Being Honest With Myself About Accuracy....

[JHoward]

OK. So, the truth is, I want a rifle that will do sub MOA, and I don't mind spending the money. The problem is, I won't. I don't think I will ever hand load, and most likely the MAX I will ever need my rifle to do is 10" at 400 yards or so. I would be tickled to death with that actually. Most likely, it will see lots of 55 grain Independence, and maybe from time to time I'll buy a box or two of match ammo and let my wife try her hand at making a group, since she likes the slow stuff more than me.

So my dilemma is this....

http://www.shop.masdefense.com/18-223-WYLDE-1x8-STRAIGHT-FLUTED-STAINLESS-STEEL-BARREL-182W8STFBBL-SS.htm

The MAS Defense barrels I have owned in the past were awesome. And although this isn't rifle length, I am thinking I could live with an 18" mid length.

Does anyone think that with my intended use, I REALLY should spend the extra $100 on another "name brand" match barrel?

[toolboxluis00200]

funny I was looking at that same barrel a weeks ago for the price and for what u want it for I think is a good deal

[rob_s]

Are you asking if that barrel is " good enough", or are you identifying it as a premium barrel? I'm not clear based on your post.

[alamo5000]

If you want a 16 or 18 inch stainless barrel look no farther than the rainier select medcon. Its not supposedly "match" but with that barrel I can get sub moa for sure. There is a big soup to accuracy. Its not just one thing.

The deal with rainier that sets them apart from other stainless barrels is the proprietary treatments they do. Uwone said he has over 9000 rounds through his and it is still going strong. The guys at rainier told me to expect 12 to 15000 rounds out of it....which is more than double a regular stainless barrel as to life.

When I built my AR I did it with accuracy in mind...and I got what I was after. To get sub moa all the time though I will either take a $1.25 per shot or reload (with better results) for about 40 cents or under per shot.

It all depends on what you want and how you shoot. I've been studying a whole bunch on barrels and I for sure felt like I got a fantastic one...I'm sure there are other options but I have been able to test those barrels out like the have the one I own.

[voodoo_man]

Buy any quality pre-built rifle and use match ammo for zero - you'll get what you are asking. (KAC, Noveske, Rainer, etc)

There are plenty of uppers available from very reputable places that will do exactly what you want, Rainer and Noveske are at the top for obvious reasons of quality.

I'd also suggest that while barrel is important, optic is just as important if more so.

[alamo5000]

Voodoo man nailed it. The three main pieces for accuracy are the barrel, the ammo and the optic. Triggers are huge as well. Accuracy at 100 yards is one thing but the farther you go out it changes the game.

I would say discuss more about accuracy even if its to the extreme and then work back to where you want. The world record is a .01 inch group for 5 shots at 100 yards or something obscene like that...but define what you find as acceptable and build it to match. For me I would rather have a little overkill but not everyone likes the same stuff I do.

[alamo5000]

The MAS Defense barrels I have owned in the past were awesome. And although this isn't rifle length, I am thinking I could live with an 18" mid length.

Does anyone think that with my intended use, I REALLY should spend the extra $100 on another "name brand" match barrel?

After re-reading your post on an actual computer personally despite the attractive price I don't think I would buy pretty much ANY component that I won't be happy with and/or doesn't fit my intended use. Although it looks like a fantastic deal price wise, if it's not straight down the runway of what you want then don't bother. That's my 2 cents. There are enough manufacturers making enough stuff to be able to get what you really want.

[JGifford]

OK. So, the truth is, I want a rifle that will do sub MOA, and I don't mind spending the money. The problem is, I won't. I don't think I will ever hand load, and most likely the MAX I will ever need my rifle to do is 10" at 400 yards or so. I would be tickled to death with that actually. Most likely, it will see lots of 55 grain Independence, and maybe from time to time I'll buy a box or two of match ammo and let my wife try her hand at making a group, since she likes the slow stuff more than me.

So my dilemma is this....

http://www.shop.masdefense.com/18-223-WYLDE-1x8-STRAIGHT-FLUTED-STAINLESS-STEEL-BARREL-182W8STFBBL-SS.htm



The MAS Defense barrels I have owned in the past were awesome. And although this isn't rifle length, I am thinking I could live with an 18" mid length.

