Need diagnostic help; unfired cartridge "sticking" in chamber

[Simi-audamadik]

I recently finished assembling my new 16" build. I'm using a Joe Bob Outfitters Spartan 15 billet upper and lower, WMD bolt carrier group (the polished NiB setup), a Radical Firearms 16" Government contour barrel (1:7), and a standard charging handle. I took it to the range this past weekend for the first time. I set it up on a bipod, pulled the charging handle rearward, and when I pulled the trigger, a distinct "click"; NO BANG! Pulled the charging handle back, a round came out of the chamber. I examined it, no strike mark on primer. The rifle appeared to be in battery, pulled the trigger again, "click." This time, I had to bang the butt on the table while trying to move the charging handle to the rear to get the live round out. The round finally comes out, no strike mark and no marks on the side of the brass. The only marks were on the case head from the extractor. Third round, same as the second, bang butt on table to get live round out after click. I swapped the BCG with the Radical Firearms NiB group from my pistol and the rifle went bang every time.

Tonight, I put the WMD BCG into my pistol and pulled the charging handle back. A round went in the chamber and the BCG appeared to be in battery; can't test fire cause I'm at work. I pulled the charging handle back, live round comes out and fresh one goes in. I go to do it again, and the bolt won't come rearward. I had to bang the butt on the bumper to get the charging handle to release and kick out the live round. UGH!! The test tonight was with different ammo; Hornady TAP. The ammo from Saturday was a generic white box (not Winchester) and I don't remember if there was even a brand on it. Everything is lubed up good with Cherry Balmz Black Rifle Balmz. I tried the WMD BCG in my pistol on Saturday and it went click in the pistol as well. I've taken the BCG apart and it is put together correctly, lubed, and the firing pin seems to protrude through the bolt face as far as the firing pin in my Radical BCG. I've made sure there is nothing obstructing the bolt face or lodged in it. I haven't been around the AR platform long enough to do a diagnotic per se, it just seems to be an issue with the WMD BCG. Anyone else ever have this problem? Any suggestions? (other than return the BCG) Is it simply a break in problem? I'm lost and starting to get frustrated. TIA for any help/suggestions.

Later!

Simi

[Naytwan]

Any photos of the bolt and carrier?

[Simi-audamadik]

Unfortunately, at this time, no. Would need to do that when i get off work.

Later!

Simi

[WHSmithIV]

Do you have a go/no go head space gauge? Since the bolt from the pistol is working fine, this sure sounds like a problem with the bolt or BCG assembly. I recommend you contact WMD and let them know. Most likely they'll have you send the BCG back to them so they can check it and if they find something wrong, they will certainly replace it.

[Deadwing]

Will beat me to it. Sounds like a headspace issue. If the bolt is out of spec enough, it won't go fully in to battery, hence not even a light primer strike. I'd swap the bolt from once carrier in to the other, just to confirm it's the bolt not the carrier. I have had an out of spec carrier (cam track was cut wrong) where no matter what bolt i put in it, it would not go fully in to battery and required mortaring the gun to get the BCG un-stuck.

[Simi-audamadik]

Thanks guys. Bout to leave work and will try that when I get home.

Later!

Simi

[Simi-audamadik]

Woohoo! The bolt must be the problem. Swaped them and the WMD BCG worked like a champ on a manual cycle and the sticking started with the Radical BCG. So, I guess now it's time to call WMD. THANKS GUYS!

Later!

Simi

[Former11B]

Woohoo! The bolt must be the problem. Swaped them and the WMD BCG worked like a champ on a manual cycle and the sticking started with the Radical BCG. So, I guess now it's time to call WMD. THANKS GUYS!

Later!

Simi

Can't test fire at work??? Are they against an innocent Desk Pop???


Kidding, but I'd still find someone who can check the headspace with some gauges. The other bolt may work but it might be squeaking by the very limit of tolerances

[Gaspipeshooter]

This might seem like a "so obvious it's dumb" piece of advice, but you might also want to check to make sure your ammo and chamber are compatible. A .223 chambered barrel and 5.56 ammo I've seen that same issue.

[rob_s]

I have never heard of any of those companies, and therefore attribute the issue to same.

[UWone77]

I have never heard of any of those companies, and therefore attribute the issue to same.

There is a lot of be said about this statement.

Did you generously lube? Check headspace and magazines?

[Former11B]

I've heard OF them but not ABOUT them, which I think is a big difference

[DutyUse]

WMD were the guys that splintered off Failzero to start their own NiB company if my memory serves me. No experience with their products however.

[six8]

WMD were the guys that splintered off Failzero to start their own NiB company if my memory serves me. No experience with their products however.

Yup


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Simi-audamadik]

Can't test fire at work??? Are they against an innocent Desk Pop???

In my previous experience, most LEO command staff are slightly narrow minded when it comes to bullet holes in the ceiling, floor, or furniture; especially since we're in temp housing due to construction. Now, if I'd've had my suppressor, there are safe places nearby that could've handled said test fire and nobody would've been the wiser.

