PDA

View Full Version : Suppressor Knowledge



alamo5000
9 December 2014, 19:30
I am strongly considering filing all the proper forms for a trust and starting to save for a suppressor. Given I have a very long want list so I have to decide where along the line a suppressor really fits in. That being said part of my process that I take before making any kind of 'major' purchase is to first learn about whatever it is I am thinking about buying.

After that I think it over, then I oogle over it, then I make a calculated choice. In other words I don't do much impulse buying. I would just assume learn and save and then buy the 'best' choice for me from the get go.

I know there are numerous types of suppressor designs. Here is just a sample of what I am talking about.

Stacked Baffles

http://www.dakotasilencer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Silencer-baffles-mono-vs-stacked.jpg

The One Piece

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss2007/huge/AAC033.jpg

And there are probably many other types. I have even seen some types that go over the barrel and others that have springs in them.

Just like with everything else I dive into the sheer numbers of styles and types are daunting. Initially I am attracted to the one piece type. To me they seem like they are less prone to fail. There are not multiple parts and to me more simple is better. Of course I want effective but I am not sure of the complex designs.

What are the pros and cons to one type or the other? I personally would like one that I can take apart and clean if I want to. But what I am really asking is for a basic discussion on pros and cons of these sometimes funky designs you can find by searching google.

A second question that might be a bit more straight forward is what kind of effects does running a suppressor have on the gun itself? By nature a suppressor captures the muzzle blast and contains it... and by default you wind up with much more back pressure.

If you did nothing else how much would it increase pressure on say a 5.56? (but feel free to enlighten me about others if you want). Would running a suppressor cause a more violent slam of the Bolt on an AR? I also assume it does make your gun run dirty because simply put you are trapping a lot of those gases. Is an adjustable gas block really a 'must' or is that more of a nicety? Is any consideration given to the buffer spring?

I've shot with a suppressor on a number of times, but not a lot. I recall once I shot a suppressed pistol and the whole time I was getting peppered in the face. I guess it was just blow back.

Basically what are the things to look for if I were to purchase something?

As a side note to this I am no where near buying or owning a suppressor (for now) but within the next 6 months or so I realistically could get set up and have the money to file the papers and all that stuff. It could be sooner than that but I am being general. Also please note I am not really talking or asking about the pros and cons of buying direct or setting up a trust or any of the legal part... I am talking technical here for right now. Later on once I learn more about what I am in for technically speaking then we can get more into the nuts and bolts of the legalese.

But for now which kind of suppressor works better? Which style do you like better and why? Are stacked baffles easier to get baffle strikes vs say the one piece design?

Does barrel length effect anything significant in relation the performance of the suppressor?

Of course the mount does matter too... Some fit over a muzzle device, others slide a few inches over the barrel, others screw right on the barrel. Some have a quick detach function and others do not. I understand to some degree but over time I will have to develop a preference for one or the other.

Anyway you guys get the picture here... so please share some knowledge and/or experience so that I can (eventually) make a wise choice.

Thompson
9 December 2014, 20:00
I don't know much about suppressors either, but from the bits and pieces of digging I've done - I'm slightly more inclined to stacked baffles (at the moment) mainly because of the ease of cleaning (compared to a single piece suppressor).

Ordnance
9 December 2014, 23:27
You may not need to clean it as much as you think. Also, yes baffles are important but don't get focused on the baffles themselves as much as the quality and overall design along with any feature you may want. The most important question... What do you plan to use it on primarily?

Thompson
10 December 2014, 02:36
You may not need to clean it as much as you think.
Does the type of round dictate how dirty it gets? Ie: .22LR lead nose?

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 03:50
You may not need to clean it as much as you think. Also, yes baffles are important but don't get focused on the baffles themselves as much as the quality and overall design along with any feature you may want. The most important question... What do you plan to use it on primarily?

For right now I am focusing on having one for my AR15.

What constitutes a good build and overall design? Cleaning and maintenance is just one aspect of that...

tact
10 December 2014, 06:50
Do you clean your muffler? Cans don't require that much cleaning unless you are choosing to fire lead through it. They perform better dirty anyway.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 07:06
Do you clean your muffler? Cans don't require that much cleaning unless you are choosing to fire lead through it. They perform better dirty anyway.

If I owned one I might clean it up from time to time. LOL :) at least that's what I was thinking. At least to have the option.

MoxyDave
10 December 2014, 09:35
.22lr cans get dirty. Other calibers typically vaporize the junk so it doesn't build up. I prefer a monocore design for .22lr, and I just throw the whole thing in "the dip" for a couple hours to clean it every 1000 rounds or so.