Does anyone think that with my intended use, I REALLY should spend the extra $100 on another "name brand" match barrel?

I've shot plenty of 1/2 MOA groups at 400 yards off a bench with Q3131 Winchester M193. Now granted, that's taking 3 out of those 10 shots and calling them fliers, because they were literally FEET from the 2" group of the other 7. That said, I routinely pegged bowling pins at that range. I think you can easily pull 1-2 MOA out of most any quality AR with a round off the shelf that it likes. I've even shot M855 that would do sub 2 MOA at 200 yards (10 shot groups) off a bench.

Don't sell it/you short.

Get a quality barrel for the gas-port and chamber. Not the super awesome bore dimensions. FN, Daniel Defense, etc. Plenty of others qualify. So on and so forth.

[JHoward]

So I guess the biggest question is, can you really write MAS Defense off as sub par strictly due to price?

I like that Rainier's barrels last longer, and that may be the driving factor in my decision.

[rob_s]

Something else to consider, is your ammo, optic, trigger, and shooter going to be capable of living up to the potential of a stainless barrel (assuming MAS is good to go, I have no idea and no desire to find out)?

At the same time, the heart wants what the heart wants. If you think you want a stainless barrel, and having a stainless barrel that looks cool gets you motivated to go to the range, I say go get yourself that stainless barrel.

FWIW, the accuracy hierarchy goes like this

1) SHOOTER
2) SHOOTER
3) SHOOTER
4) Ammo
5) Optic
6) Trigger
7) Barrel

I could argue 4 and 5 swapping places in the list, but I've seen some people do some amazing things with iron sights.

[GOST]

Something else to consider, is your ammo, optic, trigger, and shooter going to be capable of living up to the potential of a stainless barrel (assuming MAS is good to go, I have no idea and no desire to find out)?

At the same time, the heart wants what the heart wants. If you think you want a stainless barrel, and having a stainless barrel that looks cool gets you motivated to go to the range, I say go get yourself that stainless barrel.

FWIW, the accuracy hierarchy goes like this

1) SHOOTER
2) SHOOTER
3) SHOOTER
4) Ammo
5) Optic
6) Trigger
7) Barrel

I could argue 4 and 5 swapping places in the list, but I've seen some people do some amazing things with iron sights.

I agree with Rob. You see a lot of guys assemble a $2500 precision rifle, then fit it with a $150 scope and feed it bulk ammo. I got into an argument once over the buffer weight of a rifle. The rifle cost over $3000 not including optics. I was asked what buffer weight I'd recommend. When I responded they told me that my recommendation wouldn't cycle Tula properly.

[JHoward]

After reading the responses, I feel like everyone believes that I'm going to buy a stainless barrel and shoot 1 moa groups. The truth is, I will be looking to hit an 18" gong at 400 yards, and that will be plenty for me. I would like to be able to pull off a 10" group at 400 with factory match ammo. This rifle will probably get a 1-6 Vortex scope and a Hyperfire or ACT trigger.

I am not nearly looking for an accuracy rig, which is what I was getting at in the beginning. Do I need a stainless barrel to do that? Would it help?

[SINNER]

No need for anything more than a decent 16" barrel to achieve what you are looking for. I can hit a 12" gong off a bag at 500 yards with a 6920 wearing a 4x ACOG 80% of the time. With a 18" PRI barrel and a 6.5-20x50 MK4 Leupold breaking clays on a 300 yd. berm is easy. The accuracy you seek is really what I would consider battle rifle accuracy. 2 MOA accuracy.

[rob_s]

After reading the responses, I feel like everyone believes that I'm going to buy a stainless barrel and shoot 1 moa groups. The truth is, I will be looking to hit an 18" gong at 400 yards, and that will be plenty for me. I would like to be able to pull off a 10" group at 400 with factory match ammo. This rifle will probably get a 1-6 Vortex scope and a Hyperfire or ACT trigger.

I am not nearly looking for an accuracy rig, which is what I was getting at in the beginning. Do I need a stainless barrel to do that? Would it help?

I think the issue is that most people don't understand the stainless barrel choice if the intent isn't to chase tiny groups. Many of us have seen ~1 MOA groups with chromoloy barrels and good ammo.

