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View Full Version : Pre-SHOT SHOW 09 rumors, guesses, hopes, etc..



Stickman
14 December 2008, 11:11
SHOT 09 is just about a month away, so I figure its about time we got a thread started for rumors, ideas, hopes, and hope nots.

While in general the board is looking for solid info based on first hand use, this thread is open for any rumors or second hand info that relates to SHOT Show items.



So far, I've heard of a few .308s, which I welcome on one hand, but on the other hand I wish this would have been taken care of when we saw half way decent .308 prices 5 years ago. For functional combat .308 systems, KAC and Noveske, along with Armalite already have a pretty good grasp on the market. For upcoming systems, Magpul has me intrigued with their project. Other offerings coming up that are based on the AR10 seem to be jumping on the me-to wagon, though I guess thats not always a bad thing. I wonder if the FAL design will have anything new this year.... DSA seems to have that market down pat, so anything else that comes up I would expect to see from them. The .308 bullpup design that we saw awhile back from another company never seemed to go anywhere, so I've got to wonder if someone else picked it up and is working on it.



New magazines were in concept stage last year, and we should be seeing final production versions right around SHOT 09. Tango Down has a unique take on these, and it will be interesting to see how they do. TD has a pretty solid knowledge of the market, and isn't new to polymers, but the beast to beat is still the PMAG, which is being used by some well placed units. Other magazines are coming as well, and I would guess that CAA and TD aren't the only ones.


Stocks for the M16/ AR15 family are another guess. Magpul has released prototypes of their ACS, and I'm guessing that we will see production level models this year. I've heard of a few other stocks that may be getting released, but not from Magpul. Think more along the lines of CAA, and possible some others.


Pistol grips for the ARs are going to be MOE and MOE + from Magpul, with the rumor of another well known company altering one of their grips and releasing it for SHOT. The MOE and MOE+ are already known items, but most people haven't laid hands on the + series yet.


Rails & handguards should be showing some new lines this SHOT. Most people are already aware of the MOE handguard, but I'm guessing production models are going to be shown and/ or released around Jan 09. Rails are going to see some new things, and from more than one company. Expect a few different models, and to cover a few different price points.


Slings are an item which tends to go unnoticed, but I think they are getting popular enough that we will start to see more and more people releasing them on a regular basis. While on that note, I think Gear Sector should release its GS-2P as a new sling with the adjustable 1 point layout. I've been using that, and I think its different enough that it deserves its own name. Most other convertible slings aren't worth the time it takes to type out the name (just my opinion).



There is probably more, but thats about all I have time for right now, I'm interested in hearing from you guys in what you would like to see, what rumors you've heard, and what is overplayed or shouldn't make it to the SHOT floor......

tac40
14 December 2008, 17:59
I would like to see more piston AR (223, 6.8mm, 6.5, 308)and 6.8mm gadgets and widgets out there. This include standards for 6.8mm, ammo and barrel production. I hope the economy will allow R&D to get busy with the next generation of military & LEO service weapons such as tasers, pistols and rifles-PDW style. Lastly, I hope they do this before congress change their collective minds about our rights.[:)]

Uglyduck
15 December 2008, 08:06
Hopefully we'll get a solid release date for the ACR and a hands on preview of the Massoud

Stickman
15 December 2008, 15:09
This just in.....


Think short term, and get ready for a good sized announcement. No further comment for right now.

sodak
15 December 2008, 18:48
This just in.....


Think short term, and get ready for a good sized announcement. No further comment for right now.

The moe handguards and mbus are shipping soon? At least that would be monumental to me (I would really like both to finish my rifle).

Uglyduck
15 December 2008, 21:26
This just in.....


Think short term, and get ready for a good sized announcement. No further comment for right now.

your getting good at the tease Stick

TehLlama
16 December 2008, 06:32
It'll be nice to see some actual scrutiny on the four new Colt models. Complete versions of all the IAR entries is something I'm quite interested in.

Even if they can't produce in the numbers needed to meet demand, a final iteration of the ACR/Masada will still garner a large percentage of the press. They'll probably announce progress on another caliber, and leave it at that.

Stickman
16 December 2008, 16:32
your getting good at the tease Stick



Confirmed for release of information this week..... [pop]




If I could comment on this now, I would.

Spectre1
16 December 2008, 22:33
This just in.....


Think short term, and get ready for a good sized announcement. No further comment for right now.


What? Magpul has figured out how to clone PMags and will be filling backorders? [:D]

Stickman
17 December 2008, 06:17
Info should be released sometime today....

JTrusty
17 December 2008, 07:10
I'm all ears.[:D]

Stickman
17 December 2008, 12:30
The new Noveske/ Magpul weapon info has been released, I'll drop a link here in a minute.



http://www.magpul.com/



http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?cat=77 (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-mplr-556&cat=77&page=1&search=&since=&status=)




WEVO announcement link (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5239#post5239)




.

Spectre1
17 December 2008, 12:43
OOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!


That's a sweet little F'nB!

Stickman
17 December 2008, 12:47
The below thread is for discussion of the "NOVESKE/ MAGPUL LIMITED EDITION MPL LIGHT RECCE". I should have got it up earlier, but I was busy posting pictures..... [BD]


http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5241#post5241

Stickman
17 December 2008, 12:55
New rumors heard today were for a manufacturer hinting about releasing a .50 at SHOT. I would take this one with a grain of salt as this group is often less than credible, but it is still a rumor.

Custom-X_Sponjah
17 December 2008, 19:32
As this will be my first SHOT Show, I hope I don't walk around leaving little traces of my unborn children everywhere..

CXS

Stickman
17 December 2008, 19:40
As this will be my first SHOT Show, I hope I don't walk around leaving little traces of my unborn children everywhere..

CXS



You will have a great time, and will probably end up tired at the end of the day. Just remember, there are lots of special parties that happen down there, so keep an eye out and ear open. I think more business is done after hours than is done on the SHOT show floor.

Spooky130
28 December 2008, 08:29
Here are my HOPES:

FN SCAR L&H - announce both are available in good quantities to keep the price below $2000.