UWone77
10 December 2014, 09:47
Shooting jacketed .22 in my experience helps as well. To my ear, monocore and stacked baffles in .22 cans sound about the same.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 10:07
Shooting jacketed .22 in my experience helps as well. To my ear, monocore and stacked baffles in .22 cans sound about the same.

Assume we are talking about something bigger...say a .308 for discussion purposes ... Does one work better than the other?

Former11B
10 December 2014, 10:20
Alamo, Take a breather before you confuse yourself. You need to figure out WHAT you want to suppress before you figure out which baffle stack you like the best; indivdual K baffle stacks vs monocores (not "The one piece" lol) I'm going to take a second and dissect your first post. I'll edit my answers back in here when I'm done.

EDIT:



Stacked Baffles

The One Piece

And there are probably many other types. I have even seen some types that go over the barrel and others that have springs in them.

The suppressors with springs are pistol cans. Suppressors used on moving barrels, like a Glock for example, need a booster piston (the spring) to soak up the recoil and movement of the barrel in order for the pistol to cycle properly. If you use a booster piston on a fixed barrel, the spring and suppressor will jackhammer the threads...no good. But running a can with no booster on a moving barrel will likely cause the gun to have serious cycling issues. These boosters have specific notches that keep them in place, so what is moving is only what needs to move, to prevent failures.

The "over the barrel" cans are called Reflex Suppressors. They are typically seen in precision semiauto rifles, and examples are OPS INC/Allen Engineering and the Griffin Armament SPR. They are extremely quiet suppressors, as they are typically longer than most, yet reduce Overall Length very little due to coming back over the barrel due to the mount design.


Just like with everything else I dive into the sheer numbers of styles and types are daunting. Initially I am attracted to the one piece type. To me they seem like they are less prone to fail. There are not multiple parts and to me more simple is better. Of course I want effective but I am not sure of the complex designs.

What are the pros and cons to one type or the other? I personally would like one that I can take apart and clean if I want to. But what I am really asking is for a basic discussion on pros and cons of these sometimes funky designs you can find by searching google.

Typically you only see monocores in .22lr suppressors, but not all .22 suppressors use them. The monocore design is very effective, but does have more First Round Pop than a Baffle Stack, just due to the design. FRP is the phenomenon caused by the oxygen in the suppressor when the first shot goes off, making it slightly louder than the subsequent shots due to the CO in the can. All modern .22 cans are user serviceable, whether monocore or baffle stack, due to the build up of lead over time. I have found even using copper jacketed American Eagle Suppressor ammo that lead still builds up due to the thin plating...not as quickly but ALL .22 AMMO IS DIRTY.

A lot of manufacturers are making their 9mm/.45 pistol cans user serviceable now due to people getting the most bang for their buck and wanting to use them on a variety of guns like .22lr, 300 BLK Subsonic, etc so they can use LEAD bullets and have the ability to clean the cans out.

If you are shooting nothing but jacketed centerfire rifle through a suppressor, like a 5.56 or 7.62, you DO NOT NEED a serviceable suppressor, and most rifle cans are not serviceable, due to the amount of pressures they see, they NEED to be fully welded and a solid unit. Huntertown Arms makes a serviceable 5.56 can and I've seen several pictures of them failing at the threads. No thanks.


A second question that might be a bit more straight forward is what kind of effects does running a suppressor have on the gun itself? By nature a suppressor captures the muzzle blast and contains it... and by default you wind up with much more back pressure.

If you did nothing else how much would it increase pressure on say a 5.56? (but feel free to enlighten me about others if you want). Would running a suppressor cause a more violent slam of the Bolt on an AR? I also assume it does make your gun run dirty because simply put you are trapping a lot of those gases. Is an adjustable gas block really a 'must' or is that more of a nicety? Is any consideration given to the buffer spring?

Lets take an M4/AR15 for example. You'll see increased temperatures, increased cyclic rate, increased fouling, and get blowback (particulate matter blowing back in your face...really noticeable in pistols) etc from all the trapped and returned hot, dirty gases being recycled into the gun. This can be mitigated using something like an adjustable gas block (Syac, MicroMOA) or a gas adjustable upper receiver (Innovative Arms WAR). I personally use a WAR on one of my ARs and it is simply amazing. I would like 2 more to run on my other guns. I understand this isn't an option for guys who have, say, a matched Noveske Upper/Lower, but WAR uppers are great. I have found it really softens/dampens the recoil, I get no blowback, and it reduces the cyclic rate of the bolt. I haven't found the need to swap out my buffer for a heavier one, and I imagine if people who DO swap out buffers were to get adjustable gas systems first, they may not need to.

Also, with any suppressed gun, rifle or pistol, QUALITY AMMO is a key. I can tell the difference in crappy Tulammo through my G19 compared to my cleaner handloads in how it functions and the amount of blowback in my face. If you don't make a habit of eyepro before, a suppressed handgun will make you a user.



