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alamo5000
28 December 2014, 19:53
I recently got the latest version of the Magpul AFG for Christmas.... It was quickly installed and I have to say that I really like it. For me the most comfortable way is to put my left pointer finger around that front nub. I did find one issue though... installing that in certain positions causes one or the other of those two t-nuts to hit my gas block. It won't let the T nut rotate into a locked position.

I think this is easy to fix...with a small piece of fine grit sand paper on the top of that 25 cent t-nut and it can be problem solved.

That though has me thinking about proper placement of that type of grip and proper shooting technique. Should I mount the grip forward so that I my left arm is a bit more straight or should I mount it a bit more back where my left arm is bent slightly? Or should I try something in the middle? I've seen people shoot where they hold the mag well and I've seen people way more stretched out with their left arm.

For me, none of those positions are uncomfortable although holding the mag well is the least comfortable position. It feels kind of awkward. As for sheer comfort I find a combination of the second click on my buffer tube with a grip further out toward the front. It gives me the right eye relief and comfort.

So here is the question to the forum what is your shooting position? Is there a more 'right way' or is it merely a matter of preference?

What about your feet? Do you try to keep them shoulder width apart and square or is one or the other a 'forward foot'?

Any ideas or opinions? I am interested to hear what other people are doing and if there is some kind of fancy tactical reason to do it one way vs another? What are your ideas and/or professional opinions?

JHoward
28 December 2014, 20:03
I hold as far forward as is comfortable, in a C-clamp? style grip. Right up by the FSB on a carbine, behind the FSB on a mid...

Some people do the over-exaggerated over-hand Christ Costa style grip.... If it works for them, that's cool.

Well, I actually have a video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpwB6v_q-6Q

Here's my little bro, a little more of an old-school grip and support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys2Ec_qIMro

GOST
28 December 2014, 20:05
My feet are usually square and shoulder width apart for both handguns and rifles. For my AR's I use stubby VFG's, I have part of my hand of the VFG with my thumb over bore. I like this grip cause I can apply back pressure and hold the muzzle a little more steady during rapid fire. This grip gives me about the same wrist angle as those who use an AFG without adding extra girth to the handguard. I try to hold as far forward as possible without bringing my shoulder into my field of view. If you reach to far forward your shoulder can hamper your vision. I've tried handstops but have never been able to do as well with them.

GOST
28 December 2014, 20:18
I've heard some say to square up because if you're shot it lowers the possibility of the bullet penetrating multiple organs. I don't know why I do it, I blame it on my childhood.

alamo5000
28 December 2014, 20:53
On a side note I am going to contact Magpul. I am disappointed that I am having to grind their part to make it fit a standard rifle with at minimum mil spec components...

Just sayin'...venting... If anyone has contacts at Magpul...

OK... back to the subject...

camomike
28 December 2014, 21:06
Depends on the rifle I'm shooting. One rifle(DMR) I shoot palm flat 4 inches in front of the magwell, chicken wing with my trigger arm, my torso rotated slightly feet in an L bracket shape about shoulder width.

My 16" rifles I tend to square off, feet shoulder width apart. The carbine I hold the magwell with my lead hand. The 12" rail I tend to hold squared feet, arm straight, thumb over rail.

alamo5000
28 December 2014, 22:08
My feet are usually square and shoulder width apart for both handguns and rifles. For my AR's I use stubby VFG's, I have part of my hand of the VFG with my thumb over bore. I like this grip cause I can apply back pressure and hold the muzzle a little more steady during rapid fire. This grip gives me about the same wrist angle as those who use an AFG without adding extra girth to the handguard. I try to hold as far forward as possible without bringing my shoulder into my field of view. If you reach to far forward your shoulder can hamper your vision. I've tried handstops but have never been able to do as well with them.

I FINALLY got done rubbing the crap out of that little T nut on a whet stone... it took me over an hour. I should have used a dremmel but I didn't want to over do it. I had to take quite a bit off to make the AFG fit. Without my modification I had to physically flex my barrel to install the AFG and then when I let it go the barrel rested on the T nut in flexed position... not cool. Magpul really needs to come up with a solution here. I had to shave down the T nut and the allen screw both. The screw was too long and the nut was too thick....