KAC - announce their PDW is available to civilians in a factory-SBR model and non-SBR model. Again in good quantities. They are releasing their SR series of 5.56 guns with their folding FSB, dimpled barrel, and URX with their ambi lower - with an option for a standard lower.

Hornady - announce they have ammo for the KAC PDW at $200/1000 and in good quantities. Also they are lowering the price of their .223 practice ammo and 75 gr 5.56 TAP.

MagPul - announce they have been secretly building huge stockpiles of ALL their products and are currently shipping to distributors. Plus they have tripled their output of PMAGs, UBRs, ACSs, the MOE line, etc.

MagPul/Bushmaster - announce they have large amounts of ACRs shipping immediately with a price of less than $1500.

Federal/Speer/Remington/Winchester - announce they've found a way to reduce the price of quality 5.56 ammo down to $250/1000 and that they've tripled their out put. Same with Black Hills and they are taking orders for Mk262 ammo at $350/1000.

What I THINK will happen:
FN SCAR-Ls available Q1 or Q2 of 2009. MSRP of $2700 and selling at $3500+. Q4 09 or Q1 10 availability of SCAR-Hs, MSRP of $3000 and selling at $4250+

Spooky

Eric
28 December 2008, 15:39
Here are my HOPES:

FN SCAR L&H - announce both are available in good quantities to keep the price below $2000.

KAC - announce their PDW is available to civilians in a factory-SBR model and non-SBR model. Again in good quantities. They are releasing their SR series of 5.56 guns with their folding FSB, dimpled barrel, and URX with their ambi lower - with an option for a standard lower.

Hornady - announce they have ammo for the KAC PDW at $200/1000 and in good quantities. Also they are lowering the price of their .223 practice ammo and 75 gr 5.56 TAP.

MagPul - announce they have been secretly building huge stockpiles of ALL their products and are currently shipping to distributors. Plus they have tripled their output of PMAGs, UBRs, ACSs, the MOE line, etc.

MagPul/Bushmaster - announce they have large amounts of ACRs shipping immediately with a price of less than $1500.

Federal/Speer/Remington/Winchester - announce they've found a way to reduce the price of quality 5.56 ammo down to $250/1000 and that they've tripled their out put. Same with Black Hills and they are taking orders for Mk262 ammo at $350/1000.

What I THINK will happen:
FN SCAR-Ls available Q1 or Q2 of 2009. MSRP of $2700 and selling at $3500+. Q4 09 or Q1 10 availability of SCAR-Hs, MSRP of $3000 and selling at $4250+

Spooky
Step away from the pipe! ;)

Stickman
29 December 2008, 18:50
I've heard a few more murmurings about rails, and I'm starting to wonder if we won't see more than a few new types of rails introduced. Rails have gotten to a point where they are almost overlooked, so it will be interesting to see if its larger players entering the rail market with new offerings, or unknown/ smaller companies that are breaking out with (hopefully) new designs. Daniel Defense stole the rail hype for the past year or so with their OMEGA rail, so I'm sure there are people out there looking to one up them.


More comments heard regarding the upcoming CAA and Tango Down magazines, with big hopes for one, and not as much excitement for the other from most people. I've got to wonder at what point the military will establish a testing protocol for polymer mags, or if they ever will...


A couple rumors have been heard about VFGs from a few companies, but nothing concrete. There has been talk about offshoots from traditional VFGs, so we will have to see if there is anything outside the box this year in the VFG flavor.


Lots of comments regarding HK making their big anouncement about the 416, and similar talk about FN releasing the SCAR (which they are already late on). HK may have another announcement as well, but thats been lowkey.

gotm4
30 December 2008, 05:12
I've heard Glock will introduce the Glock 20SF at SHOT and possibly the 29SF.

Spectre1
30 December 2008, 08:16
I've heard Glock will introduce the Glock 20SF at SHOT and possibly the 29SF.

I heard that these models have been delayed due to the pending release of the Glock 5.56 carbine.


:P

Stickman
2 January 2009, 22:35
I've heard Glock will introduce the Glock 20SF at SHOT and possibly the 29SF.

At one of the last Glock armorer courses I went to, the lead instructor commented that he felt that Glock would switch over with all of their wide body pistols. The frames are the same, and they loose money by only keeping the features on one caliber.



I got a phone call today that mentioned some of the same info as email. The gist of which was a company rebranding suppressors and releasing them through another manufacturer. I know thats not all that exciting, but I've heard it from a few different people, so I figured I would mention it. I can see the interest from the parent company point of view. If this is legit, it simply means more money for them.


More talk today of additional weapon calibers being added. I'm not sure if this means a new caliber being launched at SHOT, or if this is more along the lines of weapons being rechambered for existing calibers. The AR15 already seems to have a pretty wide base of existing calibers to choose from, but there are only a few that have really caught on with the commercial ammunition market.

More rail talk today, possibly with some interesting twists, but nothing concrete and not solid enough to say much more.

Interesting comments have been made regarding electronics this year. I know that SHOT isn't geared exactly for the military market, but we may see smaller variants of existing items, possibly extending into the optic world as well. The Aimpoint T-1 has done very well, so its always possible that we will see similar offerings from other companies.

New scopes, but I'll admit I'm not up on scopes enough to remember most of the info.

More talk about new variants on pistols. Same stuff, same names, same stories, different versions of the same pistols.....? or at least thats how I've heard it, which makes no sense to me.

Army Chief
3 January 2009, 01:16
A couple rumors have been heard about VFGs from a few companies, but nothing concrete. There has been talk about offshoots from traditional VFGs, so we will have to see if there is anything outside the box this year in the VFG flavor.

I'm not in the habit of cross-pollinating, but this was a topic of interest recently on M4CN, in that I was also wondering what "the way ahead" might look like where VFGs are concerned.

My musings on this topic from earlier last month ...


I was thinking about VFGs earlier today and specifically wondering why everything on the market right now seems to essentially just be a variation on a theme. We've progressed to the short versions as we've learned to migrate beyond the "chicken choker" grip of the early days, but that is effectively where the evolution seems to have stopped.