Basically what are the things to look for if I were to purchase something?

What do you want out of the suppressor? Do you want to suppress a .22? A 9mm? A half dozen 5.56 guns? All these questions make a difference. If you want to run it on a single AR and never move it versus having six ARs and one suppressor, that will determine if you would benefit from a thread on or taper mount can versus a quick attach suppressor.



But for now which kind of suppressor works better? Which style do you like better and why? Are stacked baffles easier to get baffle strikes vs say the one piece design?

Typically with sealed centerfire rifle cans, you'll have baffles, either single piece or a solid billet core, pushed into and welded inside an exterior tube. Most 9mm/.45 cans have stackable K-Baffles, some are serviceable, some are not. The serviceable baffle stacks have very detailed instructions on how they are supposed to be aligned and reassembled for gas flow, fit, and function. I know my Innovative Arms 9mm can is sealed, but IA is now making serviceable pistol cans, so I am going to take my 9mm suppressor back to Innovative Arms (I live close by) and they will upgrade the core for me (WOO HOO!). I got it a few years ago and serviceable pistol cans (not .22lr) were just sort of becoming a "thing". My .22 can is a monocore and I like it because I don't have to worry about getting 6-8 baffles unstuck from the inside of the can if I shoot a couple thousand dirty .22 rounds through it:
Innovative Arms .22lr
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/Apex2_zps617f69ef.jpg



Does barrel length effect anything significant in relation the performance of the suppressor?

Using an AR15 as an example: The shorter the barrel, the harder it will be for the suppressor to be effective on muffling the muzzle blast. A 7.5"-10" AR will be MUCH quieter with a can, but will not sound as good as a 16"-20" AR. One more point to make about barrel length: If you are running a short barrel, I think only one or two cans out there are warrantied on a 7.5" barrel for 5.56. Even 10.5" barrels are very destructive to the inside of a can, which is why people with SBRs typically use BRAKE mounts versus flash hiders, because the brake acts as a sacrificial baffle, and the flame cutting and erosion from unburnt powder will destroy the replaceable muzzle brake before it will eat the inside of the can.

Look at the 21st post in here by WI57. He does a great job of taking pictures of the lifetime of the can and showing what destructive force a short barrel has:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/380898_Show_me_your_well_worn_cans_.html


Of course the mount does matter too... Some fit over a muzzle device, others slide a few inches over the barrel, others screw right on the barrel. Some have a quick detach function and others do not. I understand to some degree but over time I will have to develop a preference for one or the other.

Like I said before, what you want to suppress and what you figure you might buy in the next year or two should play a part in your suppressor choice. If you are building a small, lightweight rifle, a 7.62 suppressor will not be at home on it, but a lighter 5.56 suppressor will. A thread on suppressor will not be the ideal choice if you want to swap it around on 6 different rifles because removing the can from one will leave bare threads on another unless you want to get a linear compensator that doesn't need timing or a crush washer to use when the suppressor is gone. However, if you only have one 5.56 rifle that fits a precision role, a thread on or reflex type of suppressor may be right up your alley. Thread on cans are thought to be more precise than QD cans because some QD mounts don't lock up 100% tight and snug, but the newer models like a SpecWar with their taper mount design are changing those opinions.


Anyway you guys get the picture here... so please share some knowledge and/or experience so that I can (eventually) make a wise choice.

Sometimes these long posts make it really hard to answer all your questions. I know you're trying to learn and I'm not at all telling you to stop, but I'll send you the bill for my optometry vist!!!!


I'll break it down further to help us help you:

What do you want to suppress?

If it's a rifle, what caliber, and do you want the ability to move it quickly from one host to another, or will it primarily stay on one rifle? Is size and weight a concern, or do you want to maximize suppression?

If it's a pistol, what caliber and what host(s)?

Whenever I recommend a suppressor to anyone, I generally leave .22lr cans as a separate category. I feel like no matter what can someone gets, they should ALSO get a .22 suppressor.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 10:45
Alamo, Take a breather before you confuse yourself. You need to figure out WHAT you want to suppress before you figure out which baffle stack you like the best; indivdual K baffle stacks vs monocores (not "The one piece" lol) I'm going to take a second and dissect your first post. I'll edit my answers back in here when I'm done.

I'm a blank slate. Not showing preference for one or the other. Asking so I can learn.

UWone77
10 December 2014, 10:46
I'm a blank slate. Not showing preference for one or the other. Asking so I can learn.

I think the question is, what type of gun are you suppressing and/or what caliber do you plan to suppress. You pictured a .22 suppressor. Is a .22lr can what you're looking to get first?

