Range musings

[gatordev]

Sometimes it's just fun to go to the range and discover stuff. Whether it's about your gun, your abilities, or random stuff you find other people doing. I figured why not have a thread about that.

WARNING: Nothing that I post in here is supposed to be earth-shattering. I can't vouch for other people's posts, but sometimes just "seeing things" helps with learning the sport.


So for the last few weeks, my wife has been spending a lot of time away caring for her ailing mother. She's been gone all of this week and I was told that a trip to the range this weekend after she was back wouldn't be received well. Message received. So I managed to get off a little early Friday and head down to do a couple of "maintenance shooting" items I needed to do. One of the two things I needed to do was check the accuracy of my SR-15. Lots of fan boys seem to gush at how accurate these rifles are, especially for the barrel profile. Overall, I think this is an amazingly lightweight rifle with decent accuracy, but that's not an abnormal occurrence nowadays with all of the options out there (thank you Centurion Arms, BCM, and Noveske, among others).

Over the last year, shooting mostly PPU M193 and PMC XTAC M193, the accuracy has been...meh. By no means do I consider myself a super-elite sniper. I get distracted and throw rounds all the time. I also loathe shooting for groups, but it's an occasional skill that's worth practicing, in my opinion. Typically I get around 2-3 MOA out of this rifle with that ammo and an ACOG TA-01 NSN.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/SR-15leftSide_zps91a10de9.jpg

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/SR-15side_zpsfb1abb56.jpg

My plan is to take this rifle with me to MT in a week and leave it there for when I visit every so often. Apparently there's a range there with steel out to 400m and this seems like a great use of this rifle, especially when I can plink with my dad while visiting. However, with it's average accuracy, I wanted to make sure I wasn't taking something that wasn't going to be more frustration than fun. So, I brought along some Black Hills Blue Box .223 77gr ammo just to see what might change.

Again, the gun is probably more accurate with either ammo than I am, but the results below really show how the bullet (and ammo) can make the difference. Red line is the PPU M193 (with, I'm sure, some shooter error). The bulls eye holes are the BH ammo. With a better shooter who wasn't in a rush, the group probably would be tighter, but still, neat to see.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/SR15ppum193223BlackHills_zps434a126f.jpg

I'll probably be shooting mostly Federal M193 in MT, but still, I'm not worried about the rifle anymore. I may miss a bit more with the lighter rounds, but at least I know I don't need to worry about the rifle, if there was ever a question.

[gatordev]

I mentioned the above experience to my wife today while we were running errands and said I was taking and probably leaving this rifle in a place she couldn't get to it. She's shot this rifle before with a can on it and actually enjoyed the experience. She's historically been unenthusiastic about shooting a centerfire AR, so to hear her say she enjoyed it, to include the optic so she could see her hits, well, that's an important data point. So I guess that means I'll be in the market for a new low(er) power optic to put on one of my other ARs. It never ends. But I'm sure Primary Arms will be of assistance, and if it helps get my wife to the range and enjoy the experience more, then I'd say it's worth the expense.

[alamo5000]

How far away was the target pictured above?

[Former11B]

If she enjoys that rifle so much, is the option of building an identical one for her to use locally a possibility?

Nice rifle and looks like a super nice day outside for shooting! I am also curious about the distance as well

[gatordev]

How far away was the target pictured above?

Weird...I thought I put in there that it was at 100 yards. Maybe it got lost in an edit. Anyway, someone else could probably shoot more consistently, so not trying to say it's the end all result.


If she enjoys that rifle so much, is the option of building an identical one for her to use locally a possibility?

Absolutely, and I think that's where things are headed. As I mentioned, I'll need to find a more cost-effective option for an optic, which I'm guessing is heading towards Primary Arms' direction.


Nice rifle and looks like a super nice day outside for shooting! I am also curious about the distance as well

Full disclosure, the rifle pics are actually from when I was still stationed out in CA. There's lots to love about FL, but mountain vistas isn't one of them.

[Former11B]

Weird...I thought I put in there that it was at 100 yards. Maybe it got lost in an edit. Anyway, someone else could probably shoot more consistently, so not trying to say it's the end all result.

Absolutely, and I think that's where things are headed. As I mentioned, I'll need to find a more cost-effective option for an optic, which I'm guessing is heading towards Primary Arms' direction.


Full disclosure, the rifle pics are actually from when I was still stationed out in CA. There's lots to love about FL, but mountain vistas isn't one of them.