I'm willing to concede that the reasoning behind this is simply that (a) there is no need to improve upon what works, or (b) that the more we discover about VFGs in actual practice, the less we even find ourselves using them. Still, as a forward hand stop, or as a reference point along the rail, it would seem that a VFG does still serve a purpose for the majority of shooters with railed carbines.

I've been paying attention to hand positioning, in particular, and it has occurred to me that "less might be more" where the typical VFG is concerned. Yes, we do want something there to gain purchase on, but we don't necessarily need a full post in most cases. Why, then, is that all that we see on the market?

What follows is nothing more than a concept -- and a very theoretical one at that. I'm not a designer, I'm not in the parts business, I haven't sent out any resumes, and I'm not looking to promote or market anything. What I'm proposing here doesn't even exist, and likely never will. I'm just a shooter trying to envision what (if anything) might logically come next in the evolution of the VFG.

To that end, I've mocked-up two views of a wedge-type VFG concept (below) that would seem to introduce some new possibilities while still maintaining a more or less standard support hand position on a railed carbine. There are, of course, two problems with this: (1) I'm only one shooter with a very abstract idea, and (2) the idea itself might not even have that much merit to begin with.

What I'm soliciting here is an opinion, or a dialogue in support of an opinion, about the possibilities that might exist with a concept of this nature. What would (or would not) work about it? Why might it present new advantages (or disadvantages)? How would it be a step forward (or backward)? Again, we aren't talking about sharpshooting an existing product; merely attempting to refine one idea among many.


http://m3resource.com/images/vfg_concept.jpg

Based upon a more or less standard hand position along the rail, I envisioned Concept 1 as the more viable of the two, as it would provide a natural wedge to wrap the middle, ring and pinky fingers around. Reversing the wedge obviously provides a very different profile, and even if the virtue of such a component would be limited to use as a forward rest for the front of the weapon against cover, it seems like there might be a use for something along these lines.

In the follow-on discussion at M4CN, KevinB indicated that at least one manufacturer has a nearly identical concept in T&E right now, so it will surely be interesting to see if that -- or another "alternate" VFG -- breaks cover at SHOT.

Any ideas as to what else might potentially be in the offing VFG-wise, Stick?

Chief

Stickman
4 January 2009, 12:05
Any ideas as to what else might potentially be in the offing VFG-wise, Stick?

Chief


VFG vs other style foregrips? I think we may be looking at items similar to what you posted, but using different shaped pieces to work as blocks as well.

At a certain point, items are going to need to fulfill more than one use, and the only people who seem to have done this well did it by putting the VFG and bipod together. While it might not be loved by everyone, it works, and most products no matter how good they are have detractors.

nc12215
4 January 2009, 16:12
I am still patiently waiting for Magpul to release the B.A.D. already!
SHOT would be a great place to do this (hint, hint). C'mon guys! I bought your PMags, I convinced the PD to get all the guys on the SWAT team PMAgs, I bought your MIAD grip. How about throwing me a bone.
PLEASE!
Dave.

Stickman
5 January 2009, 08:33
More pistol rumors continue to surface..... some interesting, some less so. If what I'm hearing is true, there may be some people less than impressed with some developments from a certain company.

Army Chief
5 January 2009, 10:43
At a certain point, items are going to need to fulfill more than one use, and the only people who seem to have done this well did it by putting the VFG and bipod together. While it might not be loved by everyone, it works, and most products no matter how good they are have detractors.

I would agree that the combination VFG/bipod concept has considerable merit, even if I would prefer a next-generation solution that was/is a bit more elegant than what we've seen on that front to date.


If what I'm hearing is true, there may be some people less than impressed with some developments from a certain company.

I realize this is largely a wait-and-see situation, but an admittedly uneducated guess might lead one to speculate that a "certain company" may not be on schedule for an early 2009 commericial release of a rifle not so very much unlike the ACR, for example.

Looking forward to the early reports from the show.

Chief

Stickman
5 January 2009, 11:45
AC,

Its a different company than Bushmaster. The ACR was reconceptualized to be a military service weapon. With the parent company Cerberus still being the one who is overseeing everything (this does not exclude Magpul from anything). If we look at who Cerberus owns, they could transfer the project to another facility if needed with a simple phone call. I'm not saying that I think its going to happen, but it points out that they have a large pool of resources, and the capabilities to produce a weapon as needed.

I do think we need to look at the Masada/ ACR as a weapon which has a new purpose, and that purpose will benefit us all in the end. There is no doubt that I would like to have one now, as would a lot of other people, however, after everything is all said and done I feel it will be worth the wait. Even if I didn't, it wouldn't change anything.

Army Chief
5 January 2009, 22:57
Stick,

You're entirely right, of course. I'm sure that Cerberus could hand the shooting public a Remington ACR in relatively short order, if that were their primary aim. Clearly, they've set their sights on a higher -- and more sustainable -- market base.

So, that leaves the armchair speculator pondering civil 416s that never seem like they are coming, SCARs that won't be priced anywhere near what the typical everyman can afford, or perhaps some major delay in the Sabre AUG.

I'm overreaching wildly, of course, but I'm so far removed from the American shooting scene right now that all I can really do is wonder -- and wait. :)

AC

Stickman
6 January 2009, 08:38
Stick,


So, that leaves the armchair speculator pondering civil 416s that never seem like they are coming, SCARs that won't be priced anywhere near what the typical everyman can afford, or perhaps some major delay in the Sabre AUG.


AC



My understanding is that HK will be making their announcement about the 416 and 417 going to the civilian market at SHOT. I'm not sure if they have a shipping date or not where people can expect to buy them, but I've heard this for awhile, so it should be pretty soon.

Army Chief
6 January 2009, 13:36
After seeing the nearly $4k street price for the German version of the 416 (http://www.frankonia.de/shop//_/search/mr+223+/start/0/view/product/window/1/sort/norm/isortiment/B%FCchsen/so/all/search.html)(MR 223), I'm almost hesitant to even ask what a US version will cost. Even with a domestic production arrangement (i.e. Wilcox), I still think the price of admission is going to be a bit staggering.