Former11B
10 December 2014, 11:07
I think the question is, what type of gun are you suppressing and/or what caliber do you plan to suppress. You pictured a .22 suppressor. Is a .22lr can what you're looking to get first?

Exactly.

I edited my first post with a more detailed response to hopefully clear up my earlier remark.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 11:15
If I posted a pic of a 22LR suppressor it shows how much I know about suppressors. Which is zip Nada. Nothing.

Initially if I suppress anything it will be an AR 15. 5.56

Former11B
10 December 2014, 12:07
If I posted a pic of a 22LR suppressor it shows how much I know about suppressors. Which is zip Nada. Nothing.

Initially if I suppress anything it will be an AR 15. 5.56

Alright so from my big post:

it's a rifle, what caliber, and do you want the ability to move it quickly from one host to another, or will it primarily stay on one rifle? Is size and weight a concern, or do you want to maximize suppression?

You want to suppress a 5.56 rifle. Answer some of those other questions and I can help narrow it down, and not only telling you brand/product options at that point, but WHY I make those conclusions based on characteristics of the host weapon and/or suppressor(s)

Former11B
10 December 2014, 12:24
Also, to further your knowledge and just give you some reading material regarding suppressors and rifles

http://www.silencerresearch.com/sound_suppressors_on_high_powered_rifles.htm

VIPER 237
10 December 2014, 15:31
If I posted a pic of a 22LR suppressor it shows how much I know about suppressors. Which is zip Nada. Nothing.

Initially if I suppress anything it will be an AR 15. 5.56

Former11B hit on most of the points, i'll just add a few

First of all stay away from Titanium designs, while they may be slightly lighter and less expensive than the Inconel designs, they will not hold up to the heat and will wear much faster on a semi auto, they are also louder and they throw sparks. You can reach titanium's failure temperature in a magazine or two if you have a fast trigger.

If you ever plan on suppressing a 308 or 300blk I'd look strongly at a 30 cal can vs a 5.56, sure you do lose a couple DB's in noise reduction but you also gain slightly less back pressure and less risk of a baffle strike. However they are longer and weigh/cost more.

Barrel length effects the efficiency of a can. The shorter the barrel, the louder it is, and the more erosion and wear you will have. 11.5" suppressed is about the shortest i'll go and have it somewhat hearing safe. On barrel shorter than that the suppressor acts like a concussion reducer more than a sound suppressor, those are just loud no matter what. There are also Mini/K styles out there that are great on 14.5" and longer, but they don't do very well on shorter barrels.

Stay with good companies that will support their products. I prefer Griffin Armament over anything else, with Silencerco a close second. Both have amazing customer service and they are IMO the leaders in the industry right now. Surefire and KAC are incredible cans but the asking price IMO isn't worth it.

If I had to choose one .30cal can to do anything, it would be the Griffin Armament Recce 7. Their Recce 5 which is the 5.56 version is also one of the best options out there. The Silencerco Saker is a great choice as well, but it is heavier than the Recce series.

If you want to get funky and try something away from the standard design, look at OSS suppressors. They have almost completely eliminated backpressure and blowback. Down side is a heavy and expensive unit.

Thompson
10 December 2014, 17:05
First of all stay away from Titanium designs, while they may be slightly lighter and less expensive than the Inconel designs, they will not hold up to the heat and will wear much faster on a semi auto, they are also louder and they throw sparks. You can reach titanium's failure temperature in a magazine or two if you have a fast trigger.
What about for .22 cans? I'm looking into them for use on a dedicated .22 upper. From what I've seen, a lot of .22 cans are of a titanium construction.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 18:17
Sometimes these long posts make it really hard to answer all your questions. I know you're trying to learn and I'm not at all telling you to stop, but I'll send you the bill for my optometry vist!!!!

LOL

Your post was quite informative. Thank you! I will buy you a steak dinner and we can call it even? Deal? LOL

I will go over your and others posts in more detail as I get more time. I am not trying to learn everything in a single day... I view it as a process.

What I don't want to do is ignorantly go out and buy something. In the mean time I can window shop and do my tactical oogling of the products offered to "over time" come to a somewhat educated conclusion.

cagekicker204
10 December 2014, 19:52
Try and find a dealer to let you try them before you buy it helps because the whole decibel thing can be confusing but to hear them in person is probably the best comparison. I could hardly tell the difference between the AAC 762-SDN-6 and M4 - 2000 in sound on the dealers 5.56 Sbr, just the weight and length really, but I do have a touch of hearing loss. I would love to tell you that the AAC 762-SDN-6 is the way to go but I am still waiting for the Form 4. I picked it because I wanted to do multiple rifles and calibers but wanted to maintain my marriage lol.

