plate carrier/armor questions/info

[SwissyJim]

Hey all,
Looking for information on plate carriers, armor plates and so forth (if this is the wrong forum, apologies!)

First off, let me put this out there. I am NOT dependent on these for duty use - I am not LEO, Military, etc. Rather just a dude that that is curious, and looking at getting a set because frankly... with the bill before the legislature possibly banning private citizens from owning them, I want to piss them off and buy a set. I've thought about it for awhile and finally made the choice o do it. Now, will the bill pass? Who knows - that's a who 'nother discussion in a whole ' nother thread. Also, I am NOT a 'Zombie Apocalypse' guy, or someone who thinks the world will collapse at any moment. But, I am someone who believes in natural disasters and human nature. Just look at Katrina, Sandy and Ferguson! As a 23+ year career firefighter, I learned a LONG time ago to never say never. I will never be surprised at what a human is capable of doing. I have the food and water stored to survive a disaster here until relief comes, but who knows what others have and when they see my house warm and toasty with 3 squares a day... well, better prepared is a good motto.

ANYWAYS... as someone who will not use it daily, is something like a ceramic level IV setup really needed? I know the argument about buy once, cry once. But in all honesty, they will not be used daily, they will not be used weekly - I'll pull them out occasionally for range day training, and stuff like that. Of course if the future Ferguson goes nationwide, then all bets are off.

But I'd be concerned about ceramic getting damaged if they get moved around the room. But then.. is steel really the answer? I guess I don't know enough about the varying levels of quality, rating and use. I'm learning, but I know a lot here are far, FAR more knowledgeable than I could ever hope to be. So school me! Weight is lower on the worry scale... I daily put on 30# of gear just to go to the grocery store on my truck, and 2-3 times a week I put on the full 60# of gear for actual work. But I'm sure it's a happy mix of weight, comfort and mostly quality.

But with the limited info given ([:D]) what would someone be happy with? minimalistic carrier? full blown size? Steel? 1/4"? 1/2"? ceramic? steel? Level III? Level IV?? I'm not opposed to quality and cost - I like my Tactical Tailor chest rig and pouches very much. Or is something like a cheapo Condor more than enough for the possibly SHTF use? Of course is there are 'secret' places to get higher end, lvl IV ceramic gear for not much more than steel, I'm all ears :o

But this is an area I know nothing about so I'm turning to the experts... but please, don't turn it into a 'you're nuts', 'you don't need one', 'the bill is dead', yada yada. I'm asking for info on the subject of carriers and plates. Thanks! (can you tell I'm tired of the attitude on other boards?!?)

[voodoo_man]

Totally depends on what you need them for.

I have both ar500 steel and ceramic's. Both do their job, the ceramics are bulky but 1/10 the weight of the ar500 steel, but the steel will take a dozen hits before it even starts to buckle.

I'd suggest starting out with a set of inexpensive ar500 plates, you can work out in them and get to know your PC and how it wears on you.

[Former11B]

There is give and take with steel and ceramic. Ideally I'd have a set of both but I only own a ceramic set (ESAPIs...green plates). It depends on what you're going to do with them. A set of SHTF plates I'd say steel but if you're going to be in them a lot the weight of the ceramic will benefit you. And since it's sort of a one time purchase I'd go with the highest threat level you can.

Even with the coating, I have seen AR500 plates deflect rounds that came in from an angle...the test I saw sent the fragments straight up to where a throat/face would be.

Ceramic plates are more durable than you might think. I spent a couple years in Iraq diving down on mine, slamming them into the steel of the turret in our humvee...no damage. Also, ceramic plates are designed to contour better; they are triple curved to fit your body. I haven't seen steel plates with more than two but there may have been new designs since I last looked

On my first trip in OIF before it got really regulated to death I used a Condor plate carrier rather than the issued IBA. Despite it being <$100, it held up great. Still have it and use it

[UWone77]

What's your budget?

[SwissyJim]

Totally depends on what you need them for.

I have both ar500 steel and ceramic's. Both do their job, the ceramics are bulky but 1/10 the weight of the ar500 steel, but the steel will take a dozen hits before it even starts to buckle.

I'd suggest starting out with a set of inexpensive ar500 plates, you can work out in them and get to know your PC and how it wears on you.



What's your budget?

thanks for the info... good to hear the ceramic are more durable. That was the one thing I read that was a downside. Not that I'd be hard on them... the occasional use at the range, I plan on taking some carbine classes, and crap like that. You know, just waiting for the Zombies [crazy]

As far as a budget, it's an item that I classify as a 'safety' item and therefore have no budget constraints, other than staying married. Kinda like the high end GPS and depthfinder on my boat, quality parts in my truck, pet insurance on my dogs, and so on. I'm sure I'd be divorced if I spent $2k tho...

