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gatordev
1 March 2015, 14:28
While trying to decide on a variable optic that could be used for distance shooting/plinking but could also be used for some limited closer in stuff, I found several options, but I kept finding something about each optic option that caused me reservations. My priorities were (mostly in order):

-a mil-based reticule that would still give me .5 mil sub-tensions
-FFP
-weight
-a reticule that wasn't really busy and obscured a smaller target at a given range
-at least 4x
-price

Some finalists were the Elcan Specter DR, the SWFA 1-6 and the MK6. My reservation about the MK6 was the donut on the reticule obscuring the target, but based on some pictures, I figured I'd give it a try since it scratched all the other itches.

Initially I tried to run this on a Colt 6921HB, but I found at 6x, I would get a "haze" in the optic from the front sight post. I never really had that issue with an ACOG, but I'm thinking the increased mag and probably the different sized lens had something to do with that. So I ended up pulling out my trusty Noveske N4 upper that's been criminally neglected lately out of the safe and took off a T1 and put on the MK6 (begin blurry iPhone pic sequence).

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/Leupold%20MK6/IMG_0442_zpsungswoow.jpg

This rifle was my first (technically second, but the first was a BCM that just didn't shoot anything well so I sold it) and has been with me since 2011, multiple local action rifle competitions and a carbine course. It has been absolutely trouble free and very accurate. After an initial swag zero at 50 yards, the MK6 and rifle were pretty much set at 100 yards using cheapo PPU M193. Not great groups (about 2.75 MOA), but this isn't meant to be a dedicated SPR. I'll run some SWA, Magtech, and maybe Black Hills 77gr through it at a later time, but for now, PPU and PMC Xtac will be it's main diet over the next few months.

Reticule:

I believe it was SINNER who warned me that the reticule may be too thin based off another Leupold optic. I have not found this be the case for the MK6. At 4x and up, the sub-tensions and reticule have been very easy to read. I do find the donut at 4-6X to be annoying at times, but it really depends on the target I'm shooting at. I haven't had a chance to mess with shooting steel yet (hopefully next weekend), but when shooting a 8" Shoot 'n C target, it does obscure portions of the target (donut is 9" across at 100 yards). Can you overcome it? Certainly, but either more mag (can't happen) or a wider donut would help. Here's another iPhone pic at 6x on a drizzly day.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/Leupold%20MK6/IMG_0445_zps3xk5o4ps.jpg

I would say in reality, your eye sees more magnification than that picture depicts, but all I had was my iPhone and not a SLR, so I captured what I could.

When running the optic at 1x, with or without the donut illuminated, it's fairly easy for your eye to find the cross hair and put it on the target. Here it is at 1x (donut illuminated):

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/Leupold%20MK6/IMG_0443_zpsssw6uksn.jpg

There's much buzz on the internet about how the donut will "blink" out if your eye isn't positioned perfectly, and I found that to be the case for me, as well. My question is, during the day, does it matter? I don't have a firm answer yet, but so far, even when it blinks out, you still have the center of the reticule to use and put on target. More on shooting at 1x shortly.

Image quality:

Obviously a subjective topic. When properly positioned, the image is very clear and bright. I have no complaints other than, for me, 6x isn't quite enough to see all the 5.56 holes at 100 yards. That may have more to do with my eyes than the optic. At 1x, it's pretty much like looking through an Eotech. Clear and almost zero perception that there's a tube of optics in front of you. I did notice that I could see my support hand in the image, which I don't remember seeing in a RDS, but it's not like it blocks the target at all.

One thing that I have found is that image quality drops off when you start to move out of the eye box slightly. Eye relief is great, but I've found that I get some scope shadow very easily if I move my head slightly at the higher mags. Compared to an ACOG, it doesn't seem as forgiving, but again, obviously a different design. At 1x there's more slop before scope shadow become an issue.

Shooting at 1x:

So, can this replace a RDS? Of course not. But how does it stack up? I need more data, but for the first set of drills I ran, I found the rifle to be much more the deciding factor than the optic. I set up a simple test with two targets at 20 yards. At the buzzer, I would engage each target with two shots, and shots needed to land in the A-zone. The times I give aren't meant to be anything special, and I'm sure many here could shoot faster, but I merely needed a standard to compare the two rifles. With the exception of one shot that landed in the C-zone with the MK6 (completely shooter error), all shots on both test rifles were on target. The two test rifles were my Noveske with the Mk6 and the "M4" 6921HB with a PA RDS (pic below). The M4 has a carbine gas system and a Surefire SF3P muzzle device. The Noveske has a Surefire 556RC brake on a mid-length gas system.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/PA%20MD-ADS/IMG_0439_zpswo35znnm.jpg

Honestly, while it might help slightly, I don't think the gas length is really as big a deal as some make it out to be. But I am 100% sure the muzzle device was important during this test. Anecdotally, I felt slower in acquiring the target and shooting with the MK6, especially if the dot would slip out of the "perfect" eye box and blink off. Meanwhile the RDS goes where you put it. But here's the data (average). I ran the RDS twice, the first time to get warmed up, just to make sure I got comfortable with each rifle. Both runs with the RDS were pretty comparable. Both "official" runs (MK6 vs RDS) consisted of 5 strings each (20 rounds total each).

RDS (no muzzle brake): 2.5s
MK6 (with SF brake): 2.1s

I have to believe the brake was helping. At the moment, the only other 16" Ar I have with a RDS is my 5.45 gun and it has a cheapo RRA brake on it, so I'll have to figure out an apples to apples comparison. Maybe the answer is to just put a suppressor on both rifles so any braking action is nulled.

More testing is needed:

Looking forward to continuing to run this, both at distance and up close. I might end up with access to an Elcan for comparison, which I would be very interested in, but TBD at this point. While not perfect (to me), I'm looking forward to continuing to put this optic through it's paces and I'll add updates here as I go.

alamo5000
1 March 2015, 21:19
While trying to decide on a variable optic that could be used for distance shooting/plinking but could also be used for some limited closer in stuff, I found several options, but I kept finding something about each optic option that caused me reservations. My priorities were (mostly in order):

-a mil-based reticule that would still give me .5 mil sub-tensions
-FFP
-weight
-a reticule that wasn't really busy and obscured a smaller target at a given range
-at least 4x
-price


I have been looking at optics left and right myself but after owning a FFP scope I wonder why you want that option on a 1-4x scope? At first I was blown away (in a good way) by the concept of FFP...and I have been using one that is FFP.... I just ordered a different one though that ISN'T FFP and I will be doing some comparisons.

My initial thoughts on it after handling a 2nd FP 1-4x is that at those powers FFP and 2nd FP aren't really going to make a difference. I don't know. I could be completely wrong.

It seems to me that the whole FFP thing would be served a whole lot better by a longer range scope. The longer range one I have been eye balling is the Vortex 2.5-10X FFP.

My thoughts are (after owning and using a FFP 1-4X is that at 1X to 3X you won't really be ranging anything out. Conversely on a longer optic like mentioned above being able to use the optic through out the range would be far more useful.

I am not saying it to second guess you but rather to get your opinion on the matter so I can see if I have just lost my mind or not [:D]

gatordev
2 March 2015, 04:14
I would say use what works for you, so I don't take it that you're second guessing me. For your shooting style, a SFP may be the answer.

My reasoning is the following:

-MK6 is a 1-6x, but I may not always want to run it at 6x, like if I'm trying to hit something 200-300m away while wobbling around on a barricade.

-I don't always spin a turret when shooting, especially if I'm transitioning between varying distances quickly, so if I'm on something other than 6x (like above), a FFP will allow me to still use my holds, unlike on a SFP. Now, at that range, would it matter? Maybe not sometimes, but I guess it would depend on how small the target is.

-MK6 (and the SWFA and Vortex HD GenII), when you go down to 1x the donut turns into the dot. That's how you're able to get the relatively small RDS-like reticule without all the other junk in your way.