Former11B
10 December 2014, 21:42
Stay with good companies that will support their products. I prefer Griffin Armament over anything else, with Silencerco a close second. Both have amazing customer service and they are IMO the leaders in the industry right now. Surefire and KAC are incredible cans but the asking price IMO isn't worth it.

If I had to choose one .30cal can to do anything, it would be the Griffin Armament Recce 7. Their Recce 5 which is the 5.56 version is also one of the best options out there. The Silencerco Saker is a great choice as well, but it is heavier than the Recce series.

If you want to get funky and try something away from the standard design, look at OSS suppressors. They have almost completely eliminated backpressure and blowback. Down side is a heavy and expensive unit.

While I dont own anything made by Griffin, I can attest to their quality as well as the effectiveness of their design. The Recce 5 and 7 cans use a taper mount, which I have on my Innovative Arms suppressor:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/image_zps6c7f87f6.jpg

Basically, as an alternative to a direct barrel thread to suppressor design, the taper mount holds the suppressor on with a series of coarse threads and then the sloped "tapered" surface on the mount mates to a similar surface in the suppressor, forming a tight, locked into place gas seal. The SilencerCo SpecWar uses a similar taper design to the a Innovative mount, including the fine tooth ring with the locking gate on the can that hook onto corresponding teeth on the mount to prevent rotational movement, unthreading, or wobble. In my picture, the Innovative Arms mount uses a gate that has about ten or so teeth and it swings into place on the can. The SpecWar used a rotating collar that lowers teeth in a similar fashion to teeth on the can.

The locking teeth on both are really a back up measure for comfort....I know mine locks up super tight with just the taper mount and coarse threads. This is why I wouldn't hesitate to get a Recce 5 or 7 with just the brake mounted taper/threads. I like this mounting system better than direct threading for use of one can on multiple rifles because you can swap the cans back and forth without leaving exposed barrel threads.

I agree completely about the SF and KAC cans. Great performance (although the suppression from the SF isn't too super...SilencerShop send their first SOCOM batch back because the dB level was so high they thought it was defective lol)

The OSS cans are definitely unique but I can't see paying that much for a can...I'd just get a Surefire can if I wanted low back pressure. The OSS muzzle device looks like something that is costly to damage:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps63a56ed5.jpg

I also think if the OP only has a 5.56 and doesn't plan on any other (larger) calibers for the forseeable future, he should stick with a 5.56 can due to length and weight savings. Just my .02 in that regard.

Thompson: As far as titanium goes, if you want a lightweight .22 suppressor, just go with aluminum. Aluminum .22 cans weigh about three ounces, they don't spark, and really aren't hard to clean.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 22:19
I also think if the OP only has a 5.56 and doesn't plan on any other (larger) calibers for the forseeable future, he should stick with a 5.56 can due to length and weight savings. Just my .02 in that regard.


In a perfect world, once I get out and about more I will build more rifles. I definitely have my eyes on a .308 build. For now it's 5.56. I also have several pistols that I would like to suppress too but I am trying to keep it simple.

As for that mount....or how the suppressor will mount to the rifle.... Personally I think I will be happier with a very tight fitting mount like the one pictured. I don't like having exposed threads and to be honest over time I am not sure of hanging (even some) weight off the end of a barrel would lead to wobble or messing up threads. For me, I like beefy. Beefy mounts that don't move. Within reason I am not that concerned with weight.

Even if I could have a suppressor on everything (lots of $$$) I still would opt for the beefier sturdier mount. In my personal hierarchy of wants I value accuracy. I don't want to give up accuracy for suppression. I am not running courses or doing any kind of operational military or LEO stuff so weight is lesser of an issue for me.

Right now I am in a 'decent' financial situation so long as I don't blow everything on guns and ammo LOL. I am hoping that going forward things will be good enough to where I can drop a few more grand on 'options' and not worry too much. I would rather drive an old car and have some awesome other stuff... I am not really that into cars...they don't provide near the enjoyment as other things do (for me)...

But that all said, I like quality stuff. I am sure there are probably 20 different ones that I could buy and be fine with any of them. But for right now my scope is limited but looking forward... I am 'starting' with the AR...depending... who knows...

The whole thing about registering and all that bothers me though. (Being honest). I think those laws are stupid. There is no logic in forcing people to pay $200 and to keep a file on them for these. It's not even really the $200. I will still follow the laws as they are and once I am ready I will jump on it. One of my reasons for having or wanting a suppressor is more or less to be polite to the neighbors. I will be able to participate in shooting a lot more frequently if I can tone it down some volume wise. Even though I do live in the country I still have neighbors. To me it's just being considerate... aside from that I just like it.