AC

Stickman
6 January 2009, 19:40
More info today, but nothing earth shattering. Expect colors aside from black to start being introduced. I'm not sure on the sales that a company can expect to reap with color changes, but the Daniel Defense (SOCOM RIS II mandated) FDE color has shown solid sales in their rail lineup.



Would FDE be the next big thing in complete weapons? What about Foliage Green?



A couple more rumors about a company trying to go after specific individuals who are outside the industry, or borderline industry at best. Not sure how that plays into SHOT, but evidently threats have been made. SHOT Show starts to sound like kindergarten after talking to some people. I'll have to get ahold of the possible victim and get an idea what the real word is from them. If its legit, the cops working the center may be earning their OT this year.

Army Chief
6 January 2009, 22:38
I'm simply too far away to keep my fingers on the pulse of the industry these days, but I am vaguely aware of some recent defamation litigation coming out of Norcross.

I've always found it vexing how readily we turn on one another in this business at times. This pistolsmith cannot abide another. This tactics trainer openly bad mouths a counterpart in some other part of the country. Company X openly slanders the products of a competitor ... it goes on and on.

Look, I can appreciate that "men of action" can -- and will -- have strong opinions at times, but I think you're entirely on point in observing that a lot of this is better suited to kindergarten than to the arms industry. Now, more than ever, a united front would be especially valuiable, no?

</rant>

Interesting obsevations on the color front, too. Might be something to that, and I could certainly see a market for a full FDE -- or even foiliage -- rifle. Of course, standardization could quickly become an issue, as manufacturers would inevitably try to gain the upper hand by offering "improved" shades, not unlike what LaRue has already done with UDE. Once we begin to stray too far from existing baselines (FDE, foliage, or even ranger green) things could get ridiculous in a hurry -- even if Team Magpul found some way to keep up with it all ... which to their credit, I suspect that they would. ;)

AC

Dutch
7 January 2009, 11:41
Army Chief,

Just consider it the opportunity to "accessorize" with shades of green and brown! I can just hear it now, "which color goes with my.....eyes, ruck, LBE, tqc sling"

You could cover all the shades and patterns and still someone will come up with one better, different or tacticooler than everyone else.

Dutch

Army Chief
7 January 2009, 23:00
[retrieves bollocks from floor, after having momentarily laughed them off]

I think you're really on to something, Dutch: after all, there is no reason why we can't be tactical AND gorgeous at the same time.

I can already envision the new Color Coordination boards going up on all of the leading tatical forums, with deeply insightful posts like "Dude, I just love the way that your new Multicam receiver draws out the subtle earth tones in your plate carrier and Shemagh. Simply fabulous."

Let's get right on that ... I'll ever volunteer to Moderate it on WEVO.

Or uh, not. ;)

AC

caporider
8 January 2009, 08:04
After seeing the nearly $4k street price for the German version of the 416 (http://www.frankonia.de/shop//_/search/mr+223+/start/0/view/product/window/1/sort/norm/isortiment/B%FCchsen/so/all/search.html)(MR 223), I'm almost hesitant to even ask what a US version will cost. Even with a domestic production arrangement (i.e. Wilcox), I still think the price of admission is going to be a bit staggering.

AC

Remember that prices in Europe usually contain a VAT that hovers around 20%.

Army Chief
8 January 2009, 11:14
Remember that prices in Europe usually contain a VAT that hovers around 20%.

In Germany, the VAT was historically 16%, though it changed a year or two ago to 19% -- so yes, you're entirely correct on that account. My larger concern has simply been for the abysmal Dollar/Euro exchange rate, which has pushed many European products out of the affordability range.

Granted, the 416 isn't going to be quite as heavily dependent upon German-sourced parts as some other weapons coming out of Oberndorf, but HK isn't exactly known for being a budget-conscious selection, either.

Chief

Stickman
8 January 2009, 11:21
New rumor, more info later today....

Army Chief
8 January 2009, 12:32
I'm trying to decide what's worse: having no idea what is going on at all, or knowing that there is something new on the street, but having to wait to find out what it is.

We need to put you on an RSS feed, Stick! :)

AC

Stickman
8 January 2009, 13:44
I'm trying to decide what's worse: having no idea what is going on at all, or knowing that there is something new on the street, but having to wait to find out what it is.

We need to put you on an RSS feed, Stick! :)

AC



We are so close I can almost touch it.....

FromMyColdDeadHand
8 January 2009, 16:59
On the FDE color, I saw somewhere that referenced Fed. Std. color number 30118, but from what I saw, it is a lot darker than the most FDE. Everyone does seem to have their own shade. As far as I know the FDE is a commercial color, I've never seen any MIL reference for it, or am I wrong?

To me, all these new piston and proprietary bolt systems are cool. But if stuff starts getting banned, us civy peons will have to worry about parts. Still, I don't think I could stop myself from buying a 308 SCAR or Massoud.

Stickman
8 January 2009, 17:29
The new Noveske/ Magpul carbine has been announced, and is available....

Army Chief
8 January 2009, 21:01
These will go very, very quickly ...

AC

Army Chief
9 January 2009, 06:49
... and so they did. 20 when I started the order process, and 8 when I finished. Two minutes later, I watched it hit one, and then there were none.

Now I've got to hope and pray that Sheri can make the switch for the Afghan that I ordered in October ... and paid for in advance at my request.

Oddly enough, I had to be up at 0530 this morning, and if I hadn't logged in precisely when I did, I would never have even seen this post. Providence? We'll see.

AC

Stickman
10 January 2009, 20:31
More new info in regarding SHOT 09. It sounds like there will be some new slings making appearances, with Magpul being rumored to release their version that they've mentioned a few times in the past. A few others are rumored to be arriving at SHOT as well.

I heard another rumor that someone was going to be held responsible for some things. If we think back over the past few years, it could be any number of manufacturers or persons upset with each other for personal issues, or it could be something much larger. I've got my own guesses, but will stay quiet on it for now.


