PDA

View Full Version : M4 Clone



Computalotapus
21 December 2014, 15:15
Well my brother who is still enlisted in the USAF has asked that I build him a clone of his duty weapon. We talked about some of the things he doesn't need like the AN/PEQ-15. He would like to have it be similar to his duty weapon so he has something to train with on his personal time.

So here are my questions that I have.

1. I know KAC makes the current forend for the M4 rifle. These are not free float hand guards, they just replace the colt plastic hand guards. Is there an alternative to this that isn't as expensive as the KAC.

2. The rear sight if I am not mistaken is a MaTech rear sight?

3. The M68 RDS is basically the Comp M4 from Aimpoint?

4. What vertical foregrip is that?

And no post is complete unless there are pictures involved right?


http://www.computalotapus.com/images/m41.jpg

http://www.computalotapus.com/images/m42.jpg

http://www.computalotapus.com/images/m43.jpg

http://www.computalotapus.com/images/m44.jpg

http://www.computalotapus.com/images/m45.jpg

UWone77
21 December 2014, 15:29
You can find a KAC RAS in good to excellent condition used for around $100. The complete kit around $120-$150. The complete kit will include the KAC VFG you're asking about in the picture as well as the rail panels in various sizes.

In fact I bought 2 complete RAS kits with the grips and panels for $120 each. One I used for my new duty gun during my department transition. I figured it was a non-permanent modification to my weapon, and also a proven design. Cost was also a big factor in that decision. The other I planned to use on a LMT 10.5" to build a MK18 clone, since gatordev gives me shit about my DD MK18 upper that really isn't a MK18, which he's right of course.

Anyhow, that's a matech, and did your buddy use a M68 when it was an Aimpoint M2 or when it was a M4?

Computalotapus
21 December 2014, 15:45
You can find a KAC RAS in good to excellent condition used for around $100. The complete kit around $120-$150. The complete kit will include the KAC VFG you're asking about in the picture as well as the rail panels in various sizes.

In fact I bought 2 complete RAS kits with the grips and panels for $120 each. One I used for my new duty gun during my department transition. I figured it was a non-permanent modification to my weapon, and also a proven design. Cost was also a big factor in that decision. The other I planned to use on a LMT 10.5" to build a MK18 clone, since gatordev gives me shit about my DD MK18 upper that really isn't a MK18, which he's right of course.

Anyhow, that's a matech, and did your buddy use a M68 when it was an Aimpoint M2 or when it was a M4?

Sad that my brother doesn't know the difference or what is what on his weapon he just uses it lol.

Hmm he said it was a M68 I did the google work and it came back M4 but now looking at the M2 I see what you are talking about. I guess the difference is the M2 is 4 MOA where the M4 is 2 MOA. I will have to ask him to talk to the CATM guys they can give him more info on it. To be honest he doesn't know much about the platform and is just now getting into shooting it outside of it being his duty weapon.

Where do you get the used KAC kits? Are you grabbing them off ebay?

gatordev
21 December 2014, 16:50
I'm just here to "help" UWone.

Comp, you can find the KAC parts everywhere. ARF.com is a good place to start, as they pop up there all the time. If you frequent a decently sized internet gun board, you'll see them there, as well. I just recently picked up a P&S Products rail on Calguns for less than $100, which is also a legit part as they received a contract to help with underproduction. Looks almost identical to the KAC except the numbering is different.

They're good rails and I find no real slop in the two I have. If free floating is a requirement, you could go with a DD omega 7", which is still technically kosher, since some AFSOC guys were seen with them. But honestly, my MK18/CQBR has had zero accuracy issues with the KAC rail.

One other thing to consider if you're into building on the OCD level is to get the "correct" barrel. If a 14.5" is off the table due to NFA/pinning, then a SOCOM 16" would be pretty close to the real thing. Seems the barrels have been switched out to the HB profile over the last few years.