So I will learn my options and come up with something that I like...and then go for it.

alamo5000
10 December 2014, 22:28
So far maybe I need to make a list:

1. Caliber to suppress
2. The mounting system
3. The type of baffles/suppression system
4. Other considerations (Say a multi use multi caliber suppressor) or any other special considerations...

And go bit by bit in that order and look at what is being offered.

gatordev
11 December 2014, 05:43
I'd also come up with what your priorities are and what you want out of it.

-dB reduction
-minimal POI shift
-weight
-etc

That can also help you get pointed to specific manufactures and their specific systems.

alamo5000
11 December 2014, 19:08
Let me marinate on the information provided thus far...and later on I will revisit this thread.

One thing that might be helpful is for us to create a list of REPUTABLE suppressor manufacturers. Companies that are just known to be good... and over time I can go to their websites and research out what's currently out there. I can window shop for free.

Former11B
11 December 2014, 20:34
Red Jacket







Sorry couldn't help it.

In no particular order and not all-inclusive:
SilencerCo
Griffin Armament
Innovative Arms
Allen Engineering (formerly Ops Inc)
GemTech
AAC
SureFire
Knights Armament Corp.
Suppressed Armament Systems
Thunder Beast

Also:
YHM/Yankee Hill Machine

alamo5000
11 December 2014, 20:38
Red Jacket

Somebody ought to kick you in the marbles for that one :) LOL j/k!!

Gaspipeshooter
12 December 2014, 02:46
Red Jacket







Sorry couldn't help it.

In no particular order and not all-inclusive:
SilencerCo
Griffin Armament
Innovative Arms
Allen Engineering (formerly Ops Inc)
GemTech
AAC
SureFire
Knights Armament Corp.
Suppressed Armament Systems
Thunder Beast

What about YHM???

Former11B
12 December 2014, 06:22
^^. Yep, that's a good one for the list. I'm sure I left out some other larger name companies

Ordnance
12 December 2014, 10:46
Since I know a couple boutique shops that make really nice suppressors but don't get talked about unless you're in certain circles...

Mack Brothers
Templar Tactical

alamo5000
4 January 2015, 16:05
OK I have been looking online and occasionally reading up on suppression. Kind of restating my previous comment...I normally try to learn as much as I can about something (especially something like this that requires all the bull$h%% to go get)...

My first follow up question is specifically about 5.56/.223 suppression.

First thing is I do not quite understand 'how' decibels work... so if I see something that says "minus 25 decibels" (I just made that number up as an example)... but I am not quite sure how to judge which ones are actually better at suppression for this caliber but obviously the more Db reduction the better. I think an unsuppressed 5.56 round is at about 160 decibels... so if its my imaginary 'minus 25 Db' that would make it 135 Db...but I don't know how to quantify that in what I would 'really hear' ... I just need to go shoot a suppressed 5.56 or hear someone shooting it to know if that's the route I want to go or not.

Next question... supersonic crack... lets take out the gun and all other variables for a moment... what would the Db level be for a 5.56 supersonic crack? Say for a minute we could completely eliminate all other sound, how many Db would that 'crack' be? Whatever that magical number is it just seems to me that trying to suppress beyond that is sort of futile or more or less a waste of effort... am I wrong in thinking this way?

I have a few other questions but I am trying to not pile everything on in one response.

My goal is to be able to shoot without ear muffs on...and to basically not wake up the neighbors with my sonic 'cracks'... so if I go blasting away or even shooting at night I want to have that option. Don't get me wrong... I have plenty of space to shoot, but among other considerations I am trying to be considerate of others.

I am thinking that if I really want to go suppressed I should probably go with a .300 BO and aim to suppress that...and then buy or reload subsonic loads. It seems to me that is the most overall quiet rifle round out there...but this leads me to ask why I just can't reload subsonic .223 for some plinking rounds? Has anyone else done this and does the rifle have any issues cycling or functioning if that were to be done?

OK I really will stop now because I don't want to overload with 900 questions at once.

alamo5000
4 January 2015, 16:17
ok I can't resist... I did read a lot believe it or not... but what causes POI shift when using a suppressor? This of course is high on the priority list as well. I want minimal POI shift... but please note I will rarely if ever shoot it beyond 200 yards...

As of right now I think what I initially thought I wanted (5.56) and what I might end up with are two different things. (Possibly a good thing... shows that I am learning)...

I might end up with some sort of hog gun.... that seems to me to be more along the lines of what it would take to satisfy me :) .300 BO...subsonic with minimal POI shift at 100 -200 yard range and inward.

I think I could achieve the whisper quiet 'let's not wake up the neighbors' criteria if I go that route.

Former11B
4 January 2015, 23:13
Since I know a couple boutique shops that make really nice suppressors but don't get talked about unless you're in certain circles...

