1-4x or magnifier?

[Pyzik]

So now that I've got this pistol (almost) completed I am looking at just tossing the PA micro onto it and upgrading my carbine to something with some magnification.

I've been looking at the PA 1-4x vs adding a magnifier to a red dot.

Just looking for some opinions and experience of some of you.

[UWone77]

Definitely go 1-4. Magnifiers as far as I'm concerned all pretty much suck, and usually cost a lot.

[alamo5000]

My experience with magnifiers has been very mixed as well. I'm no expert but I can spot a piece of #### in no time.

[Pyzik]

That's what I've been reading as far as magnafiers as well as heavy.

[GOST]

So far I've only used a magnifier to assist with zeroing a red dot.

[Ride4frnt]

PA 1-6 if you can find one

Eta: in stock at primary arms and aim surplus. If you have the extra scratch after Christmas, their 1-6 is a worthy upgrade over the 1-4, IMO.

[Pyzik]

PA 1-6 if you can find one
Yeah... I've been watching videos on that one.

I'll have to wait to pick that one up. Though it's the better option. I just hate having to wait.

EDIT: I really don't have the cash right now. :( Maybe if it were to go on a sale that I just couldn't pass up.
My logical side is telling me to just wait and get the 1-6.

[Ride4frnt]

Buy a few scratch offs

[FortTom]

Definitely go 1-4. Magnifiers as far as I'm concerned all pretty much suck, and usually cost a lot.

My sentiments also, even expensive magnifiers. Get everything in one package, and it should be lighter and one less thing to worry about going wrong.

FT

[FortTom]

So far I've only used a magnifier to assist with zeroing a red dot.
Are you sure you're looking through the right end, GOST?[:D][BD]

[Pyzik]

Well, after wasting nearly an entire work day reading and watching videos between the two I now have changed my mind between 1-4x and 1-6x. :D

[CarbonScoring]

Definitely go 1-4. Magnifiers as far as I'm concerned all pretty much suck, and usually cost a lot.

I agree. I didn't like a magnifier at all. I bought my Accutron 1-4 and I couldn't be happier.

If quickly changing from 1-4x is a concern, look at the MGM Switchview (http://www.mgmswitchview.com/).

[voodoo_man]

Totally depends on what you are looking to do.

Id go with a good 1-4x.

[alamo5000]

I will throw this into the mix... I currently have a relatively inexpensive ($200 something bucks) 1-4x on my 16" AR.... If I really try I can keep it within an inch at 100 yards with that optic with off the shelf ammo. I have no doubt I could hit a lot farther out given the chance. I will find a longer place to shoot soon and give it a go. That said, from your initial post you said you are building a pistol.

My question would be, are you really going to try and shoot beyond 100 yards with that set up? Are you really going to try and go for groups? I personally am tempted to get more magnification on my next optic merely because I like the whole precision shooting thing. But with a pistol if you are going to be engaging within 100 yards or less 1-4X is plenty, especially if you are not trying to get dime sized groups. If your targets are 18" or so then 1-4 is a great choice and anything more, while nice, is overkill if you ask me.

If your goal is to have a blaster of some sort where precision accuracy isn't really 'as important' then I would save my money and stick with the 1-4x. But that's just my opinion not knowing what your setup is and what your goal is for shooting or what you will be shooting at.

http://www.bushnell.com/tactical/rifle-scopes/ar-optics/1-4x-24mm-throw-down-pcl

That is what I use on my AR and the design of it is quite interesting for a tactical setup if you ask me. It's a first focal plane so on the low end its a red dot (or acts like one).... and on the high end you have the reticle as shown in the link. The inside edge of that horse shoe covers 18" at 100 yards....great for fast acquisition.

[Ride4frnt]

I will throw this into the mix... I currently have a relatively inexpensive ($200 something bucks) 1-4x on my 16" AR.... If I really try I can keep it within an inch at 100 yards with that optic with off the shelf ammo. I have no doubt I could hit a lot farther out given the chance. I will find a longer place to shoot soon and give it a go. That said, from your initial post you said you are building a pistol.

My question would be, are you really going to try and shoot beyond 100 yards with that set up? Are you really going to try and go for groups? I personally am tempted to get more magnification on my next optic merely because I like the whole precision shooting thing. But with a pistol if you are going to be engaging within 100 yards or less 1-4X is plenty, especially if you are not trying to get dime sized groups. If your targets are 18" or so then 1-4 is a great choice and anything more, while nice, is overkill if you ask me.