But as for my grip... the way I have it set up is my AFG is far forward and if I put my pointer finger around the front nub of the foregrip and my thumb over the top it feels pretty comfortable. I will test it out.

I have a hand stop as well, but I find it pretty uncomfortable. I haven't really 'gotten it' yet when it comes to those, even though I own one.

As for pistols, I did an experiment not too long ago... maybe a month or so ago. I found myself at a fun range, er gun range...I usually don't pay to shoot but in this case I did... I wanted to have a controlled test. I tried shooting pistols with different stances and different grips. Merely by moving one foot slightly back to where I wasn't 'square' there was a noticeable difference in my shot groups. With my feet square my shot groups were substantially better.

I tried the experiment with 5 different pistols and with all 5 it had the same results. The lesson? For me, square my feet to the target. It didn't matter if I shot one handed or two... my feet made the difference in my groups.

As for a rifle, I don't know. I will have to try it out and find out...

alamo5000
28 December 2014, 22:16
Depends on the rifle I'm shooting. One rifle(DMR) I shoot palm flat 4 inches in front of the magwell, chicken wing with my trigger arm, my torso rotated slightly feet in an L bracket shape about shoulder width.

My 16" rifles I tend to square off, feet shoulder width apart. The carbine I hold the magwell with my lead hand. The 12" rail I tend to hold squared feet, arm straight, thumb over rail.

Yes it definitely depends on what you are shooting. I went and shot a friend's MP5 and his MP40 (he has more money than he knows what to do with so he has one of each)...with those I adopted a completely different stance than I am trying out on my AR. I am going to test things out with the AR, but with those H&K rifles I had to compensate for the fully auto rate of fire. The recoil isn't bad.... hell it was 9mm and .40 cal but still...I was putting the butt stock more center frame and I was leaning into the shots more.

Too bad I don't own those so I can perfect my H&K techniques :)

alamo5000
28 December 2014, 22:27
Some people do the over-exaggerated over-hand Christ Costa style grip.... If it works for them, that's cool.

You mean like this? LOL

https://www_thebangswitch.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/question-time-9.jpg


What I am going to try out is not quite that far... my left thumb print rests on the top of my flat top and my left pointer finger is around the front of the AFG...My left arm also isn't completely straight either. Even though it's far forward it's still bent a little. This part I will play around with as to exactly how far forward I need to go with the grip.

I am not sure which if any technique is considered 'correct' or 'more effective'...

alamo5000
28 December 2014, 22:32
For my AR's I use stubby VFG's

I have a stubby VFG on my AK... The furniture got swapped out so it does have rails on it LOL. I've never really tried taking a methodical approach to that gun though... to some degree yes, but not like I have with others....at least not yet. I did site it in and get to where I can hit something with it... I added a ghost ring to the back and figured out it's quirks to some degree... but not much other than that.

At least I know the right aim point... I can hit decent for an AK at 100 yards with that one.

WHSmithIV
28 December 2014, 23:36
On a side note I am going to contact Magpul. I am disappointed that I am having to grind their part to make it fit a standard rifle with at minimum mil spec components...

Just sayin'...venting... If anyone has contacts at Magpul...

OK... back to the subject...


Just go to Magpul's web page and send them a contact message. they'll get back to you in within a couple days. I did that for the missing set screw I needed and they got back to me and simply sent it to me.

DutyUse
29 December 2014, 00:30
For rifles I put my left foot slightly ahead of my right, take up an athletic stance (think getting low if you were to be tackled) with some weight on the balls of my feet but not overexerted. I pull the rifle tight against the inside of my pec and roll my shoulder in seemingly trapping the buttstock, and press my cheek aggressively against the stock. My fire control hand goes as high on the backstrap of the pistol grip as possible (thats why I prefer the UCWRG). I use a vtac sling so i pull that in tight and wrap it around my left bicep close to my body. My left hand goes about 8" out on the rail where I'm comfortable and not overextended with my thumb running down the center of the pic rail and basically pointing at my target. I use a small handstop as leverage to pull back on with the rest of my left hand.