Mack Brothers
Templar Tactical

Mack Brothers look nice and the few people I've heard who own their cans love them. Nothing on Templar on the big forums except "with all the great choices (AAC, SiCo, SureFire) why buy a company that may not be around in a few years?"

UWone77
4 January 2015, 23:34
OK I have been looking online and occasionally reading up on suppression. Kind of restating my previous comment...I normally try to learn as much as I can about something (especially something like this that requires all the bull$h%% to go get)...

My first follow up question is specifically about 5.56/.223 suppression.

First thing is I do not quite understand 'how' decibels work... so if I see something that says "minus 25 decibels" (I just made that number up as an example)... but I am not quite sure how to judge which ones are actually better at suppression for this caliber but obviously the more Db reduction the better. I think an unsuppressed 5.56 round is at about 160 decibels... so if its my imaginary 'minus 25 Db' that would make it 135 Db...but I don't know how to quantify that in what I would 'really hear' ... I just need to go shoot a suppressed 5.56 or hear someone shooting it to know if that's the route I want to go or not.

Next question... supersonic crack... lets take out the gun and all other variables for a moment... what would the Db level be for a 5.56 supersonic crack? Say for a minute we could completely eliminate all other sound, how many Db would that 'crack' be? Whatever that magical number is it just seems to me that trying to suppress beyond that is sort of futile or more or less a waste of effort... am I wrong in thinking this way?

I have a few other questions but I am trying to not pile everything on in one response.

My goal is to be able to shoot without ear muffs on...and to basically not wake up the neighbors with my sonic 'cracks'... so if I go blasting away or even shooting at night I want to have that option. Don't get me wrong... I have plenty of space to shoot, but among other considerations I am trying to be considerate of others.

I am thinking that if I really want to go suppressed I should probably go with a .300 BO and aim to suppress that...and then buy or reload subsonic loads. It seems to me that is the most overall quiet rifle round out there...but this leads me to ask why I just can't reload subsonic .223 for some plinking rounds? Has anyone else done this and does the rifle have any issues cycling or functioning if that were to be done?

OK I really will stop now because I don't want to overload with 900 questions at once.

Subsonic 5.56 won't cycle.

I find that 5.56 is still loud, so using a suppressor is mainly for cutting down on flash and concussion. I still wear ear-pro shooting suppressed 5.56, as hearing damage is cumulative. I don't know what the Db levels are for the crack of a 5.56 projectile, but it's certainly quieter than the initial blast down the barrel. It also depends how far your target it. If you're shooting say, 25 yards and in, into a berm on a pistol range, that crack will certainly be less noticeable as the bullet has already hit the hillside.

Former11B
5 January 2015, 00:43
ok I can't resist... I did read a lot believe it or not... but what causes POI shift when using a suppressor? This of course is high on the priority list as well. I want minimal POI shift... but please note I will rarely if ever shoot it beyond 200 yards...

As of right now I think what I initially thought I wanted (5.56) and what I might end up with are two different things. (Possibly a good thing... shows that I am learning)...

I might end up with some sort of hog gun.... that seems to me to be more along the lines of what it would take to satisfy me :) .300 BO...subsonic with minimal POI shift at 100 -200 yard range and inward.

I think I could achieve the whisper quiet 'let's not wake up the neighbors' criteria if I go that route.

With no suppressor, the barrel is free to react how it "wants" due to Physics when fired, as are the gasses in front of/around the Bullet in the barrel and just beyond the muzzle. POI shift is caused by two things: a change in barrel harmonics and a change in how the gases interact with the boolit as it exits the muzzle, now into a much smaller "environment".

The intensity or dB level of an object making/producing no noise (bullet in flight) definitely depends on the size of the object. The Space Shuttle gliding in the atmosphere with no engines whatsoever is deafeningly loud (just an example), but a bullet is somewhere around 140ish dB. The key between the crack of a bullet and the muzzle blast of a rifle is that the suppressor eliminates most of the rifle's noise except for the action and what escapes it, leaving the supersonic crack.....which, at that point, is omnidirectional. I had a great read on this saved somewhere...I'll find it tomorrow hopefully

Here is some more reading by Dr Phillip Dater (suppressor guru for decades):
Sound of Silence series:

Pt1:
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=29

Pt2 (all about decibels)
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=325

Pt3:
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=456

Pt4:
http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=573


Trying to answer some of your other questions from the first post:
Modifying a 5.56 semi auto to fire subsonics would take a considerable amount of custom work and then probably limit you to subs only; so very very impractical. For these reasons, either a bolt action rifle is preferred OR a different caliber like 300BLK or a 9mm AR.