-Lastly, I'm spoiled and I'm able to treat myself with the luxury. A SFP is certainly very capable, but since I could get a FFP, then why not.

That was most of my reasoning, but may not apply to everyone. Long term, I'll be interested to see if it was a smart purchase. If not, I'm sure I could get most of what I paid for it back.

alamo5000
2 March 2015, 06:20
I am soooo glad you can admit that you're spoiled ;)

My reasoning between the two is FFP is very nice. I have zero questions or concerns with it but after getting into the .223/5.56 round out to 200 yards and to some extent 300 yards the hold over are so minimal that at least for me I am more or less using the 100 yard zero center dot. 200 for sure but 300 may be stretching it.

SINNER
2 March 2015, 07:11
The difference between the TMR reticle in the MK4 vs the MK6 is huge. I can tell by the photos above it is much more discernible. Very nice optic.

GOST
2 March 2015, 11:22
Thanks for the review Gatordev, very nice. Been wanting to see it since you posted that pic.

gatordev
2 March 2015, 14:07
My reasoning between the two is FFP is very nice. I have zero questions or concerns with it but after getting into the .223/5.56 round out to 200 yards and to some extent 300 yards the hold over are so minimal that at least for me I am more or less using the 100 yard zero center dot. 200 for sure but 300 may be stretching it.

Yup. But like I said, target size and the ballistics of the round can come into play, as well. Shooting M193 at 5K DA out of a SPR gives me a 2.1 mil hold at 423 yards (a target I was playing with out in Montana). A 100 yard zero wouldn't have made it work, even with the very generous target size I was shooting.


Thanks for the review Gatordev, very nice. Been wanting to see it since you posted that pic.

Thanks. I'll try and add some more meat to the shooting side as time goes on.

FortTom
2 March 2015, 14:41
Very interesting review, Gatordev,

I wish I could shoot with a scope. I'm not talking shooting from a bench, but live action shooting. Had a Burris a few years ago, forget which model, but it had a thick red semi-circle reticle with a dot in the center. I was so slow with the thing that a bad guy could kill me throwing rocks, faster than I could get on target. I do have a scope on my AR-10, mostly for playing with at long distances, and have a ML2, for the rest of the time. Have to shoot everything else with a red dot. Would be nice to have a little magnification once in a while, without having to hang a magnifier behind my RDS. Must be a practiced skill, or born skill, I don't know, but I can't handle a rifle quickly enough to take on zombies with one (scope). Weird thin is, back in my big game hunting days, bolt action guns, no problem, I could usually get on target for a quick, humane harvest, no sweat. Especially with critters that bite and fight back. But no go with an AR and a "tactical" scope.[crazy]

gatordev
2 March 2015, 17:22
Like everything else, I think it just takes repetition and practice and I know I'm not anywhere near as fast as many out there in the world. I do question how much that actually, practically matters, though. That said, I think I'll be a bachelor this weekend, so I'll try and take out two like guns (RDS vs MK6) and throw a can on the end of both to nullify the brake to see what happens. I have a feeling the MK6 times will start to slow down.

GOST
2 March 2015, 19:51
Thanks. I'll try and add some more meat to the shooting side as time goes on.

Good to hear, I may be in the market for variable power optic later this year. Would like to see how the Mark 6 stacks up against the Vortex Razor.

FortTom
2 March 2015, 20:08
.... I do question how much that actually, practically matters, though.......

I agree GatorDev, but in a worst case scenario, say a total economic collapse, and ensuing anarchy, I think a 1X6 or a 1X4 would be a good tool to have on at least one rifle. Just can't grasp one for myself.

DutyUse
3 March 2015, 01:16
I agree Tom. Normally I'm a LW rifle with irons or Dot sight shooter, with a 3-9 w/ Burris combo in reserve for when deer season rolls around.

But I think a 1-4 might be a good idea to keep on one build. I played with a NSX 2.5-10 and loved that reticle, anything similar but in the sub 1k range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gatordev
3 March 2015, 04:00
But I think a 1-4 might be a good idea to keep on one build. I played with a NSX 2.5-10 and loved that reticle, anything similar but in the sub 1k range?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The Viper PST. They have a FFP and SFP model and the reticule is a standard "TMR-type" setup, very much like the NF MLR2. I think SWFA has a 3-9, as well, but not sure of the price-point.

gatordev
24 March 2015, 18:47
Two weeks ago I was able to do some more shooting with the MK6 as well as with a RDS (it happened to be an Eotech) in order to do some more comparisons while using a timer. There was even a small cameo appearance by an Elcan on loan for a brief stint. Due to range limitations that day, I was only able to use one target in the bay, so I focused on target acquisition and two-shot strings. The details are below, but this isn't meant to be about any earth shattering split times. I'm sure there's plenty of people that can shoot faster, but I was trying to have an apples to apples comparison with the setup I had.

-Target was at 20 yards. I was trying to put it close enough that was still a "CQB" distance, but far enough away that you actually had to aim rather than just point the gun in the target's general direction and being close enough it didn't matter.

-Rifles were the following: Noveske N4 (middie w/ brake) and MK6, Colt 14.5" (in Block 2 config w/ SF flash hider) and Eotech, and for a few rounds, a Colt 14.5" SOCOM (RAS w/ 3-prong) and Elcan. I ran a Surefire SOCOM Mini suppressor on all three to eliminate the differences in the muzzle devices as best I could. Obligatory picture of the M4B2, since it hasn't appeared in this thread yet:

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/gatordev/Public%20pics/M4blk2profileAmmo_zps79c0f745.jpg

-I would start at the low-ready and at the buzzer, engage with two rounds. I did this for 10 strings (20 rounds) for the MK6, then 10 strings again later (to come back to it after running the RDS). I ran the RDS for 10 strings. I was swapping between the two to make sure I wasn't getting faster with one just due to repetition. I also did 5 strings with each, unsuppressed. The Elcan was only run suppressed. Everything was run at 1x and illumination on.

So, here's the data (or a close approximation), for what it's worth, averaged over the strings (note: I wasn't writing these down for each string, but keeping a "mental average" during each string and then wrote the "mental average" down in my phone):

N4 w/ MK6 (suppressed): ~1.15s w/ an average of ~.83s split to first round.
N4 w/ MK6 (unsuppressed): ~1.0s w/ an average of ~.7s split to first round.

M4 Block 2 w/ RDS (suppressed): ~1.2s w/ an average ~.83s split to first round.
M4 Block 2 w/ RDS (unsuppressed): ~1.05s w/ an average of ~.7s (unsuppressed)

M4 w/ Elcan (suppressed): ~1.25s w/ an average of ~.9s split to first round.

When I started to push and go faster with the MK6, I found I was starting to engage a little too soon and hit lower on the 8.5 x11" paper target I was using. Still a vital zone, but accuracy did suffer. But finding that happy medium of time (at least for me and on that day), I found the MK6 to be pretty quick once I got used to the eye box. I'm convinced it's still a tad slower than the RDS, but it's made up for by the fantastic balance of the N4 upper and smoothness of how that thing shoots. I didn't used to buy into all that "middies are smoother" jazz that much, but after shooting these back to back on several different days, I found I was noticing the difference. Also, the Colts all had H2 buffers while the Noveske had a H.

While it was a very brief exposure, the Elcan was definitely a slower and less forgiving optic at 1x for me. At 4x on a target....man that thing is clear and was very easy to zero at 100y. I admit I'd like to play with one some more. Hmm....

So for me, I'd say the RDS is still pretty fast, especially when it was holding it's own against an upper that was running a brake. But the optical engineering of the MK6 continues to be really impressive at 1x and is at least keeping up in the particular setup I was shooting that day. I'm guessing having to shoot around/under barricades would definitely start to slow it down a bit due to the eye box. But I guess more testing is needed there.

