PDA

View Full Version : Rolling my own?



alamo5000
10 March 2015, 19:01
I bought several boxes of 69 grain match ammo to test. More specifically I bought 69 grain Federal Gold Medal Match and I bought some Winchester 69 grain Match. I did a side by side comparison between the two and I got better results from the Winchester. Both rounds use 69gr SMK as projectiles.

On the box the Winchester is advertised as 3060 fps and the Federal is advertised as 2950 fps. I know Winchester used 24" barrels in their tests and I am pretty sure Federal did as well.

But for me out of my rifle I did a chronograph test with a cheap chrono, but it gave me approximate results. I was shooting from about 3 feet back so it wasn't a true 'muzzle' velocity but it told me what I needed to know.

The Winchester was clocking in at between 2610 and 2615 fps in my rifle. However I did notice that an occasional round was 'hot'.

Federal on the other hand clocked in about 2565 fps and the variation was no more than 10 fps. To me this indicated that Federal actually had better quality control. Their rounds were spot on just like clockwork. Winchester on the other hand had a wider range. Most of them were 'on' but I found one or two would be 20+ fps different to the hot side. Most however were between 2610 to 2615.

Don't get me wrong, both shot fine but I was able to get better groups with the increased velocity. My best performance was about 1/2" group at 100 yards, not that it matters. My theory is that if I had an 18" barrel then the Federal would be delivering the goods. In fact I am quite confident in this assumption. Those extra two inches would put the velocity right in that sweet spot.

I have always had the intention to create a pet load so when I get the itch to shoot for accuracy I can do it. Don't get me wrong, I will probably be shooting a lot of cheap ammo as well. I can hit the steel target just fine with a box of Wal Mart ammo. It's two entirely different things.

For my cheap ammo I will probably go to a friend's place who has a full on Dillion set up where I can churn out ammo by the bucket load and for my accuracy loads I can do those at home.

I found some 69 grain SMK projectiles that I got to the door for 22 cents a round which was cheaper than anywhere else so those are on the way. I have a ton of brass so all that's left really is powder and primers.

Considering that I am going to start with my accuracy load I am wondering what kind of power would deliver the target velocity of 2610 fps with a 69 gr SMK out of a 16.5" 1/8 twist barrel. Being consistent is going to be the main game. Any recommendations on powder?

side note: if I reload my 'accuracy load' the price is hard to beat. Considering that I have a lot of brass I can reload good-enough-for-me match grade ammo for under 40 cents per round-- the estimated cost is about 37 cents. If I buy the ammo locally it's $1.25 a round.

It just makes sense. Not only will I have control and get a better product for my gun but I save a ton of money.

For plinker ammo though the cost savings is much less pronounced. If I do it myself I save about 5 cents per round or about $50 a thousand.

Ride4frnt
10 March 2015, 19:39
Look in the reloading section here, there's an accuracy load thread. I think most are using varget, ramshot TAC, or h322.

alamo5000
10 March 2015, 19:58
Look in the reloading section here, there's an accuracy load thread. I think most are using varget, ramshot TAC, or h322.


I will search around and see what I can find. I have only read a couple here. I have looked at the reload data for a bunch of powders and most of the stuff I have found doesn't specify barrel length when figuring velocity and pressure. I think most of the advertised velocities are 24" barrel tests so I kind of have to guess at what kind of velocities I will end up with. Ideally I would find a willing soul who can test 69gr rounds out of a 16" barrel before hand so I can get an idea of what I am going to need to do to get from point A to point B. Buying a pound of powder to just 'try' is pretty steep. There are several powders that would probably get me there but I am hoping there are some people around who know more than me and can steer me.

Considering the shorter barrel would a slightly faster powder be better? Or should I just consider the 24" barrel tests and try to estimate a 'discount' for velocity loss?

Since I have a very specific need hopefully someone can help me out with some wisdom.

alamo5000
10 March 2015, 20:04
Also what KIND of powders are better for accuracy loads? Stick, ball, flake? Which ones are easier to deal with?

I have loaded a ton of pistol rounds but not so much rifle ammo.

alamo5000
10 March 2015, 20:50
As of right now I have two possible candidates.

One is Hogdon H4895 which lists a load at 3069 fps using a 69gr projectile from a 24" barrel. If I discount for barrel length I might be able to get to the target velocity, but I am not sure if a faster burning powder would be better. In my mind it would be but I can't say for sure.