Which leads me to this question: since you just want something quiet to shoot, ever thought about a suppressed 9mm AR with 5-7" barrel? With that, you could switch between supersonics and the subsonic bulets won't be nearly as expensive (Georgia Arms 147gr are great prices, but 158gr Fiocchi 9mm is THE best factory 9mm sub I've used) and you can easily punch paper out to 150yds. 200yds is definitely within range but will have some bullet drop.

alamo5000
5 January 2015, 04:04
Which leads me to this question: since you just want something quiet to shoot, ever thought about a suppressed 9mm AR with 5-7" barrel? With that, you could switch between supersonics and the subsonic bulets won't be nearly as expensive (Georgia Arms 147gr are great prices, but 158gr Fiocchi 9mm is THE best factory 9mm sub I've used) and you can easily punch paper out to 150yds. 200yds is definitely within range but will have some bullet drop.

Yes, I have thought about it... and all options are on the table and in fact shooting with 9mm would be a great idea. I don't know which options are on the table to get something like that together though. I definitely want to explore that option on a number of levels....I would love a little carbine that has a lot of pew that shoots 9mm :) I had the chance to play with an MP5 (and the MP40) and those were fantastic. They were suppressed and they were fantastic, but I don't have that kind of scratch.

Do they make kits to convert an AR to 9mm?

I have also seen a CZ Scorpion which looks pretty awesome.

The long story short of it I am not sure of my options for a pistol round rifle to either buy or build. That (I think) is most definitely worth the look on how to get there.

A friend of mine has a Berretta that shoots 9mm... but what else is there or are there kits to build AR uppers for 9mm? Exploring pistol round rifle options is high on the list as of right now. It's cheaper to shoot and quieter.

Former11B
5 January 2015, 09:41
PSA is coming out with some AR-9 stuff on their website, and Rock River Arms has some prebuilt 9mm offerings. Basically with the 9mm ARs, you can get a Glock mag lower (takes G17/19/ and 33rd mags) OR a Colt mag-type lower that takes the metal Colt stick mags. If you own some Glock 9's it might make sense to get the Glock lower...but they're usually harder to find. If you look at ADCO's site they might still sell uppers and lowers seperately so you can build one easily.

There are some differences with the 9mm bolts: some allow direct swap in with a prebuilt 5.56 AR lower (provided you install a mag block) but others require 9mm specific hammers....that's where I am at my limit on know-how. I backed out of the 9mm AR game for now because with what I wanted, it was going to be very expensive and I want to do other stuff first

Colt and Bushmaster have both made 9mm ARs....and you might be able to find a DDLES Glock mag lower on Armslist or GB at a price.

Another option IF you can find one, is

Diazm50
13 January 2015, 12:58
I was wondering if I was to build a 14.5" ar15 and had to pick one muzzle device that I could attach a suppressor to later on down the road, what would be my best bet. Thanks in advance.

alamo5000
13 January 2015, 16:54
I was wondering if I was to build a 14.5" ar15 and had to pick one muzzle device that I could attach a suppressor to later on down the road, what would be my best bet. Thanks in advance.

I am obviously no suppressor expert but in my reading and researching on things I might want to get... I would wait on the muzzle device as there are many and most are proprietary to a particular suppressor, or at very least could be.

The whole section above (by someone else) about mounts is very valuable information. There are suppressors that just screw right on the end of your barrel... and then there are those that use a muzzle device and so on and so forth...

But from what little I know and can tell those muzzle devices that serve as suppressor mounts are not generic in nature or design... so unless you already know which suppressor you want... then hold of on that.

But what do I know? I am the FNG who knows very little about suppression... but I am reading a lot trying to get up to speed.

tact
15 January 2015, 04:21
Some like silencerco offer different mounts you can swap on the suppressor itself that allow use on a few different muzzle devices...... AAC, YHM, Specwar , and Silencerco mounts can all run Silencerco cans.

Diazm50
15 January 2015, 04:37
I am obviously no suppressor expert but in my reading and researching on things I might want to get... I would wait on the muzzle device as there are many and most are proprietary to a particular suppressor, or at very least could be.

The whole section above (by someone else) about mounts is very valuable information. There are suppressors that just screw right on the end of your barrel... and then there are those that use a muzzle device and so on and so forth...

But from what little I know and can tell those muzzle devices that serve as suppressor mounts are not generic in nature or design... so unless you already know which suppressor you want... then hold of on that.

But what do I know? I am the FNG who knows very little about suppression... but I am reading a lot trying to get up to speed.
I know there's proprietary interfaces for certain manufacturers. The problem is going to be when I get this rifle built there will be no waiting to put a muzzle device on it. I'm not trying to build an SBR so it's getting pin and welded on. So really what I'm looking for is a good muzzle device that has the ability to thread a suppressor to that.