Then again, you could grab my 16" M4 profile I have on sale now. Smiles, of course! (Seriously, a 6920 will get you 90% there)

Quick and dirty cell phone pic of my mostly MWS clone with the P&S rails:

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/IMG_0406_zps82cffed1.jpg

schambers
21 December 2014, 17:26
Last time I checked you could get blemished kits from KAC directly. A full kit is issued with the upper and lower rail, rail guards and the vertical foregrip.

I don't know what area you work out of, but if its anything like the area around Bragg, there are more surplus stores than I care to count. If you poke around those places chances are you will be able to pick up the rails, grip and sights for around $150.

Also, its been a while since I've looked through an M68 but I *think* its a 4 MOA dot.

Computalotapus
21 December 2014, 17:29
I'm just here to "help" UWone.

Comp, you can find the KAC parts everywhere. ARF.com is a good place to start, as they pop up there all the time. If you frequent a decently sized internet gun board, you'll see them there, as well. I just recently picked up a P&S Products rail on Calguns for less than $100, which is also a legit part as they received a contract to help with underproduction. Looks almost identical to the KAC except the numbering is different.

They're good rails and I find no real slop in the two I have. If free floating is a requirement, you could go with a DD omega 7", which is still technically kosher, since some AFSOC guys were seen with them. But honestly, my MK18/CQBR has had zero accuracy issues with the KAC rail.

One other thing to consider if you're into building on the OCD level is to get the "correct" barrel. If a 14.5" is off the table due to NFA/pinning, then a SOCOM 16" would be pretty close to the real thing. Seems the barrels have been switched out to the HB profile over the last few years.

Then again, you could grab my 16" M4 profile I have on sale now. Smiles, of course! (Seriously, a 6920 will get you 90% there)

Quick and dirty cell phone pic of my mostly MWS clone with the P&S rails:

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/IMG_0406_zps82cffed1.jpg

Cool deal. I will keep an eye out. Funding will not start for this till 15 Jan 2015. I have seriously thought about grabbing a Colt and just replacing the forend, rear sight, and slapping the RDS on it can calling it good. We are going to go with the correct 14.5" barrel and pin the Flash Hider just so it accurate to what he is using as a duty weapon. I tried to tell him to grab a 16" so later he can change it all around if he wants later on. He said "If I am going to change that much might as well just get a different rifle and keep this one for the purpose it was built" can't argue with that.

We will see how it all goes.

Soisauss
21 December 2014, 17:42
This thread is the reason I was asking about the gas options for a 14.5/7

Keep this thread updated! !

Former11B
21 December 2014, 18:01
And as far as the AimPoint goes, I haven't seen a true M68 with the battery compartment at the base of the optic like that versus at the upper portion of the tube. A new/used Aimpoint PRO will be the most cost effective version and closely resembles what I had in the Army at one point.

A 16" government profile barrel, like the FN barrels that PSA uses, would suit your needs well.

Do you want an actual Colt upper/lower? Buying a stock 6920 from Wally World for $900ish and adding the KAC RAS and Aimpoint/Matech sights would be a quick and easy option

Computalotapus
21 December 2014, 18:44
This thread is the reason I was asking about the gas options for a 14.5/7

Keep this thread updated! !

Will do


And as far as the AimPoint goes, I haven't seen a true M68 with the battery compartment at the base of the optic like that versus at the upper portion of the tube. A new/used Aimpoint PRO will be the most cost effective version and closely resembles what I had in the Army at one point.

A 16" government profile barrel, like the FN barrels that PSA uses, would suit your needs well.

Do you want an actual Colt upper/lower? Buying a stock 6920 from Wally World for $900ish and adding the KAC RAS and Aimpoint/Matech sights would be a quick and easy option

I am actually thinking I will just build it out. Yeah the Colt option would be quick and dirty. But if I want it to be almost identical the best option is to build it and do it right.