[will0861]

I'd suggest looking at The Targetman. They sell triple curve AR500 steel, with a spall reducing coating. They also sell various composite plates in various threat levels and thicknesses. they also have numerous videos that show their plates getting shot to hell, and holding up really well. They just released a set of level IIIA plates that are semi flexible, and will stop most pistol rounds. Throw those in a carrier like the first spear slick, and most people would never know you're wearing armor. http://www.thetargetman.com/product/iiia-spartan-soft-body-armor-semi-flexible/

Just to confirm what others have said, no one plate is perfect. Steel is ultra durable, and will withstand more rounds than your likely to encounter. It is heavy, but it's low cost, thin, and durable. Most steel is only rated a level III. Which will stop most rifle rounds.

There are many variations on the composite plate. Some are ceramic, while some are a combination of ceramic and kevlar. Some newer plates are UHMWPE. Which is basically plastic. Most composite plates will be closer to an inch think, but lighter. Many composite plates are level IV, which will stop AP rounds.

One thing to be aware of, is that there are numerous protocols for testing armor. I'd suggest deciding what kind of rounds you want to stop. That will narrow down your search. Since price is less of a concern, you should find something you like.

[will0861]

And they're offering 15% off until 12/01 with free shipping.

[UWone77]

Jim,

I think all responsible gun owning citizens should have some type of armor, and train with it. I always wear some type when I go shooting either at the PD range out in public, because it's always nice to get used to using your firearm with it, as well as give you an added layer of protection if/when someone has an ND at the range.

Wearing a plate carrier is such a personal preference/mission specific thing. You have to find the perfect balance of weight, cost, and maneuverability. I agree with the previous post. The Targetman (Also A Giveaway sponsor) seems to have quality AR500 steel plates at a reasonable cost. Also, as previously mentioned, ceramic plates aren't as fragile as you think. However, based on cost/benefit, AR500 is the way to go. If you were going to wear this on a daily basis for work, I'd definitely go with ceramic, since it's lighter.

As for the carrier itself, I really like and am going towards minimalistic type plate carriers vs full on vests. For duty use I use a Tactical Tailor Fight Light carrier, and for range use, I'll use the Grey Ghost Gear Minimalist Plate Carrier.

I'll see if I can dig up some pics later.

[SwissyJim]

You know, I never thought about the whole ND thing... with some of the scares I've had at the range with all the new shooters, I went so far as to buy the extended membership that allows me use of the range on the 2 closed to the public days. I figure the other shooters there are possibly more responsible with the extra fees involved. And yes, I tried to help educate these new shooters (that scared the shit out of me and a couple of others) but was told on one occasion to "mind your own f%^&*(g business". Range officer was informed but no idea what transpired afterwards. That is a pretty good reason alone to buy something (besides just owning one to piss off legislators! LOL)

But, as it's not a daily duty carry thing (mine is sweatpants and bunny slippers while I eat ice cream and watch TV until I have to go rescue a cat from a tree btw) it's sounding like steel may be the way. I know the ceramics tout being 30.06 black tip capable, but for only a single round or multiple? Most I have looked at say single, but don't know if the ones I am looking at are reputable or not. And how do they do in regards to normal, lesser rounds like 308 and 556? Same as steel for multiple hits or is that something that varies by manufacturer since there seem to be different specs? Most just say they encompass the LVL III capabilities as well, so I'm assuming same as the steel, meaning multiple.

Thanks for the info... still have lots to learn. And Will, thanks for the info - nice to support a sponsor AND free shipping woudl be a HUGE bonus to me in Alaska... *if* they honor the shipping offer to me here (most specify lower 48 states only)

[Former11B]

From what I recall, most ceramic plates can take multiple hits if the shot pattern (assuming it's a high powered/AP round) is spread about the plate and not the same POI.

As far as scary people on the range...definitely seen a few. I asked a guy to stop handling his rifle during a range cold/cease fire and he gave me like a "oh it's ok, I was just adjusting the doo-dads..." And I turned to walk away and BOOOOOM! he let one fly. Fortunately no one was downrange. That was probably the worst offender Ive encountered

[SwissyJim]

And they're offering 15% off until 12/01 with free shipping.


From what I recall, most ceramic plates can take multiple hits if the shot pattern (assuming it's a high powered/AP round) is spread about the plate and not the same POI.