Stone
24 March 2015, 20:04
"While trying to decide on a variable optic that could be used for distance shooting/plinking but could also be used for some limited closer in stuff, I found several options, but I kept finding something about each optic option that caused me reservations"

I had the same issues until I found the Kahles 16i 1x6 http://www.sportoptics.com/kahles-k16i-rifle-scopes.aspx [:D]
http://www.westernshooter.com/2014/09/kahles-k16i-1-6x24-sm1-review.html


Nice write up on the MK6!!

gatordev
8 April 2015, 17:12
I shot another 35 rounds today with the MK6 trying some dedicated precision work and some plinking on some steel. I say precision work, but really I mean trying to shoot with consistency with some non-match ammo. My Noveske just isn't a huge fan of PPU M193 (although it likes it more than a Centurion Arms barrel I have), but I could at least keep it in a 3-4" group. I was also trying some Swiss Geco 55gr ammo for the first time and that had some impressive results for the price. Shooting each, though, I still find that the donut does get in the way a little bit with trying to be consistent with a POA if you're trying to shoot for groups. I've found this with match ammo as well as the cheap stuff mentioned above when shooting at a 8" Shoot 'n C and working all 5 sub-target areas. That said, I'm still able to work all 5 target areas with minimal spill over, so I guess it's still doing it's job.

Switching to minute of steel, and all of that goes away. Super-clear image and no issues making hits shooting off-hand if you're steady and don't have too much mag. I'm starting to really enjoy this optic. I still think it's a little finicky in unconventional positions, but I think I'm going to try and run it in a competition this month to see how it does.

JGifford
2 January 2016, 00:51
Can we get a picture of the TMR-D on 1x without illumination? It seems this is impossible to find...

gatordev
2 January 2016, 04:35
You bet. I'll try to get it today at the range, but no promises. I'm bringing this as a backup rifle today, but since I ran it last week, it may not come out today. You might have to settle for a shot of the trees behind my yard, but their easily a good 75 yards away, so still a decent distance to show. More to follow...

JGifford
2 January 2016, 05:41
You bet. I'll try to get it today at the range, but no promises. I'm bringing this as a backup rifle today, but since I ran it last week, it may not come out today. You might have to settle for a shot of the trees behind my yard, but their easily a good 75 yards away, so still a decent distance to show. More to follow...

That's fine, I'm just trying to determine one thing: Is it viable with a dead battery on 1X during the day without a light, and at night in the house with a WML bright enough to silhouette the reticle. What is your take? Pictures will be good, as well as curious about your personal interpretation of the dynamic.

gatordev
2 January 2016, 14:58
It was one of those range days.... Show up and the range is closed to the public (no notice on the website or FB). Owner said it was on the web. Riiight. Our small group ended up at another range of opportunity, but it was much more chaotic and...just blah.

But to answer your question, last week, I was actually having issues with getting the dot to show with how I was shouldering the weapon. This isn't new, and it's a known issue. I'd also argue it was a small training issue that could be corrected with more practice, but obviously you can't always have your head in the "perfect" position. So I did an experiment. I turned the dot off and jacked up the mag to 1.5x-ish. I found that to work fairly well for me (75yds and in to ~25). I then ran a RDS rifle and found target acquisition times were about on par. Sorry, I don't have timer times this time (sometimes I write them down, but not this time). But I felt I wasn't losing time because it was a variable optic. NOTE: I was using a op-rod gun for the RDS side of this test, so slightly more recoil impulse, but the big thing I was testing was target acquisition and not follow up shots, so I'd argue it wasn't the thing I was focusing on for this test.

All that said... I'm finding the MK6 is a very clear optic, and good at lots of things, but I'm just finding it's not great at any of them. I'd like to keep practicing with it, so more to follow, but it's NOT a RDS substitute. That said, it's still lighter than something like a Vortex HD2, which seems to be pretty solid, albeit heavy.

I, unfortunately, have no experience with it at night. I wish I did...but maybe sometime in the future. A picture will follow in the next day or so. Couldn't get anything today.

JGifford
2 January 2016, 19:37
Ah. Thanks. I'm leaning hard towards the K16i based on that.

gatordev
3 January 2016, 10:00
I just reread what I wrote yesterday. I think it took me an hour to write that because my wife kept talking at me. I should add to the following to the above...

Part of what I wanted in a intermediate optic was near (or actual) 1x AND a reticule that allowed me to hold for wind (ie, a mil reticule). The MK6 does both of these well. From what I researched, the Kahles didn't meet the mil reticule requirement. Otherwise, it seemed like a solid option. Picture coming soon, I promise.

JGifford
4 January 2016, 08:55
I just reread what I wrote yesterday. I think it took me an hour to write that because my wife kept talking at me. I should add to the following to the above...

Part of what I wanted in a intermediate optic was near (or actual) 1x AND a reticule that allowed me to hold for wind (ie, a mil reticule). The MK6 does both of these well. From what I researched, the Kahles didn't meet the mil reticule requirement. Otherwise, it seemed like a solid option. Picture coming soon, I promise.

I want a scope I can use on 1x, illuminated or not, day or night or not (backed with a powerful WML).

gatordev
10 January 2016, 13:38
Apologize for the delay, but here's two 1x pics. I did one on a "rough" surface that's harder to pick up the reticule on and then one on a white background. I don't think I have a fast enough lens to try and do a WML shot inside, but maybe I'll give it a try some time soon.

*Note: It looks like the image in the scope is slightly darker than the world around it. I don't experience this AT ALL in real life. I think it's just the loss of light from the scope to my lens to my camera sensor that's causing that. In reality, everything seems uniformly bright, inside and outside of the scope, at 1x.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1607/24274977286_5463e7d9a2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CZ6B29)

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1716/23672905304_68317a347c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/C4TPZJ)

JGifford
10 January 2016, 16:05
EXACTLY the pictures I was looking for. Thank-you very much!
It honestly looks like the Kahles K16i would be better suited to my purpose, based on these photos. When I buy one, I will post a comparo review.

gatordev
10 January 2016, 17:54
Glad it was helpful. Keep in mind, my lens is fairly long, so when your eye is actually behind the optic, the reticule is more prevalent than the pictures. Yes, it will still be small, obviously because of the FFP design, but it's not "as" small as depicted there. I tried to play with it by zooming in with my lens and adjusting the focus/lens position, but the results show it's not quite matching reality.

JGifford
10 January 2016, 21:19
Glad it was helpful. Keep in mind, my lens is fairly long, so when your eye is actually behind the optic, the reticule is more prevalent than the pictures. Yes, it will still be small, obviously because of the FFP design, but it's not "as" small as depicted there. I tried to play with it by zooming in with my lens and adjusting the focus/lens position, but the results show it's not quite matching reality.

Understood. I'm pretty bent on the k16i though to be honest.

JGifford
25 July 2016, 07:32
Just a re-visit, as I contemplate another optic. Have you been able to use the the MK6 on 1x effectively in various situations without the illumination? Do you still like the optic? Over-all feelings?

gatordev
25 July 2016, 14:51
Out of curiosity, is your issue of running it "without illumination" because you can't leave it on all the time? If so, I can understand the concern. However, since it has individual "off" points in between the brightness settings, I'm not sure how big a deal that is. But I don't know your use case, so that might not be the solution for you.

Overall feelings? It's a pretty amazing package that gives you a clear, 6x optic, a (for the most part) mil reticle (important to me), and doesn't weigh what a Vortex does. Personally, I also prefer the graduations of the reticle of the MK6 over the Vortex (which I've run a bit now, thanks to a buddy who is deployed but had a used one sent to me to play with until he gets back). However...

The marks that create the donut start to be annoying at 300-400m if you're trying to shoot at something man-sized. And when I say man-sized, I don't mean a full silhouette, but a critical zone target (B/C). Personally, I try and keep the 18" x12" -ish sized target as my standard for distance accuracy. If I can consistently hit a B/C target at 800-ish meters with my .308, I'm happy, and same for 600-ish meters for my 5.56 guns. Anywho, if you have to hold, or just trying to quarter a B/C target at 400m at 6x, I find the donut starts to get in the way. I don't know that I could hit a B/C target at 600m with the MK6, even if I know the gun is capable.