[Ride4frnt]

Yep, they're right. On my "precision" gun I'm running a 18" BHW barrel, geissele ssa-e trigger, and a Pimary arms 1-6x ACSS scope. If I do my part, with good ammo I'm sure I can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards as that's the longest range I've got near me. I've only shot this rifle about 20 rounds for function test and rough zero, that was with 55gr hornady amax factory loads. Best group at 100 fit under a quarter with this ammo.

I will tell you, if I didn't have that trigger, it wouldn't have happened the way it did.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I'll agree with all the above. I have a 16" .277 WLV AR Performance barrel with a RRA 2 stage trigger with Vortex Viper 6.5-20x44 scope. I have shot .38" @100 yards on several occasions with my 90GD loads. GASwamper can verify my rifle is accurate as he shot it himself last September.

Moral is It takes everybody above(Robs list above) to do their part to get good grouping. If one the above is off your day might be as good as you hoped. One component alone will not get you submoa accuracy

[CK 187]

One component alone will not get you submoa accuracy

Nailed it

[JHoward]

The reason I was considering stainless was because I figured that even with me doing my part, that chrome lined would not do it. I was also under the impression that there was a standard deviation with chrome lined, and that stainless would have less deviation, and therefore be more accurate overall.

[alamo5000]

The reason I was considering stainless was because I figured that even with me doing my part, that chrome lined would not do it. I was also under the impression that there was a standard deviation with chrome lined, and that stainless would have less deviation, and therefore be more accurate overall.

It depends on who makes the barrel. There are several chrome lined barrels that are better than many stainless ones. The trick is having a concentric bore tip to tail. It is easier to accomplish using stainless because it is a softer metal but that doesn't mean that people actually take the time and care on it. On a harder metal creating that bore becomes more difficult and also when it comes to chrome lining if that is applied sloppily you won't get the best accuracy.

And in both cases the underlying metal has impurities in it that can lead to bore defects.

So if you got a cheap stainless barrel made out of a cheap chinese version of stainless and the guy doing the bore just didn't give a crap... you will get way worse results than using a 'better' barrel of any type. But comparing apples to apples on the quality scale stainless CAN be more accurate, IE instead of 1 1/2 inch groups you could get 1/2 inch groups....but this is assuming that in BOTH cases you had tailor made ammo for each gun.

A good stainless barrel can be more accurate than an equal level of CL barrel but that again boils down to ammo, barrel, trigger, and shooter. There is no two ways about it. If you want accurate (as in like really accurate) shooting you will have to invest in good ammo, period, regardless of what kind of barrel it is.

I have a really nice stainless barrel now and it shoots really good. That said I am tempted as hell to buy one of the mountain series barrels. You can shoot the holy living crap out of it with cheap ammo and guess what? No problems. I would venture to say that if you were really trying to shoot groups with a match grade gun and one with a mountain barrel on it and used independence ammo in both you wouldn't be able to tell which target was which when you were done.

The end point is, unless you are going to invest in ammo (either buying or rolling your own) then I would go with the mountain series that's on sale now. The ammo question is a yes or no answer. If the answer is 'sometimes' then the answer is yes. If not then pick a different barrel.

[alamo5000]

All that said (for me) I enjoy the whole accurate thing. I like it. I find it addicting and fun. Other people would find it boring as hell.

At the end of the day there is more than one kind of shooting. Being super accurate is just one. I would like to have a super accurate shooter with the optic to match....I have one that fits that...but I need the optic now. But for general shooting I am thinking a mountain barrel. Put my 1-4x on the mountain upper and put a 2.5-10x on the accurate shooter and see how things turn out. Two tools for two different types of itch. I am headed that direction now. It's just a matter of time for me. Like everyone else here, I have more wants than money.

[gatordev]

The reason I was considering stainless was because I figured that even with me doing my part, that chrome lined would not do it. I was also under the impression that there was a standard deviation with chrome lined, and that stainless would have less deviation, and therefore be more accurate overall.

There's a guy who has posted (with documentation) about shooting out to 1000 yards with a stock Colt 6920...with iron sights. I think he has a video on YT, as well. If it's not him, there's another guy that did it with a 0921HB barrel on YT. It might not be "as" accurate, but a good non-stainless barrel can do some amazing things with a good shooter.