If your goal is to have a blaster of some sort where precision accuracy isn't really 'as important' then I would save my money and stick with the 1-4x. But that's just my opinion not knowing what your setup is and what your goal is for shooting or what you will be shooting at.

http://www.bushnell.com/tactical/rifle-scopes/ar-optics/1-4x-24mm-throw-down-pcl

That is what I use on my AR and the design of it is quite interesting for a tactical setup if you ask me. It's a first focal plane so on the low end its a red dot (or acts like one).... and on the high end you have the reticle as shown in the link. The inside edge of that horse shoe covers 18" at 100 yards....great for fast acquisition.

He's putting the red dot off his carbine on the pistol and the scope on the carbine.

[alamo5000]

He's putting the red dot off his carbine on the pistol and the scope on the carbine.

Ah so.

Duhh. Kick me in the arse for not reading enough :) LOL

Well in that case it still depends on how accurate is accurate enough and at what ranges we're talking about. With that 1-4 I would be confident to score x ring shots out to 200 yards...beyond that I think I could easily hit with it but I would prefer more than 4x.

As I said, that one optic is on my my 16" AR now and it's been rather interesting to learn about it as I go.

[Pyzik]

I would say that 200 yards would be my max. That's the longest distance around here (other than a 600) that I can shoot anyway. But really most of my shooting is done between 25 and 100.

[CarbonScoring]

Just to throw this out there, since it may help in your decision making process....

My Accupoint is the only variable optic I've used. One thing that drew me to it, as apposed to the Vortex and Leupold offerings I was also looking at, is that is has a very bright center triangle. I do most of my shooting within 50 yards, so being able to use it like a red dot close in was high on my list. Since you may be in the same boat, you may want to look at how bright certain illuminated scopes are, and how close to 1x they are. Some illuminated scopes aren't very bright, and the illumination is almost pointless. As for the true 1x, you won't get the same true 1x out of most (if any) scopes that you do an Aimpoint, but some are closer to 1x than others. This is also something that bothers some people more than others. Best to check out the scope in person if you can.

[Uffdaphil]

Is this for a fun gun or defense? If the former I would love to try the PA 1-6. For the latter I would save up for a Vortex 1-4 at the minimum. The triangle TR24 is my preference if sole variable for Carbon's reasons. I've had amber, red and green reticles and all are good. Just kept red for personal preference.

[UWone77]

I like the 1-4 vs 1-6. I feel like the 1-6 is trying to do too many things. For 99.99% of my shooting, a 1-4 fills my needs.

What's the budget?

[voodoo_man]

I should write an article on magnification and implementation...

[Pyzik]

I like the 1-4 vs 1-6. I feel like the 1-6 is trying to do too many things. For 99.99% of my shooting, a 1-4 fills my needs.

What's the budget?
Right now it's low. $250. If I wait a bit I could push it to $500... Unfortunately something really nice just isn't in the cards for me. I could always save up and get a Trijicon but I can't even justify the price to myself. I just don't shoot *that much though I love it if I did. And being realistic, a carbine isn't a "go to" gun for me. It's gonna be my M&P9.



I should write an article on magnification and implementation...
Do eeet.

[alamo5000]

Golden question asked by Uwone;)

Its just my opinion but for 200 yards and in 1-4 is plenty. That's what I've been using. For any kind of self defense or tactical shooting its good. If you want to stack shots in a precision rig then more is better. But if you are shooting at bigger targets and aren't as concerned with quarter sized groups at distance then stick with 1-4.

That's what I've found by using mine.

[alamo5000]

Right now it's low. $250. If I wait a it I could push it to $500...

Check out the link I put up to the bushnell. I've been reasonably impressed for the price. I went pretty cheap on my optic too until I can afford more but so far I like it.

[voodoo_man]

An optic should not be "maxed out" in order for its intended use. If I am looking to actively engage a contact at 100y, a 1-4x would do well since I can discriminate very well. At 200y it starts to be an issue at 300y forget it, you probably been a 1-6 or 1-8x.

[gatordev]

An optic should not be "maxed out" in order for its intended use. If I am looking to actively engage a contact at 100y, a 1-4x would do well since I can discriminate very well. At 200y it starts to be an issue at 300y forget it, you probably been a 1-6 or 1-8x.