As for non-RDS 1x shooting... In Florida sunlight on a paper target, it works just fine (and my standard here is usually around a 4-5" target at CQB distances). At night, in a house with varying background colors and a light...I just can't answer that question, as I don't have the experience.

So...given all of that, I have done some testing of my MK6 vs Vortex vs Elcan vs Aimpoint PRO. Unfortunately, they weren't all on the same upper, but muzzle device was eliminated from the test (via suppressor). Also, unfortunately, the MK6 upper was a middy Noveske upper (the same one that continues to cure cancer...cause it's awesome). Other uppers were a M4 MWS config (Vortex), MK18 config (Aimpoint), CQBR Block II (Elcan). Forgetting the positives of an extended rail (Noveske), in order of preference for 1x:

- PRO
- Elcan
- MK6
- Vortex

The Elcan and the MK6 have the same battery problem, otherwise, the Elcan is more forgiving (with dot on...less so if you have it off, which is your question). The Vortex is an impressive piece of glass, but it's just so damn heavy, and would consistently be .15s slower than the PRO and the Elcan on a very simple 2-ish second 4-target transition test I've been running for all four optics. Also, as it turns out the Elcan is about the same weight as the MK6 with a LT mount.

I understand why they did what they did with the MK6 red dot, as they only have so much room in the tube and the MK6 is considerably lighter than the USO 1-8 with the dot on the SFP, but the donut can get in the way at distance, if that matters to you.

Wow, sorry about the novel. Just call me "alamo."

gatordev
25 July 2016, 14:55
Forgot to add... I'm not a BDC fan, as it just creates too many variables. But for a 200m and in gun, that's why I rated the Elcan above the MK6. Shooting at 6000' with seasonal changes at ranges past 300m? I'd prefer the MK6, as I can adjust my DOPE with the conditions.

JGifford
26 July 2016, 00:34
Out of curiosity, is your issue of running it "without illumination" because you can't leave it on all the time? If so, I can understand the concern. However, since it has individual "off" points in between the brightness settings, I'm not sure how big a deal that is. But I don't know your use case, so that might not be the solution for you.
I am a fan of trying to combat Mr. Murphy. When I was learning to drive, my grandfather was my teacher (I did home driver's ED.) One of the things he taught me was "Always make sure you have an out if someone around you does something stupid." I have taken that approach on life, with many different things. It has done me a seriously good service, professionally, personally, in every way I can think. Having an optic that works if the battery goes TU, or gets left on, is really nice. What happens if I am attending a class and I leave it on, or it is bumped, or whatever, and I get to the range for class the next day only to discover that it is too dim to use/dead? Well, if I don't "need" it, it will be fine. If I do, I now have two options: I can remove the scope and run the day with irons, or I can "point shoot", which is stupid and will cost me valuable learning. This is also why I use mounts that have slotted nuts. If noone has a wrench, I damn well bet SOMEONE has something that fits in that slot. I just try to live as Mr. Murphy's arch nemesis.

Overall feelings? It's a pretty amazing package that gives you a clear, 6x optic, a (for the most part) mil reticle (important to me), and doesn't weigh what a Vortex does. Personally, I also prefer the graduations of the reticle of the MK6 over the Vortex (which I've run a bit now, thanks to a buddy who is deployed but had a used one sent to me to play with until he gets back). However...

The marks that create the donut start to be annoying at 300-400m if you're trying to shoot at something man-sized. And when I say man-sized, I don't mean a full silhouette, but a critical zone target (B/C). Personally, I try and keep the 18" x12" -ish sized target as my standard for distance accuracy. If I can consistently hit a B/C target at 800-ish meters with my .308, I'm happy, and same for 600-ish meters for my 5.56 guns. Anywho, if you have to hold, or just trying to quarter a B/C target at 400m at 6x, I find the donut starts to get in the way. I don't know that I could hit a B/C target at 600m with the MK6, even if I know the gun is capable.

Why? Does the target "hide behind the donut", so to speak? Isn't the donut something like 5moa on the inside? That means at 600 yards, you should have 30" of "inside the donut", no? Or do you mean if holding, that places the target behind the fat part of the segments? I don't mind covering my target and shooting through my reticle. It's how I shoot 1-1.5MOA groups with my FC-2. I just center the reticle, and "shoot through it". is it as simple as that, and it's a "preference/mental" thing for you, or is it physically impossible to properly use in the situation you are describing?

As for non-RDS 1x shooting... In Florida sunlight on a paper target, it works just fine (and my standard here is usually around a 4-5" target at CQB distances). At night, in a house with varying background colors and a light...I just can't answer that question, as I don't have the experience.

So...given all of that, I have done some testing of my MK6 vs Vortex vs Elcan vs Aimpoint PRO. Unfortunately, they weren't all on the same upper, but muzzle device was eliminated from the test (via suppressor). Also, unfortunately, the MK6 upper was a middy Noveske upper (the same one that continues to cure cancer...cause it's awesome). Other uppers were a M4 MWS config (Vortex), MK18 config (Aimpoint), CQBR Block II (Elcan). Forgetting the positives of an extended rail (Noveske), in order of preference for 1x:

- PRO
- Elcan
- MK6
- Vortex

The Elcan and the MK6 have the same battery problem, otherwise, the Elcan is more forgiving (with dot on...less so if you have it off, which is your question). The Vortex is an impressive piece of glass, but it's just so damn heavy, and would consistently be .15s slower than the PRO and the Elcan on a very simple 2-ish second 4-target transition test I've been running for all four optics. Also, as it turns out the Elcan is about the same weight as the MK6 with a LT mount.

I understand why they did what they did with the MK6 red dot, as they only have so much room in the tube and the MK6 is considerably lighter than the USO 1-8 with the dot on the SFP, but the donut can get in the way at distance, if that matters to you.

Wow, sorry about the novel. Just call me "alamo."
Not a problem. I'd rather you write a novel. I can pick out what I find interesting (which was all of it, honestly)!

I had bought a Nightforce 1-4 FC-2 ZS, but it STILL has not shipped. payment posted on the 15th. The seller (a shop/company/online store) has maintained great contact with me, but I don't believe they actually have the thing anymore. They tell me that it will ship from their warehouse in AZ, and that it's been "so hot" there, that they can't do a whole lot right now. Now I'd never ask someone to end up in the ER because they were overworked at a $12/hr warehouse job, but 1.5 business weeks since the money left my account, and it STILL has not shipped? I honestly think the scope only exists "electronically". I do NOT feel that I was ripped off, or lied to. I just feel that I was misinformed, and I feel sure that if I was, the company will make it right with me/refund me. Anyway, I am looking for a tried and true solution. The MK6 is that. The Nightforce 1-4 Is also that. If I can't have my NF, I CAN have a MK6, so I'm kindof revisiting that idea.

I wanted to ask, your ranking of the optics on 1x? Was that with, or without illumination on?

gatordev
26 July 2016, 04:22
Why? Does the target "hide behind the donut", so to speak? Isn't the donut something like 5moa on the inside? That means at 600 yards, you should have 30" of "inside the donut", no? Or do you mean if holding, that places the target behind the fat part of the segments? I don't mind covering my target and shooting through my reticle. It's how I shoot 1-1.5MOA groups with my FC-2. I just center the reticle, and "shoot through it". is it as simple as that, and it's a "preference/mental" thing for you, or is it physically impossible to properly use in the situation you are describing?

