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rob_s
8 April 2015, 03:42
I posted this elsewhere and thought I'd re-post here for discussion.

Long post ahead. Essentially I'm posting this to have a place to track my progress and thoughts as I work through this. The last project apparently was useful to a lot of people, so maybe this will be too.

Those of you that know me might recall my "tale of two carbines" post from quite a few years ago. If not, it's pretty much re-posted here (http://tacticalyellowvisor.net/8301/11801.html).

These guns, and many of the concepts contained therein, have stood up surprisingly well since inception. A few things have changed that matter (I pretty much use X300s for white lights, exclusively, now) and several things have changed that don't (stocks, VFG length, etc.). However, since that time, my side-job as blogger and magazine writer meant that a LOT of new hotness came through my hands. What I found was that these two carbines stood up to all that new hotness without batting an eyelash. More recently, there have been improvements in a couple of tech areas (silencers, optics, and attachment methods) and changes in my own opinions (dedicated suppressed gun vs. on/off can) and interests (precision shooting, 3-gun) such that I felt an overhaul was in order.

However, a few of the concepts have stood up well for me. Primary among them is maintaining as much commonality between the guns as possible, especially where it comes to the shooter interface (grips, stocks, controls, trigger, sight picture, etc.). I was also rather happy with the color-coding since it was a zero-cost option and helped me think about the guns in my mind but also spot them in the safe more easily. Plus, black guns are boring. However, I'm not into dips, drips, and coatings because they are added cost and I don't think the difference matters enough to actually pay for it.

I decided to go with replacing the uppers and other parts rather than buy whole new carbines because I have two factory Colt SBR lowers that are big-pin, and one non-NFA big-pin lower (we're talking about FCG pins, not takedown/pivot pins, for those that don't understand). So it seemed prudent to keep the lowers, and engage in some fiddle-fart to get what I want. If I were starting from scratch I might be inclined to simply buy a couple of Daniel defense or KAC rifles in the lengths I want and call it good.

I'm still working out the accumulation of parts and the swap-over, but here's where I'm headed.

First, the use cases:

Green Gun
-"Home Defense"/SHTFantasy
-Hog Hunting (buggy)

Grey Gun
-Competition (short courses)
-New shooters (women, kids, with both irons and RDS)
-Training classes ("carbine")
-Travel (where legal)

Tan Gun
-Hog Hunting (stand/static)
-Competition (long courses & Precision)
-Training ("scoped" or "precision")
-Plinking (public range, shoot from bench, new shooters or non-shooters)

Then the configurations. Most of this is in the planning stages, and I'm working through the options. There are a LOT more choices today than there were when I did this the last time.

Green Gun
-10.3" DD Barrel ('http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2684151347/daniel-defense-barrel-ar-15-pistol-556x45mm-nato-government-contour-1-in-7-twist-hammer-forged-chrome-lined-chrome-moly-matte-pre-ban') (shortest I'm willing to go)
-9.0 BCM KMR ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-KMR9-Free-Float-Handguard-p/bcm-kmr-9-556-blk.htm') (standardized across all three guns with adjustment for length)
-BCM BCG ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm-bolt-carrier-group-auto-mp.htm') (good quality and consistency with other guns)
-BCM Gunfighter CH ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUNFIGHTER-Charging-Handle-GFH-Mod-4-p/bcm-gfh-mod-4-556.htm') (mild gasbusting ability, better latch)
-Silencerco Omega ('http://www.silencerco.com/products/omega/') (allows mounting on all three guns, plus any other rifle I might buy)
-SLR Rifleworks Adjustable Gas Block ('http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=57_103_104&product_id=124') (to tune gas to run fulltime suppressed, not 100% set on this make)
-Brake mount for can ('http://www.store.silencerco.com/collections/center-fire-rifle/products/specwar-trifecta-muzzle-brake') (to protect blast baffle, gun will not be shot unsuppressed)
-BCM Fixed Keymod VFG ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Vertical-Grip-Mod3-KeyMod-FGreen-p/bcm-vg-km-mod-3-fgrn.htm') (no need to remove)
-Noveske Keymod Covers ('http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/polymer-accessory-pack') (best covers I've found)
-CMC Trigger ('http://www.cmctriggers.com/') (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
-Magpul BAD ('https://www.magpul.com/products/b-a-d--lever%C2%AE-battery-assist-device-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4') (on all guns, but for this one works well with Redimag)
-Redimag ('http://www.redi-mag.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=50') (spare mag for HD)
-Magpul CTR stock ('https://www.magpul.com/products/ctr%C2%AE-carbine-stock') (QD socket plus ability to be locked for LOP)
-Magpul MOE SL Grip ('https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-sl%E2%84%A2-grip-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4') (more vertical orientation, but includes backstrap)
-Aimpoint PRO ('http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/all-products/product-singleview/product/PRO/') (I find the 30mm to be more forgiving)
-Aero Precision mount ('http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=217') (no need to remove)
-BUIS (not settled on make yet leaning towards front ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Sight-Front-DH-p/bcm-front-sight-m4-1361dh.htm') and rear ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Sight-REAR-DH-p/bcm-rear-sight-1301-dh.htm') from BCM)