Wouldn't you also agree that it depends on WHAT you're actively engaging, as well? If just ringing steel, then 4x works just fine. If you're trying for something living, be it human or otherwise, then more can certainly be better.

I'd also argue it depends on HOW you're shooting. From a bench/prone stable position makes more mag the bestest thing in the world. But if you're shooting from an unconventional position (sling, crouch, barricade-type like a tree or car, etc), then I find much more than 5 or 6x starts to get really wobbly at 300-400. And 4x is almost too much at 200.

[voodoo_man]

Wouldn't you also agree that it depends on WHAT you're actively engaging, as well? If just ringing steel, then 4x works just fine. If you're trying for something living, be it human or otherwise, then more can certainly be better.

I'd also argue it depends on HOW you're shooting. From a bench/prone stable position makes more mag the bestest thing in the world. But if you're shooting from an unconventional position (sling, crouch, barricade-type like a tree or car, etc), then I find much more than 5 or 6x starts to get really wobbly at 300-400. And 4x is almost too much at 200.

I should preface anything I post about shooting with the concept that I only have firearms, optics and do all this training to shoot people. I do not train, build rifles or carry pistols to shoot paper, steel, etc.

With that, positional shooting is very important, primarily because most people do not really understand it. An instructor once said "the first thing I think of when seeing a target is, can I hit him prone?" Depending on your AO you may not be able to use a certain position, or you may completely rely on a specific position for accurate shooting.

Most, if not all shooting I do is from a standing, kneeling, prone position. I do some vehicle/barricade based shooting but its not exactly that important, likely reloading and riding a bike - you do it until you have a feel for it and move on to more important things.

What is the most important logic consideration when shooting at someone at distance? Discrimination. Who is it? Friendly? Foe? 10yr old holding a plastic AK? If you are limited by your optic and you do not have the ability to discriminate you do not shoot. Unless of course you are being shot up on.

I can write a PHD thesis on optics and implantation in various circumstances, there is more to it than the simple concepts I posted above.

btw - post was not meant as a dis or bash, just posting my thoughts on the matter.

[Pyzik]

I should preface anything I post about shooting with the concept that I only have firearms, optics and do all this training to shoot people. I do not train, build rifles or carry pistols to shoot paper, steel, etc.

With that, positional shooting is very important, primarily because most people do not really understand it. An instructor once said "the first thing I think of when seeing a target is, can I hit him prone?" Depending on your AO you may not be able to use a certain position, or you may completely rely on a specific position for accurate shooting.

Most, if not all shooting I do is from a standing, kneeling, prone position. I do some vehicle/barricade based shooting but its not exactly that important, likely reloading and riding a bike - you do it until you have a feel for it and move on to more important things.

What is the most important logic consideration when shooting at someone at distance? Discrimination. Who is it? Friendly? Foe? 10yr old holding a plastic AK? If you are limited by your optic and you do not have the ability to discriminate you do not shoot. Unless of course you are being shot up on.

I can write a PHD thesis on optics and implantation in various circumstances, there is more to it than the simple concepts I posted above.

btw - post was not meant as a dis or bash, just posting my thoughts on the matter.

I don't think you come across as dissing or bashing. You're out there doing actual "gun work" (thank you). I even admitted here, it's EXTREMELY unlikely I'll ever point my carbine at anyone.

Thank you for your insight. The reason I am looking at a 1-4 is "target identification" at around 200 yards. I can hit a target with my RDS at 200, but can I see it? Not really.
I'd love to take a pig one day with my carbine so the scope may be useful for that.

[gatordev]

btw - post was not meant as a dis or bash, just posting my thoughts on the matter.

Not taken that way at all. As you said, you're defining your use, which is why you have your requirements. Mine and/or Pyzik's may be different (mine certainly is and it sounds like his is as well), so I was just putting it out there for the discussion. I appreciate learning points about shooting the bad people just as much as sending the evil steel to its doom. Keep posting your thoughts, please.

Besides, when I need target discrimination, I just turn the DTV/FLIR turret towards the target and zoom in to ridiculous levels.

[FortTom]

I should write an article on magnification and implementation...

Do it, Voodoo..... should be interesting.

FT

[GOST]

The Primary Arms 1-6x is back in stock.