Parts List looks like this:

Lower Receiver

Aero Precision Blemished Lower $55.00
Mil-Spec CAR 6 Pos Butt Stock Assembly $72.00
Lower Parts Kit $47.77

Upper Receiver

Aero Precision Blemished Upper $48.00
Aero Precision 14.5" M4 Carbine Barrel $171.00
Aero Precision A2 Flash Hider $9.99
Aero Precision Crush Washer $2.50
Aero Precision Gas Tube $15.00
Aero Precision FA Kit $13.00
Aero Precision EPC Kit $9.00
Aero Precision BCG $125.00
Aero Precision Charging Handle $20.00
BCM FSB .750 $29.95
MaTech Rear Sight $105.00
Misc Handguard Hardware $30.00
KAC RAS Kit $150.00
AimPoint CompM4 $780.00

Build Total: $1683.00 + $30.00 for FFL

UWone77
21 December 2014, 19:23
If you're going to do it right, I wouldn't use Aero.

Granted, nothing wrong with an Aero, but you're building a clone of this guy's duty gun.

Colt 6920 (less than $900) At that price, I see zero reason to build.
KAC RAS
Aimpoint CompM4

I would avoid ebay for gun parts, ARFcom is where I got my complete kit for the RAS. The blems on KAC's site, is only for the Rail only, VFG not included.

I also bought a CompM4 recently on ARF, and picked it up for $440. Threw an extra Bobro Mount I had on it. This thing looked like it was barely used, not a scratch on it.

Computalotapus
21 December 2014, 22:46
If you're going to do it right, I wouldn't use Aero.

Granted, nothing wrong with an Aero, but you're building a clone of this guy's duty gun.

Colt 6920 (less than $900) At that price, I see zero reason to build.
KAC RAS
Aimpoint CompM4

I would avoid ebay for gun parts, ARFcom is where I got my complete kit for the RAS. The blems on KAC's site, is only for the Rail only, VFG not included.

I also bought a CompM4 recently on ARF, and picked it up for $440. Threw an extra Bobro Mount I had on it. This thing looked like it was barely used, not a scratch on it.

I hear you on the ebay just never knew ARF was a spot to look for stuff. The only problem I have with the 6920 is the barrel, it's wrong. Picking up a 6921 upper that has the correct barrel is $740. I don't have to buy Aero is was just a baseline. But lets be honest a quality forged receiver set will work just fine it doesn't need to be stamped colt. I could do a mega set, run a bcm barrel and bcg, pick up a quality lpk from a reputable dealer, 7075 mil spec buffer tube with correct spring, buffer and stock, the kac forend and it will feel just like his duty weapon.

He wants the weapon to feel just like his duty weapon, I don't think the roll mark on the forged receiver is going to change that. If I could buy a 6921 that would be what I would get. Maybe build out a mega lower and just pick up the 6921 upper? Or a BCM 14.5" M4 Carbine upper?

I think the barrel has to be correct. And you said it best when you said "you're building a clone of this guy's duty gun." Moving to the 16.1" barrel would be doing it an injustice. I will look around see if I can pick up a colt lower and then just mate it with a 6921 upper if not I think the 6921 upper or the BCM 14.5" M4 Carbine will be the route I go on a built mega forged lower.

DutyUse
22 December 2014, 00:23
Cool project Comp. When does your brother ship out? Does he know what he's gonna be doing in the AF yet?

I know you wanna stay as true as possible to building him the gun he's gonna be issued, but I think the point UW is rightly suggesting is the 6920 is going to get you *really* close to style/handling/weight/recoil impulse of his assigned duty weapon. It'll have 1.5" extra barrel but with him training with it the practical difference between his assigned riffle and the 16" colt will be negligible.

Plus Colts right now are probably as cheap as we will ever see them again and not having to build could save you a chunk of coin on the project. Just my 2 cents

Either way tell your brother we appreciate his service and Goodluck!

15ICAM
22 December 2014, 01:49
As far as the M68 goes, I've had both the M2 and the M4 varients on issued weapons, They were both listed as sight reflex colometer M68 on the books. The only way they were differentiated was the "M4" style was a sub-lin under the M68 on the books. First I started seeing the newer M4 style was in 2007 just prior to deploying. Very rare that I see the older "M2" style anymore

gatordev
22 December 2014, 03:36
He wants the weapon to feel just like his duty weapon, I don't think the roll mark on the forged receiver is going to change that. If I could buy a 6921 that would be what I would get. Maybe build out a mega lower and just pick up the 6921 upper? Or a BCM 14.5" M4 Carbine upper?