LOL I was thinking it looked like West Texas rather than Florida but with the terrain variation in SC I figured it might be possible

The PA Optic is nice...I considered it heavily but may require more than a 1-6x. Depending on how much magnification you need, I was debating Bushnell AR optics 3-12x40 or 4-18x40 scopes (PSA had the 4-18x on sale for $150 (reg $299 during recent sales). The have adjustable objective lens and adjustable turrets...decent glass and performance for not a lot

[markm]

You might search around for the Magtec (CBC) 77 Mk 262 clone. Black Hills isn't that great. And a lot of people are reporting the Magtec shoots a tad better at nearly half the price.

PPU and PMC are good reliable blasting loads... but yeah... they're far from a Match style ammo.

[gatordev]

LOL I was thinking it looked like West Texas rather than Florida but with the terrain variation in SC I figured it might be possible

The PA Optic is nice...I considered it heavily but may require more than a 1-6x. Depending on how much magnification you need, I was debating Bushnell AR optics 3-12x40 or 4-18x40 scopes (PSA had the 4-18x on sale for $150 (reg $299 during recent sales). The have adjustable objective lens and adjustable turrets...decent glass and performance for not a lot

6x would be the most I would need. After doing some reading this weekend, it looks like I'd have to spend a little more to get the type of reticule I'd want (some sort of simple cross type with either sub-tensions or a simple BDC). I found a SWFA 1-6 that looks like it has lots of rave reviews, but it's also ~$1000 before the mount. Honestly, I'm thinking just getting another used ACOG may make the most sense. But this will have to be a post-holiday decision. For now, I'm broke thanks to holiday cheer.


You might search around for the Magtec (CBC) 77 Mk 262 clone. Black Hills isn't that great. And a lot of people are reporting the Magtec shoots a tad better at nearly half the price.

PPU and PMC are good reliable blasting loads... but yeah... they're far from a Match style ammo.

Yeah, didn't mean to make it sound like I thought those were anything other than fun rounds. I'll have to keep my eye out for the Magtec. I only have a couple of boxes left of the BH that I bought several years ago for a class. I think I still have 700-800 rounds of some 77gr from Southwest Ammo, which I've been very happy with in my MK12. Thanks for the recommendation.

[FortTom]

Hell, I'm just glad to see someone's getting to shoot, something, somewhere....[:D] I just finished my AR-10, wanted to shoot it off bench, offhand, and prone and it's been unusually weird weather, either 4.5 in. of snow, and since that melted, Noah's Ark type rain fall. It's cold and the range is under about 2 inches of water.:mad:

Seriously, glad to see some folks posting about shooting plus the pic's, even though I have to admit I'm jealous as hell.

FT[:D]

[Ordnance]

gatordev where in FL are you located?

[Ordnance]

Hell, I'm just glad to see someone's getting to shoot, something, somewhere....[:D] I just finished my AR-10, wanted to shoot it off bench, offhand, and prone and it's been unusually weird weather, either 4.5 in. of snow, and since that melted, Noah's Ark type rain fall. It's cold and the range is under about 2 inches of water.:mad:

Seriously, glad to see some folks posting about shooting plus the pic's, even though I have to admit I'm jealous as hell.

FT[:D]


That's the best time to shoot... lol...[crazy]

[Ordnance]

Depending on how much magnification you need, I was debating Bushnell AR optics 3-12x40 or 4-18x40 scopes (PSA had the 4-18x on sale for $150 (reg $299 during recent sales). The have adjustable objective lens and adjustable turrets...decent glass and performance for not a lot

I have several friends shooting for Team Bushnell and one of my close friends locally is using the GDMR. I've never been a fan of Bushnell's lower line offerings, but their elite tactical series are nice. If you decide you want to go that route let me know and I can see if there's some better than average deal to be had.

[Computalotapus]

That's the best time to shoot... lol...[crazy]


Because the range is empty? I am lucky that 99% of the members at our club are elderly and on a Sunday the range is pretty empty. We have been members for over 2 years and I have only seen other members there twice. The great part is it is a decent sportsman's club.

[Ordnance]

Because the range is empty? I am lucky that 99% of the members at our club are elderly and on a Sunday the range is pretty empty. We have been members for over 2 years and I have only seen other members there twice. The great part is it is a decent sportsman's club.

