Which would you prefer?

[Soisauss]

So having built roughly 4 ARS already (with 2 more on hold) I started to think about something. Something more in line of extreme abuse type rifle, one that I would have no problem taking it everywhere, a do it all type weapon and also the one that's not in my inventory.

So far all my ARS are 16+ inches middys in barrel length with one being a 10.5 carbine, I was missing the medium length, the 14.7. Having to stay within legal length a pinned 14.7.

Personally I think the 14.7 is the perfect compromise between a 16 and 10 in terms of a do-it-all type scenario. However there's a problem, The gas system option of carbine or midlength.

Can any of you chime in with anything to contribute on either gas system for a 14.7?

Ultimately, I want it to be reliable and never fail in the firing system. I can't decide which route to go.

[Ride4frnt]

Mid length, no questions. I've never ever had reliability issues in either of the 14.5" I've had, and less felt recoil is a plus.

[GOST]

My 14.5" is a BCM BFH middy, I'm also using a H buffer. With ammo like Tula it sometimes will not lock the bolt back. It may do it with a carbine buffer but I haven't tried.

[Ride4frnt]

My 14.5" is a BCM BFH middy, I'm also using a H buffer. With ammo like Tula it sometimes will not lock the bolt back. It may do it with a carbine buffer but I haven't tried.

Never run a H in mine, just carbine and a spikes t2 once. No problems with the t2. Shooting mostly .223 plinking reloads and m193. I've never run steel cased ammo, so ymmv.

[Soisauss]

So the consensus is mostly for midlength. I heard and read most people who do 14.7 run on a middy gas system.

[MonkeyBomb]

Mid length all day long.

[schambers]

I honestly never felt a big difference between mid and carbine systems in a 14.5" barrel, but that's just me.

If your talking about building the most general purpose AR you possibly can, a carbine length gas system will cycle/ and or lock back with a wider range of ammunition more reliably... But at that point you are talking about cycling 98% of ammunition versus 96%

why are you looking at 14.7" and not 14.5"?

[toolboxluis00200]

never shoot a mid but i have herd it work great on a 14.5 so why not go that rout

[Soisauss]

I honestly never felt a big difference between mid and carbine systems in a 14.5" barrel, but that's just me.

If your talking about building the most general purpose AR you possibly can, a carbine length gas system will cycle/ and or lock back with a wider range of ammunition more reliably... But at that point you are talking about cycling 98% of ammunition versus 96%

why are you looking at 14.7" and not 14.5"?

No real reason, plus I figures that . 2 inches won't make that much of a difference, but correct me if I'm wrong.

It's also dependent on what the retailer is offering :p

[schambers]

I 'm not looking at a velocity chart right now but your probably talking about a negligible difference in velocity between the two barrels. You woldn't feel a difference in weight or point-ability unless the 14.5" and 14.7" were side by side.

[GOST]

I honestly never felt a big difference between mid and carbine systems in a 14.5" barrel, but that's just me.

I have to agree with Schambers here. The mid-length may shooter a little softer but not much. I'm not downing a 14.5" middy, as it's the setup I've been playing with most lately. I really like my middy, but in a 14.5" the difference is marginal over a carbine. Now in a 16" there is a lot bigger difference since a 16" carbine is way over gased.

[GOST]

Soisauss if the barrel your looking at is a Centurion Arms 14.7" carbine length, I used to have one and it was a great barrel.

[Soisauss]

Soisauss if the barrel your looking at is a Centurion Arms 14.7" carbine length, I used to have one and it was a great barrel.

:D lolol

But also looking at psa rifle kit with the middy 14.7 too

[Ride4frnt]

:D lolol

But also looking at psa rifle kit with the middy 14.7 too

My brother has a 14.5 barrel from PSA and have had zero issues.

[GOST]

Them PSA barrels from FN are GTG.

[JHoward]

I have owned two 14.7 mid lengths from PSA and a handful from BCM and they have all been great shooters. Mine would lock back Tula with an H buffer. I would recommend going with whatever company you can get a good muzzle device installed from. I have never tried to get PSA to install one, but I can say that with BCM giving free BCG's with their uppers, that is a pretty solid value right now. I ordered my last one with a BCM Gunfighter comp pinned. It was an awesome rifle. Very flat shooting, and the Gunfighter comp is not too aggressive that you have to double up on ear pro.

[UWone77]

I honestly never felt a big difference between mid and carbine systems in a 14.5" barrel, but that's just me.

If your talking about building the most general purpose AR you possibly can, a carbine length gas system will cycle/ and or lock back with a wider range of ammunition more reliably... But at that point you are talking about cycling 98% of ammunition versus 96%

why are you looking at 14.7" and not 14.5"?