Grey Gun
complete upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-11-5-Carbine-Enhanced-Lightweight-FLUTED-p/bcm-urg-11elwf-kmr10.htm)
-11.5" BCM ELW-F (allows slightly longer handguard for more flexibility)
-10.0 BCM KMR (standardized across all three guns with adjustment for length)
-BCM BCG (comes with upper)
-BCM Gunfighter CH (better latch)

-Hider mount for can (http://www.store.silencerco.com/collections/center-fire-rifle/products/specwar-trifecta-flash-hider) (gun will rarely be shot suppressed, but why not have option)
-BCM Fixed Keymod VFG ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Vertical-Grip-Mod3-KeyMod-FGreen-p/bcm-vg-km-mod-3-fgrn.htm') (no need to remove)
-Noveske Keymod Covers ('http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/polymer-accessory-pack') (best covers I've found)
-CMC Trigger ('http://www.cmctriggers.com/') (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
-Magpul BAD ('https://www.magpul.com/products/b-a-d--lever%C2%AE-battery-assist-device-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4') (on all guns)
-Magpul MOE stock (https://www.magpul.com/products/moe%C2%AE-carbine-stock) (will add QD socket, no need to be locked for LOP)
-Magpul MOE SL Grip ('https://www.magpul.com/products/moe-sl%E2%84%A2-grip-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4') (more vertical orientation, but includes backstrap)
-Aimpoint H1 (http://www.aimpoint.com/us/products/all-products/product-singleview/product/Micro%20H-1/?cHash=7ba15c5461f86d4ef5629a29e7331c45) (lighter)
-Scalarworks mount (https://scalarworks.com/shop/optic-mounts/ldm-micro/) (light, QD for use with irons only)
-BUIS (not settled on make yet leaning towards front ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Sight-Front-DH-p/bcm-front-sight-m4-1361dh.htm') and rear ('http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Folding-Sight-REAR-DH-p/bcm-rear-sight-1301-dh.htm') from BCM)

Tan Gun
complete upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SS410-16-Mid-Upper-KMR13-p/bcm-urg-mid16-ss410-kmr13.htm)
-16" BCM stainless (for just a bit more precision potential)
-13.0 BCM KMR (in this case, I want just a little barrel protruding for ports, etc.)
-BCM BCG (comes with upper)
-BCM Gunfighter CH (better latch)

-Brake mount for can ('http://www.store.silencerco.com/collections/center-fire-rifle/products/specwar-trifecta-muzzle-brake') (to protect blast baffle, gun will not be shot unsuppressed)
-BCM QD Keymod VFG (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Vertical-Grip-Short-KeyMod-FDE-p/bcm-vg-s-km-fde.htm) (to be removed to avoid hanging up on dump barrel, when encountered)
-Noveske Keymod Covers ('http://www.shopnoveske.com/products/polymer-accessory-pack') (best covers I've found)
-CMC Trigger ('http://www.cmctriggers.com/') (standardized across guns, one of few that makes for big pins, pull weight by use case)
-Magpul BAD ('https://www.magpul.com/products/b-a-d--lever%C2%AE-battery-assist-device-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4') (on all guns)
-BCM A5 receiver extension (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Intermediate-Buffer-System-A5-Kit-p/bcm-intermediate-shk.htm) (to further reduce recoil for competition)
-Magpul STR stock (https://www.magpul.com/products/str%C2%AE-carbine-stock) (will close on A5, provides nicer cheek weld)
-Magpul MOE K2+ Grip (https://www.magpul.com/products/moe%C2%AE-k2-grip-%E2%80%93-ar15-m4) (seems better for "precision" but matches the grip angle of the SL)
-1-6 Optic (not settled on this yet, leaning Leupold (http://www.leupold.com/hunting-shooting/scopes/vx-6-riflescopes/vx-6-1-6x24mm-30mm-multigun-cds/))
-Aero Precision mount (http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=206) (no need to remove)
-BUIS (not settled on make yet, but will be folding offset)

Slippers
8 April 2015, 05:42
Looks like a nice trio. I saw your facebook post giving the rundown on all the forums, so since this is weapon evolution, where are the pics? :)

(Yes, I realize they aren't done yet, just couldn't resist a jab)

Jerry R
8 April 2015, 06:33
Very nice trio Rob - will be following your progress with great interest

rob_s
8 April 2015, 07:19
Looks like a nice trio. I saw your facebook post giving the rundown on all the forums, so since this is weapon evolution, where are the pics? :)

(Yes, I realize they aren't done yet, just couldn't resist a jab)

Right now the Grey gun should be narrowing down on being "done" by the end of this week and the pics will commence!