I like shooting in bad weather because I'm in WA and 75%+ of the matches end up doing positional shooting in inclement weather. I'm also a big fan of long range shooting, so to me bad weather also equates to more practice against ever changing and uncontrollable variables. It's also good for hunters. I see Guys that get their zeroes from a covered bench at sea level then jump to 3K+ ASL and aren't able to create the most stable shooting positions possible because of the environment and they talk about a shot they "wish" they would have made that they could have if they stepped out of their comfort level. I know it's not for everybody, but just my opinion...

[gatordev]

gatordev where in FL are you located?

Jax...or NE Florida for those that aren't familiar.


Because the range is empty? I am lucky that 99% of the members at our club are elderly and on a Sunday the range is pretty empty. We have been members for over 2 years and I have only seen other members there twice. The great part is it is a decent sportsman's club.

That's the best. The first time I lived in Jax, I discovered the range I go to and it's a fantastic playground, but busy on the weekend. At the time, I generally worked 2 of the 4 weekends every month since I was with a Reserve unit. As a result, I'd go shoot on a Monday or Tuesday morning and other than some random LE group on the dedicated bay, it was pretty quiet. Now that I'm back but have to generally work M-F, I'm not able to enjoy the luxury of a low-traffic range. But with the right timing, I've found a generally decent time to go on a Saturday that will often get me a bay with no one else. And since I'm a regular, I can sometimes get permission to go back to the competition bays if they're not busy and just work drills there, since I've (hopefully) proven I'm not an idiot and can be trusted back there.

[Ordnance]

Jax...or NE Florida for those that aren't familiar.

I would highly suggest checking out K&M. It's a little bit of a drive, but you can get some serious DOPE for your rig and see what it's accuracy is with guys who are well versed with AR's in more of a precision role. The guys there are literally some of the top shooters in the US for precision field shooting. If you've never heard of them you should check them out.

kmprecisionrifletraining.com (http://kmprecisionrifletraining.com/)

[FortTom]

I like shooting in bad weather because I'm in WA and 75%+ of the matches end up doing positional shooting in inclement weather. I'm also a big fan of long range shooting, so to me bad weather also equates to more practice against ever changing and uncontrollable variables. It's also good for hunters. I see Guys that get their zeroes from a covered bench at sea level then jump to 3K+ ASL and aren't able to create the most stable shooting positions possible because of the environment and they talk about a shot they "wish" they would have made that they could have if they stepped out of their comfort level. I know it's not for everybody, but just my opinion...

Ordinance, I've shot in rain, hail storms, snow, marsh, mud, standing stinking slime and leech filled water, tick, flea and ant infested grass, and mostly in 100 or higher heat in the desert, on razor shard rocks, 1 in. thorns, hell, I've even watched rattlesnakes cross my path shooting prone, and more than once. That being said, do you know why I don't do it now? Because I DON't EFF"N HAVE TOO!....[:D][:D] and some day you'll make that exact same decision for yourself...[:)]

FT

[GOST]

I've shot outta my portable lawn chair, my daughters' swing set and outta a tree house. You know why? Neither do I.[BD]

[FortTom]

I've shot outta my portable lawn chair, my daughters' swing set and outta a tree house. You know why? Neither do I.[BD]
Gost, did you quit taking those pretty blue pills the nice doctor gave you, again? You know we all promised you a nice cold glass of chocolate milk to wash them down with.....:P

[GOST]

Gost, did you quit taking those pretty blue pills the nice doctor gave you, again? You know we all promised you a nice cold glass of chocolate milk to wash them down with.....:P

Yeah, I try not to take them before my physicals at work.[BD]

[GOST]

One of these days I'm gonna make a collapsable paddle stock. Then I'm gonna release my Canoe Dynamics Carbine videos.

[FortTom]

One of these days I'm gonna make a collapsable paddle stock. Then I'm gonna release my Canoe Dynamics Carbine videos.
The pills, GOST, the damn pills....then we'll get you that nice glass of chocolate milk....yuuummmmmm:P

[gatordev]

I would highly suggest checking out K&M. It's a little bit of a drive, but you can get some serious DOPE for your rig and see what it's accuracy is with guys who are well versed with AR's in more of a precision role. The guys there are literally some of the top shooters in the US for precision field shooting. If you've never heard of them you should check them out.

kmprecisionrifletraining.com (http://kmprecisionrifletraining.com/)

I have seen these guys before when I thought I might be stationed over at Pensacola again. Crestview is definitely a hike from here, but I may keep it in mind. I was hoping Caylen from Magpul was coming back to Volusia County again this year, as I've enjoyed his classes before, but I don't see it on their calendar yet, which is a bummer.