As far as scary people on the range...definitely seen a few. I asked a guy to stop handling his rifle during a range cold/cease fire and he gave me like a "oh it's ok, I was just adjusting the doo-dads..." And I turned to walk away and BOOOOOM! he let one fly. Fortunately no one was downrange. That was probably the worst offender Ive encountered

My worst was my wife and I were at the range plinking at my steel targets, and a carload of young men pulls up, and they pile out. They unbox a couple of AR's and my first worry was one guys was spinning a pmag around in his hands trying to figure out what direction the rounds went in. They got it dialed in, loaded up a full mag, popped it in and he stood up to the line and let it fly. Did probably 10-15 in rapid mode and turned around, WITH FINGER STILL ON THE TRIGGER and yells over his ear plugs about how he can see why everyone likes AR's.. it's just like Call of Duty! (no shit, he actually said that). We were two lanes down from him, and the guy between us sees whats going on and dives to the ground and yells at the guy. Of course said guy has a look like 'WTF is your problem' and swings back and puts the rifle down without touching the safety or anything. Guy next to us then walks over to them and tells him everything he just did and how he covered everyone at the lanes we were at with the weapon and the guy was still totally unfazed. Guy next to us packs up and leaves, and that when I walked over and asked since they seemed to be new and if they wanted any help or questions answered and the guy told me to mind my own effing business. Then the guy proceeds to pick up the rifle and stats popping rounds at my steel targets. It was then that I decided to buy the advanced membership. I called for a cold range and proceeded to pack up and leave. I'm sure I heard some comment regarding my manly status and running home to momma. But figured it was not worth it with my wife there and went in and 1) reported the group to the RSO and 2) paid in full for a membership.

[UWone77]

This is my plate carrier for active shooters. Tactical Tailor Fight Light

I figured if I'm responding to that kind of scene, I'll already have my soft armor on, and I can just throw this over.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab55/UWone77/IMG_1798_zps04883e84.jpg (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/UWone77/media/IMG_1798_zps04883e84.jpg.html)

[DutyUse]

For a guy who's looking to buy plates for "just in case" that are going to be stored for awhile I would think really hard before i chose a material.

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it already but age is a concern, ceramics do have a shelf life. Especially if you train in them. Here's one of mine that I've used a lot.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/11/28/2d30d7a69ed61e5b9b0726c721a8ac33.jpg

The face material glue is failing and peeling back and the bottom corners are slightly crushed in. It's never been dropped, just trained in. Not saying their better or worse then others just know the limitations.

[SwissyJim]

So I assume you mean soft class IIIa armor, but what plates do you run in the carrier?




all this may be taking a back burner.... just found out the wife needs yet another dental surgery and we've already hit the yearly max they will pay for dental. And she can't wait until Jan... stopped my BF searches dead cold.

[Former11B]

Ouch....that bites



/too soon?

[pm07]

One thing to also consider is the level rating you want. Some plates are stand alone, meaning you dont need soft armor, some are ICW. Which means they only will be the level rated with compatible soft armor underneath. Its a easy problem to solve though as buying the appropiate plate backers cover you there. Duty wise, I've gone from a straight PC to a combined armor/plate carrier. My duty position allowed me to pick and chose as I wanted.

[SwissyJim]

Ouch....that bites



/too soon?
HAHA! No, never too soon, not with my sense of humor. Thankfully my wife shares the same. You can imagine the comments I've already made to her about ... well, use your imagination!

[UWone77]

Here's my range vest. Tactical Tailor Low Profile Carrier, an older version.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab55/UWone77/IMG_1579_zps4ec56673.jpg (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/UWone77/media/IMG_1579_zps4ec56673.jpg.html)

[Ordnance]

This is my plate carrier for active shooters. Tactical Tailor Fight Light

I figured if I'm responding to that kind of scene, I'll already have my soft armor on, and I can just throw this over.

http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab55/UWone77/IMG_1798_zps04883e84.jpg (http://s849.photobucket.com/user/UWone77/media/IMG_1798_zps04883e84.jpg.html)

I wish TT would start putting more specs up online. Out of curiosity and no rush, would you mind dropping that thing on a scale with the load out as it is and telling me what it weighs?

[alamo5000]

... with the bill before the legislature possibly banning private citizens from owning them, I want to piss them off and buy a set.

Bill? Do provide details. A bill in front of which legislature? Is this a local thing or Federal?

Do tell.

On a side note maybe we should start a thread 'if there was a zombie apocalypse what would you really want to have, money is no object' thread :) I think that would be fun... LOL

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Bill? Do provide details. A bill in front of which legislature? Is this a local thing or Federal?

Do tell.

On a side note maybe we should start a thread 'if there was a zombie apocalypse what would you really want to have, money is no object' thread :) I think that would be fun... LOL

You want to start another thread... :sigh: lol

And yes it could be...

[alamo5000]

You want to start another thread... :sigh: lol

And yes it could be...

Yer bustin' my balls again :P LOL j/k

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Yer bustin' my balls again :P LOL j/k

Just picking up where UW left off...

[alamo5000]

Just picking up where UW left off...