I heard a comment earlier this week and was told to get ready for something outside the box. Sadly, I've got no additional info, and I don't know if it ties in to anything we've already mentioned.

Its pretty well rumored that Glock is releasing its 4th generation of pistols, and changes appear pretty minor from the image I've seen.

Stickman
10 January 2009, 20:41
I can't remember if we've already posted this or not, but Daniel Defense has announced they will be releasing their complete AR15 at SHOT. Along with the complete weapon will be a new VFG, new rail, and new rear sight (non-folding).

DD sounds like they will be selling this as a complete weapon only, and not selling lowers ( I don't blame them). The lowers are machined in house, and have a flared magwell.

txswat
10 January 2009, 22:10
Any idea what the VFG will look like?

Stickman
11 January 2009, 05:57
I've only seen a low quality image of one, it appears to be similar it size/ look to the TD model, though perhaps a little smaller. I need to emphasis that its a first look at a small picture, so that doesn't say much about it.

txswat
11 January 2009, 06:46
There are only so many ways to skin that cat. I am anxious to see how it locks onto the rail. Thanks!

Custom-X_Sponjah
11 January 2009, 17:53
I heard another rumor that someone was going to be held responsible for some things. If we think back over the past few years, it could be any number of manufacturers or persons upset with each other for personal issues, or it could be something much larger. I've got my own guesses, but will stay quiet on it for now.

Wouldn't have anything to do with armor would it?? [pop]

CXS

sodak
11 January 2009, 19:53
I'm interested to see the new products from trijicon that I've heard of.

parabellum
11 January 2009, 20:16
I'm interested to see the new products from trijicon that I've heard of.

mmmmm new Accupoints

i'm saving up already......

FromMyColdDeadHand
11 January 2009, 22:10
mmmmm new Accupoints

i'm saving up already......

How about a TA11H-223?

Go4broke
11 January 2009, 22:54
mmmmm new Accupoints

i'm saving up already......

I'm waiting to see the new Accupoints too. [:)]

Army Chief
12 January 2009, 01:15
Wouldn't have anything to do with armor would it?? [pop]

CXS

... or supressors, or optics mounts, or ...

Seems like there is a lot of "territory marking" going on in our industry these days. I guess that's nothing new, but I always hate to hear about it.

AC

parabellum
12 January 2009, 06:55
How about a TA11H-223?

that's what i had my heart set on, but man it's a pretty big optic.

but i'm planning on getting a TR24 and a TA33-8. i can't fit in another Trij scope, especially the mighty 11

NickDrak
12 January 2009, 10:28
Im hoping Eotech releases a new version of their 500 series optic with an upgraded (CR123) battery box that is also compatible with the LaRue & ADM QD riser mounts. (NO built-in riser/ARMS mount)

The new 1-4x Accupoint looks to be very promising as well.

joffe
12 January 2009, 15:25
Anything on the grapevine about the Vltor Fortis?

OUTLAW-ONE
12 January 2009, 16:07
or thr release of the magpul buis?

HaveBlue
12 January 2009, 16:11
HK will be showing their civi-AR. They will be marked MR 556 & MR 762. Manufactured in "New Hampshire".

joffe
12 January 2009, 16:41
HK will be showing their civi-AR. They will be marked MR 556 & MR 762. Manufactured in "New Hampshire".

By Wilcox Industries, then.

OUTLAW-ONE
12 January 2009, 17:04
HK will be showing their civi-AR. They will be marked MR 556 & MR 762. Manufactured in "New Hampshire".

if it looks like the MR223 that was released in Canada it is fugly and almost looks nothing the the 416.

I'm holding out for the release of the ACR, hopefully [puke]

sodak
12 January 2009, 17:11
I'm interested to learn more about Burris's new AR-332 prism sight.
I found a little info on them here. http://www.gunsandhunting.com/SHOT-09-2.html
I'm guessing at that price it's imported, but if it is at least somewhat durable, it might find its way onto one of my A2 rifles.

HaveBlue
12 January 2009, 18:25
if it looks like the MR223 that was released in Canada it is fugly and almost looks nothing the the 416.

I'm holding out for the release of the ACR, hopefully [puke]

It does not look like the MR223. The MR223 is built around German laws. I will be able to post a pic of the US rifle in a few days I think.

OUTLAW-ONE
12 January 2009, 20:08
It does not look like the MR223. The MR223 is built around German laws. I will be able to post a pic of the US rifle in a few days I think.

cool, are you going to SHOT? I did see pics of the so called U.S. version and it still didnt look like the 416. Do you know any details?

Stickman
13 January 2009, 07:26
The 416 and 417 civilian variants should both be released as far as I know, and I haven't heard anything about a retro un-416 looking version being released.


The upcoming Accupoint is one that has been talked about before last SHOT, so hopefully we will see it at this one. I had heard there was a delay, and that we should have seen it already, but there was no solid reason given as to what or why.

Eotech was supposed to release a 123 battery non-riser variant already, but MIL contracts may be what sidetracked that one. I've heard by a reliable source that their QC appears to be slipping currently, which is something that needs to be dealt with unless they want Aimpoint to own the market.

Stickman
13 January 2009, 07:29
Wouldn't have anything to do with armor would it?? [pop]

CXS



If we are both thinking about the same manufacturers and umbrella corporations, that isn't what I mean.

GIFFMANN
13 January 2009, 10:31
Rich hinted at the MBUS over on a thread on ARFCOM. Even posted pics of the "final" version.

As for the DD Vert Grip, it looks nice. About the same size as TD, but shaped differently. Uses a connection that reminds me of the KAC unit, but is different. Some of their other new items look real nice as well.

Stickman
13 January 2009, 14:35
I would expect to see the MBUS, especially after Richard dropped pictures a month or so ago. I would also expect to see a few other production items.

I would not expect the ACR to be released.



GIFF- Have you had a chance to handle the DD VFG"? If so would you rate the grip as a little smaller/ thinner than the TD version? It certainly appears so from what I've seen, but not by much.

OUTLAW-ONE
13 January 2009, 15:22
[QUOTE=Stickman;5634]I would expect to see the MBUS, especially after Richard dropped pictures a month or so ago. I would also expect to see a few other production items.

