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FortTom
27 December 2014, 13:23
We all see this, every day if we visit gun forums enough, but something that has had me curious, for many years, in your opinion, what constitutes a "build". Seriously, generally 99% of the time, I'm just assembling a pile of store bought parts.
I've even bought complete uppers, and just acquired and assembled the parts for the lower. Having an engineering background, I can and do most of the machining required on any gun, not just AR's, having the advantage of having friends who own milling machines and lathes. I (We, sometimes a good friend of mine who's eyes and hands are younger helps me) pretty much make jigs and fixtures where required, if we can't just use the common table tools to build one). I "dimple" (actually use a flat end mill and bore a shallow cylinder) my own gas block set screws, and can configure a jig to pin gas blocks if I have to. But it has really occurred to me that I'm not actually "building" anything, I just buy parts and put them where they go. I do use proper tools, such as roll pin punches, starting punches, torque wrenches, an armorers tool, and the right blocks to secure lowers and uppers for work. Probably the most precise thing I have to do is index the barrel 180 degrees from the nub on top of the barrel to properly mill the "dimples" for the gas block. Very easy, but can get tricky at times.

I do see some you tube morons using pliers and counter punches to install roll pins, and other methods that make me cringe,
but all that proves is that anyone with the right camera and knowhow can make a youtube video.

I do not consider myself an armorer by any stretch of the imagination, and sometimes trouble shooting problems prove to be difficult, but I'm lucky enough to know folks who can figure it out if I can't.

So, am I just parsing words here, am I on to something, or what?

Not trying to poke anyone in the eye, just the opposite, I think if anyone replies their perspectives may make a lively and interesting debate.[:D]

So, what do you say?

FT

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 13:36
Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts? I've seen this come up with gunsmiths who want to take offense because they're more concerned about their own egos and feeling the need to validate what they do which is "gunsmithing" AND "building". You also can't quantify something by the tools used because I can easily find mechanics, carpenters, and artist that can do more with basic hand tools then some motards with an entire shop of the nicest equipment. That applies to "Armorers" as well since I come across military "Armorers" all the time and the flat out fact is they often know less than guys who build them in their garage.

MoxyDave
27 December 2014, 13:37
Interesting question. When someone builds a house, do they make their own cement? Do they cut the trees and plane the logs and mine ore for making nails? I don't know that it matters FT, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Take computers for example, there is no way in hell I could create a modern video card from scratch, but I still feel accomplished when I "build" a computer. Perhaps "assemble" is a better term, but really it's just semantics. There is still a level of mastery involved. I can build a far better computer than most folks because I have experience in the field and I've done it a hundred times.

For me it boils down to mastery and professionalism of the craft. Using the proper tools; a torque wrench for example. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed "experts" who never use a torque wrench. Sure in some scenarios it doesn't really matter and an old hat knows roughly how tight things should be from years of experience. But still ... the fucking wrench is in the drawer, why not use it? Proper torque on a muzzle device isn't going to make the gun shoot any better, but it does keep it secure and it leads to consistency over time if you always do it this way.

Fire up your foundry, get your coals up to temp and start forging that lower receiver FT! You've got a lot of work ahead of you [:)]

toolboxluis00200
27 December 2014, 13:41
when i buy the parts and assemble it from the ground up
yes yes i did build that soooooooooooooooooooooo there [BD]

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 13:41
Interesting question. When someone builds a house, do they make their own cement? Do they cut the trees and plane the logs and mine ore for making nails? I don't know that it matters FT, we are all standing on the shoulders of giants. Take computers for example, there is no way in hell I could create a modern video card from scratch, but I still feel accomplished when I "build" a computer. Perhaps "assemble" is a better term, but really it's just semantics. There is still a level of mastery involved. I can build a far better computer than most folks because I have experience in the field and I've done it a hundred times.

For me it boils down to mastery and professionalism of the craft. Using the proper tools; a torque wrench for example. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed "experts" who never use a torque wrench. Sure in some scenarios it doesn't really matter and an old hat knows roughly how tight things should be from years of experience. But still ... the fucking wrench is in the drawer, why not use it? Proper torque on a muzzle device isn't going to make the gun shoot any better, but it does keep it secure and it leads to consistency over time if you always do it this way.