That's about it...oh and the Lantac Dragon, Blue Sprinco and H1 buffer help aswell ;)

Pistol is to hard to type. Just buy some rounds and do some 3-4 shot burns and you'll get the hang of it

GOST
29 December 2014, 02:19
You mean like this? LOL

https://www_thebangswitch.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/question-time-9.jpg


What I am going to try out is not quite that far... my left thumb print rests on the top of my flat top and my left pointer finger is around the front of the AFG...My left arm also isn't completely straight either. Even though it's far forward it's still bent a little. This part I will play around with as to exactly how far forward I need to go with the grip.

I am not sure which if any technique is considered 'correct' or 'more effective'...
I know reaching out this far has become very popular and does a very good job at keeping the muzzle steady. But the trade off is if you look at the position of his left arm it partially obstructs his view.

I prefer a grip similar to this.
http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/6/26966/7304421/IMG_3155-vi.jpg
His left arm is in a better position not obstructing his view from the left. But then again I guess it's what works best for you. I've seen some people hold their rifles in some weird positions and shoot lights out.

DutyUse
29 December 2014, 03:08
We shoot very similarly then Gost, you just did a better job of explaining. These were quick 6am photos so no laughing but this is basically my grip, and unobstructed view through a RDS.

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u404/FamilyFord23/pew%20pew/a42d8666-ac2a-43e9-951e-01327ba9c3c0_zpsed47cc47.jpg

http://i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u404/FamilyFord23/pew%20pew/RDSthrugrip_zps741146de.jpg

I just tossed my PA rd onto my noveske rail for demo, with a handstop it would be more ergonomically correct because I refrence my grip off of one.

But hey what works for me, might be terrible for others. Best advice, dry fire until your sick of it and then dry fire some more ;)

CarbonScoring
29 December 2014, 03:22
I shoot pretty much the same as DutyUse and GOST. My support thumb runs along the rail, pointing at the target at about the 45° mark. The rest of my support hand sits right at the transition between rail and stubby vertical grip. My feet are almost squared up, with the support side foot slightly forward and knees slightly bent.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 03:44
I know reaching out this far has become very popular and does a very good job at keeping the muzzle steady. But the trade off is if you look at the position of his left arm it partially obstructs his view.

I prefer a grip similar to this.
http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/6/26966/7304421/IMG_3155-vi.jpg
His left arm is in a better position not obstructing his view from the left. But then again I guess it's what works best for you. I've seen some people hold their rifles in some weird positions and shoot lights out.

That looks more like what i am doing now....in fact really close.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 03:50
I shoot pretty much the same as DutyUse and GOST. My support thumb runs along the rail, pointing at the target at about the 45° mark. The rest of my support hand sits right at the transition between rail and stubby vertical grip. My feet are almost squared up, with the support side foot slightly forward and knees slightly bent.

I am going to try some different things. I will try laying my thumb beside the upper rail instead of on top of it...and do I want my grip all the way forward or a couple of notches back... just have to do some trial and error...

DutyUse
29 December 2014, 03:51
Then your golden. Honestly everyone has to find what works for them and the only way to get proficient is just to get out and do it.

One of my buddies does the arf bashing magwell grip, but after you saw him shoot you wouldn't question it...

GOST
29 December 2014, 04:26
Unlike in the pic my grip is thumb over bore.

http://images45.fotki.com/v1451/photos/6/26966/7304421/IMG_3155-vi.jpg

DutyUse
29 December 2014, 04:39
My thumb placement is often dictated by what type of light/mount the rifle has. As long as you have a somewhat downward "push" on the top portion of the rail you can fire slightly more fast and still maintain accuracy

CK 187
29 December 2014, 04:46
Typically squared up in a "mild" C clamp style but nothing overly exaggerated like Costa. I can't have my forward elbow as high and locked out as he tries to teach

http://beforeitsnews.com/mediadrop/uploads/2014/08/c76df2078474bc8e2be426af8c48a1079adf6dc4.jpg



Shooting off hand at distance though, I always go bladed and into a modified olympic style using my support elbow to frame up against my torso

https://i0.wp.com/www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Biathlon+Day+12+Yfarcw2ahCBl.jpg

CarbonScoring
29 December 2014, 04:59
I am going to try some different things. I will try laying my thumb beside the upper rail instead of on top of it...and do I want my grip all the way forward or a couple of notches back... just have to do some trial and error...