I agree with you. I think people who claim that a 14.5 Mid shoots softer than a 14.5" carbine or whatnot is suffering from a placebo effect. I can't tell the difference, maybe there is one, but I can't feel it.

14.7's and 14.5's with pinned muzzle devices suck for the most part. 14.7's and 14.8's exist so people can pin and weld standard muzzle devices like A2's without getting a longer one to meet the legal length.

I would argue you should only have hard use/abuse rifles. Just my opinion though.

[JHoward]

It's a lot more noticeable in a 16" mid vs. carbine IMO.

[Ride4frnt]

I agree with you. I think people who claim that a 14.5 Mid shoots softer than a 14.5" carbine or whatnot is suffering from a placebo effect. I can't tell the difference, maybe there is one, but I can't feel it.

14.7's and 14.5's with pinned muzzle devices suck for the most part. 14.7's and 14.8's exist so people can pin and weld standard muzzle devices like A2's without getting a longer one to meet the legal length.

I would argue you should only have hard use/abuse rifles. Just my opinion though.

Reckon I should have worded my first post better. I agree on the fact that it's more noticeable on the 16", but the thought is still the same. Theoretically there should be a difference, albeit negligible.

[GOST]

I don't know what the difference in cyclic rate is between a 14.5" middy or carbine, but the middy may be a little easier on parts. One thing to consider is with a carbine length the gas block is a little farther back and shifts the center of balance back a little. A lot of guys on other forums are claiming that the BCM 14.5" ELW feels like a 12.5".

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-14-5-Mid-Length-Barrel-ENHANCED-LIGHT-WEIGHT-p/bcm-brl-mid-14.5-elw-std.htm

[FortTom]

Soisauss, what is it that you built into your rifles, that make them marginal? I say marginal, because you said you wanted a heavy duty do it all gun. As far as the difference between mid-length or carbine, I really don't think it matters one bit as to the toughness of your weapons. I have to admit that two of my rifles with heavier barrels and C4 rails "feel" beefier than the Voodoo Arms ultra light barrel KMR rifle I built, but I really wouldn't feel underserved grabbing any rifle in my safe, say in a natural disaster or something, where I could only grab one and go. Now I have narrowed it down to six and one AR-10. Unless you just want to build another rifle, I'd go back through what ever you've built so far, and rectify any steps you took that make you not have faith in them as a "do anything" rifle. I would reconfigure every one, if I had too, unless it's a purpose built rifle like a 3 Gun comp rifle, and have a whole safe full of "do anything" rifles.[:)]

FT

[Soisauss]

Oh, I don't doubt the FN barrels, I was just in a terrible limbo on which gas system that would be the most optimized for a 14.7 as I have never trekked into this territory. 16 inch with carbine or middy I can easily say middy, but 14.7 I'm about as clueless as...well, clueless lolol

[Soisauss]

Soisauss, what is it that you built into your rifles, that make them marginal? I say marginal, because you said you wanted a heavy duty do it all gun. As far as the difference between mid-length or carbine, I really don't think it matters one bit as to the toughness of your weapons. I have to admit that two of my rifles with heavier barrels and C4 rails "feel" beefier than the Voodoo Arms ultra light barrel KMR rifle I built, but I really wouldn't feel underserved grabbing any rifle in my safe, say in a natural disaster or something, where I could only grab one and go. Now I have narrowed it down to six and one AR-10. Unless you just want to build another rifle, I'd go back through what ever you've built so far, and rectify any steps you took that make you not have faith in them as a "do anything" rifle. I would reconfigure every one, if I had too, unless it's a purpose built rifle like a 3 Gun comp rifle, and have a whole safe full of "do anything" rifles.[:)]

FT

By heavy duty, I meant one that will see more rounds than any of my current ar. it would be the one that sits in the trunk of my car for a random impromptu range meet or do heavy drills on. That's what I meant. I know all my rifles are above and beyond duty capable and would never fail and would not hesitate a bit on grabbing one and go , but they tend to have fancier parts in it, not that I don't abuse them already. But also I wanted a shorter barrel or moreso a straight 16" instead of a 16" + the muzzle device.


UW, I think all my current ar's have seen it's fair share of rain water, mud and vegetations (oopss, did I drop that? let me wipe off the mud lolol).

The whole purpose of this thread was to clarify on the optimal gas system one would use on a 14 inch barrel as I have zero clue on it, because I thought it was only the carbine gas system for a 14 inch, didn't know they even made a middy for a 14.
My apologies if my initial post didn't make sense. lol

[GOST]

They're both good to go, mine just doesn't like weaker pressured steel case ammo.