The other candidate is Hogdon H322. It shows a max load going out to 2932 fps with a 24" barrel and 69 gr projectile. HOWEVER this powder is #74 on the burn rate chart whereas H4895 is #87 on the list. H322 is a faster burning powder which I am thinking may be better for a shorter barrel.

Buried in the archives of the internet one guy on another forum said he was able to get an average of 2697 fps out of a 16" barrel using the H322. It's possible I imagine. If that's true then in my work up I would have a full 80 fps of leeway to work with.

Former11B
11 March 2015, 03:55
Varget and Reloder 15 are very similar powders and two of the best powders around. RE15 is what I shot that 69gr SMK five round cloverleaf with at 100yds in your other thread.

Also, just because a longer barrel produces greater velocity doesn't mean it will produce greater accuracy. This is where I see some reloaders get mixed up. They spend a lot of time trying to find their max charge versus their most ACCURATE one and end up just being able to miss further targets at a higher speed

This may interest you

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/10/daniel-zimmerman/the-truth-about-barrel-length-muzzle-velocity-and-accuracy/

SINNER
11 March 2015, 08:22
I agree on the Varget or the RE-15. Primers make a difference too. CCI have always produced the most consistent numbers.

Ride4frnt
11 March 2015, 08:43
Removed due to my stupid ass posting in the wrong thread.

Jerry R
11 March 2015, 09:01
most of the stuff I have found doesn't specify barrel length when figuring velocity and pressure.

Don't know much about supplying wisdom [BD] but I posted a thread on velocity versus barrel length. Most of the stuff is 6.8 but there is 5.56 info at the bottom of the spreadsheet. Not your bullet or powder choices stated above, but you could extrapolate the gain/loss from the figures. Maybe it will help.

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?3231-Velocity-loss-based-on-barrel-length&highlight=

alamo5000
11 March 2015, 19:20
Also, just because a longer barrel produces greater velocity doesn't mean it will produce greater accuracy. This is where I see some reloaders get mixed up. They spend a lot of time trying to find their max charge versus their most ACCURATE one and end up just being able to miss further targets at a higher speed

Oh I get that. I am not trying to make that case at all. I am saying that I tried a couple of kinds of ammo out of my rifle, which has a fixed barrel length (16.5") and based on that test I got better results at that velocity vs a slower velocity. It's not at all about maxing out my load. I might get to testing and find that optimal combo is less. I more or less have a baseline to work off of and that's it.

I called around and a place in town sells powders ranging in price from $25-$35 or so (per pound) so what I might do is narrow the choices to the top three and buy those and then try to work something up. That said I want to have that velocity to be within reach without having to resort to max loads or whatever.

If I get three powders and find that 'one' that I am really after... I can still use the other two. I would just get some other projectiles and make plinker loads. If I spend $100 on three different powders really there is nothing lost. I just want to get something that can on paper give me 2650 or so if I max it out but then I can work up to what is actually what I want. It might be 2590 fps or it might be 2600 or 2610 but it's going to be somewhere in that range (I think).

Former11B
12 March 2015, 04:43
And at <300yds, don't discount 52gr BTHPs...either Hornady, Nosler, or SMKs. They're cheaper than 69-77gr, and if you're just punching paper at 0-200yds, it may be worth it.

22.5gr Reloder10x
2.25"OAL

-or-

(Work up this load but A LOT of people use it)
27gr RE15
2.25"OAL

Both of those with 52gr pills with that much powder are going to be over 2900fps in a 16". Might be better than 69gr @2500fps

alamo5000
12 March 2015, 05:51
And at <300yds, don't discount 52gr BTHPs...either Hornady, Nosler, or SMKs. They're cheaper than 69-77gr, and if you're just punching paper at 0-200yds, it may be worth it.

22.5gr Reloder10x
2.25"OAL

-or-

(Work up this load but A LOT of people use it)
27gr RE15
2.25"OAL

Both of those with 52gr pills with that much powder are going to be over 2900fps in a 16". Might be better than 69gr @2500fps

I already ordered a box of 69 gr because they have been proven to work. That said I would like to experiment with different loads with different projectiles to see what I can get.

alamo5000
12 March 2015, 17:46
Well I had an interesting experience today. I ordered some 69gr SMK bullets from a company but for some reason they didn't charge my credit card. I was kind of wondering what the problem was so I found a phone number and got an older man on the other end of the line. He was SUPER nice and we chatted a bit. I found out that I mistyped one number on my CC when I placed my order. After all that got sorted out we talked a little bit about what I was doing. In the end he gave me a telephone number to call and said 'I recommend calling and asking there'...