[JHoward]

Alamo, thanks. Your post really cleared the water. It doesn't help me make my mind up, but at least now I feel like my decision will be somewhat educated.

[alamo5000]

Alamo, thanks. Your post really cleared the water. It doesn't help me make my mind up, but at least now I feel like my decision will be somewhat educated.

I've been thinking over all this same stuff for quite some time already so I am glad to help [:D]

Also all my own theorizing has met up with 4 or 5 months of actual doing it so that helps a lot too.

[Molon]

The Essentials of an Accurate AR-15

http://www.box.net/shared/static/mla3p170ls.jpg




Without making this overly complicated, you need three basic components for a semi-automatic AR-15 to produce its best mechanical accuracy (technically, precision): a match-grade barrel, a quality free-float handguard and match-grade ammunition, preferably hand-loads tuned for your barrel. (The free-float handguard doesn’t add to the accuracy of the barrel per se, it simply prevents any outside influence from detracting from the accuracy of the barrel.) Anything after that will not immensely improve the mechanical accuracy of the semi-automatic AR-15, but several things can help you, the shooter, shoot to the level of the intrinsic accuracy of your semi-automatic AR-15.



http://www.box.net/shared/static/psau3igm35.jpg



While there are certainly gifted individuals among us that can do amazing things with iron sights, most of us will benefit from using a quality, high-power scope to achieve the highest level of accuracy from a precision AR-15. In order to hit the exact same spot on the target every time, you have to be able to see that you are holding on the exact same spot every time. It’s also important for the scope to be mounted at the proper height and at the correct eye-relief for the particular scope. One of the most common errors I see with scopes mounted on AR-15s is the scope not being mounted far enough forward for its eye-relief. Also, in order to maintain that exact hold throughout the trigger pull, it helps not to be fighting with a heavy, gritty, stock trigger. There are a variety of aftermarket triggers now on the market for both standard size trigger pins and the larger Colt trigger pins. Personal preference will definitely play a role in trigger selection. Among the two-stage triggers, I’ve found the Geissele triggers to be the smoothest, lightest, most consistent and most reliable. For single-stage triggers, it’s hard to beat the JP Enterprise Fire Control System. Keep in mind that the JP trigger does require fitting.

Following the scope and trigger selection, some shooters will find that items like aftermarket grips and stocks will help them achieve a better “fit” with their AR-15. (Shooters don’t all come in the exact same size and shape.) Once you’ve put your precision rig together, you have to find a match-grade factory load that your barrel “likes” or better yet, develop a match-grade handload for it.

A semi-automatic AR-15 is not going to shoot as accurately as a precision bolt-gun, but today’s precision AR-15s are capable of a level of accuracy that is truly outstanding for a semi-automatic rifle. The 10-shot group pictured below was fired from one of my Krieger barreled semi-automatic AR-15s from a distance of 100 yards. I used Sierra 55 grain BlitzKings that were hand-loaded on a Dillon XL-650 progressive press. The load was developed using my Accuracy Node Detection Technique. The group has an extreme spread of 0.474”.



https://app.box.com/shared/static/c3nj830tjxcph7zq8vm7.jpg




http://www.box.net/shared/static/4zc0he19fq.jpg




….

[UWone77]

Good post Molon. I agree, although not as accurate as a bolt gun, the AR platform is capable of great accuracy. Nice targets as well!

[DutyUse]

Awesome write up Molon


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Iraqgunz]

A 16" carbine will do that all day if you do your job. Back in October at The Site Training Center in Illinois I used a 16" LW SIONICS melonited barrel and Carl Gustav M855 clone to shoot out to 600 yards. I borrowed a Leupold scope with a CMR2 reticle from one of my buds who was there. Not sure why you think an Uber stainless 18" barrel is necessary for that.



After reading the responses, I feel like everyone believes that I'm going to buy a stainless barrel and shoot 1 moa groups. The truth is, I will be looking to hit an 18" gong at 400 yards, and that will be plenty for me. I would like to be able to pull off a 10" group at 400 with factory match ammo. This rifle will probably get a 1-6 Vortex scope and a Hyperfire or ACT trigger.

I am not nearly looking for an accuracy rig, which is what I was getting at in the beginning. Do I need a stainless barrel to do that? Would it help?