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_1_6X_Scope_with_Patented_ACSS_Reticle _p/paps1-6x.htm

[Pyzik]

Mueller 1-4x30 Fast Shot is on sale right now at Dvor. It looks like it would act most like a red dot with zoom.

Just now sure how much I want a 4moa dot.

[voodoo_man]

Do it, Voodoo..... should be interesting.

FT


I'll consider it. I have a SR4c coming my way and will have time to do some work with the SR8c and the SWFA 1-4x SS tactical optic I picked up for black friday.

So maybe i'll get some pictures in next month or two and do a write up on concepts.

[gatordev]

...and the SWFA 1-4x SS tactical optic I picked up for black friday.


I'm VERY interested to hear about this one. That and the 1-6x they have. I'm torn between the 1-4, 1-6, or just getting another used TA-01 NSN for a mostly plinking rifle. The 1-6 is on the outside of what I'd like to spend, but the 1-4 and the ACOG are about inline with each other.

[tact]

I'll consider it. I have a SR4c coming my way and will have time to do some work with the SR8c and the SWFA 1-4x SS tactical optic I picked up for black friday.

So maybe i'll get some pictures in next month or two and do a write up on concepts.

I picked up an SR6 on a killer deal....my first US Optics and it has ruined me.

[voodoo_man]

I picked up an SR6 on a killer deal....my first US Optics and it has ruined me.


They are seriously awesome optics. Once you get one in your hands its really difficult to look at anything else.

[Pyzik]

Does anyone have good or bad to to say about this Mueller Speed Shot?

Seems like a pretty decent deal at $180. Most like a red dot with variable zoom.

4moa though seems large.

[voodoo_man]

Does anyone have good or bad to to say about this Mueller Speed Shot?

Seems like a pretty decent deal at $180. Most like a red dot with variable zoom.

4moa though seems large.

For a 1-4x 4MOA is unacceptable in my opinion.

[Pyzik]

For a 1-4x 4MOA is unacceptable in my opinion.
Yeah... I was thinking it was pretty large. Gonna pass.

Thanks.

[mustangfreek]

I cant really tell ya which way to go, as im in the same boat, and myself want to try a micro for my pistol.

Anyways, a cheap "on sale " option is this bushnell AR 1-4 scope, i happened to look thru one at cabelas and it had decent glass, and the reticle was decent for a shooter.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-ar91424.html

Or even a little better deal if you buy a mount with it, it has the burris QD mount with the same scope for $189 and a $20 rebate...just something for you to ponder..id say if you had somewhere local you could go look thru the glass first, so you know what your getting

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-and-burris-pepr-mount-2.html

[Pyzik]

I cant really tell ya which way to go, as im in the same boat, and myself want to try a micro for my pistol.

Anyways, a cheap "on sale " option is this bushnell AR 1-4 scope, i happened to look thru one at cabelas and it had decent glass, and the reticle was decent for a shooter.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-ar91424.html

Or even a little better deal if you buy a mount with it, it has the burris QD mount with the same scope for $189 and a $20 rebate...just something for you to ponder..id say if you had somewhere local you could go look thru the glass first, so you know what your getting

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-and-burris-pepr-mount-2.html
That scope has been in the list too. Same as their illuminated model. I was thinking I wanted illumination. But that's a pretty good deal...

[JHoward]

I can't wait to see what you go with. I have really been considering going to a scope over an RDS/magnifier combo.

[Pyzik]

I think I am going with the Bushnell PCL illuminated 1-4

[alamo5000]

I think I am going with the Bushnell PCL illuminated 1-4

This is the one I use and thus far I am pleased for the most part. There are downsides to it but for the price its a good deal.

The only downside I see is that the turrets are not truly secured. They have just a slight bit of play in them. They are not tight like on some higher end optics. Other than that it's been a good value buy up til this point. Clean and clear and solid...no malfunctions and a very interesting design for a tactical type optic.

Watch this... it goes over it in detail and is quite a thorough review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQrgECpKRE

[Pyzik]

This is the one I use and thus far I am pleased for the most part. There are downsides to it but for the price its a good deal.

The only downside I see is that the turrets are not truly secured. They have just a slight bit of play in them. They are not tight like on some higher end optics. Other than that it's been a good value buy up til this point. Clean and clear and solid...no malfunctions and a very interesting design for a tactical type optic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkQrgECpKRE
Is that your video?
That was video is what sealed the deal for me. Watched it last night.

[alamo5000]

Is that your video?
That was video is what sealed the deal for me. Watched it last night.