[Will@AR15Hunter]

14.5" and shorter = carbine
16" = middy
18-20"+ = rifle

That's what I've seen some say is the order of which system to run.

I'm with UWone77 here, I can't tell the difference in felt recoil between a middy and carbine. I've owned both.

I prefer carbine gas for my carbines because it's a proven system on the battlefield. I don't buy the hype of the mid length gas system (the "better" dwell time is measured in milliseconds, it's supposedly easier on parts, less recoil, etc.). I will say that when iron sights are concerned (as in a barrel with a FSB), the middy barrel does offer a longer sight radius. This is the only positive I can find to the middy system on a carbine, and that disappears when you talk about longer rails with low-pro gas blocks, etc.

So, my vote is carbine for a 14.5" or 14.7".

[Soisauss]

14.5" and shorter = carbine
16" = middy
18-20"+ = rifle

That's what I've seen some say is the order of which system to run.

I'm with UWone77 here, I can't tell the difference in felt recoil between a middy and carbine. I've owned both.

I prefer carbine gas for my carbines because it's a proven system on the battlefield. I don't buy the hype of the mid length gas system (the "better" dwell time is measured in milliseconds, it's supposedly easier on parts, less recoil, etc.). I will say that when iron sights are concerned (as in a barrel with a FSB), the middy barrel does offer a longer sight radius. This is the only positive I can find to the middy system on a carbine, and that disappears when you talk about longer rails with low-pro gas blocks, etc.

So, my vote is carbine for a 14.5" or 14.7".


Actually, I plan on running a front FSB instead of a low pro gas block. But thanks for those info!! :D


I guess it's appropriate to maybe say, why not build both? lolol

[JHoward]

I just love my mid lengths. Especially 14.5". I'm very partial to them. I haven't owned a carbine length gas system over 14.5" in a long time. I guess I'm a mid-length fanboy, but I'm also an FSB fanboy, and 14.5" mid lengths with FSB's are just freakin good-looking.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/ohmydodge/2012-10-08_17-46-57_771.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/ohmydodge/IMG_20130923_214139_zpseb0e29e9.jpg

[Soisauss]

I just love my mid lengths. Especially 14.5". I'm very partial to them. I haven't owned a carbine length gas system over 14.5" in a long time. I guess I'm a mid-length fanboy, but I'm also an FSB fanboy, and 14.5" mid lengths with FSB's are just freakin good-looking.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/ohmydodge/2012-10-08_17-46-57_771.jpg


This. is what I'm after, less the carry handle. Very nice sir!

[WHSmithIV]

14.7's and 14.5's with pinned muzzle devices suck for the most part. 14.7's and 14.8's exist so people can pin and weld standard muzzle devices like A2's without getting a longer one to meet the legal length.


Just out of curiosity UWone, why do you think that 14.5's with pinned (or welded) muzzle devices suck? Granted, it's a pain to change one if you decide you want a different one. I'm curious because I've been thinking about doing a .300 Blackout with a 14.5 barrel.

[WHSmithIV]

JHoward - I like that first one with the carry handle too. [:)]

[JHoward]

Thanks. It was a 14.5" BFH with the DD Omega and the pinned BC. I had to sell the upper to pay for my wife's last semester of college. :(

[rob_s]

I honestly never felt a big difference between mid and carbine systems in a 14.5" barrel, but that's just me.

If your talking about building the most general purpose AR you possibly can, a carbine length gas system will cycle/ and or lock back with a wider range of ammunition more reliably... But at that point you are talking about cycling 98% of ammunition versus 96%

why are you looking at 14.7" and not 14.5"?

I have, but it's very subjective as there are so many other variable (buffer, spring, muzzle device, barrel weight, ammo, etc.) I don't know of anyone that has tested two otherwise identical guns.

I agree on 14.5" and not 14.7", as the 14.5 will give you more barrel choices as more people make them.

Frankly, however, I am a huge un-fan of all this pinning nonsense.

[Pyzik]

Since I've had both, if I were getting another, I would go 14.5(.7, whatever) midlength.
My 14.5 middy was noticeably smoother shooting than my now 14.5 carbine is.
Some of it may have been the different brakes (FSC556 vs Battlecomp) but I think the majority was the gas system.

Go middy. I had no issues with reliability outside of a couple rounds of .223 PMC bronze short stroking, but that load is known to be weak.

EDIT to say that all that was changed for me other than gas system was the barrel brand and comp (pinned). Buffer and spring were the same, barrel length stayed the same.

[FortTom]

I have, but it's very subjective as there are so many other variable (buffer, spring, muzzle device, barrel weight, ammo, etc.) I don't know of anyone that has tested two otherwise identical guns.