Fire up your foundry, get your coals up to temp and start forging that lower receiver FT! You've got a lot of work ahead of you [:)]

A little late on the trigger but I like the way you think lol...

I do want to say though as much as it will cause a disturbance in the force... there are somethings you really don't need a torque wrench for. Does is hurt to use? Not really, but for some guys who do it a dozen or more times a day every day I can see the reasoning behind not pulling it out all the time.

WHSmithIV
27 December 2014, 13:45
There are those who consider that if they buy a complete lower and a complete upper and simply pin them together that they have 'built' a rifle. That takes a big stretch of imagination to consider that building anything.

When we build a brick wall, we buy bricks, buy mortar, mix the mortar and put all the bricks together. We didn't 'make' the bricks or the mortar. But, we built the wall.

Buying all the parts and then assembling a rifle is what is generally considered to be building the rifle. Like putting together a kids lego kit for them. Who 'built' models when they were kids? Glued all the parts together and built a tank or airplane from a bunch of plastic parts? It's the same concept really as 'building' a rifle. Put all the legos together in a lego kit and you built the lego kit. AR's are pretty much legos for adults.

FortTom
27 December 2014, 14:19
Before this thread goes south, Ordinance and Moxy and whoever else reads this, I sense a bit of animosity, as if I'm not acknowledging your skills as a "builder". Take a deep breath. I also didn't put myself on any pedestal also, and if you really read the post before you saw red, you'll see that. Like I said, I've bought complete uppers, and stuck them on a lower, and that doesn't constitute a build. Nobody, especially me, is arguing that you have to forge your own parts from raw ore, to be a "builder".

So if something this simple strikes a nerve with you, you're ire is certainly misplaced. I asked to start a lively debate, not to discount someone's skill as a builder, nor to elevate mine. If these kinds of posts butt hurt people, then sorry, it wasn't intended. If you think I've discounted your skills, because you didn't actually dig the ore to smelt and forge your own billets, you've read something into the post that wasn't there.

WHsmithIV, did make a point though. there are folks who buy a complete upper and lower, push the pins in and call it a build.

This is definitely not a subject worth getting heated up about, as if it were directed to you personally. Just a question.

FT

Txfilmmaker
27 December 2014, 14:36
Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts? I've seen this come up with gunsmiths who want to take offense because they're more concerned about their own egos and feeling the need to validate what they do which is "gunsmithing" AND "building". You also can't quantify something by the tools used because I can easily find mechanics, carpenters, and artist that can do more with basic hand tools then some motards with an entire shop of the nicest equipment. That applies to "Armorers" as well since I come across military "Armorers" all the time and the flat out fact is they often know less than guys who build them in their garage.

That's great! I used the same contractor analogy on Facebook.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 14:37
Before this thread goes south, Ordinance and Moxy and whoever else reads this, I sense a bit of animosity, as if I'm not acknowledging your skills as a "builder". Take a deep breath. I also didn't put myself on any pedestal also, and if you really read the post before you saw red, you'll see that. Like I said, I've bought complete uppers, and stuck them on a lower, and that doesn't constitute a build. Nobody, especially me, is arguing that you have to forge your own parts from raw ore, to be a "builder".

So if something this simple strikes a nerve with you, you're ire is certainly misplaced. I asked to start a lively debate, not to discount someone's skill as a builder, nor to elevate mine. If these kinds of posts butt hurt people, then sorry, it wasn't intended. If you think I've discounted your skills, because you didn't actually dig the ore to smelt and forge your own billets, you've read something into the post that wasn't there.

WHsmithIV, did make a point though. there are folks who buy a complete upper and lower, push the pins in and call it a build.

This is definitely not a subject worth getting heated up about, as if it were directed to you personally. Just a question.

FT


None of what I said was aimed at you or with animosity. You're reading more into it then what was there unless you're a gunsmith and one that goes around telling everyone else they're just assemblers, lol... ;)

Add: Also take notice that I said with "tools", lol... [BD]

Txfilmmaker
27 December 2014, 14:39
Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


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Ordnance
27 December 2014, 14:41
Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Or the opposite which involves a lot swearing and wondering how you $#@%ed it up so bad... lol

alamo5000
27 December 2014, 14:47
Putting anything together with tools constitutes a "build". I think too many people want to try and invalidate others with the ideology that unless you machine the parts it's not really building. Would you tell a contractor they didn't technically build a house because they didn't mill the lumber or forge the nails? Would you tell a Mechanic they didn't rebuild a carberator because they used a rebuild kit and didn't make the parts?