Mathematically, you are correct that it provides a "hole" to look through, but what I found was that the fat parts were blocking bits of the target which made it hard to be certain I was center mass or if I needed to hold, where exactly I was holding. In my example, the plate was 12" wide, which means it was .8 mils. Let's just call it 1 mil to make it easier. So I could see the target through the donut, but it was just cluttered. And if I had to hold left edge, then the donut starts to cover up the right part of the target. Disclaimer... This was on a very overcast day for this particular example, so it's possible with a brighter target, I wouldn't be complaining as much. Maybe complaining is a tad strong. Also, to be fair, in the prone I could still quickly engage the target with hits, I guess I'm just saying I don't find it as fast as say a normal MLR-like reticle w/out the donut (at distance, obviously).




Not a problem. I'd rather you write a novel. I can pick out what I find interesting (which was all of it, honestly)!

I wanted to ask, your ranking of the optics on 1x? Was that with, or without illumination on?

And understand I'm being critical of the scope because it's just got great parts to it and I'm just complaining about some areas of it that could make it even better. Unfortunately the "flickering" donut is probably the biggest issue it has.

As for the 1x rankings... All were with illumination, however I have shot MK6 with the dot off, but I don't have quantitative data on a clock to give you. Again, on a paper target, it's very doable. And to be honest, if you don't mount the gun perfectly every time, you'll probably end up shooting without illumination (or at least without all of it) because your eye will be a little off from the "perfect" spot for the donut to light up.

If you can play with one, I'd definitely have a look. Obviously all of my observations are just what has or hasn't worked for me, so that may different for you.

JGifford
19 October 2016, 00:55
Any updates on how you're liking the scope?

gatordev
19 October 2016, 04:37
At the moment, no. I plan to run it in a competition in December, either on it's current host or on the new upper that's about to be pieced together in the next week or so.

Short version: standby. I plan to have some more exposure to it within the next month.

JGifford
19 October 2016, 16:09
At the moment, no. I plan to run it in a competition in December, either on it's current host or on the new upper that's about to be pieced together in the next week or so.

Short version: standby. I plan to have some more exposure to it within the next month.

Roger that. Do you by chance have a photo of the reticle on 1x on brightest setting on a bright day? I know it will wash out on a light background on camera due to how photos are, but something g that showcases it in a worse case scenario, without cheating it due to camera tricks?

Also, on 6x, how easy is it to see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes? Can it be easily/readily used for ranging and hold-offs, or is it too fine/small/annoying? I ran the numbers through JBM, and anything past about 200-250 yards with my zero and ammo, will put me "outside" of the donut. I can then choose to dial to that, or leave it be, or use the mil/1/2mil hashes as hold-over points for greater precision and less target obstruction.

gatordev
20 October 2016, 04:27
All the pictures I have are posted. I'll see if I can take another some time soon, but I'm in a class this weekend, so probably won't be then.

Personally, I don't have a problem seeing the various stadia at 6x. As I mentioned, I find the donut can potentially make seeing the target harder, but if you're shooting far enough out and you target is below the donut, I don't think you'll have an issue. I think I mentioned it before, but I was able to hold on B/C steel at 400 and make solid hits with no issues. I haven't mil'ed at target with this scope seriously, however I'd argue it's doable, just not as easy as with a 10x or higher.

Once my barrel comes tomorrow and I can build up a new upper, I really plan to be shooting this a bit more in more of a precision environment, so I'll be able to provide more feedback in that sense.

JGifford
20 October 2016, 07:15
All the pictures I have are posted. I'll see if I can take another some time soon, but I'm in a class this weekend, so probably won't be then.

Personally, I don't have a problem seeing the various stadia at 6x. As I mentioned, I find the donut can potentially make seeing the target harder, but if you're shooting far enough out and you target is below the donut, I don't think you'll have an issue. I think I mentioned it before, but I was able to hold on B/C steel at 400 and make solid hits with no issues. I haven't mil'ed at target with this scope seriously, however I'd argue it's doable, just not as easy as with a 10x or higher.

Once my barrel comes tomorrow and I can build up a new upper, I really plan to be shooting this a bit more in more of a precision environment, so I'll be able to provide more feedback in that sense.
Solid.
Do you find yourself wishing you had gone with the CMR-W, though?

gatordev
20 October 2016, 13:49
I hate BDCs for a precision gun, which was the majority intent of buying the MK6. Or more accurately, being able to use the MK6 in a precision roll as well as a CQB roll. My use for it will change focus now to mostly precision with some CQB (basically for local SPR matches), so again, I'm glad I don't have a BDC.

As an aside... There's a guy that shows up here who has a lot of money and buys all the cool guy toys. He takes classes and can parrot what he's taught/reads, but doesn't necessarily understand everything. He's also one of those guys where the line between reality (him) and those that actually do this stuff for real is getting a bit blurred for him (IMO). At one point I was fondling a rifle he had that was equipped with a CMR, and after I mentioned I already owned a MK6, he proceeded to tell me all about it. "The BDC is spot on...well, when I shot out at distance, I had to hold in between the numbers, but otherwise it's spot on..." Hopefully I was walking away from him at that point so he couldn't see my eye roll.

Not directed at you, JGifford, but whenever I hear of a CMR now, I always think back to that exchange now.

JGifford
20 October 2016, 19:08
I hate BDCs for a precision gun, which was the majority intent of buying the MK6. Or more accurately, being able to use the MK6 in a precision roll as well as a CQB roll. My use for it will change focus now to mostly precision with some CQB (basically for local SPR matches), so again, I'm glad I don't have a BDC.

As an aside... There's a guy that shows up here who has a lot of money and buys all the cool guy toys. He takes classes and can parrot what he's taught/reads, but doesn't necessarily understand everything. He's also one of those guys where the line between reality (him) and those that actually do this stuff for real is getting a bit blurred for him (IMO). At one point I was fondling a rifle he had that was equipped with a CMR, and after I mentioned I already owned a MK6, he proceeded to tell me all about it. "The BDC is spot on...well, when I shot out at distance, I had to hold in between the numbers, but otherwise it's spot on..." Hopefully I was walking away from him at that point so he couldn't see my eye roll.

Not directed at you, JGifford, but whenever I hear of a CMR now, I always think back to that exchange now.

Well, I plugged in the data for the CMR-W. here in Arkansas, if it's dead on for me, at a match in Denver, I could miss a 18" plate stone cold at 600m. That right there is kinda deal-killing. Why the hell have a BDC if you have to plug the thing into Strelok all the damn time!? I am mainly concerned with...can I shoot at 100 yards and compare ammo? Surely it allows a precise enough aiming point(?) I know I can dial turrets and plug in numbers, lol

The wind-holds are what the TMR-D is missing, IMO, and where something like the H27D comes into its own.

gatordev
21 October 2016, 07:49
Exactly why I'm not a fan of BDCs. The wind holds will have a similar problem, as well. It may work great for one configuration, but may be off for another. For me, I prefer to know exactly what my rifle is set up for and use those specific numbers on anything more than a 4x. Basically I just make my own BDC. But that's just my personal use case.

JGifford
21 October 2016, 16:11
Exactly why I'm not a fan of BDCs. The wind holds will have a similar problem, as well. It may work great for one configuration, but may be off for another. For me, I prefer to know exactly what my rifle is set up for and use those specific numbers on anything more than a 4x. Basically I just make my own BDC. But that's just my personal use case.

I'm with you on it. I just wish it had a Horus type reticle. That would mean you could make your own wind-holds, too. Personally, I'm in the camp of dialing elevation and holding for wind. You can hold for wind with TMR-D if you correct elevation (or vis-versa). I dial elevation because distance is less likely to change rapidly and in an UN-predictable manner than the wind, so you can just change your hold vs. dialing again.

gatordev
3 November 2016, 13:40
Revisiting your requests...


Roger that. Do you by chance have a photo of the reticle on 1x on brightest setting on a bright day? I know it will wash out on a light background on camera due to how photos are, but something g that showcases it in a worse case scenario, without cheating it due to camera tricks?