It's not me but I watched it 2-3 times before I decided what to go with. The guy in the video seems professional and very knowledgeable though.

A couple of other things that I have found that make this a neat and effective optic is when you are on 4X the inside ring of the horse shoe covers exactly 18" down range. The second drop compensator... the length of that covers (side to side) 18" at 200 yards. After that I ran out of yard so I couldn't test any further. But I have the ranges marked off and I used an 18" wide target to confirm. VERY good for range finding and quick acquisition. It's pretty much a 3 gun type of optic.

On 1x it's a red dot and I can shoot with both eyes open..... plus I really like the first focal plane thing.

On 4x I can consistently get 1" groups at 100 yards. For 100-200 yards this is a good choice. It is calibrated for use of 55-62 grain ammo. Anything heavier and you might have to alter aim points if you are going way out to several hundred yards or more. But it won't be that far off.

The downside like I said though is the turrets are not rock solid. They have a little bit of play to them. Keeping them secure has been something I wonder about.

I can give further tips to make it easier to site in this particular optic if you want....

[alamo5000]

I spent all my money on my rifle and I kind of planned on... once I build up the wallet again on getting a better optic... I still might do that... but thus far the Bushnell has been great... I have had very few...almost no issues with this optic so far.

I will say this though... it all depends on what you want to accomplish. What are your (shooting) goals? If you are trying to stack shots and be super precise out 100 yards and beyond... there are better options...

BUT if you want an all around tactical type optic and you're ok getting "lead on the target" or are shooting steel or whatever... then this is fine.

[Pyzik]

I spent all my money on my rifle and I kind of planned on... once I build up the wallet again on getting a better optic... I still might do that... but thus far the Bushnell has been great... I have had very few...almost no issues with this optic so far.

I will say this though... it all depends on what you want to accomplish. What are your (shooting) goals? If you are trying to stack shots and be super precise out 100 yards and beyond... there are better options...

BUT if you want an all around tactical type optic and you're ok getting "lead on the target" or are shooting steel or whatever... then this is fine.
Great info. Thanks for the tips on measurements at distance.

200 yards is going to be the max for me. It's pretty much going to be a "do-all" optic for 0-200 yards with the majority of shooting to be under 100.

First focal plane with a big selling point for me.

If you have any more tips I'll be glad to hear them. Just ordered one.

[alamo5000]

Great info. Thanks for the tips on measurements at distance.

200 yards is going to be the max for me. It's pretty much going to be a "do-all" optic for 0-200 yards with the majority of shooting to be under 100.

First focal plane with a big selling point for me.

If you have any more tips I'll be glad to hear them. Just ordered one.

How are you going to mount it?

[Pyzik]

How are you going to mount it?
I got a pair of nikon extended rings for now.

Looking at some type of quick release though.

[alamo5000]

I got a pair of nikon extended rings for now.

Looking at some type of quick release though.

Whatever you use take extra time to make sure the thing is leveled properly. It does make a difference. Do you know the height of your rings?

I used an AERO Precision mount on mine.

BTW what are you mounting it on (specs)? (just curious is all)

[Pyzik]

From reading, the mount will be 1.5".

It's going on a BCM upper w/Daniel Defence 14.5" barrel and BCM BCG, BCM H buffer.
Mega lower, Colt LPK, CTR stock.

[JHoward]

I really love the Aero Precision mounts.

[Deckard]

I'm still in the same dilemma. I was hoping the new SWFA 1-4x had cap turrets but it doesn't but I also found a great deal on the PA 1-6x w/ ADM mount.

[JHoward]

I'm really digging the previously mentioned Bushnell 1-4.

[JHoward]

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x-24mm-throw-down-pcl-ar91424i.html

PSA has it for a good bit less than Amazon.

[Pyzik]

I'm really digging the previously mentioned Bushnell 1-4.
That's what I ordered. Should be here Friday.

Can't wait to give it a shot, pun intended.

[UWone77]

I'm still in the same dilemma. I was hoping the new SWFA 1-4x had cap turrets but it doesn't but I also found a great deal on the PA 1-6x w/ ADM mount.

The Mil Dot helped me decide not to get the SWFA.

[Ride4frnt]

For the price, the Aero mounts are hard to beat. Light, solid, great lock on the upper. Let's be honest, how many times do you see yourself in a situation your gonna have to dump the scope off your gun in a hurry?