+1

Manufacturing is one thing, building is yet another. If a person wants to manufacture their own barrel for instance, I say more power to em. This is how innovation happens. But one does not have to manufacture all the parts to 'build' anything.

FortTom
27 December 2014, 15:07
Obviously, there is likely increased satisfaction to doing some of your own machine work for your build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There is also increased anxiety of knowing I can really "F" things up, if I have one of those awwwwwww shiiiiiiiiiiiiit! moments, and admittedly, I have.

FortTom
27 December 2014, 15:34
Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.[:D]

Dark1
27 December 2014, 16:12
Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.[:D]

So you wouldn't consider modifying a car a build then as some one that builds hotrods / Profomance cars I take offense to that. Modifying something is as much of (sometimes even more challenging) a build as building it from a bare frame . A big part of a a build is the knowledge of knowing what parts to use and what works what doesn't and how to put it together.

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 16:21
Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.[:D]

Semantics. You could say you rebuilt it and customized it around your own needs. Honestly this all comes down to semantics and some will want to argue how one thing qualifies but another doesn't yet in the end who really cares except the people that want to validate an opinion for their own sake? Do you feel you built it and do you like it? Yes? Great now shut-up and go shoot it lol... (Not talking about you either FT)

FortTom
27 December 2014, 16:21
So you wouldn't consider modifying a car a build then as some one that builds hotrods / Profomance cars I take offense to that. Modifying something is as much of a build as building it from a bare frame. A big part of a a build is the knowledge of knowing what parts to use and what works what doesn't and how to put it together.

As far as folks taking offense, I think we covered that, and you're late for the party guy. I have a custom '70 Harley that I pulled out of an old garage, mostly in pieces and boxes, so I'm very familiar with what it takes to basically go frame up. I can call it anything I want, it turns heads etc. wins trophies, blah..blah..but the heavy lifting, extensive engine work, and installation of a polished aluminum 6 speed tranny, installing a new front to rear wiring harness, and finally paint, was done by professionals. So, I don't go around saying "I built that". I spread the love where it belongs, I mainly just bolted shit together.

Sorry about the "butt hurt" but I think the rest of us have covered that. It's all subjective. And unless I personally attack you or yours, your "offense" is not my concern.[:D]

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 16:23
As far as folks taking offense, I think we covered that, and you're late for the party guy.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic... lol...

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 16:24
FT... I'm offended that your offended about being offended... lol

FortTom
27 December 2014, 16:26
Semantics. You could say you rebuilt it and customized it around your own needs. Honestly this all comes down to semantics and some will want to argue how one thing qualifies but another doesn't yet in the end who really cares except the people that want to validate an opinion for their own sake? Do you feel you built it and do you like it? Yes? Great now shut-up and go shoot it lol... (Not talking about you either FT)

Yes, this. About as close as quantifying a "build" vs. I worked on it, I guess it all boils down to semantics.[BD][:D]

FortTom
27 December 2014, 16:28
FT... I'm offended that your offended about being offended... lol
As long as you're not offended about my being offended about being offended, then I throw the red flag for a review of that play....jeeze, I'm really getting confused now...[:D] Yep, it's a penalty on the offense.:P

SeattleDude
27 December 2014, 16:29
That is what I would call "Upgraded"



Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.[:D]

CK 187
27 December 2014, 17:02
This reminds me of some of the "built vs bought" threads on the motorcycle forum I admin

FortTom
27 December 2014, 17:12
This reminds me of some of the "built vs bought" threads on the motorcycle forum I admin

Oh Lord, you had to bring that up?[:D] No better way to start a 3,000 thread "cyber fist fight", except to ask "Which oil is the best oil"? Which BTW, usually ends up with 2 or 3 folks being banned.....[:D]

CK 187
27 December 2014, 17:37
Oh Lord, you had to bring that up?[:D] No better way to start a 3,000 thread "cyber fist fight", except to ask "Which oil is the best oil"? Which BTW, usually ends up with 2 or 3 folks being banned.....[:D]


I swing a mean ban hammer

BoilerUp
27 December 2014, 20:47
build
/bild/

verb
1. construct (something, typically something large) by putting parts or material together over a period of time.

synonyms: construct, erect, put up, assemble

I don't understand what there is to "debate".