For me, keeping my thumb pointing forward rather than over the top of the handguard, my support hand is in virtually the same position as when shooting a pistol.

I also have a slight bend to my elbow, maybe 15-20°. In my opinion (for what that's worth) if you lock out your support arm elbow (arm fully extended), all of the support comes from your shoulder. With the elbow slightly bent you are able to use the muscles all along your arm. My thinking in this comes from a martial art I've been studying for the last decade (iaido, a Japanese sword art). You can make your arm un-bendable, but once you lock the elbow (slightly hyper-extend it), you put unwanted pressure on the joint which can cause damage, and as I mentioned before, you limit the muscles you can use to support the rifle.

But it all comes down to what you find to be more comfortable for you. Also, something may feel good for 10 seconds, but over an extended period of time, it may wear you out. If you plan on shooting for a long time (i.e. long training courses) keep in mind that you don't want to fatigue yourself.

CK 187
29 December 2014, 05:04
My thinking in this comes from a martial art I've been studying for the last decade (iaido, a Japanese sword art). You can make your arm un-bendable, but once you lock the elbow (slightly hyper-extend it), you put unwanted pressure on the joint which can cause damage, and as I mentioned before, you limit the muscles you can use to support the rifle.

Same thinking i use for the locked elbow. Undue joint stress, trouble transitioning after extended periods, ......

akersc
29 December 2014, 06:20
Well I was doing it all wrong until Comp and a very nice SWAT officer showed me the way. I actually found I can hit the broad side of a barn now 😉


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 06:51
Shooting off hand at distance though, I always go bladed and into a modified olympic style using my support elbow to frame up against my torso

https://i0.wp.com/www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Biathlon+Day+12+Yfarcw2ahCBl.jpg


I have done this too. Its one of my go to stances. Just feels natural and stable I've also shot sitting indian style.

I've never ran a course or anything like that but I want to try.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 07:20
Just go to Magpul's web page and send them a contact message. they'll get back to you in within a couple days. I did that for the missing set screw I needed and they got back to me and simply sent it to me.


I emailed them so we will have to wait and see. The problem isn't as simple as sending a replacement nut ad screw. They have to re engineer something at least because it takes the whole front 6 to 8 inches of the rail completely out of play.

Gaspipeshooter
29 December 2014, 08:11
I emailed them so we will have to wait and see. The problem isn't as simple as sending a replacement nut ad screw. They have to re engineer something at least because it takes the whole front 6 to 8 inches of the rail completely out of play.

Sounds like a result of a slim handguard with not much clearance between it and the gas block. Since I'm fairly certain the nuts are pumped out by the bazillions, they may "suggest" a different gas block, handguard, or modification like you already did.

SINNER
29 December 2014, 08:23
Why would Magpul have anything to do with handguard to gas block clearance? Has nothing to do with their product. If the nut is standard spec any accessory you add in that location would cause the same issue would it not?

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 08:42
Why would Magpul have anything to do with handguard to gas block clearance? Has nothing to do with their product. If the nut is standard spec any accessory you add in that location would cause the same issue would it not?

M lok...even the rails are made to magpuls spec...

There can be a couple thing happen... Magpul can provide new t nuts and shorter screws for the people with slim rails. Its not like there are any shortage of slim rails out there and magpul know full well that people were going to put accessories on the bottom of the hand guard be it a hand grip or a rail section or whatever.

So magpul can either change their screw and t nut or they can try to dictate to every manufacturer out there that they change their product. All they need to provide is just one t nut and one screw that is shorter and thinner.

The fact is magpul made a 25 cent part that makes things not compatible.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 08:48
Sounds like a result of a slim handguard with not much clearance between it and the gas block. Since I'm fairly certain the nuts are pumped out by the bazillions, they may "suggest" a different gas block, handguard, or modification like you already did.