[JHoward]

That's what made me decide on the AP mount for my PRO. I never used the QD anyway, and it just seemed like an easy way to shed a little weight.

[Pyzik]

For the price, the Aero mounts are hard to beat. Light, solid, great lock on the upper. Let's be honest, how many times do you see yourself in a situation your gonna have to dump the scope off your gun in a hurry?
VERY few. I was debating if I needed to keep BUIS to be honest.
Decided to keep em though.

[voodoo_man]

I got this aero mount userd

http://i.imgur.com/19DO7hs.jpg

Pretty impressed with it, though it is NOT QD which is a no-go for a gun with BUIS (in my opinion).

I ordered an SWFA-branded (Bobro built) 30mm extended for my SR4c, because I need QD.

[gatordev]

The Mil Dot helped me decide not to get the SWFA.

I'm starting to get less and less excited about the SWFA offerings when I look at the weights. I know it's FFP, but even the 1-4 with a mount weighs more than an Elcan DR. Yes, it's cheaper, but at the end of the day, I keep coming back to the ACOG, which seems to meet both the weight and price points. Just not the tacticool points.

[alamo5000]

I really love the Aero Precision mounts.


I am using the Aero SPR. I like it.

[alamo5000]

I'm really digging the previously mentioned Bushnell 1-4.

So far I am digging it too :)

It gets 4.5 stars out of 5 from me... the downside as previously mentioned... they need to make the turrets more stable for my liking. But it ain't half bad at all.

[UWone77]

For the price, the Aero mounts are hard to beat. Light, solid, great lock on the upper. Let's be honest, how many times do you see yourself in a situation your gonna have to dump the scope off your gun in a hurry?

Bingo, and in a situation where deploying BUIS is life or death? Probably a very small percentage of us.

[alamo5000]

Bingo, and in a situation where deploying BUIS is life or death? Probably a very small percentage of us.

How would you run BUIS with an Aero SPR anyway? I am still trying to figure this one out :)

[UWone77]

How would you run BUIS with an Aero SPR anyway? I am still trying to figure this one out :)

No, I wouldn't run any BUIS with a non-QD mount.

[alamo5000]

No, I wouldn't run any BUIS with a non-QD mount.

Next question, calling upon your expertise.

IF I decide to upgrade optics to say something really good... like US Optics or whatever... assuming I get the right design and all that stuff.... what really do I gain over say a cheaper model like the one I am using now?

I paid just over $200 bucks to the door for what I have now (the Bushnell 1-4) but 'really' what is to be gained if I stick with 1-4 but go with US Optics or Night Force or something like that? Same style just different more top shelf brand....


Of course I could probably drive a nail with the Night Force (as in physically banging on it)... but other than that....

[JHoward]

Buis with a scope is not really something needed. Maybe some offset sites if you're super tactical like that, but it's not like the battery in your scope is going to go out and leave you down...

[alamo5000]

Buis with a scope is not really something needed. Maybe some offset sites if you're super tactical like that, but it's not like the battery in your scope is going to go out and leave you down...

+1 for etched reticles :)

[Pyzik]

Buis with a scope is not really something needed. Maybe some offset sites if you're super tactical like that, but it's not like the battery in your scope is going to go out and leave you down...

I was thinking along the same lines but then thought "what if the glass beaks, or gets really fogged, or is bumped and you're way off zero"?

[CarbonScoring]

If you really need BUIS, get a set of the Magpul BUS Pro Offsets. You can fold them down and they are really out of the way.

[JHoward]

I was thinking along the same lines but then thought "what if the glass beaks, or gets really fogged, or is bumped and you're way off zero"?

Yeah, but what if your BUIS get knocked off at the same time, etc, etc? I mean, unless you're in an all-out war where multiple guys are coming at you and you have no cover, no retreat, and no backups, well, I guess you're screwed then. ;) But in all reality, in most EVERY situation, you'll be fine.

Just get an FSP if you want a buis that will always be there. That's why I've always had one. I've proven (to myself at least) that I can make viable hits at a fair distance with just an FSP. Just takes a consistent position and cheekweld.

[schambers]

Next question, calling upon your expertise.

IF I decide to upgrade optics to say something really good... like US Optics or whatever... assuming I get the right design and all that stuff.... what really do I gain over say a cheaper model like the one I am using now?