The genius of the AR platform is precisely that it takes less than an hour to assemble and requires very minimal tooling. All the work is in the machining / manufacturing of the components / piece-parts. Compare that to an HK roller-lock or even an AK, both of which require jigs, welding, and presses. If building ARs doesn't scratch your itch, I suggest picking up an MP5 parts kit and receiver flat. What I find interesting is that when introduced the AR was an expensive rifle because back then machining required...machinists. CNC technology has brought machining costs way down - to the point that a "cheap" AK is now more expensive to "build" than an AR. I've turned into an AR fan-boy largely because I can swap barrels in my garage. The only thing I can't really do on my own is pin a gas block, but my next build will likely use a clamp on anyway, and my last build only cost me $10 to have the barrel supplier (Ballistic Advantage) pin the gas block before he shipped it to me.

FortTom
27 December 2014, 21:08
I don't understand what there is to "debate".

The genius of the AR platform is precisely that it takes less than an hour to assemble and requires very minimal tooling. All the work is in the machining / manufacturing of the components / piece-parts. Compare that to an HK roller-lock or even an AK, both of which require jigs, welding, and presses. If building ARs doesn't scratch your itch, I suggest picking up an MP5 parts kit and receiver flat. What I find interesting is that when introduced the AR was an expensive rifle because back then machining required...machinists. CNC technology has brought machining costs way down - to the point that a "cheap" AK is now more expensive to "build" than an AR. I've turned into an AR fan-boy largely because I can swap barrels in my garage. The only thing I can't really do on my own is pin a gas block, but my next build will likely use a clamp on anyway, and my last build only cost me $10 to have the barrel supplier (Ballistic Advantage) pin the gas block before he shipped it to me.

Thank you for the dictionary definition of the word, build. Four years of college completely down the drain. I should get a refund from UD.[:D] Just kidding.. Seriously, I'm not sure how you're comparing the difficulty level of putting different types of firearms together but I'll address your initial question; "I don't understand what there is to debate". What really inspired me, I've been tempted to before, were other conversations I've either read or heard, basically debating what constitutes building an AR or merely assembling parts. That's it. No deep down ulterior motives, or nefarious intentions to cause folks heartache.[:D]

FT

Ordnance
27 December 2014, 21:27
He said erect... just sayin... lol

WHSmithIV
27 December 2014, 21:51
FT - if you buy a prefab house, all the parts are there. When you assemble the house, did you build it? You'll have had to use a hammer and nails for sure. By the definition you're trying to purport, you would only have assembled the house. You wouldn't have built it. The AR is the same as the prefab house in this context. It's just smaller than a house is all and the tools used to put it together are different.

WHSmithIV
27 December 2014, 22:00
Perhaps this will clarify the question.

The Dictionary defines build as:

build
verb \ˈbild\

1: to make (something) by putting together parts or materials
2: to develop or form (something) gradually
3: to increase the amount of (something)

transitive verb
1: to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole : construct
2: to cause to be constructed
3: to develop according to a systematic plan, by a definite process, or on a particular base

intransitive verb
1: to engage in building
2
a : to progress toward a peak (as of intensity) <build to a climax>
b : to develop in extent <a crowd building>
— build a fire under
: to stimulate to vigorous action
— build into
: to make an integral part of <build quality into the product>
— build on
: to use as a foundation <building on past experience>

Based on the dictionary definition of the verb 'to build' - putting together an AR from the parts constitutes building an AR.

mustangfreek
28 December 2014, 02:40
This thread is a little different then i thought i would be reading..lol..anyways..what constitutes a build for me , pretty easy....money.......lol...........

Thinking i need a 308 build in my collection...so let the saving begin...

rob_s
28 December 2014, 05:45
Calling any assemblage of parts into an AR a "build" is lame. As is the contractor analogy.

I've come to associate both with people that are more interested in Internet picture posting and safe-stuffing than actually shooting the guns.

WHSmithIV
28 December 2014, 06:07
Calling any assemblage of parts into an AR a "build" is lame. As is the contractor analogy.

