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alamo5000
5 April 2015, 15:22
I have been looking at the Griffin Armament Recce 5 for my first suppressor. I got my trust all sorted out just days ago and I had planned on calling up to order my suppressor from the Suppressor Shop tomorrow.

Sad thing is, now the thing is out of stock on their website and pretty much everywhere else I can find. The Silencer Shop had a great deal on them. It's no telling when they will get them back in stock. I will call tomorrow and find out. If it's not going to be very long then I can wait.

So this leaves me with the option to shop online and see if I can get a similar deal though. If I buy from the Silencer Shop I will need to take a trip to Austin which is about 2++ hours each way...but I also have to pay in state sales tax.

Or I found someone who will do the transfer for me (Class 3) for $50 and it's only 30 minutes away and I go by there all the time.

My question is, I have purchased firearms on gunbroker before and that's a snap. Suppressors, never. Seeing how there is a tax stamp in question how would such a purchase go down?

Silencer Shop was going to do all the Form 4 tax stamp stuff for me...

But anyway, if I get impatient or find out there is going to be a months on end delay for the Recce 5 to get back in stock and order online somewhere...what is the procedure?

There is another option out there... they have a Recce 7 in stock for less than $100 more... that is the .30 cal version...

On a 5.56 the Recce 5 knocks down the noise 38 Db on a 16" barrel. The Recce 7 knocks it down 31 Db (with 5.56).

Is 7 Db 'huge'? I am still leaning way more towards the Recce 5 but I am curious as to a 'relative sound difference' between those two numbers.

I guess that makes two separate questions [:D]

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 15:35
FWIW I have found another dealer (online) that has a similar price to that of the Silencer Shop and they are in stock there. With the cheaper $50 NFA transfer... if that is all that is the cost then the suppressor+tax stamp+ transfer fee= about $50 cheaper to do it that way.

But I don't know how any of that stuff works.

SwissyJim
5 April 2015, 16:43
I have only bought one from a dealer out of state, and he had to file a Form3 transfer to my local dealer, which added about 3 months if I remember correctly. Everything else has been bought thru my local dealer.

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 16:51
I have only bought one from a dealer out of state, and he had to file a Form3 transfer to my local dealer, which added about 3 months if I remember correctly. Everything else has been bought thru my local dealer.


This is the kind of information I was fishing for. I didn't know that. A form 3 and a form 4? So instead of 3 or 4 months it's going to be more like 6 or 8 months.... unless I can find one in state.

Too many forms.

I thought dealers could send back and forth to each other but I guess I am wrong. Well wrong in that I never knew in the first place.

Dang it. I got all ready to go with this and was going to pay for everything bright and early tomorrow morning but they are now out of stock at the only place I can find in Texas that has them in stock.

Is there any way to file form 4 and form 3 at the same time?

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 16:56
Then this brings me to the second question... if I get the .30 cal version... that is in stock. The difference is that I would be able to use the suppressor on any future .30 cal builds and on a 5.56... but based on their numbers at Griffin the Recce 7 is 7 Db louder than the Recce 5 for 5.56. I don't know enough about it to say, but is 7 Db a big deal? On the plus side I could build a .300 upper and be ready to go.

So there are pluses and minuses to it.

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 17:10
On the AAC website three of their suppressors, the 5.56 SD is build for 5.56 and says on a 16" barrel it is (-31 Db)... the same as the Recce 7. The SR5 and the M4-2000 both are listed as (-32 to 34 DB)...

Relative to the AAC SD I would not lose ANY performance (based on the supplied numbers from each manufacturer) but I would also have a multi caliber suppressor for basically $150 more.

gatordev
5 April 2015, 17:14
Form 3 transfer times vary, just like all the other times. A few months ago, it was 3-4 weeks. I don't know what it is right now, but it's probably not 3 months. I'd Google it and you'll see updated times with a little reading. I think it's around 6-8 weeks at the moment.