[SINNER]

A 16" carbine will do that all day if you do your job. Back in October at The Site Training Center in Illinois I used a 16" LW SIONICS melonited barrel and Carl Gustav M855 clone to shoot out to 600 yards. I borrowed a Leupold scope with a CMR2 reticle from one of my buds who was there. Not sure why you think an Uber stainless 18" barrel is necessary for that.

Do you honestly see any difference in accuracy between your Melonite barrel and your chrome lined? I believe CL barrels have a unjustified belief they are automatically less accurate.

[Former11B]

Yep, they're right. On my "precision" gun I'm running a 18" BHW barrel, geissele ssa-e trigger, and a Pimary arms 1-6x ACSS scope. If I do my part, with good ammo I'm sure I can shoot sub MOA at 100 yards as that's the longest range I've got near me. I've only shot this rifle about 20 rounds for function test and rough zero, that was with 55gr hornady amax factory loads. Best group at 100 fit under a quarter with this ammo.

I will tell you, if I didn't have that trigger, it wouldn't have happened the way it did.

I loooove my SSA-E trigger. That 2nd stage breaks so crisply and <2lbs. With my 16" Rainier barrel I shoot golf balls all day at 100. It's fun to see them fly straight up in the air 20-30ft

[Iraqgunz]

I don't, but I have a different measuring stick for accuracy. I am not paying attention to groups. I don't shoot competition and I am not a super secret ninja assaulter. If I can hit what I am aiming at and do so consistently, then I am happy. In a defensive scenario you will most likely be shooting under 50 yards.


Do you honestly see any difference in accuracy between your Melonite barrel and your chrome lined? I believe CL barrels have a unjustified belief they are automatically less accurate.

[JHoward]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/11094780_10203733358430807_154148188446542204_o.jp g

So, I got a great deal on one of those uber-stainless barrels, and went ahead and pulled the trigger on it. I'm sure the barrel will be more accurate than me, and more accurate than the sum of its parts, but I guess that's not something I will complain about.

I ended up with an LWRC stock, Damage Industries buffer kit, Aero 2A lower, Stag LPK, Parabellum upper, LMT BCG, PSA FA and CH, Parrallax Tactical FFSSR 15 rail, .223 Wylde Odin 16.1 stainless Intermediate gas barrel, gas block, and tube, and a SI J-Comp.

I am planning on getting a trigger as well, but it probably won't be an uber-match grade trigger. I'm thinking the Hiperfire EDT most likely. This rifle will be 75% prone shooting for fun, 20% 3 gun, and 5% sit at the bench and try to pull off a 1 MOA or smaller group.

[GOST]

Looks great JHoward, let us know how she does.

[rob_s]

This thread is interesting since I have somewhat reversed myself. It occurred to me that if I already have an 11.5" red-dot gun, and a 10.3" suppressed red-dot gun, and I'm going to put a 1.x-Y optic on my 16" gun, why *not* go with stainless? The two cons to the stainless barrel are weight and (perceived) longevity. However, if I already have a shorter, lighter, carbine for times when weight and round count might be an issue, there's really no reason that I can come up with *not* to have the stainless barrel. And, while many advise against it, if weight is a potential issue I can get the stainless barrel fluted from the chamber to the gas block for $100, which isn't much considering the entire gun and optic is likely to cost well north of $2k.

[GOST]

The two cons to the stainless barrel are weight and (perceived) longevity. However, if I already have a shorter, lighter, carbine for times when weight and round count might be an issue, there's really no reason that I can come up with *not* to have the stainless barrel.

Rob have you check into Battle Arms Development's 16" Lightrigid barrel? At 24.6 oz. it's only 3 oz. heavier than a BCM ELW fluted. It's expsensive but I want one.

[rob_s]

Rob have you check into Battle Arms Development's 16" Lightrigid barrel? At 24.6 oz. it's only 3 oz. heavier than a BCM ELW fluted. It's expsensive but I want one.

I haven't because (a) I'm really uninterested in "building" an upper (b) I haven't seen any real testing on that barrel (c) as you point out, it's expensive, and (d) while BAD makes some product I like (45* safety, I particular) I find a lot of their products to be pretty... odd, which does not engender much faith in them.