I've come to associate both with people that are more interested in Internet picture posting and safe-stuffing than actually shooting the guns.

Did you read the dictionary definition of what 'to build' actually means that I posted? I don't 'safe stuff' - shit, I don't even have a safe! Out here where I live a safe isn't necessary at all! My rifles are in racks in my walls and I USE them.

Have you ever 'built' a rifle? If so, how did you do it? Did you forge and machine the receivers? Did you forge the metal for the barrel, then drill it out and rifle it? Did you manually machine the pins and springs?...

If you say that you have 'built' a rifle, then by your own statement you are stating you yourself are lame for saying so.

WHSmithIV
28 December 2014, 06:10
Thinking i need a 308 build in my collection...so let the saving begin...

This I most definitely agree with [:)] A .308 is in my future for sure. I need to retire my Lee Enfield .303 as my hunting rifle. She's getting a bit up there in age.

WHSmithIV
28 December 2014, 06:16
Here's an example of what I consider "not a build".

Recently I came (long story) across a "one time only" exceptional deal on a DPMS .308 Oracle. It was fork over the cash now, or take a pass. Since I could actually have the evidence that it didn't have even a full box of ammo shot through it, and I'd had the little voice in my head telling me I needed an AR-10 for quite a while, I took the bait and bought it.

After playing with it for a while, I found out I didn't like much about it. The crappy 2 piece cheap plastic hand guard, the odd railed block 1/2 inch or so below the rail on the rifle, the crappy stock, the trigger, nothing.

So, the WWW rescued me. Ordered a match grade NiB BCG, a CMC 3.5lb. "flat" trigger, a new gas block, a MI 15" KMR free float hand guard, a Bravo Company MOD 3 .308 version CH, a CRT Stock, an ERGO AR 10 grip from Larue Tactical, a Lantac Dragon muzzle brake, and some MBUS sights. Basically I just swapped out parts. The only real "work" I did, was that the MI gas block that DPMS promised would be a perfect replacement, didn't, and I had to mill in the dimples to make it work.

I really don't consider that a build, just me swapping out some parts. A "modification" if you will. I wasn't quite sure, but I thought I heard a voice from far away, from a big white house in D.C. yell out, "YOU DIDN"T BUILD THAT"!!!..hmmm now I'm confused as to what to call it, except for my AR-10.[:D]

I agree FT - I wouldn't consider it a build myself either if I had done it. A 'rebuild' maybe, but not a build. This applies also to changing an old car to a hot rod that has been mentioned. The car was 'rebuilt' into a hot rod.

Dark1
28 December 2014, 06:46
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic... lol...

Yup it was a play on him complaining about people not liking his "I am better than you because I have a Bridgeport" reply

BoilerUp
28 December 2014, 07:25
I guess my post was incomplete. I should have included this, too:


syn·o·nym
/ˈsinəˌnim/

noun
a word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language

"build" and "assemble" mean the exact same thing. Literally.

It just so happens that ARs are ridiculously easy to "build" so it does make it hard for people with actual machining / gunsmithing skills to show off their talents. If I actually had such talents, I'd probably be building HK roller-locks from flats or at least building all my ARs from 80% lowers. But, I have no such talents which is why I love the AR. But I also think this is why there is such an industry around aftermarket components for the AR: the people with actual machining / gunsmithing skills turned their attention to making replacement parts that improve the platform (e.g., Bill Geissele) and sell them to guys like me who can only "build" ARs.

GOST
28 December 2014, 07:56
Calling any assemblage of parts into an AR a "build" is lame. As is the contractor analogy.

I've come to associate both with people that are more interested in Internet picture posting and safe-stuffing than actually shooting the guns.

Not to put words in Rob's mouth but I think he's just saying does it really matter whether or not it's a build? Personally I don't care if someone calls it a build, an upgrade or an assembled group of parts. Does it matter if a kid says look what I assembled out of Legos, or do they need to say look what I built?

P.S. I'm not into safe stuffing cause I don't have the revenue, but I do like internet pictures.