I think the barrel has to be correct. And you said it best when you said "you're building a clone of this guy's duty gun." Moving to the 16.1" barrel would be doing it an injustice. I will look around see if I can pick up a colt lower and then just mate it with a 6921 upper if not I think the 6921 upper or the BCM 14.5" M4 Carbine will be the route I go on a built mega forged lower.

Then I'd just roll with either a 6921HB upper or buy a 6920 gun, buy a 0921HB barrel online (G&R usually has them, but there's usually ones on GB, as well) and swap it out for the 16" barrel. You could use the barrel for another build or try and sell it, which is what I'm doing. I don't know the availability of 6921 SOCOM uppers right now (just haven't looked), but if they're available from DSG, I'd grab that in a heart beat and it would be exactly what you're looking for. The HB profile will be the key, though. BCM also has that profile for sale in a 14.5" for a good price, too.

Computalotapus
22 December 2014, 04:21
Cool project Comp. When does your brother ship out? Does he know what he's gonna be doing in the AF yet?

I know you wanna stay as true as possible to building him the gun he's gonna be issued, but I think the point UW is rightly suggesting is the 6920 is going to get you *really* close to style/handling/weight/recoil impulse of his assigned duty weapon. It'll have 1.5" extra barrel but with him training with it the practical difference between his assigned riffle and the 16" colt will be negligible.

Plus Colts right now are probably as cheap as we will ever see them again and not having to build could save you a chunk of coin on the project. Just my 2 cents

Either way tell your brother we appreciate his service and Goodluck!

My brother has 17 years of service in with the USAF as a Security Forces personnel currently E7 with a line to E8. I think gator has the best option and I know that UW was giving me solid advice. I just hate that in the end I am going to have spare parts laying around that I will never use. Will probably purchase the 6920 then pick up the correct barrel and swap it out.

UWone77 is always right, and I argue with him cause it's not what I want to do but I usually end up doing what he recommends cause it is the right way to do it and in the long haul will be happier with the results. I think his suggestion just needed the tweaking that gatordev gave with the barrel swap to the correct barrel. Can't blame a guy for wanting to build tho can you???

UWone77
22 December 2014, 09:40
What a Colt barrel swap you say? [:D]


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_2656_zpse6fea081.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_2656_zpse6fea081.jpg.html)

Computalotapus
22 December 2014, 09:47
What a Colt barrel swap you say? [:D]


http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_2656_zpse6fea081.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_2656_zpse6fea081.jpg.html)

haha if you still got it when/if he drops the funds for the 6920 we can trade :)

WHSmithIV
22 December 2014, 09:53
Are you really sure you want to go the route of getting that flash hider pinned and welded? Not only that, but the standard A2 flash hider won't be long enough to bring a 14.5" barrel to the minimum, legal 16" length. In the military, it doesn't matter but outside it does. That missing 1/4" makes it a SBR requiring a $200 tax stamp. I measured the one I put on my last 16" barrel. It would have been 1/4" too short for a 14.5" barrel. We have a guy here in the forum selling a never fired 16" Colt barrel - here's the link to his post:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?6884-WTS-Unfired-Colt-16-quot-barrel

gatordev
22 December 2014, 09:54
Pfff...that barrel is so pre-GWOT. Where's your grenade launcher flats and fat barrel?

Comp, one other option that may or may not be as desirable, but could come out as cheaper, is to buy a 6920 and then send the barrel off to ADCO and have them chop it down to 14.5". You'll lose the barrel stamps, but otherwise you'd have a single barrel (no spare parts) that's pinned for ~$100 additional. That's less than what you'd pay for a new SOCOM barrel. If you bought a 6920 SOCOM and did the same thing, then you'd even have the "truly correct" profile and weight once it was cut down.

Just another idea.