I did the best I could today with available lighting. It wasn't as bright as a FL day can be due to the clouds, but it also wasn't as rainy as it was earlier in the day. As you know, trying to make this look "real" with a camera is tricky, so I did the best I could. It made matters more complicated that while taking the picture, the sun/glare was in my eyes so I couldn't even see the red dot on my view finder (even though it's actually there in the picture). Anywho, here's what I was able to capture today while the sun was out as much as it was going to be:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/30668891241_40e3ff6a41_b.jpg

This is setting 7 (I'm pretty sure) which is the max. However, it's slightly brighter in real life than it appears here. If I had to equate it to an Aimpoint intensity, I'd say a two clicks above what you'd probably choose to zero with on an Aimpoint. Very usable, but not the blazing hot brightness of Krypton's sun.


Also, on 6x, how easy is it to see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes? Can it be easily/readily used for ranging and hold-offs, or is it too fine/small/annoying? I ran the numbers through JBM, and anything past about 200-250 yards with my zero and ammo, will put me "outside" of the donut. I can then choose to dial to that, or leave it be, or use the mil/1/2mil hashes as hold-over points for greater precision and less target obstruction.

You can definitely see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes. However, I was shooting on a black Dirty Bird 12" grid target, so the hashes would sometimes disappear on the black background. If I adjusted a bit, I could make what I needed to use, usable (I was zeroing, so I needed to make accurate measurements). To reiterate what I've said earlier, the donut has the potential to get in the way on smaller targets. I was shooting 4 MOA (4" @ 100y) sections of the target, and once the zero was refined, I could keep rounds at 2 MOA or better. However, quartering the target was harder with the donut in the way than a more standard TMR/Mildot type reticle. Was it doable? Absolutely, and consistently, but took a little extra concentration. On a 8" target at 400y (previously), I found the same issue. Certainly doable, but took an extra second or so to make sure you had good sight alignment.

One last thought to add... I've shot my NF 2.5-10x24 quite a bit, and as UWone points out, it's an unforgiving scope, but I'm pretty comfortable with it. I find the NF to be as usable if not a little more than the MK6 on eye relief, unless you have the stock in the perfect position. Since I moved the optic (MK6) over to a new rifle today, I didn't have a spare ACS to use (which is what I've used the MK6 on before and what I use for my NF). As a result, eye position was slightly off (using a SOPMOD), even though I know the LOP position to make it equal to the ACS. Lots of words to say that now I have an ACS on this rifle to help, but the MK6 is very demanding at 6x. Again, usable, but just something to be aware of. But same goes for the NF. Like anything, practice with either will make it easier.

JGifford
4 November 2016, 00:43
Revisiting your requests...



I did the best I could today with available lighting. It wasn't as bright as a FL day can be due to the clouds, but it also wasn't as rainy as it was earlier in the day. As you know, trying to make this look "real" with a camera is tricky, so I did the best I could. It made matters more complicated that while taking the picture, the sun/glare was in my eyes so I couldn't even see the red dot on my view finder (even though it's actually there in the picture). Anywho, here's what I was able to capture today while the sun was out as much as it was going to be:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5566/30668891241_40e3ff6a41_b.jpg

This is setting 7 (I'm pretty sure) which is the max. However, it's slightly brighter in real life than it appears here. If I had to equate it to an Aimpoint intensity, I'd say a two clicks above what you'd probably choose to zero with on an Aimpoint. Very usable, but not the blazing hot brightness of Krypton's sun.



You can definitely see the 1 and 1/2 mil hashes. However, I was shooting on a black Dirty Bird 12" grid target, so the hashes would sometimes disappear on the black background. If I adjusted a bit, I could make what I needed to use, usable (I was zeroing, so I needed to make accurate measurements). To reiterate what I've said earlier, the donut has the potential to get in the way on smaller targets. I was shooting 4 MOA (4" @ 100y) sections of the target, and once the zero was refined, I could keep rounds at 2 MOA or better. However, quartering the target was harder with the donut in the way than a more standard TMR/Mildot type reticle. Was it doable? Absolutely, and consistently, but took a little extra concentration. On a 8" target at 400y (previously), I found the same issue. Certainly doable, but took an extra second or so to make sure you had good sight alignment.

One last thought to add... I've shot my NF 2.5-10x24 quite a bit, and as UWone points out, it's an unforgiving scope, but I'm pretty comfortable with it. I find the NF to be as usable if not a little more than the MK6 on eye relief, unless you have the stock in the perfect position. Since I moved the optic (MK6) over to a new rifle today, I didn't have a spare ACS to use (which is what I've used the MK6 on before and what I use for my NF). As a result, eye position was slightly off (using a SOPMOD), even though I know the LOP position to make it equal to the ACS. Lots of words to say that now I have an ACS on this rifle to help, but the MK6 is very demanding at 6x. Again, usable, but just something to be aware of. But same goes for the NF. Like anything, practice with either will make it easier.

Awesome! I know what you mean about illumination not showing up well on camera. My Kahles looked kindof weak when I took a photo with my phone. Your photo and description is great! Should have my MK6 by the end of the month. Thanks a ton again!

gatordev
4 November 2016, 04:05
You're welcome.

gatordev
11 November 2016, 15:29
Some additional thoughts today after taking this scope out to 600y on B/C steel...

First of all, while annoying, the donut wasn't actually a too big a hinderance at distance. As I mentioned before, with a smaller target, it will start to cause some issues (at least for me), but with the B/C steel, I could still comfortably bracket the target in the donut and shoot precisely and consistently. I also ran from 300y out to 600 using holds while zeroed at 300y and it was very comfortable, however, it was a little harder to "find my place" on the reticle when I needed to hold somewhere in between the center and the 5 mil mark since there aren't any numbers in between. At 500, I needed 2.6 mils and it was easy to lose my place for a second to make sure I was still under the 2 mil mark. Capable? Absolutely, just a tad slower than a reticle with some more numbers on it.

My other main take away is how sloppy the turret is. When you slip the turrets back to zero, it snaps into place due to the push-release button, but there's play when it's in the detent. I tried to center the "0" on the mark, but even after tightening it up, it's not perfect, so it can be hard to tell if 1.6 mils is really 1.6 or 1.4. Also, the turrets are mushy. I was jumping back and forth between my NF 2.5-10 and the MK6 and when I'd go back to the NF, the turrets were super-positive. The MK6, not so much.

All that said, the image is still very clear. I could spot hits at 400. With the mirage today, I couldn't really see impact points past that, but the targets at 500 and 600 were still very clear and the overall impact "splash" was viewable out to 500. I needed help at 600, but that could have also been the target (this was a MGM versus Red Stitch on the others, I believe).

If the turret was better, this would be a no brainer, but with the turret, I'm eager to see what may come of this mythical NF scope...and if it's awesome, the MK6 may help fund that purchase. For now, I'll continue to run the MK 6 in a SPR short course next month and see how it does. I know the rifle it's on is up to the challenge without braking a sweat.

JGifford
11 November 2016, 19:19
Some additional thoughts today after taking this scope out to 600y on B/C steel...

First of all, while annoying, the donut wasn't actually a too big a hinderance at distance. As I mentioned before, with a smaller target, it will start to cause some issues (at least for me), but with the B/C steel, I could still comfortably bracket the target in the donut and shoot precisely and consistently. I also ran from 300y out to 600 using holds while zeroed at 300y and it was very comfortable, however, it was a little harder to "find my place" on the reticle when I needed to hold somewhere in between the center and the 5 mil mark since there aren't any numbers in between. At 500, I needed 2.6 mils and it was easy to lose my place for a second to make sure I was still under the 2 mil mark. Capable? Absolutely, just a tad slower than a reticle with some more numbers on it.

My other main take away is how sloppy the turret is. When you slip the turrets back to zero, it snaps into place due to the push-release button, but there's play when it's in the detent. I tried to center the "0" on the mark, but even after tightening it up, it's not perfect, so it can be hard to tell if 1.6 mils is really 1.6 or 1.4. Also, the turrets are mushy. I was jumping back and forth between my NF 2.5-10 and the MK6 and when I'd go back to the NF, the turrets were super-positive. The MK6, not so much.