The process isn't much different than sending a Title I firearm to your FFL. Just order it, call your FFL and have them send their SOT to the seller (if they don't already have it on file) and then they should send the F3 off to the ATF. Like everything else, just make sure you go through a reputable seller. Again, Google can help with that, but obviously the bigger names are more well-known.

As for the 7dB difference...mathematically, that's a huge difference. Realistically, only you can really make the call. I was running a .30 cal can on my MK12 this weekend, and I don't notice a huge difference, especially out in the open, but that's me. I'm sure if you actually looked at the numbers, though, the .30 cal can was louder, at least on a meter.

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 17:35
Form 3 transfer times vary, just like all the other times. A few months ago, it was 3-4 weeks. I don't know what it is right now, but it's probably not 3 months. I'd Google it and you'll see updated times with a little reading. I think it's around 6-8 weeks at the moment.

The process isn't much different than sending a Title I firearm to your FFL. Just order it, call your FFL and have them send their SOT to the seller (if they don't already have it on file) and then they should send the F3 off to the ATF. Like everything else, just make sure you go through a reputable seller. Again, Google can help with that, but obviously the bigger names are more well-known.

As for the 7dB difference...mathematically, that's a huge difference. Realistically, only you can really make the call. I was running a .30 cal can on my MK12 this weekend, and I don't notice a huge difference, especially out in the open, but that's me. I'm sure if you actually looked at the numbers, though, the .30 cal can was louder, at least on a meter.

What is SOT? (sorry for the dumb question)

Ideally I would find a Recce 5 in stock... just a few days ago they had them in stock, in state, so within the past couple of days it went out of stock. I guess I need to call them back and see how long it will take to get back 'in stock'.

I hope not too long.

Slippers
5 April 2015, 18:50
3 dB is roughly double the sound pressure, and 10 dB is about double the perceived loudness. Gatordev is right, 7 dB is a big difference, but keep in mind that comparing suppressors is only relevant when they're tested on the same gun with the same ammo one after another.

For instance, silencer shop showed the omega being 6-7 dB louder than silencerco's posted data, but it isn't an apples to apples comparison since it was different ammo/barrels/weather.

If you're in the mid 130's then that's all you can really expect.

alamo5000
5 April 2015, 19:13
3 dB is roughly double the sound pressure, and 10 dB is about double the perceived loudness. Gatordev is right, 7 dB is a big difference, but keep in mind that comparing suppressors is only relevant when they're tested on the same gun with the same ammo one after another.

For instance, silencer shop showed the omega being 6-7 dB louder than silencerco's posted data, but it isn't an apples to apples comparison since it was different ammo/barrels/weather.

If you're in the mid 130's then that's all you can really expect.

There are too many formulas involved to figure out how they measure noise. [bash]

That said my MAIN purpose for getting a suppressor at all is for maximum noise reduction. Of course this is all within reason.

On Griffin's website they list the Recce 5 as 38 DB on a 16" barrel which is what it's going to be on. I would assume it would be relatively close. So let's just say my gun blasts 165 DB right now I would be at least at 130... but the sonic crack is about 140...

At this point I guess it's a matter of being patient and seeing when they will get back in. I will try to get that answer first and if they say 'two weeks' then that's ok. If they say 3 to 6 months that's a whole different story. Depending on what kind of answer I get I might explore other options (IE buying online somewhere).

I don't like being patient though. It takes too long.

Slippers
5 April 2015, 19:35
Buying suppressors will teach you some patience. :)

If I were you I'd avoid buying out of state. The form 3 on my saker added 2 months to my wait.

gatordev
6 April 2015, 04:26
SOT= Special Occupational Tax. I probably didn't use the term SOT 100% correctly, but basically the "fee" for the Class 3 dealer to make a transfer and/or sell. He pays an additional fee (I can't remember if it's a tax or not, but someone here can correct me) in order to hold that particular type of FFL.

alamo5000
6 April 2015, 11:54
A quick update: I talked to the guys selling the suppressor I want. They seem very good to go. The guy I talked to seemed like a very cool guy. According to him though he says with them form 3 is coming back like clockwork between 4 and 7 weeks.