I paid just over $200 bucks to the door for what I have now (the Bushnell 1-4) but 'really' what is to be gained if I stick with 1-4 but go with US Optics or Night Force or something like that? Same style just different more top shelf brand....


Of course I could probably drive a nail with the Night Force (as in physically banging on it)... but other than that....

I've never used SWFA branded glass but in general the big differences between expensive and inexpensive optics are weight, durability, glass quality and accuracy. clarification of terms:

Weight = favorable size-to-weight ratios in expensive optics
Durability = ability to hold zero after taking abuse, pieces not wearing out as quickly and seals staying tight over time
Glass quality = as you go higher in price, the glass and glass coatings become more refined. In a very basic description, you will get more clarity at higher magnifications, more clarity in low light environments and less ocular distortion around the edges of the image. Differences become very minor as you go up in price though, and you might not even be able to notice a difference beyond a certain point.
Accuracy = by this I am referring the accuracy of the optic's mechanical parts. will the zero you set up at a low magnification be the same at a high magnification? You would think so but this is not always the case. Does one "click" of the knob result in the same amount of movement each and every time? Are the cliks in the knobs even clearly deatinguishable? Does the .1 MOA click actually move .1 MOA or is it something weird like .11 MOA?
Again these are all things that you would think every optic gets right, but that is not always the case.

*edit* I forgot to mention this: A big reason some mid-range optics with similar features (ie. 1-4x with 30mm tube) are far more expensive than others is the way they are manufactured. For instance, all US Optics scopes, from the cheapest to the most expensive, are made in the same factory and undergo the same quality control checks. Other companies (Bushnell in particular) offer similar optics at sometimes drastically cheaper prices. How can Bushnell do this? Answer: they do not produce their own optics. Instead they source them from other manufacturers and re-brand them as their own. This is not necessarily a bad thing as their higher end tactical scopes are very well made and very well regarded. The problem comes in when you start comparing Bushnell's high end optics with the less expensive models. Their different tiers are made by different manufacturers and are therefore not subject to the same quality control. Again, it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it may require you to do a little more research on your end.

Also check out SWFAs used and demo optic sales. They generally have pretty good deals

[mustangfreek]

I am running a aero mount and so far thru some various beatings and remounting to a different gun and back to the other, never had to touch the adjustments...Good mount for the price

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z176/mustang91_2007/photo3_zpsa0af6213.jpg

[voodoo_man]

You should have buis on a gun that may see some sort of "down range action." Specifically because it may get banged up and you may need to rip the optix off and roll. Sure, not exactly high probability but would you wanna be the guy who doesnt do it to a gun they carry around, a truck gun or "home defense" gun and then have it occur? Its not expensive and totally doable.

[schambers]

I've only ever had one malfunction with a CCO. After taking a shot, the dot would disappear, I hit the tube with my hand and it came back. Fire again and the dot disappeared. Did this one more times before flipping up the rear iron sight. Upon later inspection, the curly battery spring thing had become loose after prolonged abuse and the recoil caused the circut to break and drop power. Fortunately we were taking contact from about 400 meters so I had some time to troubleshoot and deploy rear sight.

After that I became a big advocate of having backup sights AND making sure they are zero'ed

[rob_s]

Offset BUIS > QD mount

[rob_s]

I had an older Aimpoint ML2 or 3 that compressed the battery terminals Eotech-style. Optic would shut-off under recoil. I discovered this at a "run whatcha brung" range day, and completed the drills with no BUIS and using only the tube. Had all -0 hits out to 25+ yards.

Still, I put fixed BUIS on the SHTFantasy gun after that. Mostly because I wouldn't want to get the gun to the range again and discover that I couldn't make longer hits. I proved to myself that for my SHTFantasy indoor gun that BUIS we unnecessary.

[Txfilmmaker]

I cant really tell ya which way to go, as im in the same boat, and myself want to try a micro for my pistol.

Anyways, a cheap "on sale " option is this bushnell AR 1-4 scope, i happened to look thru one at cabelas and it had decent glass, and the reticle was decent for a shooter.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-ar91424.html

Or even a little better deal if you buy a mount with it, it has the burris QD mount with the same scope for $189 and a $20 rebate...just something for you to ponder..id say if you had somewhere local you could go look thru the glass first, so you know what your getting

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/bushnell-ar-optics-1-4x24mm-bdc-riflescope-and-burris-pepr-mount-2.html

Now down to $129 with rebate!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tact]

A bit shocked that it was suggested not to run BUIS if you run a scope......that somehow glass negates irons??? I guess different strokes for different folks.