All that said, the image is still very clear. I could spot hits at 400. With the mirage today, I couldn't really see impact points past that, but the targets at 500 and 600 were still very clear and the overall impact "splash" was viewable out to 500. I needed help at 600, but that could have also been the target (this was a MGM versus Red Stitch on the others, I believe).

If the turret was better, this would be a no brainer, but with the turret, I'm eager to see what may come of this mythical NF scope...and if it's awesome, the MK6 may help fund that purchase. For now, I'll continue to run the MK 6 in a SPR short course next month and see how it does. I know the rifle it's on is up to the challenge without braking a sweat.

I can't wait for mine to arrive. Went with the leupold mount.

gatordev
22 January 2017, 08:58
I took the MK6 out to 600y yesterday to re-verify my rifle after a zero issue a couple of months ago. DOPE continued to be on and it was a quick run from 400y to 600y with no significant issues. Targets were 50% and very visible. There was a little wind starting to pop up, so holding the edge of the target was still doable. I was never able to run this optic in the local SPR match in December (it was canceled) and it looks like I'll be on travel for the next one, unfortunately. But overall, at least at distance, it's still holding it's own.

JGifford
9 April 2017, 02:56
I continue to also enjoy my MK6. It's going on an sr25, now though, but was killer on my Hodge Mod 2.

gatordev
9 April 2017, 08:31
Forgot about this thread...

Unfortunately, I didn't write down the times in my rifle log, but a few weeks ago I worked some drills with the MK6 versus using the T-1 that's off-set with it. The targets were at 25y and 50-ish yards and it was a combo of barricade and standing unsupported. Across the board, the timer showed the off-set T-1 was faster than the MK6. I want to say it was probably somewhere around .15s faster. I would find that with the unforgiving eye-box, it was easy to come into the scope and be slightly off and have to take that extra .1s to get the shot off.

This isn't anything new that I haven't complained about already, but it was educational to do the comparison on the same rifle with the same course of fire. All that said, I'm still keeping the MK6 on the gun until UWone coughs up that NF 1-8.

JGifford
10 April 2017, 23:53
Forgot about this thread...

Unfortunately, I didn't write down the times in my rifle log, but a few weeks ago I worked some drills with the MK6 versus using the T-1 that's off-set with it. The targets were at 25y and 50-ish yards and it was a combo of barricade and standing unsupported. Across the board, the timer showed the off-set T-1 was faster than the MK6. I want to say it was probably somewhere around .15s faster. I would find that with the unforgiving eye-box, it was easy to come into the scope and be slightly off and have to take that extra .1s to get the shot off.

This isn't anything new that I haven't complained about already, but it was educational to do the comparison on the same rifle with the same course of fire. All that said, I'm still keeping the MK6 on the gun until UWone coughs up that NF 1-8.


Do you mean the T1 was faster than the MK6 on 1x, or faster than trying to engage at 2-6x or adjust down to 1x before engaging?

Same boat I'm in. The NF has been out for roughly 2 years, if you're the right guy...which as cool as I pretend to be with my Hodge MOD 2 and closed tine warcomp and tons of M855A1 all that jazz, I am not.


Why I am keeping the mK6:

-17oz
-EXTREMELY tough
-Optical quality is good, and I note no CA
-1X is as close to 1x as I have seen except the K16i, which also had less pincushion distortion, but the "non homogeneous" reticle of the K16i was slower for me. I like ONE DOT. I also hate Eotechs.
-The turrets are awesome. Very low profile, zerostop, ballistic dials are cheap and readily available for any load you give Leupold the specs for.
-The reticle can be used to hold, dial and hold, or whatever.
-On 1x without a battery, it's still usable, if not ideal.
-Total footprint with Aadland caps is very small for the functionality you are getting.
-It was a gift from a good friend, and I never sell gifts of that magnitude, even without all of the other above points. As far as I am concerned, this MK6 is an NFA item, regarding my ownership trend of it.


What would make it better?


-Firedot illumination
-H27D reticle
-24mm objective
-integrated throw-lever like 1-8 Trijicon or VCOG or K16i. I am NOT a fan of the MK8 solution.

gatordev
11 April 2017, 03:52
Do you mean the T1 was faster than the MK6 on 1x, or faster than trying to engage at 2-6x or adjust down to 1x before engaging?



I meant T1 vs MK6 already set on 1x.

JGifford
24 April 2017, 22:45
I will say, the MK6 is kindof "busy" at 100 yards, but I can still shoot groups with it. Ignore the bottom hole with a slash across it, this target was from a previous outing.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18055769_894812188641_1024254756425189412_o.jpg?oh =dc90cecf4b078edf0f2ea952803cde04&oe=599126DE
DDM4, 16.1" CHF/CL/GOV barrel, 75gr GDSP .223, MK6 in Geissele .308 mount. 10 shots @ 100 yards from the bench off a sand-bag.

1.102" CTC is not shabby for a 6x scope and a 5500+ round chrome-lined .gov barrel considering this ammo did roughly the same from a custom rig with a massive telescope on it and all:
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?9240-Range-Report-Speer-LE-75-Grain-Gold-Dot&highlight=75gr+gold+dot


Daniel Defense should pay me for these posts pimping their awesome barrels, rofl!

JGifford
27 June 2017, 20:49
Well, my MK6 is going back to Leupold. Crap on the reticle. Shows up badly when illuminated, lower right quadrant. Not showing up in this picture is the "snow storm" of lesser reflections around that one dot, which, before you ask, is not just internal reflection, as looking at a white-wall, I see a black speck there with the illumination "off".

OP, does your MK6 have any such mess going on?
3744

gatordev
28 June 2017, 03:51
Nope. Not that I've seen.

Ran this scope on my Mini-Recce a couple of weeks ago at a SPR match. It's still not a perfect scope, but was able to hit a 10" plate off a roof top at 400y without major issues (once I found the sweet spot to steady the rifle).

JGifford
28 June 2017, 04:36
Nope. Not that I've seen.

Ran this scope on my Mini-Recce a couple of weeks ago at a SPR match. It's still not a perfect scope, but was able to hit a 10" plate off a roof top at 400y without major issues (once I found the sweet spot to steady the rifle).

What would you consider instead of the MK6?

SINNER
28 June 2017, 06:33
What's going on with Leupold and all these issues? That's 4 MK6's in the past few months I've seen have issues or flat out fail.

A good friend just dumped his MK8 for the reticle illumination failing for a second time so it does not appear to be limited to just the MK6's either.

Slippers
28 June 2017, 07:36
I'm sure it's in this thread or the one on m4c, but what's wrong with the Kahles 1-6? Was it the reticle? Honest question, since I am shopping right now.

The NF 1-8 ATACR is amazing. I will attempt to own one for every single rifle in my possession. Yes, I've had skin-to-skin contact with it. [BD]

Default.mp3
28 June 2017, 07:51
The NF 1-8 ATACR is amazing. I will attempt to own one for every single rifle in my possession. Yes, I've had skin-to-skin contact with it. [BD]Is that the fabled NF 1-8x that they've been working on for awhile now?

JGifford
28 June 2017, 09:19
I'm sure it's in this thread or the one on m4c, but what's wrong with the Kahles 1-6? Was it the reticle? Honest question, since I am shopping right now.

The NF 1-8 ATACR is amazing. I will attempt to own one for every single rifle in my possession. Yes, I've had skin-to-skin contact with it. [BD]

You've handled it...

...but you want to buy something else.

Sounds like you think "Grab a snickers..."?

Slippers
28 June 2017, 09:27
You've handled it...

...but you want to buy something else.

Sounds like you think "Grab a snickers..."?

I want something else for now. The NF is a long ways off. Good glass is almost like buying machine guns. Holds its value. Easy to sell down the road.

gatordev
28 June 2017, 14:44
What would you consider instead of the MK6?