I agree on 14.5" and not 14.7", as the 14.5 will give you more barrel choices as more people make them.

Frankly, however, I am a huge un-fan of all this pinning nonsense.

Just curious, why? A couple of mine aren't pinned, and I don't worry for a second, but just curious as to your reasoning.

[Computalotapus]

Just curious, why? A couple of mine aren't pinned, and I don't worry for a second, but just curious as to your reasoning.

Anything under a 16" barrel needs the muzzle device permanently attached to get it to 16" or it needs to be registered as an SBR

[FortTom]

Anything under a 16" barrel needs the muzzle device permanently attached to get it to 16" or it needs to be registered as an SBR

I knew that, Comp. I thought he was referring to pinning the gas block... guess I need to read a little more carefully. On that subject though, I'm not a big fan of being married to a particular muzzle device forever, and just live with the additional inch and a half or so using a 16" barrel.

FT

[Computalotapus]

I knew that, Comp. I thought he was referring to pinning the gas block... guess I need to read a little more carefully. On that subject though, I'm not a big fan of being married to a particular muzzle device forever, and just live with the additional inch and a half or so using a 16" barrel.

FT

I have built one 14.5 middy and she is a finicky lil brat about ammo. Then again it was the first rifle I put together and just maybe I don't have the GB lined up to the port all the way /shrug who knows. I just know that I personally would stick to the 16" just so I don't have to worry about the headache of pinning anything especially now days when barrel nuts are so specific to the rail. Not only are you marred to the muzzle device but most of the time that marries you to the GB and the rail at the same time.

But I think everyone travels that road at least once I have and I don't regret it cause I learned a lot from that build. I have another 14.5" build in the books but not for me, my brother wants a M4 clone so he is getting a M4 clone.

[Uffdaphil]

BCM recommends the H buffer in their 14.5" middy. I bought two, but will probably choose 16" in future. The pinned comp is fine on the ELW-F/KMR since I know I will never change the rail. But trying to shave the FSB in situ on the second led to a mess I prefer to avoid from now on.

[JGifford]

So having built roughly 4 ARS already (with 2 more on hold) I started to think about something. Something more in line of extreme abuse type rifle, one that I would have no problem taking it everywhere, a do it all type weapon and also the one that's not in my inventory.

So far all my ARS are 16+ inches middys in barrel length with one being a 10.5 carbine, I was missing the medium length, the 14.7. Having to stay within legal length a pinned 14.7.

Personally I think the 14.7 is the perfect compromise between a 16 and 10 in terms of a do-it-all type scenario. However there's a problem, The gas system option of carbine or midlength.

Can any of you chime in with anything to contribute on either gas system for a 14.7?

Ultimately, I want it to be reliable and never fail in the firing system. I can't decide which route to go.

14.5-14.7 with a mid-length and 0.076-0.082 gas port should do great. Depends on which end of the spectrum you want to live. Want to use an H2 buffer for 5.56? Go 0.082 or so. Want to run an H-buffer with 5.56? Go with 0.076.

That said, I'm done with 14.5-7's. I like M600U's, and I like them at the end of my rail, and I like my 13-14" rails, and I don't like the light hanging out in the muzzle blast. Also, being married to a rail and muzzle device flat out sucks and is not worth the minute shift in balance, which, yes, I can feel, but it's just not worth the "cost".

I have no use for a 10.3-5" SBR in 5.56. I owned a Noveske 10.5, sent it back, they are rebuilding it for me, I kindof don't know what I'll do with it when I get it back. Probably will be my hard-use carbine course gun and just run a can on it 100% of the time.

[UWone77]

Just out of curiosity UWone, why do you think that 14.5's with pinned (or welded) muzzle devices suck? Granted, it's a pain to change one if you decide you want a different one. I'm curious because I've been thinking about doing a .300 Blackout with a 14.5 barrel.

You asked and answered the questions.

The whole pin and weld/un-pin and weld for 1.5" in length seems silly to me. Don't get me wrong, I have a ton of 14.5" uppers, but the first time, I had to un-pin something, it was a pain, cost a lot, and that's when I thought it wasn't worth it. If you have a safe full of guns/uppers, then sure go for it. However, if you only have 1 rifle, or a new shooter, I would highly recommend the 16", because there are so many muzzle devices out there, what you may want 100% today could change tomorrow, and that's expensive.

[WHSmithIV]

The whole pin and weld/un-pin and weld for 1.5" in length seems silly to me.

I certainly do agree with that.

[Soisauss]

Good golly the plethora of info I received in this thread is pure goldmine!

Thank you all!!