SMH. I don't know if I'm ever gonna live this down[:D] LOL

[SwissyJim]

SMH. I don't know if I'm ever gonna live this down[:D] LOL

nope

[SwissyJim]

oh, and this.... Bill HR5344 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/5344/text)

I haven't kept up on it, all I've read lately is people are saying BUY BUY BUY - but that's the shops that SELL SELL SELL.
Will it pass? dunno, but I do know that since I've been considering the option, that I should before it does potentially pass. Once my wife's oral surgery bills are paid off. again.

[alamo5000]

oh, and this.... Bill HR5344 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/113th-congress/house-bill/5344/text)

I haven't kept up on it, all I've read lately is people are saying BUY BUY BUY - but that's the shops that SELL SELL SELL.
Will it pass? dunno, but I do know that since I've been considering the option, that I should before it does potentially pass. Once my wife's oral surgery bills are paid off. again.

Here are the bill's sponsors:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Kelly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcee_Hastings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Pascrell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Honda

Not a single Republican. And here is where the 4 are from, California (San Francisco Bay area), Illinois (more specifically Chicago), New Jersey, and Florida (the hanging chad area to be more specific) and all are known to be very left, not even moderate left.

I would venture to say that bill ain't going no where.

It was introduced (put into the hopper) to be researched by this committee:

http://judiciary.house.gov/index.cfm/subcommittee-on-crime-terrorism-homeland-security-and-investigations

That committee has to pass it in order for it to proceed.

The chairman of said committee is here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/house/James_Sensenbrenner_Gun_Control.htm

The Vice Chairman represents a big spot of East Texas kind of near where I am from.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/louie-gohmert-guns_n_2311379.html

And it's possible, but unlikely that the committee will change with the 114th Congress which seats in January.

As of right now 10 of the 15 people on the committee are A rated by the NRA on 2nd Amendment issues (including one Democrat). The other 5 are very pro-gun control.

[Stone]

Prognosis
7% chance of getting past committee.
2% chance of being enacted

[alamo5000]

Prognosis
7% chance of getting past committee.
2% chance of being enacted

You're a generous man. LOL

[SwissyJim]

True, but with the climate these days, I'm not betting on anything - never was a gambler. Just the fact it's been introduced is enough to sway my indecision on getting some. Much like my Trust I setup... I was on the fence then comes along the ATF proposed changes. Boom... I had a trust that week. If I wasn't on the fence about the armor, I wouldn't worry about it. All it did was confirm my choice.

And BTW... lets stay on track for plates and carriers - you want to discuss thebill, it's chances, etc...thats for another thread.

[Ordnance]

Prognosis
7% chance of getting past committee.
2% chance of being enacted

And dropping with every election... ;)

[voodoo_man]

Are we sharing armor pix?

Tyr Tactical BPC, no side plates, front and rear only, built in front mag pouches.

http://i.imgur.com/ouMMmS3.jpg

I prefer speed over armor.

[Stone]

And BTW... lets stay on track for plates and carriers - you want to discuss thebill, it's chances, etc...thats for another thread.


" with the bill before the legislature possibly banning private citizens from owning them, I want to piss them off and buy a set. I've thought about it for awhile and finally made the choice o do it. Now, will the bill pass? Who knows"

You brought it up in your original post so its as much a part of this thread as carriers. Dude, let the moderators moderate. If people have opinions and suggestions, well, this is a forum...

[SwissyJim]

Man, you just can't let it go, can you? Here, let me help with your reading comprehension skills. I also said - "but please, don't turn it into a 'you're nuts', 'you don't need one', 'the bill is dead', yada yada. I'm asking for info on the subject of carriers and plates."
not I'm asking you for your political opinions, what do you think are the chances of the bill passing. PLATES AND CARRIERS. I wasn't asking if you did know if the bill would pass - it was rhetorical, like 'only the Shadow knows...'

[Former11B]

Are we sharing armor pix?

Tyr Tactical BPC, no side plates, front and rear only, built in front mag pouches.

http://i.imgur.com/ouMMmS3.jpg

I prefer speed over armor.

I need to take a picture of mine. I only run front and rear plates also but the side panels are in place just for optional MOLLE space or if something dictates the hard side plates...otherwise I save the weight. I run 3x rifle mags and 2x pistol. I'd like to replace them with bungee retention pouches eventually but it works so the $$ goes to stuff I don't have or needs replacing/replenishing

[voodoo_man]

It depends on your mission, obviously.

I don't run pistol mags on my kit, in fact I only have one reload, maybe in my pocket for my pistol.

If I am running a rifle its a "go fast" type of situation that requires a rifle to fix.

[dlquinn71]

What's the opinion of the first spear first on carrier? Usage would be in line with OP senario.

[voodoo_man]

What's the opinion of the first spear first on carrier? Usage would be in line with OP senario.

Ive messed with one.

If you already have soft armor on, it works well for being a preloaded PC that you just put on and go.