I figured what the hell, why not. I gave it a ring and got to the person... and holy smokes. He was another really super nice older man who has been reloading for 50 years. The number I called was directly to Sierra Bullets. The guy I had on the phone told me that he shot for 9 hours a day 6 days a week for 8 months straight collecting data. He literally wrote all the data manuals that Sierra uses. He was one of their chief technicians and he's worked at Sierra for 30 something years.

Holy crap batman. Did I ever have the right guy on the line! DAAAAMN.

Anyway we chatted and BS'ed a little bit and we really hit it off. I could tell he was a very kind person. Before it was all over we were cracking jokes but I also got to ask him about loads, load data, and what he recommended. I gave him the information about my rifle and he gave me 3 pretty specific loads using 3 specific powders while using 69gr SMK bullets. Then he gave me his information and told me that if I have any further questions to call him back any time.

Wow. Why do I get so lucky? [:D]

His specific recommendations of 'where I should start' were given in a 'first choice, second choice, and third choice' format...

1st choice: 25 to 25.5 grains of Varget
2nd choice: 24.5 grains of IMR4895
3rd choice: 24.4 grains of Accurate 2520

I didn't ask him for three choices. He just shuffled through what sounded like a stack of notes or whatever and that's what he gave me.

Well it certainly looks like that debate is ended [BD]

My bullets are on the way and now I need to locate some primers and some Varget.

Former11B
12 March 2015, 17:58
I know I said it before but if you can't get Varget, RE15 is right next to it on the burn rate chart and very similar...almost to the point it could be a direct substitute, but not quite. I use 24.1gr of RE15 but that doesn't mean there isn't another node at a higher charge weight

4895 was a Camp Perry staple....known as The Camp Perry Powder and has put some hundreds of tons of .308 lead downrange in very tight groups. Accurate 2495 is a direct substitute for 4895.

I have no experience with 2520

alamo5000
12 March 2015, 18:25
I was just blown away by the kindness people in the shooting community showed me today. Neither one of those old guys had to talk to me. But they did. Ammo aside that just made my day.

There is a place in town that sells all sorts of gun stuff so I called them and they didn't have any Varget in stock but I gave them my number and they told me they would call when it came in. I am not opposed to trying different powders. Not at all. I will most likely buy in one pound increments and try a few things until I get what the gun likes. All I know is the list got a whole lot shorter by asking around here and by talking to the guy at Sierra.

Now I just need to figure a way to measure powder a little more efficiently. I'm thinking I need a good accurate digital scale.

I also need primers but I think I can round some of those up.

Former11B
13 March 2015, 09:05
I use an RCBS Chargemaster dispenser/sxale combo. Works great. I calibrate it every time, don't use a fan near any digital scale, it'll disrupt the reading.

I would try something like XBR 8208 or 4166 before AA2520...just my two cents though.

velocity2006
13 March 2015, 09:33
Kind of odd the guy from Seirra would recommend starting a load above max data in most books for Varget and a 69gr projectile (most have 24.9gr as Maximum for a 69gr projectile), especially considering my rifle does well with around 90% of the max published load data. Your rifle may like the hotter loads, but personally if I were you I wouldn't be so much worried about velocity and charge weight as I would finding your rifles accuracy node. I would start with say 22gr-23gr of Varget and load 4 of each in .5gr increments (can do whatever you like but this is what I do). Then take 1 round from each of the weight batches and do a ladder test and see where your accuracy node is going to be. Then take the remaining 3 rounds from each batch and shoots a 3 round group separately for each batch. Pick the charge weight that performed the most consistently.

This will give you a much better idea of your rifles accuracy potential instead of basing it off of a factory load. Obviously with an AR platform rifle your limited to magazine length which will compromise your accuracy a bit, but you have already stated its half-moa capable, which is more than I would expect from most of my service rifles. I get about 1 moa out of a CL 1-7 16" FN 5.56 Barrel on a good day sometimes under with a 69gr SMK, but that's really pushing what the rifle is capable of. A 16" non-CL 1-7 should shoot those SMK's into a ragged hole all day though.

Former11B
13 March 2015, 15:08
Hodgdons maximum load for Varget and 69 grain projectiles is 26.0 grains & that is a compressed load, so the sierra recommendation was not inaccurate, but it still requires working up to for safety. The publish load for 4895 is 24.8, compressed. Again, these are both according to the powder manufacturer.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com

velocity2006
13 March 2015, 15:54
I was looking at my data from my Hornady manual, but even with loadings I've personally done 25gr was always past my accuracy node.