I do have to chuckle at reading bios when I know what their actual job entailed. I guess that's how it works...talk up your military experience even if it doesn't actually apply to the subject matter you're teaching.

[Ordnance]

Ordinance, I've shot in rain, hail storms, snow, marsh, mud, standing stinking slime and leech filled water, tick, flea and ant infested grass, and mostly in 100 or higher heat in the desert, on razor shard rocks, 1 in. thorns, hell, I've even watched rattlesnakes cross my path shooting prone, and more than once. That being said, do you know why I don't do it now? Because I DON't EFF"N HAVE TOO!....[:D][:D] and some day you'll make that exact same decision for yourself...[:)]

FT

I guess I'm retarded enough to still like it. I'm sure that will change as I get older... lol

[Ordnance]

I have seen these guys before when I thought I might be stationed over at Pensacola again. Crestview is definitely a hike from here, but I may keep it in mind. I was hoping Caylen from Magpul was coming back to Volusia County again this year, as I've enjoyed his classes before, but I don't see it on their calendar yet, which is a bummer.

I do have to chuckle at reading bios when I know what their actual job entailed. I guess that's how it works...talk up your military experience even if it doesn't actually apply to the subject matter you're teaching.

I know Caylen and he does some good classes and I know his quals, but I prefer the guys at K&M because there are things you don't know and can't read about. I'm not sure what you mean though on the Bio's since Shannon is an active duty Capt and sniper, and Kurt was 1st SFG. Mike was only a Rescue Swimmer, but he as well as Bryan Morgan who owns the facility are phenomenal shooters that also train with guys who use their facilities. Bryan Morgan is on Team GAP(As well as Kurt and Shannon) and the top shooter in the PRS last year. Group even goes out there occasionally and uses their facilities training with them because they're phenomenal at their craft which is practical long distance field shooting. I'm just saying your closer than most to what is considered one the top training facilities for precision rifle shooting.

[gatordev]

I'm just saying your closer than most to what is considered one the top training facilities for precision rifle shooting.

Interesting. You've piqued my interest. What I really "need" is a reliable bolt gun as I don't fully trust my SR-25 right now. Unfortunately, if I'm going to do it right, I want to go with a 6.5 Creedmore, which appears to be either be a) more complicated than buying a .308 from scratch or b) more expensive to build one. Things would be a lot easier if money wasn't an issue, you know?


I know Caylen and he does some good classes and I know his quals, but I prefer the guys at K&M because there are things you don't know and can't read about. I'm not sure what you mean though on the Bio's since Shannon is an active duty Capt and sniper, and Kurt was 1st SFG. Mike was only a Rescue Swimmer, but he as well as Bryan Morgan who owns the facility are phenomenal shooters that also train with guys who use their facilities. Bryan Morgan is on Team GAP(As well as Kurt and Shannon) and the top shooter in the PRS last year. Group even goes out there occasionally and uses their facilities training with them because they're phenomenal at their craft which is practical long distance field shooting.

One thing that I greatly appreciate about Caylen is his ability to teach. I say that as someone who has been instructing complex machine manipulation (ie, flying military hardware) for 10 years now. But I also hate to have a closed mind, so I'll take your rec onboard and add it to the "training spreadsheet," which is usually over-ruled by the "household budget" if you know what I mean.

I'm just poking fun at the description of a "CSAR Crewman." That sounds way more sexy than "guy who flew x hundred of hours of SSC in support of GWOT," which is probably a more realistic depiction.

[Ordnance]

Interesting. You've piqued my interest. What I really "need" is a reliable bolt gun as I don't fully trust my SR-25 right now. Unfortunately, if I'm going to do it right, I want to go with a 6.5 Creedmore, which appears to be either be a) more complicated than buying a .308 from scratch or b) more expensive to build one. Things would be a lot easier if money wasn't an issue, you know?



One thing that I greatly appreciate about Caylen is his ability to teach. I say that as someone who has been instructing complex machine manipulation (ie, flying military hardware) for 10 years now. But I also hate to have a closed mind, so I'll take your rec onboard and add it to the "training spreadsheet," which is usually over-ruled by the "household budget" if you know what I mean.

I'm just poking fun at the description of a "CSAR Crewman." That sounds way more sexy than "guy who flew x hundred of hours of SSC in support of GWOT," which is probably a more realistic depiction.