WHSmithIV
22 December 2014, 09:55
Cool deal. I will keep an eye out. Funding will not start for this till 15 Jan 2015. I have seriously thought about grabbing a Colt and just replacing the forend, rear sight, and slapping the RDS on it can calling it good. We are going to go with the correct 14.5" barrel and pin the Flash Hider just so it accurate to what he is using as a duty weapon. I tried to tell him to grab a 16" so later he can change it all around if he wants later on. He said "If I am going to change that much might as well just get a different rifle and keep this one for the purpose it was built" can't argue with that.

We will see how it all goes.

You can't do it unless you want to get a SBR tax stamp for it. The standard A2 flash hider is 1/4" too short to bring a 14.5" barrel to the required 16". You'll have to get a slightly longer flash hider. That being said - ARFcom sells a 14.5" barrel with the flash hider already pinned and welded for $139 I think. It uses a just slightly longer birdcage.

UWone77
22 December 2014, 09:56
LOL..

I did not even want this barrel, but my buddy begged for a trade, and I relented.

Thanks for busting my chops. [BD]

UWone77
22 December 2014, 09:57
You can't do it unless you want to get a SBR tax stamp for it. The standard A2 flash hider is 1/4" too short to bring a 14.5" barrel to the required 16".

You can always get a BCM A2X FH.

WHSmithIV
22 December 2014, 09:59
You can always get a BCM A2X FH.

That's what he'll have to do. He can't just get the 9.99 A2 birdcage though.

UWone77
22 December 2014, 10:00
That's what he'll have to do. He can't just get the 9.99 A2 birdcage though.

I think we're all aware of that. [:D]

WHSmithIV
22 December 2014, 10:09
I think we're all aware of that. [:D]

LOL - I only measured the one I had out of curiosity. I was putting it on a 16" barrel anyway but I got to thinking that it just didn't look like it was 1½" long if someone was to put it on a 14.5" barrel - so I measured it [:)]

Computalotapus
22 December 2014, 10:22
That's what he'll have to do. He can't just get the 9.99 A2 birdcage though.

I am very well aware of the FH length. I already have the parts lined up as far as getting a 14.5" barrel to legal length.

Former11B
22 December 2014, 12:17
My brother has 17 years of service in with the USAF as a Security Forces personnel currently E7 with a line to E8. I think gator has the best option and I know that UW was giving me solid advice. I just hate that in the end I am going to have spare parts laying around that I will never use. Will probably purchase the 6920 then pick up the correct barrel and swap it out.

UWone77 is always right, and I argue with him cause it's not what I want to do but I usually end up doing what he recommends cause it is the right way to do it and in the long haul will be happier with the results. I think his suggestion just needed the tweaking that gatordev gave with the barrel swap to the correct barrel. Can't blame a guy for wanting to build tho can you???

Lol but I was crazy when I suggested the 6920 before. I also don't see the attraction to the CompM4 when it's literally double the price of the PRO with no major functional difference. Hey it is your $$$

Computalotapus
22 December 2014, 12:34
Lol but I was crazy when I suggested the 6920 before. I also don't see the attraction to the CompM4 when it's literally double the price of the PRO with no major functional difference. Hey it is your $$$

LOL no you where not crazy I just didn't want to hear it. I agree with you on the PRO as well. It's not my money its his and I will show him the PRO he is stubborn tho. If he sticks with the CompM4 it will definitely be something I look to pick up used vs new to save him money. In the end it is his decision to make and it is what he wants. We will see what he wants and I will update when/if it happens. Sorry I didn't mean to blow you off, trust me I take into consideration most of the input that people give, ask my wife, I pace back and forth debating the pro's and con's to her and myself mostly. The project will change 24 different times before I start ordering and then change 24 more different times during the ordering process.

Former11B
23 December 2014, 09:30
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/aimpoint-patrol-rifle-optic.html?utm_source=Aimpoint+PRO+Daily+Deal&utm_campaign=Constant+Contact&utm_medium=email

Aimpoint PRO sale, regularly $415, $46 off retail

Computalotapus
23 December 2014, 09:58
Gonna miss that deal. Funds for this build will not be available till 15 January

CK 187
23 December 2014, 10:10
Pfff...that barrel is so pre-GWOT. Where's your grenade launcher flats and fat barrel?


LMAO. I just laughed out loud at my desk when i read that