at least 59... so based on that number if that is 'too hard' for this specific type of metal, one can only surmise the Rockwell hardness range after Rainier's hardening process... somewhere between 40 to 50 would be about in the ball park I am guessing. Again though, irrelevant information in the grand scheme of things.

But what he was saying makes perfect sense. If the barrel is TOO stiff and TOO hard it starts to develop cracks and such with the whiplash of each repeated shot (over time)...not to mention further complications in manufacturing processes.

This was straight from the horses mouth... and it does make sense... He flat out told me that 'even if you are a hard user you will easily get 10,000 or more, probably 12,000 rounds through it, but if you aren't a hard user probably 15,000 or more'...

Interesting information. Very interesting. Soft barrels are easy to wear out, but hard barrels have downsides too... but if I can get 12-15,000 rounds down range with the accuracy of a stainless steel barrel.... it sounds like they got the formula for the soup on barrels just about right....

But a lot of myths busted about 'stainless steel'...

[alamo5000]

It really sounds like to me that Rainier Arms has their crap together. Just saying.

But I think with all these hardening processes and such and using different kinds of metals, and this or that it's a good thing to not talk about barrels in such a black and white way. It really does open the game up a lot. Especially when you consider what KIND of metal and all sorts of other factors as well as their processes for manufacturing and so on and so forth....

Just based on my whole little experiment here and asking the right people and willingness to learn stuff... there is a whole lot more to it than blanket statements about one kind of barrel or another.

[UWone77]

It really sounds like to me that Rainier Arms has their crap together. Just saying.

But I think with all these hardening processes and such and using different kinds of metals, and this or that it's a good thing to not talk about barrels in such a black and white way. It really does open the game up a lot. Especially when you consider what KIND of metal and all sorts of other factors as well as their processes for manufacturing and so on and so forth....

Just based on my whole little experiment here and asking the right people and willingness to learn stuff... there is a whole lot more to it than blanket statements about one kind of barrel or another.

You know these are just Black Hole Weaponry barrels, made to their specs right? [:D]

The Select Line is good, but I think what every basic/entry level stainless barrel should be.

[Former11B]

Damnit man! Why did you have to do this to me.

Crap.

http://nightforceoptics.com/compacts/2-5-10x32-nxs-compact-riflescope/

$1500 more bucks.

And its a 30mm tube...so it will fit my mounts and everything....

I'd really like one of those scopes but it's not gonna be right away. I've always liked the 2.5-10x...nice combo of size, weight and magnification

[alamo5000]

You know these are just Black Hole Weaponry barrels, made to their specs right? [:D]

The Select Line is good, but I think what every basic/entry level stainless barrel should be.

Like I said, I think they have their crap together. After that conversation today it's apparent that they really do put a lot of brain power into what they do. It is also abundantly clear that a lot of people on the internet are full of sh*t. [BD]

Are you saying the Select Line is a basic entry level barrel? If so bring em on!!! LOL [:D]

Or do you think they should be a 'standard' to go by??? (not quite getting your meaning)...

If these are middle of the road barrels, I wonder what makes a match grade barrel a match grade barrel? What else do they do to them to go 'up from here'?

[alamo5000]

I'd really like one of those scopes but it's not gonna be right away. I've always liked the 2.5-10x...nice combo of size, weight and magnification

I am just now testing my optic. It was cheap ($200 bucks)... I invested a lot of time and effort into understanding what I was getting as to the AR platform itself... now I need to devote at least that much time and effort into understanding optics and how they work and why one does one thing and the other does another... it's a whole different banana. The choice of optic can change the entire 'purpose and intended function' of the gun....

Once I learn more and build my wallet back up I will try to make some informed choices on optics....

[UWone77]

Like I said, I think they have their crap together. After that conversation today it's apparent that they really do put a lot of brain power into what they do. It is also abundantly clear that a lot of people on the internet are full of sh*t. [BD]

Are you saying the Select Line is a basic entry level barrel? If so bring em on!!! LOL [:D]

Or do you think they should be a 'standard' to go by??? (not quite getting your meaning)...

If these are middle of the road barrels, I wonder what makes a match grade barrel and match grade barrel? What else do they do to them to go 'up from here'?

The Select Line is considered their entry level match barrel. Still uses a 5.56 chamber vs the .223 Wylde. I would guess most people can't shoot the barrel to it's potential. In fact, I couldn't shoot sub-MOA with it at 100, so it's a much better barrel than I am a shooter.

Here's my review of it from about 4 years ago:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2723-Rainier-Arms-Select-5.56MM-Barrel

[alamo5000]

The Select Line is considered their entry level match barrel. Still uses a 5.56 chamber vs the .223 Wylde. I would guess most people can't shoot the barrel to it's potential. In fact, I couldn't shoot sub-MOA with it at 100, so it's a much better barrel than I am a shooter.

I've read your review before...

That's one thing about all this fancy stuff.. you can have a $1000 barrel but if you have a crap shooter, you might as well have a $200 barrel. Living up to the gear is a great point.

For me, if I take my time with non match ammo I can get 1" or under at 100 yards as it sits now. I think part of my problem there is my optic isn't powerful enough... not even a barrel issue...IF i was trying to do that. With what I have now with off the shelf decent 55 grain ammo and my optic as it sits I repeated 1" groups several times... enough to satisfy me that it's possible and repeatable. Going out farther than that, I don't know.

I don't have my set up set up for extreme accuracy. If I did want to do that I would have chosen an entirely different optic... but I think the barrel is very capable in my range of 1 to 200 yards....

[SwissyJim]

The Select Line is considered their entry level match barrel. Still uses a 5.56 chamber vs the .223 Wylde. I would guess most people can't shoot the barrel to it's potential. In fact, I couldn't shoot sub-MOA with it at 100, so it's a much better barrel than I am a shooter.

Here's my review of it from about 4 years ago:

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?2723-Rainier-Arms-Select-5.56MM-Barrel

I bought into the hype/marketing thing awhile ago, before I knew better and while the parts were hard to get. I jumped on a 20" UltraMatch .308 barrel for my build, and while I do not regret it per se, I certainly could have gone with a 'lesser' barrel. I put the build I did on a friends monster gun mount ( full lead sled I think it was?) and with it strapped in and weighed down, so even if I yanked on the trigger it would not move, the thing would shoot a box of match ammo thru pretty much the same freaking hole. Bipod'ed, mono-pod on the rear and taking my time, I can not get anywhere near that accurate. I can do MOA at 100yrds, and I'm getting better with it, but as others have said... it can far outshoot my abilities. Still love it, and do not regret the extra cost but had I done my research a little more and known a little more I certainly could have done with less.