I called the FFL and they will charge me a very reasonable rate but the one lady says they have form 3 that were sent off back in November for transfers to them and they still aren't back.

I don't know which side to lean towards.

On a side note the FFL said they will look into it about becoming a Griffin dealer....which I don't know if that would speed anything up.

I am leaning towards waiting until the silencer shop has them back in stock. It eliminates all form 3 worries if I do.

On the other hand I am tempted to buy the one there and get it on... Either way you slice it I am gonna have to wait longer than I thought.

Former11B
12 April 2015, 12:44
The Recce 7 will add an additional 2" roughly and 5oz over the 5...noticeable differences. And with the dB reduction decrease, I'd say it's a no-go. NFA is a waiting game so DONT COMPROMISE. Find what you want, pay a little more for the good stuff, and you'll have no regrets. It's not like you can return it or easily resell it if you're disappointed.

Not that the Recce 7 is a bargain can by any means but it IS a compromise. It doesn't do what the 5 does for your needs nearly as well. I'm told a 4dB difference can be heard so 7dB should be noticeably louder...then there's the added weight and length...

I can't find one in state so I think I'm about to Form 3 one from NC

alamo5000
12 April 2015, 13:18
The Recce 7 will add an additional 2" roughly and 5oz over the 5...noticeable differences. And with the dB reduction decrease, I'd say it's a no-go. NFA is a waiting game so DONT COMPROMISE. Find what you want, pay a little more for the good stuff, and you'll have no regrets. It's not like you can return it or easily resell it if you're disappointed.

Not that the Recce 7 is a bargain can by any means but it IS a compromise. It doesn't do what the 5 does for your needs nearly as well. I'm told a 4dB difference can be heard so 7dB should be noticeably louder...then there's the added weight and length...

I can't find one in state so I think I'm about to Form 3 one from NC

Yes, I agree. I am not really that much into patience but I guess I have no choice. I would rather have what I really want than to get a jack of all trades master of none kind of thing.

I have a link to a Recce 5 at a really good price out of Indiana if you're interested. I talked to the guy and he sounded really cool. I was about an inch off of having them form 3 it but I guess in the end it's a risk of time that I didn't want to mess with... at some point they will be back in stock here... but I could envision myself doing the form 3 and having it take 6 months just for that part and I didn't want to chance it. Either way I will be waiting so it is what it is.

I also sent a local dealer to Griffin... they are applying to become a stocking dealership... they emailed me an update saying they sent everything to them... if they get them in stock there that will save me a trip to Austin which is over 2 hours from me each way...even if they are remotely in the ballpark on price then that could be interesting.

I don't mind buying more than one suppressor so if I get the Recce 5 and later on if I build something bigger then so be it. I can buy a can for that too. But as you said, being a first time purchase and 'it's not like I can just return it' so that stuff just makes me kind of nervous, hence all the questions.

I did entertain the idea of going with a bigger multi caliber suppressor but in the end the idea was pretty short lived especially since I won't be swapping it between guns. I don't have another AR caliber (yet) but I am not ruling that out...but if I go there I will get something meant for that when I do it. As for now I am having plenty of fun with what I have.

Former11B
12 April 2015, 13:41
Any idea what the Indiana dealer is charging?

The Form 3 process sounds more complicated than it really is, although it seems bureaucratically unecessary...just another ATF hassle

alamo5000
12 April 2015, 14:25
PM Incoming.

Former11B
13 April 2015, 16:45
You need to make your buy sooner than later with your trust, if not a couple cans (like a .22 or 9mm also) with 41P looming

UWone77
13 April 2015, 16:56
Any idea what the Indiana dealer is charging?