I would not expect the ACR to be released.

you dont think we will EVER see the ACR this year or just at shot? Do you think Bushmaster is doing this because of the Army trials or are just trying to sell more of the AR's so they can continue to dominate the AR market? I just think it sucks that Magpul made the masada for the civilian market and now we might never get it.[crazy]

GIFFMANN
13 January 2009, 15:37
Stick,
I've not held the TD, but Jay forwarded me the document on it since I can't hit SHOT due to our newborn kiddo. Looks to be a bit smaller than the TD and more symmetrical. It does incorporate storage as well. Texturing reminds me of an A2 grip.



I would expect to see the MBUS, especially after Richard dropped pictures a month or so ago. I would also expect to see a few other production items.

I would not expect the ACR to be released.



GIFF- Have you had a chance to handle the DD VFG"? If so would you rate the grip as a little smaller/ thinner than the TD version? It certainly appears so from what I've seen, but not by much.

NickDrak
13 January 2009, 15:40
Eotech was supposed to release a 123 battery non-riser variant already, but MIL contracts may be what sidetracked that one. I've heard by a reliable source that their QC appears to be slipping currently, which is something that needs to be dealt with unless they want Aimpoint to own the market.

I saw a proto of the upgraded battery box/CR123/NO riser Eotech this past summer at a training course. The battery box had a threaded battery cap that was on the side of the battery compartment. I have a 512 that I have not had any issues with, but the proto I saw would be a welcome improvement over the current design. Hopefully they will get it together....

Stickman
13 January 2009, 15:43
OO,

The ACR will be released, but its primary focus currently is the meeting military requirements for upcoming military trials.

I don't work for Magpul, Bushmaster, or Cerberus, but the above is my understanding of what is happening with the program.


The ACR will yield its final fruit to the civilian market, I don't have much doubt about that, but its time frame is what is in the air. I do question whether everyone at Bushmaster put their full force behind the project when it first arrived. Had that happened, I feel we would be looking at two variants, one ACR which would have been released, and one which would have been altered for MIL projects.

I would not have been opposed to seeing a earlier release of the ACR, but part of that would be for selfish reasons. I would have liked to have owned one back in late 2006 when I first had a chance to play around with it. HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that a revised ACR, developed for a MIL contract or around MIL constraints, may lead to an overall superior weapon down the road. If 20 years from now we are sitting around in cyberspace talking about how the Military ACR/ M-Whatever had a hard time getting off the group, people will probably laugh at us and call us liars.


Again, for clarity, these are my thoughts, and not those of the guys developing, creating, or working on the Masada/ ACR project, nor do I know in whos hands the final project will end up in the end.

joffe
13 January 2009, 15:56
Anything on the grapevine about the Vltor Fortis?

I'm sorry for reposting but I really want to know about this one, if anyone has anything.

OUTLAW-ONE
13 January 2009, 16:22
OO,

The ACR will be released, but its primary focus currently is the meeting military requirements for upcoming military trials.

I don't work for Magpul, Bushmaster, or Cerberus, but the above is my understanding of what is happening with the program.


The ACR will yield its final fruit to the civilian market, I don't have much doubt about that, but its time frame is what is in the air. I do question whether everyone at Bushmaster put their full force behind the project when it first arrived. Had that happened, I feel we would be looking at two variants, one ACR which would have been released, and one which would have been altered for MIL projects.

I would not have been opposed to seeing a earlier release of the ACR, but part of that would be for selfish reasons. I would have liked to have owned one back in late 2006 when I first had a chance to play around with it. HOWEVER, it is entirely possible that a revised ACR, developed for a MIL contract or around MIL constraints, may lead to an overall superior weapon down the road. If 20 years from now we are sitting around in cyberspace talking about how the Military ACR/ M-Whatever had a hard time getting off the group, people will probably laugh at us and call us liars.


Again, for clarity, these are my thoughts, and not those of the guys developing, creating, or working on the Masada/ ACR project, nor do I know in whos hands the final project will end up in the end.


I understand your comment, I value your opinion and was just curious what your thoughts on the ACR were. Also, I'm looking forward to your pics and reports from SHOT, will you be posting a SHOT thread here that you will be updating STICK?

Army Chief
13 January 2009, 22:45
It does not look like the MR223. The MR223 is built around German laws. I will be able to post a pic of the US rifle in a few days I think.

Obviously, there is much at stake here, but I believe it is worth making the observation that IF we get something other than the MR223 which is already available in other markets, we will be the only ones to see such a rifle. In every other country in which the MR223 has been released, it is the same product, which is to say, a fundamentally different thing than the 416 we've been expecting.

I've no idea what Wilcox is building, of course, and only time will tell; that said, the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting. Pricing remains a relevant concern, but if we're given the current MR223 formula with its non-standard upper/lower configuration, a lot of the enthusiasm for this product will tank in a hurry. One would think that HK would already be on top of this, but their history would seem to support wild conjecture at this point. I've no immediate need for this carbine, but my hope is that they get it right.

AC

Army Chief
13 January 2009, 23:02
The ACR will yield its final fruit to the civilian market, I don't have much doubt about that, but its time frame is what is in the air. I do question whether everyone at Bushmaster put their full force behind the project when it first arrived. Had that happened, I feel we would be looking at two variants, one ACR which would have been released, and one which would have been altered for MIL projects.

Hear, hear.

Given the manner in which we've managed our military weapons procurement programs over the past 100 years, I'm not sure that they haven't already needlessly missed an opportunity. I'm as hopeful as the next guy, but to stake everything on military trials which could well result in "validation of concept," but no contract or production decision -- well, that just strikes me as a bit short-sighted. We've done these trials before, and lest we forget, it wasn't so long ago that HK was virtually assured a contract for the triumphant (and now forgotten) XM8.

Now, I'll be the first to concede that a positive outcome in the trials will make my argument look rather foolish, but like the others who have already weighed in here, I was paying close attention when Magpul indicated that they were mindful of the timelines, and eager to get this into the hands of the shooting public. It would appear that they've been trumped in this, and production realities being what they are, I don't fault them for the current situation; even so, an opportunity is being wasted.