Bolts are only more reliable because they have 1 recoil impulse instead of 3, so your lock time isn't like it is on an AR which magnifies every little flaw in the shooters technique. If you want to pick up a bolt rig then you need to expect to pay a little more than even the upper tier pricing of ARs. 6.5CM is definitely one of the better options since it has a longer barrel life and unless you're shooting comps I don't think you'll notice the performance difference. If you really want the heat though with a flat trajectory and great BC I would look at a 6mm SLR or a 6.5 CM SAUM. Check out the forums like Snipershide and Long Range Hunting because you'd be surprised what you can pick up for a good price from some of the guys with rifle A.D.D. and save yourself some coin. If I were going to build out a comp rig right now I'd do a 6.5 CM SAUM on a Defiance action with a 26" Bartlien Barrel and probably a KMW Sentinel chassis. If you have any questions though about chassis choices, gear, or glass don't hesitate to ask me since I've been hands on with almost everything under the sun and know a LOT of people in the world who give real user experience.

Caylen is a great teacher. He just needs to lessen his complaint level at matches when he's not performing so well and not try to blame the RO's range estimation when everyone else was hitting that day with the distance given, lol. I wouldn't recommend anyone that I don't 100% support and know would do a good job which is why I suggested them since you're closer than most. If you were here in the NW then I'd be putting you with my friend Scott who runs Precision Tactical Solutions, or Karl over at International Service Group, or Caylen since he's also a local. Steve Aryan with Grey Fox Industries in Tulsa, OK also runs a great LR class.

[Former11B]

I have several friends shooting for Team Bushnell and one of my close friends locally is using the GDMR. I've never been a fan of Bushnell's lower line offerings, but their elite tactical series are nice. If you decide you want to go that route let me know and I can see if there's some better than average deal to be had.

Thank you for the offer. It will be a few months before I am able to start shopping around, but when I do, I'll see if anything I'm looking at can be gotten at a better deal

[gatordev]

A new day, and a new range objective... Find out why my M1A Scout is racist.

Well, maybe not racist, but she certainly doesn't like Serbians. I can't explain the bias, but she's been steadfast in making her point. To date, I've been trying to encourage her to zero PPU 145gr rounds. She has, thus far, laughed at me, creating various random patterns of holes that could be matched with a shotgun...or a reh-tard with a gun. I've used both a 1-4 and a red dot. No luck. I was wondering if maybe her dress was a little too tight for her, but figured I'd first start with some 175 SMKs today to see where everything stood. Turns out, after 5 rounds, she grouped at ~3 inches (with a red dot...the shooter was probably to blame for going over 2" and the 5th round was off the target and on the cardboard...and yeah, I know 5 shots isn't as reliable as 10, but I didn't want to waste ammo proving something that seemed pretty straightforward). Hmmm, apparently the Serbians really are to blame...

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/M1AScout175SMK_zpseadd2d33.jpg

So, given she doesn't like Eastern Europe, could I expect better performance from a 147-149 gr 'Merican bullet? Or maybe just a heavier 168 bullet? I'm not super-savvy on weight vs. make and how it affects a barrel, so I welcome any insight.

[Ordnance]

A new day, and a new range objective... Find out why my M1A Scout is racist.

Well, maybe not racist, but she certainly doesn't like Serbians. I can't explain the bias, but she's been steadfast in making her point. To date, I've been trying to encourage her to zero PPU 145gr rounds. She has, thus far, laughed at me, creating various random patterns of holes that could be matched with a shotgun...or a reh-tard with a gun. I've used both a 1-4 and a red dot. No luck. I was wondering if maybe her dress was a little too tight for her, but figured I'd first start with some 175 SMKs today to see where everything stood. Turns out, after 5 rounds, she grouped at ~3 inches (with a red dot...the shooter was probably to blame for going over 2" and the 5th round was off the target and on the cardboard...and yeah, I know 5 shots isn't as reliable as 10, but I didn't want to waste ammo proving something that seemed pretty straightforward). Hmmm, apparently the Serbians really are to blame...

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/M1AScout175SMK_zpseadd2d33.jpg

So, given she doesn't like Eastern Europe, could I expect better performance from a 147-149 gr 'Merican bullet? Or maybe just a heavier 168 bullet? I'm not super-savvy on weight vs. make and how it affects a barrel, so I welcome any insight.

Honestly every rifle has a load preference unique to itself. If you're going to do factory loads I would personally buy several boxes of varying ammo from 149-175 in different brands and see which groups better. Also, you get what you pay for so try some decent match ammo like FGMM or maybe BH.