The Form 3 process sounds more complicated than it really is, although it seems bureaucratically unecessary...just another ATF hassle

I never understood the Form 3. You already have to go through the ATF legal license/fee's to make and sell suppressors. The fact they have to go through another ATF Form 3 transfer to go from dealer to dealer makes no sense to me.

alamo5000
13 April 2015, 18:18
You need to make your buy sooner than later with your trust, if not a couple cans (like a .22 or 9mm also) with 41P looming

I called Suppressor Shop today and they told me that they estimate to get the Recce 5 back in stock in a month. I am kind of late to the game here but even with 41P in place I can stop across the street on my lunch break and get the CLEO signature. It's no problem at all. The sheriff's office and my office are less than 1/2 a mile from each other. They already told me 'when you get the forms just bring them in and we will get it done'. Either way 41P goes I am covered on the suppressor thing.

I seriously would love to get a good 9mm can, a .45 can, a .22 can, and a few others. I just can't afford to drop 5 or 6 grand in one swoop like that. I wish I had that kind of money. I will probably do a 9mm next since I already have the gun I would like to suppress (sig P226) in that caliber.

My main issue is that I have a job that pays me 20% of my previous pay. 80% pay cuts suck. I really need to come up with some way to make decent money. The whole economy thing, job market thing, etc etc is a real hot button issue for me. It just pisses me off.

If I get the money coming in I wouldn't bat an eye to drop cash on multiple purchases and a big safe.


I never understood the Form 3. You already have to go through the ATF legal license/fee's to make and sell suppressors. The fact they have to go through another ATF Form 3 transfer to go from dealer to dealer makes no sense to me.

It does not make any sense in the rational logical sense of the word. None of it makes sense if you ask me. Even having this stuff on the list at all is just ignorance.

Form 3 however is just completely stupid. You have dealers who have crawled across broken government glass to be able to deal in Class 3 items but one cannot transfer to the other without getting yet another approval.

Do they need to Form 3 to go from the manufacturer to the dealer or no? I would be shocked if there wasn't some kind of layers of bullshit between them.

alamo5000
13 April 2015, 18:37
No matter how I look at it, if I form 3 that one over I am look at 6 weeks minimum, probably more, and a risk of it taking a lot longer. If I wait until Suppressor Shop to get them back in stock... they told me it will be about a month.

Long story short I put my bet on probably one of, if not the biggest suppressor dealership in the USA to be able to get something back in stock in a reasonable amount of time. No matter how it goes I am forced to wait. The only real difference is possibly getting a CLEO signature should they try to implement 41P.

That said I don't know HOW they could realistically do 41P. If they sell a suppressor to a corporation, every officer in the corporation doesn't have to have a background check. Under the law everyone has to be treated equally. Trusts and corporations are both 'legal persons' so you can't treat one one way and the other the other way and not expect some serious legal challenges.

If they do implement 41P the ATF will be getting sued in every jurisdiction in the US and they will have an indefensible position legally speaking. I am pretty sure 41P won't go anywhere because they would have to apply the same rules to all legal persons across the board. If they try that crap it will be met with all kinds of hell.

Slippers
13 April 2015, 18:54
41p is a long ways off. They still have to respond to every submitted comment. An extra month wait right now shouldn't be a concern.

alamo5000
13 April 2015, 19:11
41p is a long ways off. They still have to respond to every submitted comment. An extra month wait right now shouldn't be a concern.

I am somewhat tempted to get a 9mm suppressor for my P226. By the time I get a threaded barrel and a tax stamp we're talking another grand. I don't mind dropping the coin for it, but the rifle is my priority for now. Dropping two grand in one swoop would be doable but it would blow my budget.

I seriously need to get more money.

As for 41P I would venture to say that from what little I know about it, on the surface they would have to get pretty darn creative to avoid getting sued to no end on it.