FortTom
28 December 2014, 08:51
FT - if you buy a prefab house, all the parts are there. When you assemble the house, did you build it? You'll have had to use a hammer and nails for sure. By the definition you're trying to purport, you would only have assembled the house. You wouldn't have built it. The AR is the same as the prefab house in this context. It's just smaller than a house is all and the tools used to put it together are different.
Learn to read, Will. I haven't tried to purport shit. I just asked a question.

FortTom
28 December 2014, 09:00
Yup it was a play on him complaining about people not liking his "I am better than you because I have a Bridgeport" reply
Hey asshat, take a reading comprehension course, then please go back and point out, where in this thread I said "I am better than you because I have a Bridgeport". Show me where I said I have a Bridgeport. I have access to one. Want to discuss it? My PM box is open for business. Loser.

FT

Ordnance
28 December 2014, 09:01
Calling any assemblage of parts into an AR a "build" is lame. As is the contractor analogy.

I've come to associate both with people that are more interested in Internet picture posting and safe-stuffing than actually shooting the guns.

And there is the very attitude I mentioned earlier. I find it ironic that you're commenting on a forum that essentially is filled with industry photographers and people who enjoy photography yet you want to belittle them. There's a word for that it's called hypocrisy. There's nothing lame about the contractor analogy, but what is lame is someone who offers no valid counterpoint much like a previous discussion where you popped up to essentially abase others here as being nothing more than internet junkies who don't shoot. That's lame...

jymbeux
28 December 2014, 09:11
I don't care what it's called but taking a few boxes of parts and spending time putting it all together yourself is fun and a great way to learn more about the platform. Hand picking components and tailoring the rifle to your goals results in a rifle that isn't almost perfect for you, it is perfect for you.

Call it what you want - that's just semantics in my book.

GOST
28 December 2014, 09:13
I don't care what it's called but taking a few boxes of parts and spending time putting it all together yourself is fun and a great way to learn more about the platform. Hand picking components and tailoring the rifle to your goals results in a rifle that isn't almost perfect for you, it is perfect for you.

Call it what you want - that's just semantics in my book.
Very well put, with no name calling.

FortTom
28 December 2014, 09:17
And there is the very attitude I mentioned earlier. I find it ironic that you're commenting on a forum that essentially is filled with industry photographers and people who enjoy photography yet you want to belittle them. There's a word for that it's called hypocrisy. There's nothing lame about the contractor analogy, but what is lame is someone who offers no valid counterpoint much like a previous discussion where you popped up to essentially abase others here as being nothing more than internet junkies who don't shoot. That's lame... Hey ordnance.... no need to get mad. I don't agree with Rob_S, but this thread is going south pretty quickly and people are getting rubbed the wrong way. it (this thread) started with an honest and simple question, that solicited responses, not hurling insults or being insulted. I had one asshat here already tell me he was responding to where I said "I was better than everybody because I have a Bridgeport". Neither is true, and there is no such post on here. Just an asshat who's probably just here for the GAW and will be gone soon. (just my guess).

Rob_S, you're an intelligent guy. I read it in your posts, and once in a while on your blog, TYV. You can post an opinion without calling folks names. Leave that to folks who post false information as in the above paragraph.

Let's not have Rich shut this down, because folks can't be intellectually honest or civil. There's more depth to the replies (well for the most part), than I thought there would be, except for "butt hurt" guy and his imaginary Bridgeport conjecture.[:D] Also there is nothing personal here, such as political or theological discussions, so no one should have to put up with insults, or get their feathers ruffled.

I think the whole thing is based on perspective. And I enjoy reading diversified perspectives, as we all should.[:)]

Ordnance
28 December 2014, 09:29
Hey ordnance.... no need to get mad. I don't agree with Rob_S, but this thread is going south pretty quickly and people are getting rubbed the wrong way. it (this thread) started with an honest and simple question, that solicited responses, not hurling insults or being insulted. I had one asshat here already tell me he was responding to where I said "I was better than everybody because I have a Bridgeport". Neither is true, and there is no such post on here. Just an asshat who's probably just here for the GAW and will be gone soon. (just my guess).

Rob_S, you're an intelligent guy. I read it in your posts, and once in a while on your blog, TYV. You can post an opinion without calling folks names. Leave that to folks who post false information as in the above paragraph.