Former11B
13 March 2015, 16:17
I was looking at my data from my Hornady manual, but even with loadings I've personally done 25gr was always past my accuracy node.

I completely agree testing up to any load someone suggests is required, even if the Sierra tester himself vouches for it, because an individual's rifle is exactly that: individual.

alamo5000
14 March 2015, 08:33
Kind of odd the guy from Seirra would recommend starting a load above max data in most books

Maybe I should clarify what I asked and what his response was. I asked what I asked here more or less about my own tests, my own velocity chrono tests, what gave me the best accuracy on my store bought tests etc etc.

Then I asked "while I am working into a load, I want to have 2610 fps within range if needed"...I was basing my question to him off of my own set of theories. His answer was basically 'these three charges in a 16" barrel will more than likely be more than enough to get you to that spot"

He didn't say what the specific load would be to max out the accuracy of my rifle. I asked my question because I wanted to have a higher top end if needed. If I can get them up to 2630 with those charges he mentioned but I wind up finding the sweet spot at 2580... then so much the better. I will be off of the max load if that turns out to be the case and that... is a good thing. I don't necessarily want to be shooting max loads all the time.

I am listening to you guys (for real [:D] ) about finding 'nodes' and hitting that sweet spot.

But as others have noted velocity isn't the sole determining factor here. The bang and type of bang matters a lot too as do a bunch of other things.

Basically I said "I have XYZ gear and I am developing a load...one that seems to work registered X velocity... so with a 69gr SMK if I want that velocity within reach using that bullet and that stuff..."

His answer was more geared around my very pointed question about velocity. I might be taking a totally goofed up approach to all this but hey, I gotta learn somehow. Of course I know that I will work into a load. I am not going to just plunk 25 grains in and hope for the best....but I was asking about loads that I could safely use to get me to that velocity should I ultimately need to go there.

alamo5000
14 March 2015, 08:47
At the end of the day Varget apparently comes highly recommended.

I will go try to round some up and see what I can come up with.

Here is the load data from Hogdon's website for a 69gr bullet with those two powders:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7607/16811424902_70bbef11fc_b.jpg


So accounting for a shorter barrel I should still be able to do good.

IMR 4895 is a faster burning powder... #89 on the chart I am looking at... and Varget is #99...

So in a shorter barrel than these tests were run on... I guess I should be good to go. I might buy a bottle of each and try them out one by one. Can't hurt. $30 what the hey.

alamo5000
16 March 2015, 20:27
So I went and picked up some powder. I got 1lb of Varget and 1lb of IMR4895, 1000 primers and 1000 69gr SMK bullets. I will try with both the powders to see which one I ultimately like better.

I already have dies and presses and everything else I need. I know I can get from point A to point B but my set up is all manual so more or less it will take forever to reload any number of rounds.

Ideally I will come up with something accurate, repeatable, and relatively quick. With my set up now I can be accurate but it will be slow. I am thinking a set up like the one in the video will allow me to speed things up quite a bit without really sacrificing much. What do you guys think?

Once I get the right load my intention is to reload a couple hundred rounds and keep em around and on rainy days or whatever load up more. I figure with a setup like this once I get my brass done I could reload a couple hundred rounds in an evening, which is pretty good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fClPCbuKiXQ

alamo5000
16 March 2015, 20:36
Also as of right now the price per round is about .38 cents. Once I settle on a powder I can get the price down to .35 cents per round if I use the 69 gr SMK's. That's way the hell better than the $1.25+ per round if I just buy the stuff.

If I reload some 55gr rounds we're talking about .25 cents a round. That's still saving .10 cents a round and will have me doing something other than watching some stupid show on TV.

Seriously though after I get my brass ready, if I can reload 200 rounds in an evening and have pretty good consistency about it then what the hell, that's not a bad deal.

Former11B
17 March 2015, 07:23
Look at Nosler or Hornady bullets. I found Hornady, even though less expensive, makes a high quality, very uniform BTHP...the secants and jackets are flawless. I was getting boxes of their 52gr for $17.99 whereas Nosler CC 52gr were $23.99. It adds up, and the heavier bullets by Sierra and Nosler are closer to, if not over $30/100.

alamo5000
17 March 2015, 11:13
Oh yes. I plan on trying to work up loads for different projectiles and see what I can get. For sure. The 69gr SMK were under $100 per 500. With shipping and everything I can get em for about 21 cents a piece delivered to my door. I'm definitely up to try other things though. My deal now is trying to figure out a way to speed up my charge process while still being accurate. I've never tried a digital scale for reloading but I might give it a go.