AC

GIFFMANN
14 January 2009, 08:09
Obviously, there is much at stake here, but I believe it is worth making the observation that IF we get something other than the MR223 which is already available in other markets, we will be the only ones to see such a rifle. In every other country in which the MR223 has been released, it is the same product, which is to say, a fundamentally different thing than the 416 we've been expecting.

I've no idea what Wilcox is building, of course, and only time will tell; that said, the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting. Pricing remains a relevant concern, but if we're given the current MR223 formula with its non-standard upper/lower configuration, a lot of the enthusiasm for this product will tank in a hurry. One would think that HK would already be on top of this, but their history would seem to support wild conjecture at this point. I've no immediate need for this carbine, but my hope is that they get it right.

AC

HK released info on their website regarding the MR556. Looks like they are using the pin spacing as the MR223.....If that's the case, then that is a big disaapointment.

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 08:14
the naming convention alone gives me pause, as HK doesn't appear to be making any attempt to distinguish the domestic US model from the one that the rest of the planet is getting.

AC

Heckler & Koch Inc. Newington, NH USA
The serial numbers start with US-XXX-XXXXXX

They went up on HK's website today.

http://hk-usa.com/rifles_mr556_general.html

http://hk-usa.com/rifles_mr762_general.html

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 08:21
The official press release;


HK to make new rifles in U.S. facility

Columbus, Georgia, January 15, 2009 - Firearms maker Heckler & Koch announced today that it will manufacture two new rifle designs in a newly opened US factory in 2009. The new rifles, the MR556 and MR762, are inspired and influenced by the HK416 and HK417, two highly acclaimed models designed and produced by Heckler & Koch’s Oberndorf, Germany plant.

The rifles will be produced at a new HK manufacturing facility in Newington, New Hampshire. The facility is co-located within an existing 70,000 square foot facility. HK began manufacturing pistols in the U.S. facility in late 2008.

"We’ve reached a major milestone in our objective to establish a production presence in the US," said Wayne Weber, executive vice president of the US business unit of Heckler & Koch. “The new HK45 pistol is the first HK product officially ‘Made in the USA’. It is our goal to strategically transfer production of select HK products to the U.S., with the HK45 Compact being the next product to come off the U.S. production line and shortly thereafter, the MR series rifles.

“It is our intention for all US-made HK products to equal the quality and reliability of the products made in Germany,” Weber added. “By establishing American-based manufacturing, we can compliment our German production and ensure that HK can be more competitive in the U.S., and comply with U.S. government contracts requiring US manufacturing. HK products made in the USA will be fully compliant with federal solicitations giving preference to domestically produced products. Additionally, it will provide a boost to the U.S. economy by creating more opportunities and business for many of our U.S. subcontractors and suppliers.”

The MR556 and MR762 models, caliber 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively, will be produced at the Newington facility from American and German made components. To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

The semi-automatic MR series rifles use an HK-proprietary gas piston operating system recognized for ultra reliability and will have German-made cold hammer forged barrels. These are some of the same key features critical to the success of the HK416 carbines used by leading US and foreign law enforcement and military customers. The HK416 is widely viewed as a leading candidate in a possible competition to replace the U.S. military’s current M4 carbine.

Stickman
14 January 2009, 08:23
I'm sorry for reposting but I really want to know about this one, if anyone has anything.



I would expect info to be released at SHOT 09, but I can check with KL Davis or give him a call. He is a good guy.

Stickman
14 January 2009, 08:32
The official press release;

The MR556 and MR762 models, caliber 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm rifles respectively, will be produced at the Newington facility from American and German made components. To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.



This is a gigantic failure in my eyes, and I don't see me ever owning one. The ability of the AR15 to be modular is one of its greatest assets, and purchasing an AR15 which will not yield modular capability make no sense for my own needs.

I wish them the best of luck, but intentionally making it fail to work with existing platforms has started it off on rocky ground, and has hamstrung it from the start.

Stickman
14 January 2009, 08:39
OUTLAW-ONE,


We will have a few SHOT related threads going. The idea is to have one gigantic thread with all pictures from SHOT, and AR15 specific threads as well. Last year we limited images that we put up, this year we want to put up MUCH more.

The Staff idea for 2009 is to increase the amount of threads on the board, and get more involvement in a few areas.

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 09:47
This is a gigantic failure in my eyes, and I don't see me ever owning one. The ability of the AR15 to be modular is one of its greatest assets, and purchasing an AR15 which will not yield modular capability make no sense for my own needs.

I wish them the best of luck, but intentionally making it fail to work with existing platforms has started it off on rocky ground, and has hamstrung it from the start.

To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

I can understand how people will feel this way. But, having to comply with German law is just fact. It's the only way this rifle gets made. This gun will have a 3500.00 MSRP. People will buy it because they want an HK rifle. If someone wants a Cold Hammer Forged Barrel Piston Upper they should get a LWRCi. I have one and I love it. The bulk of the cost of a piston gun is the upper. The US market demand right now (90% of it) is for complete 16 inch rifle. How many times have we read lately that company ABC is not selling lowers because they have so many orders for complete guns.
just my 2 cents
It's not like this is an SL8. Most all other AR parts will fit it.

Army Chief
14 January 2009, 09:57
I honestly believe we're being given a half-truth there. If this rifle is to be made in America (or largely made in America), then the German production and export requirements are largely moot.

HK can justify the bait and switch however they like, but I am persuaded that, had they wanted to give us a semiautomatic 416, they could have done just that. This strikes me as more of a production efficiency measure with the convenient side benefit (from their perspective) that HK components will now only fit on HK lower receivers.

Oberland Arms (http://www.oberlandarms.de) AR pattern rifles aren't compatible with ours either, but that is because they are being made for the German domestic market. To further suggest that German-made components destined for the US market cannot conform to standard specifications because of German law is misleading at best: OA has done this for many years with impunity.