Let's not have Rich shut this down, because folks can't be intellectually honest or civil. There's more depth to the replies (well for the most part), than I thought there would be, except for "butt hurt" guy and his imaginary Bridgeport conjecture.[:D] Also there is nothing personal here, such as political or theological discussions, so no one should have to put up with insults, or get their feathers ruffled.

I think the whole thing is based on perspective. And I enjoy reading diversified perspectives, as we all should.[:)]

FT as I was trying to lighten the mood earlier, but I'm newer here and yet this is the second time Rob has shown up to impart his wisdom upon us which is less than stellar. I'm not offended but annoyed since guys like that give other people in the industry a bad image IMO. This is me being blunt when people who think their God's gift to shooting come on-line to talk trash about others on-line. I have zero tolerance for hypocrites.

FortTom
28 December 2014, 09:36
FT as I was trying to lighten the mood earlier, but I'm newer here and yet this is the second time Rob has shown up to impart his wisdom upon us which is less than stellar. I'm not offended but annoyed since guys like that give other people in the industry a bad image IMO. This is me being blunt when people who think their God's gift to shooting come on-line to talk trash about others on-line. I have zero tolerance for hypocrites.

Just don't sweat it. You're opinion has been heard and is respected at least as much as anyone else's.[:)]

Gaspipeshooter
28 December 2014, 09:36
From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/build

"to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole"

I think it's pretty clear from the above definition that is what most of us do with respect to a "build". We acquire a pile of parts and unite them into an AR rifle/pistol/whatever. Taking a completely assembled upper and pinning it to a completely assembled lower is a stretch for "building" a gun, as I interpret the definition of building.

Personally, as a former homebuilder, remodeling contractor, and high end cabinetry and woodworking contractor, I can appreciate the house building analogy. Building homes, additions, and cabinetry projects takes a little more skill than assembling the parts of a typical AR rifle. Doing fine cabinetry, finish carpentry is a craft that requires skills a lot of folks simply do not have. Building an AR is not really difficult, and doesn't take a lot of intelligence or mad skills. There is a huge difference between taking the raw materials that have to be cut, sanded, planed, fit, etc. to create cabinets, a built in entertainment center, or wall of book shelves, and assembling a pre-fab kit from some place like IKEA or Sauder Woodworking. I would equate building an AR to the latter; you are simply taking finished parts manufactured to a pre-set size/specification, and assembling them into a unit.

Ordnance
28 December 2014, 09:48
From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/build

"to form by ordering and uniting materials by gradual means into a composite whole"

I think it's pretty clear from the above definition that is what most of us do with respect to a "build". We acquire a pile of parts and unite them into an AR rifle/pistol/whatever. Taking a completely assembled upper and pinning it to a completely assembled lower is a stretch for "building" a gun, as I interpret the definition of building.

Personally, as a former homebuilder, remodeling contractor, and high end cabinetry and woodworking contractor, I can appreciate the house building analogy. Building homes, additions, and cabinetry projects takes a little more skill than assembling the parts of a typical AR rifle. Doing fine cabinetry, finish carpentry is a craft that requires skills a lot of folks simply do not have. Building an AR is not really difficult, and doesn't take a lot of intelligence or mad skills. There is a huge difference between taking the raw materials that have to be cut, sanded, planed, fit, etc. to create cabinets, a built in entertainment center, or wall of book shelves, and assembling a pre-fab kit from some place like IKEA or Sauder Woodworking. I would equate building an AR to the latter; you are simply taking finished parts manufactured to a pre-set size/specification, and assembling them into a unit.

You're talking about finish carpentry and cabinetry details which require more exacting standards than say a Quadrant home with even prefabbed walls and trusses. It's like comparing a match rifle builder who contours, chambers, headspaces, etc to a guy who subs out those tasks to someone else who's more suited for it much like a finish carpenter, cabinet maker, or painter. Doesn't change the fact that I would hope you wouldn't tell the pick-up carpenters on-site they're just assemblers because frankly I know guys who are GREAT finish carpenters but they couldn't frame a house if their life depended on it even with prefab. Or the cabinet makers who may know how to make a great cabinet but couldn't paint like someone who's sole profession was such.

UWone77
28 December 2014, 09:52
Why is this even a thread and people arguing semantics?

Build or Assembly, call it what you want, in the end you end up with the same thing. An AR15.

I think we're done here.