The NF 1-8 ATACR is amazing.

This?

On a more serious note, my problem is that I haven't found a better option. The Vortex HD is too heavy for a SFP scope and I'd prefer to have half-mil marks, but the dot is great. The Trijicon, now that I've managed to look through a couple, just doesn't seem to do anything well, but for the money is a decent value, I guess. A NF 2.5-10x24 isn't FFP and needs an off-set dot (for my needs). Kahles, see below.


I'm sure it's in this thread or the one on m4c, but what's wrong with the Kahles 1-6? Was it the reticle? Honest question, since I am shopping right now.

For me (and I know I'm particular), it was the reticle. In a perfect world, I want FFP (more so on a 8 or 10x), reasonable weight, bright red dot, and half mil marks to at least 6 mils for elevation (it might be 8, but I don't have my phone near me to check my DOPE). But again, I know I have particular needs. At the end of the day, my MK6 has been a very decent 90% solution, especially on a Mini-Recce.


I will attempt to own one for every single rifle in my possession. Yes, I've had skin-to-skin contact with it. [BD]

Jealous. NDA? If so, I understand, but I've had several very specific questions that, obviously, have gone unanswered. If there's a red dot is top among them.


The NF is a long ways off.

This makes me sad face. Why did you crush my dreams? Now I need to figure out if I "replace" my MK6 with the NF 2.5-10x24 I have sitting in a box, or live with the MK6. The good news is I cashed in on Larue's deal last week, so at least I have mounts ready.

UWone77
28 June 2017, 15:18
This makes me sad face. Why did you crush my dreams? Now I need to figure out if I "replace" my MK6 with the NF 2.5-10x24 I have sitting in a box, or live with the MK6. The good news is I cashed in on Larue's deal last week, so at least I have mounts ready.

After SHOT 2018

Default.mp3
28 June 2017, 18:25
After SHOT 2018Oh, that's not too bad. But then again, I heard the same for SHOT 2016, so meh.

JGifford
28 June 2017, 22:04
Oh, that's not too bad. But then again, I heard the same for SHOT 2016, so meh.

I will say, I know guys how T&E'ed it, or claimed to, in late 2014. Remember S&B's DFP 1-8 ? Meh. I hope it's soon, but I worry.

gatordev
13 June 2019, 13:24
A few weeks ago I finally watched Garand Thumb's MK6 video and found it interesting to revisit the optic. For some time, my MK6 has been sitting in its mount on top of my safe looking for love. I was debating replacing the old ACOG NSN I have on my SR15, but that rifle is with my parents, so getting to it wasn't going to happen any time soon. After watching the video, I had a few reactions.

- It seems like, on some areas, he's shooting a different optic than I have
- Maybe I should give it another shot just as something different to do
- This would be interesting, since I put it back in a 1.5" mount instead of a 1.93" mount.

So, I decided to mount the whole setup back on my old N4 upper. I figured this was a good test-bed, and I've used it for other LPVOs. It's still very accurate (see below), fairly lightweight, and wasn't currently wearing anything other than a PRO RDS. So, after installation, it was time to rezero.

Warning: this isn't specific to the MK6, but it was interesting to see what I was able to achieve with "just" a 1-6 and a CL barrel. Mr. Noveske and company sure made some great barrels.

I decided to zero with CBC 77gr. I hadn't had the best luck with it previously, but not sure I tried it with this upper. The results were impressive, at least to me. I know there are many here that are better group shooters than me.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47969456103_2c8795c375_b.jpg

(ignore the upper left hole, that was from zeroing on another section of the target)

The big-ass dot in the middle of the reticle, coupled with the donut, don't make it easy to shoot a group, but I've covered that before. Not the point of the optic, so it is what it is.

Today I wanted to run some simple CQB distance, simple drills with transitions. I had two targets at different distances and at about a 60 degree angle from me. Due to some initial gassing issues with the first ammo (Silver Bear didn't have enough juice for the upper), I ran two different variations of strings on the two targets (plus a pistol transition to steel) for a total of 40 rounds. The MK6 is probably closer to the NF NXS 1-8 for comparison, so I'll mention it below, but for comparison, I'll mention the ATACR, as well.

Here are some takeaways:

- The lower head position was trainable. The bigger issue was eye box, but that was mostly okay. Out of the 10 dedicated strings I did, I only wandered out of the eye box twice, and not for all of the shots. Where the NX8 shines is when you wonder out of the eye box, you still see the dot. The ATACR, less so, but there's still a glow (and a MUCH larger eye box). The MK6...there is no dot.

- When the MK6 came out, other than the Razor HD, it was really the only other LPVO that had a daylight visible red dot in that price range (I'm not including the Elcan, which is also very bright). Today, at the highest setting on a post-rain, mostly cloudy day, it wasn't all that bright. I changed out the battery thinking that might be the issue, but no real change. It's still usable, but pales (see what I did there) to the NXS 1-8 and was still slightly dimmer than the ATACR, which isn't as bright as the NXS.

- Dot flicker...it still happens, but I went into this with an open mind and tried to not think about it. I think that helped. Yes, the dot would disappear at times, but using the "tunneling" of the reticle was still effective. Much like how many use the circle of the Eotech. I don't have comparative data at the moment to back this up, but it felt like I was slower with the MK6 while maintaining the same level of accuracy that I strive for. I'm not a fan of the 3-gun, "if it's on paper, it's a hit," type of scoring. That makes me slower than a lot of gamers (and that's okay). But I try to push myself for speed while maintaining A-zone hits. Compared to the ATACR or NX8, it feels like I could be fast with the MK6 with less accuracy, or slower with the same standard of accuracy. Obviously lots of variables there.

- Effectiveness...other than the .1-.2s slowdown (at times), it worked well. Coupled with a cheap, used T1 off-set, it seems like this optic could still be very useful. Eye box to eye box, I'd probably prefer the NX8, due to a brighter dot, but I may hang on to the MK6 a little longer and continue to play with it.

In the end, it's all fun and games anyway, but it was fun to play with the setup and I'll continue to do so. Pic of the current setup:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48056725051_58750ca461_b.jpg

(Standard of accuracy for me is 25m and in, all shots must fall into the thick black circle. I make marks for those that fall out of the gray for trend analysis)

mustangfreek
13 June 2019, 23:53
Who cares about Leupold shit anyways..

gatordev
14 June 2019, 05:00
I think you're confused.

The grouping picture is prone at 100y. Let's call it ~1.5 MOA edge to edge. The target/rifle picture is some intermediate distance less than 25m on a timer (with some pistol shots, as well). The second picture has nothing to do with accuracy or grouping, just a picture of the rifle.

Former11B
17 June 2019, 14:14
Yeah the target on the blue silhouette (2nd photo) I figured was used for speed drills, not 100yd groupings. I think there’s some confusion going on lol

gatordev
17 June 2019, 18:01
I figured that would be obvious, but I guess not.

FortTom
17 June 2019, 20:47
I figured that would be obvious, but I guess not.

Damn, Gator, by the time you get through testing that thing, it'll be in the discount bin at a LGS near you....[:D][:D][:D]

mustangfreek
18 June 2019, 03:58
It was a simple question...jeez


Carry on with your flickering $1k plus optic....[:D]

gatordev
31 October 2019, 12:58
Damn, Gator, by the time you get through testing that thing, it'll be in the discount bin at a LGS near you....[:D][:D][:D]

I agree. Time to let it go. Hopefully someone will buy it and I can try something else.

I've running it some more on my 416 with a little precision work and some closer in stuff. It's still a nice optic, and the picture really is clear. With the slight "riser" of the receiver on the 416, it's a good height when standing and just slightly uncomfortable when prone. My last few sessions with it have made me appreciate it a bit more than I originally did, but I'd like to move on. We'll see if the market will allow that. If not, I'll keep shooting it!