The fix is relatively easy. I thinned mine out in about an hour so its for sure fixable. I will abandon all things magpul before I switch my gas block over a 25 cent part.

All they need to do for a fix is to churn out a new lot of thinner nuts and shorter screws and just mix and match them in the bag or box when they sell an accessory. Problem solved.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 09:19
I don't want to sound like I'm dogging on magpul too much but they aren't big enough to tell everyone not to use slim rails or force people to buy new gas blocks...but the thing is all m lok products are made under magpul license...its all pretty dumb over such a small part. If I had used a dremmel or some other tool it would be a 5 minute mod...but I did it by hand....

But I say let them have a chance to respond before we go off in it...

CarbonScoring
29 December 2014, 09:53
Not sure what rail you're using (I may have missed it if you mentioned it), but I ran into the same issue with a 10" SLR Lite rail. The place I wanted to put a rail section to add a VFG wouldn't work because of the gas block. I just moved it back a spot. Not where I really wanted it, but it worked OK.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 10:42
Its a 14" SLR solo lite.... All I had to do was grind down only one of the nuts and the tip of the screw. I probably took 1mm off the screw and 1/2 a mm off the nut and now I can put it wherever I want. I just have to put the ground down one on the gas block end and its fine so far and has a hair of clearance.

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 10:47
With mine though because of what it is unless there is a mod the whole thing had to be mounted entirely behind the gas block...its working now but its just one of those things...

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 11:04
Why would Magpul have anything to do with handguard to gas block clearance? Has nothing to do with their product. If the nut is standard spec any accessory you add in that location would cause the same issue would it not?

M lok is brand new. Rainier Arms isn't out of spec. The handguard isn't out of spec. Magpul just introduced a new product that still has bugs in it. The way I see it everyone else is in spec and magpul just didn't think through a minor detail of a new product. Anyway the thread is kind of derailed some lol. I really was wondering everyones shooting stances LOL!

CarbonScoring
29 December 2014, 18:50
Magpul introduced a form factor for mounting. It's the rail manufacturer's job to make sure that when it's implemented it works. SLR in our case made a rail that was too skinny. This is in no way Magpul's fault.

DutyUse
29 December 2014, 18:54
This is the reason why I buy nothing but tube style rails... NSR, KMR, ALG etc... Suits my shooting style .. and my girl sized hands 0.o

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 19:14
Magpul introduced a form factor for mounting. It's the rail manufacturer's job to make sure that when it's implemented it works. SLR in our case made a rail that was too skinny. This is in no way Magpul's fault.

Actually I got an email from Magpul asking for more information...but I did some measuring and calculations and with the standard screws and T nuts as supplied any rail with an inner diameter of less than 1.45" would have the same problem.

SLR Rifleworks and Geiselle are both well under that mark for their advertised ID's. 1.3 and 1.35" respectively. It should also be noted that I am using Rainier Arm's low profile match gas block as well.

I am emailing info back and forth with Magpul so I will report back as we go.

Ordnance
29 December 2014, 19:31
I'm late to the party and I don't have time to read all 3 pages, but IMO... The reason people started squaring up has to do with body armor. Body armor is designed to best stop penetration from direct hits and not glancing blows which can still result in injury. Plus with body armor most of your protective surface area is in the front and back not the sides which is minimal with cummerbunds. From an EMT's perspective standing squarely is actually NOT going to reduce organ injury but more likely to further it if you're not wearing body armor since penetration would be deeper and you expose ALL the organs instead of just a few. If you're not wearing armor then standing at a sideways stance will lessen the amount of available surface as a target, and the bullet would have to penetrate through the arm tissue and bone before entering the chest or abdominal cavity. Everything else IMO should be whatever helps the shooter perform the best. If it was already said then I apologize but my time is limited...

alamo5000
29 December 2014, 19:41
I'm late to the party and I don't have time to read all 3 pages.

It's ok you don't need to read all three pages... it has digressed and it is partially my fault.

Stone
4 January 2015, 00:00
Sparring stance.