Ammo - the stuff I was using Saturday was marked 5.56. The Hornady TAP I was using last night is marked .223. The problem occurred with both.
Mags - I used at least two different PMAGs.
Lube - both BCGs were well lubed with Cherry Balmz Black Rifle grease.

I have not personally checked the headspace; I do not possess the necessary tools. However, my pistol was "assembled" by the guys at Radical Firearms and they used go/no go guages on it. My rifle was "assembled" by the same people. I did not specifically ask, but assumed they used the guages on it as well.

I spoke with one of the guys from WMD this morning. He suggested getting the headspace checked and that the bolt might need to be "fitted" to the barrel. They will check the headspace and perform any needed gunsmithing for $35 if I ship my whole upper to them. There was no indication that a bolt could be done under warranty and some indication that it may not solve the problem. Thanks for the input.

Later!

Simi

[Iraqgunz]

I see lots of wrong information here. If someone is using Go/ No Go gages for a 5.56 chamber that is wrong. Unless they specifically had correct 5.56 gages made for that purpose. The military uses a FIELD gage and it is the only gage I use.

I have seen some Radical Firearms barrels that had incorrect gas ports and most recently one that had an out of spec chamber (checked with a chamber gage). Fitting a bolt to a barrel requires the use of graduated gages and I would be surprised if WMD has them. Not sure how else you are going to "fit" a bolt to a barrel.

[Simi-audamadik]

I'm definitely not a gunsmith and am just asking; since the rifle fired and cycled ammo manually with the Radical Firearms bolt/BCG and didn't fire or cycle manually with the WMD bolt/BCG, if my chamber were out of tolerance/spec, would I not have the problem with both bolts/BCGs?

I'm definitely open to suggestions. I just want the thing to chunk a live round without having to bang the butt on something or pull the trigger.

Later!

Simi

[SINNER]

I see lots of wrong information here. If someone is using Go/ No Go gages for a 5.56 chamber that is wrong. Unless they specifically had correct 5.56 gages made for that purpose. The military uses a FIELD gage and it is the only gage I use.

I do not agree with that statement. Forster has made NATO spec'ed 5.56 and 7.62 gages for years now. Field gages only show maximum allowable headspace and IMO are only good to verify a gun is safe to shoot, not that the headspace is correct. Proper assembly requires verification with go/no go gages. IE Field gages go to gun shows and the min/max gages stay on the bench.

When I started playing with bolt guns I realized how very few people actually understand proper headspacing and the correct use of the different types of gages.

[Iraqgunz]

You're more than welcome to disagree.


I do not agree with that statement. Forster has made NATO spec'ed 5.56 and 7.62 gages for years now. Field gages only show maximum allowable headspace and IMO are only good to verify a gun is safe to shoot, not that the headspace is correct. Proper assembly requires verification with go/no go gages. IE Field gages go to gun shows and the min/max gages stay on the bench.

When I started playing with bolt guns I realized how very few people actually understand proper headspacing and the correct use of the different types of gages.

[WHSmithIV]

In my previous experience, most LEO command staff are slightly narrow minded when it comes to bullet holes in the ceiling, floor, or furniture; especially since we're in temp housing due to construction. Now, if I'd've had my suppressor, there are safe places nearby that could've handled said test fire and nobody would've been the wiser.

Ammo - the stuff I was using Saturday was marked 5.56. The Hornady TAP I was using last night is marked .223. The problem occurred with both.
Mags - I used at least two different PMAGs.
Lube - both BCGs were well lubed with Cherry Balmz Black Rifle grease.

I have not personally checked the headspace; I do not possess the necessary tools. However, my pistol was "assembled" by the guys at Radical Firearms and they used go/no go guages on it. My rifle was "assembled" by the same people. I did not specifically ask, but assumed they used the guages on it as well.

I spoke with one of the guys from WMD this morning. He suggested getting the headspace checked and that the bolt might need to be "fitted" to the barrel. They will check the headspace and perform any needed gunsmithing for $35 if I ship my whole upper to them. There was no indication that a bolt could be done under warranty and some indication that it may not solve the problem. Thanks for the input.

Later!

Simi

That's not a bad option Simi. $35 plus the shipping to them. Sounds like they're willing to pay the return shipping plus make sure it's working for you. I'd likely jump on that. One other thing that might be worth trying is putting that upper on the pistol first and see if it works there. Because, if it does, then the problem would be somewhere in the lower - hammer and or hammer springs would be my guess.

[Deadwing]

I spoke with one of the guys from WMD this morning. He suggested getting the headspace checked and that the bolt might need to be "fitted" to the barrel. They will check the headspace and perform any needed gunsmithing for $35 if I ship my whole upper to them. There was no indication that a bolt could be done under warranty and some indication that it may not solve the problem. Thanks for the input.

Kind of sucks that they aren't willing to just exchange your bolt for a different one. Given the results of your test, if the carrier works with a different bolt, i'd just buy a new bolt from someplace like Bravo Company. I mean, with insured shipping costs and the $35 for gun smithing, you're probably going to spend pretty close to the $80 it would cost you to buy a quality BCM bolt. Then you'd have a bolt from a company that'll back their product and you won't be without your upper for however long it'll take WMD to get it sorted out.