[JHoward]

I think it gets a little silly with irons being something everyone HAS to have. I personally run them, and I would run offsets with a scope, but I don't think they're something you have to have. I can't tell you how much abuse I've put my shit through and how many times I have NOT injured my optic... Do you have a backup bolt on your rifle at all times? They break. I've broken more bolts than I have scopes... That's for sure.

[UWone77]

A bit shocked that it was suggested not to run BUIS if you run a scope......that somehow glass negates irons??? I guess different strokes for different folks.

Well a couple of thoughts about that.

I think it depends on the setup. If this is a range toy, then no, I'm probably not going to put money into backup sights as the worst thing that could happen is... my range day gets cut short. If you want to have them, I don't see an issue obviously.

If I have a non-QD mount, then I think backups are pretty useless as well.

Duty Gun, guys deployed in the sandbox, yeah, I'd put backup sights on... even if it is the for minuscule chance the glass on the optic breaks.

We aren't allowed magnified optics on our department guns, but must have backup sights with red dots/holosights because we have all been there when the batteries die, and in a pinch, having those backup sights are a must.

[FortTom]

Well a couple of thoughts about that.

I think it depends on the setup. If this is a range toy, then no, I'm probably not going to put money into backup sights as the worst thing that could happen is... my range day gets cut short. If you want to have them, I don't see an issue obviously.

If I have a non-QD mount, then I think backups are pretty useless as well.

Duty Gun, guys deployed in the sandbox, yeah, I'd put backup sights on... even if it is the for minuscule chance the glass on the optic breaks.

We aren't allowed magnified optics on our department guns, but must have backup sights with red dots/holosights because we have all been there when the batteries die, and in a pinch, having those backup sights are a must.

Along those same lines, it would also depend on how many rifles you have, as to whether or not it's a range toy or dual purpose. They guy with one, maybe two rifles, depending on his current optic set-up, if any, may very well want BUIS's, as his weapons may have to serve dual purposes, such as plinking, and also be ready for defensive use, if the need did ever arise.

I've pared my rifles down to six AR's and 1 AR-10, and they all wear BUIS. Will I ever need them? Probably not, but they're there if some calamity, such as a collapse of our economy, or asteroid, or what ever apocalypse I can dream up, happened. Also have an upper or two, both primarily for varmint hunting. No need for them there, unless a calamity happens just before dispatching a coyote.

On the other hand, if you have two or three safes full of AR's, and a dozen extra uppers, no, it probably wouldn't pay to buy BUIS's for them all. A lot of folks I know can only have one AR, for whatever reason, and in that case, if they use an optical sight, I'd definitely recommend BUIS's.

[rob_s]

The necessity of BUIS on a magnified optic, or for that matter any optic that has a reticule that is not 100% battery dependent, is lesser than with something like an Aimpoint or Eotech wherein the reticule completely vanishes when the battery dies. Doubly so in the case of the latter which (a) has far shorter battery life and (b) not being a tube makes index shooting more difficult.

[Pyzik]

Threw it on. Headed to the range some time this week.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7521/15929820029_8d7e7ec7e9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgEuvt)
Grunge (https://flic.kr/p/qgEuvt) by Pyzik (https://www.flickr.com/people/83018433@N04/), on Flickr

[alamo5000]

Threw it on. Headed to the range some time this week.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7521/15929820029_8d7e7ec7e9_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/qgEuvt)
Grunge (https://flic.kr/p/qgEuvt) by Pyzik (https://www.flickr.com/people/83018433@N04/), on Flickr

Mighty nice there! Looking good!

What do you think of the reticle when you look through the scope?

[Pyzik]

Mighty nice there! Looking good!

What do you think of the reticle when you look through the scope?
From just playing with it, I like it. I don't see the reticle itself to be an issue for me.
I'll say though that the only other scopes I have experience with is a Tasco 3-9x on my .22 and a (Bushnell?) 4-12x, both with traditional crosshairs.

The scope is not a true 1x (closer to 1.1-1.2x maybe) and (to me) it's heavy.

Look forward to getting to the range to try it out.

[JGifford]

Sold my VCOG and bought a T2/G33. Very pleased with the upgrade. Just my .02.