AC

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 10:17
Army Chief, can't say I disagree. economy of scale without a doubt figure into this.

12131
14 January 2009, 10:53
So, according to HK, the upper can't be used on the standard AR lower. Does it even take standard AR mags?

OUTLAW-ONE
14 January 2009, 11:28
So, according to HK, the upper can't be used on the standard AR lower. Does it even take standard AR mags?

yes it does, if you look at the pic of the MR556 with kit you will see standard AR mags in the group.

Army Chief
14 January 2009, 12:37
PMAGs were an issue with the 416 before; I'm curious if things will have improved any in tihs version.

AC

Stickman
14 January 2009, 13:54
Call it a hunch Chief, but I think that parts been taken care of in a round about way.

Stickman
14 January 2009, 14:01
To comply with German government regulations, certain design changes were made in the rifles to make them adaptable to the American commercial sporting market.

I can understand how people will feel this way. But, having to comply with German law is just fact. It's the only way this rifle gets made.


What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

Paulo_Santos
14 January 2009, 15:47
What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

I thought that German law pertained to Germany. I don't know why it has anything to do with the US. Either way, I am not going to be getting one.

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 19:07
What is your relationship to HK or the weapon manufacturing community?


AC seems to have question with the German law portion, and I don't see how a weapon which wasn't designed for Germany would fall under this law, which I had thought involved exportation.


Not giving you a hard time at all, so please don't take it that way.

Stickman, no offense taken. I am not an official representative for HK or any other firearms manufacturer, I'm actually a rep in the automotive performance industry, but a (life long 51 years) firearm enthusiast with uncles who are Mil and FedLE. I have a personal friend who works at HK (what used to be called HK Defense, who knows what they call it today, that seems to change on a regular basis). AC I'm sure is correct in regards to the exact interpretation of the law. HK Germany is extremely sensitive to politics especially in the European Union. Example, a ton of shit went down after the whole Russia/Georgia skirmish because the Georgians had G36's and someone made a big stink about it in Germany. Even though those were sold through legitimate channels, someone at HKG didn't know about it and people got fired over it. HKG is adamant that there is a distance differentiation between a military assault rifle (416/417) and a civilian "sporting rifle" as defined by German law regardless of where it's sold. And of coarse the economics of a different castings of the upper and lower receiver for the US market only. Between politics (corporate& government) this is the only way HK-USA could have gotten HKG to build this gun in the US.

I hope that answers the question.

HaveBlue
14 January 2009, 19:10
PMAGs were an issue with the 416 before; I'm curious if things will have improved any in tihs version.

AC

Don't be surprised if these actually shipped with Pmags. I'm not saying they will, but it's been "kicked around"

Army Chief
14 January 2009, 22:36
Between politics (corporate & government) this is the only way HK-USA could have gotten HKG to build this gun in the US.

Therein lies the rub, I suppose, in that this is precisely what we were led to believe that they were doing. HaveBlue is correct in the sense that it is not "evil features" but rather interchangeability with a military weapon that defines what can or cannot be done under German law. I live in Germany, hunt in Germany, have a German Waffenbesitzkarte (weapons permit), and am familiar with the recent changes in the German law.

There is no doubt that what HK put out in their press release is true for their home market; I just don't believe that it has applicability for ours, since they have a US-based subsidiary. The easy out would have simply been to do as Colt Defense has always done: sell only to law enforcement suppliers, and let these distributors do as they see fit.

It is for this reason that I reject the notion that German law alone played a part in the decision. Had HK indicated that "production efficiencies being what they are, it did not make sense to build multiple versions of the same basic product, and in order to meet various EU requirements, the MR223 was modified so as not to be interchangeable with existing military AR pattern weapons" then I could have lived with that. Instead, they told us that German law somehow prevents them from giving us the rifle that we were told to expect -- a rifle which they have chosen to build in the US in order to comply with US laws. How is one connected to the other, unless economic forces are driving a corporate decision to type-standardize on a single design?

Many people don't know that when BMW builds a new 3 series coupe, for example, there are always three distinct versions produced: the ECE or "world market" model, the right-hand drive model for the UK, etc., and the US model which conforms specifically to our (often stupid) DOT and EPA requirements. In other words, the rest of the world basically gets the same car -- and we get one tailored to meet our certification requirements. Cars are not weapons, of course, but the point here is that BMW does this because they realize that the economic gain offsets the costs of dealing with production changes and variations in the law.

I have little doubt that HK could have done the same thing, released a "law enforcement carbine" and called it a day; instead, they brought their homeland version of a properly sporterized AR over, slapped a flash suppressor on it, and called it a day. In this, they really missed the bus, because our laws bear little resemblance to those in Germany, and you can be sure that if/when the next AWB is passed, the MR223 will be on it, along with every other military style rifle. The Germans base the military/civil distinction largely on cross-compatibility, but our laws make that particular cut based solely on appearances, as defined by specific design features.

Don't get me wrong: I wish HK well in this new venture, and I would rather see the MR 233 on the market than to not see it at all; that said, I just feel that they missed an opportunity and were rather disingenuous their explanation. We weren't "owed" anything, but I do believe that most of us were looking for a slightly different weapon ... one that would have been considerably easier to embrace.

AC

12131
15 January 2009, 22:27
I'm sorry for reposting but I really want to know about this one, if anyone has anything.
From gunblast.com, http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2009/Day1/DSC04893.JPG

Army Chief
15 January 2009, 23:36
Ah yes ... the Fortis could be something very special indeed. It's good to see VLTOR making progess!

AC

Venom
16 January 2009, 02:02
AC, great write up. Same way I feel about the situation.

bigcoastie
9 January 2010, 15:14
Bump for Pre-SHOT SHOW 2010 rumors, guesses, hopes etc..

Sak007
10 January 2010, 04:39
Magpul will figure out how to make 6.8 pmags & introduce the rubber miad ...........oh wait is this about SHOT SHOW 2010 ?[BD]

Army Chief
10 January 2010, 06:31
Good point -- I'll go ahead and start a new thread (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?p=16287#post16287) for SHOT 2010 banter.

AC