[Stickman]

You're more than welcome to disagree.

When it comes to armorer questions, Iraqgunz is pretty much the guy who trains armorers.

When he speaks, I listen.

[n4p226r]

I see lots of wrong information here. If someone is using Go/ No Go gages for a 5.56 chamber that is wrong. Unless they specifically had correct 5.56 gages made for that purpose. The military uses a FIELD gage and it is the only gage I use.

I have seen some Radical Firearms barrels that had incorrect gas ports and most recently one that had an out of spec chamber (checked with a chamber gage). Fitting a bolt to a barrel requires the use of graduated gages and I would be surprised if WMD has them. Not sure how else you are going to "fit" a bolt to a barrel.

Who makes a good set of gauges?

[SINNER]

When it comes to armorer questions, Iraqgunz is pretty much the guy who trains armorers.

When he speaks, I listen.

I honestly have no experience with him or you as far as gun smithing ability but the fact is his statement is wrong. You do you not have to fabricate NATO spec gages, Forster not only makes a NATO specific set but their 11 piece .223 set also includes the 1.4636 and the 1.4736 sized gages. They are dimensionally identical to NATO go/no go gages.

And if the OP's issue is truly related to head space (I doubt it. I'm thinking coating thickness issues like the Rubber City coated bolts suffered.) it would pass a field gage test with flying colors as the issue would be head spacing too tight. You would need the 1.4636" go gage to verify that condition.

[Kopis]

Can't test fire at work??? Are they against an innocent Desk Pop???




How could anyone be against a desk pop????????????

On a funny/not so funny note, i had a friend that had a negligent discharge... at my house.... in front of my wife.... she had a meltdown. I had to hold her back from hitting him.

Anyway he's a son of an LEO (not really relevant i suppose) but he is extremely cautious with firearms. He really beat himself up about it. Anyway, he carved a wooden glock like from the movie and would leave his glock in his truck and holster the wooden gun every time he would come to my house after that. (and he bought my wife like 2 cases of wine haha).

[Iraqgunz]

When I was in Iraq, the Blackwater armorers attempted to use commercially made .223 gages to perform headspace. All of a sudden, they discovered a lot of the weapons failing. Some of them had less than a few hundred rounds through them. When I went over to their location with the correct MILSPEC Field Gage (which is the only one spec'd in the TM) all of those weapons passed.

The design of the gage is also different. You are free to do what you want, I am simply stating that the Clymers and Forster gages probably suffice (assuming people use them correctly and assuming that the chamber is actually a true 5.56 NATO and not out of spec.). There are quite a few companies that have barrels marked 5.56 (older Bushmaster comes to mind) were notorious for having tight chambers.

When I check headspace I use a MIL issue Field Gage. If I was using a correct marked 5.56 commercial gage, the only one I would care about is a NO GO.

The only gage that is going to help check the chamber, is the 5.56 chamber gage made by Ned Christiansen.

http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php


I honestly have no experience with him or you as far as gun smithing ability but the fact is his statement is wrong. You do you not have to fabricate NATO spec gages, Forster not only makes a NATO specific set but their 11 piece .223 set also includes the 1.4636 and the 1.4736 sized gages. They are dimensionally identical to NATO go/no go gages.

And if the OP's issue is truly related to head space (I doubt it. I'm thinking coating thickness issues like the Rubber City coated bolts suffered.) it would pass a field gage test with flying colors as the issue would be head spacing too tight. You would need the 1.4636" go gage to verify that condition.

[SINNER]

When I was in Iraq, the Blackwater armorers attempted to use commercially made .223 gages to perform headspace. All of a sudden, they discovered a lot of the weapons failing. Some of them had less than a few hundred rounds through them. When I went over to their location with the correct MILSPEC Field Gage (which is the only one spec'd in the TM) all of those weapons passed.

The design of the gage is also different. You are free to do what you want, I am simply stating that the Clymers and Forster gages probably suffice (assuming people use them correctly and assuming that the chamber is actually a true 5.56 NATO and not out of spec.). There are quite a few companies that have barrels marked 5.56 (older Bushmaster comes to mind) were notorious for having tight chambers.

When I check headspace I use a MIL issue Field Gage. If I was using a correct marked 5.56 commercial gage, the only one I would care about is a NO GO.

The only gage that is going to help check the chamber, is the 5.56 chamber gage made by Ned Christiansen.

http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php

First off I would like to thank you for posting that link. I was given his neck and throat reamer by a old friend when I was having issues with a .223 Wylde bulging primers and had no idea who made it.

His chamber gage will be on the order with the new reamer.

I think we can both agree that the part in bold above is where most issues start. LOL I also think that I am looking at headspacing as critical for chasing the last little bit of accuracy in a gun after safe operation is assured, where a combat armorer is ultimately concerned that the gun goes bang every time. From the correct end of the weapon.

Thank you for your service also.