I'm chomping at the bit to order the upper for the Tan gun as well.

KevinBLC
8 April 2015, 07:25
rob, I thought you didn't like suppressors or were moving away from them? Maybe I read it wrong somewhere. Going with the omega because of weight vs like the specwar? Also, your thoughts on using CMC triggers vs say geissele?

GOST
8 April 2015, 07:34
Like Jerry said, look forward to see how these progress. The grey one has my interest the most.

rob_s
8 April 2015, 07:41
I don't, generally speaking, like cans. However, the advent of .308 cans in shorter/lighter packages allows me to spread the cost of the stupid across a lot of guns instead of localized to just one gun, or having to buy multiple cans. Having a <16 oz, <7" .308 can means I can use is for hogs, (possibly deer in florida soon), home defense, plinking, etc. Two years ago I would have had to buy 3 different cans for that.

RE: the CMC vs. the Geissele, I'd prefer to use the latter but finding big-pin options available is difficult.

docsherm
8 April 2015, 08:12
Why the 10.3" and 11.5" barrel lengths? Seams like they are very close to the same setups and can me interchanged with very little difference. What was your rational on thus choice?

rob_s
8 April 2015, 09:35
Why the 10.3" and 11.5" barrel lengths? Seams like they are very close to the same setups and can me interchanged with very little difference. What was your rational on thus choice?

I no longer believe that having a single upper/gun that runs suppressed/unsuppressed is a good idea. Hence, if I want a suppressed gun, I want it set up to run only suppressed. By tuning the gas system for this I get a cleaner running suppressed shooting experience, hence the adjustable gas block. I'm not looking to ever re-adjust it, I want to tune it and forget it. Another option would be to buy a 14.5" barrel and cut it down to get a more ideal gas port size, something I may still do.

If you look at the use-cases, the 10.3" is the fulltime suppressed gun for hog hunting and "home defense". The 11.5" gun is for training, competition, and new shooters where the reduced weight it more appreciated but where I feel better about an 11.5" barrel due to potential reliability concerns but also to get the associated longer handguard.

docsherm
8 April 2015, 09:48
I can see where you are going with this. What made you come to the conclusion that you no longer want to put on and take off a can on an upper?

BC98
8 April 2015, 10:16
For setting up a dedicated suppressed gun, you may also want to look at the Baby Govnah gas block from MicroMOA. I have considered it for taming overgassed barrels. You may not like the need to pull parts off to tweak the port diameter, but it is truly a set it/forget it option with not parts to wear or fail.

http://micromoa.com/baby-govnah/

rob_s
8 April 2015, 11:10
I can see where you are going with this. What made you come to the conclusion that you no longer want to put on and take off a can on an upper?

Well, that's not *exactly* what I said. I will take the can on and off from time to time to use on other guns, but the 10.3" gun will only get fired suppressed. Or, more correctly, the 10.3" upper will only get fired suppressed, as I may swap the uppers across the SBRs depending on whether I want the heavier trigger and Redimag or the lighter trigger and lighter weight without the Redimag.

Ideally, I'd put a direct-thread can on the 10.3" upper and be done. But I don't think that's a cost-effective solution since it will basically do what my current can does, which is sit in the safe and not get shot. I'm hoping that with the right can and mounts I'll get more use out of the can but still have a suppressed SHTFantasy gun.

docsherm
8 April 2015, 11:24
OK, so why are you only firing the 10.3" suppressed?

Deckard
8 April 2015, 11:44
Why the aero mount opposed to something like NF rings?

(bad cs with aero)

rob_s
8 April 2015, 11:44
Having a gun that is tuned to run suppressed is better than not.

ETA:
To elaborate...

Shooting suppressed is dirty, smelly, and gassy. While this generally cannot be completely eliminated, it can be mitigated. There are several ways to do this (gas diverting forward assists, caulk, etc.), but the best, IME, is to tune the gun to input the least amount of gas necessary to the BCG. Tightening up the gas port is the best way I'm aware of to do that. Trying to tighten up the gas port to shoot suppressed and opening it back up to shoot unsuppressed is a no-go. For one, it's not tuned to the particular can/barrel/ammo/etc. so it has to allow in more gas on each setting that it would if it were custom tuned. For two, the fouling that gets in to these systems tends to lock up the moving parts eventually.

Also, if the can is going to come on and off the gun, having a brake on a short gun just isn't something I'm interested in. However, if I can get a "saccrificial baffle" in the form of a brake mount, then that's a good thing.

Eric
8 April 2015, 11:56
I'm surprised to see the BAD listed, but at least it's consistent across the three carbines. When it first came out there was a lot of excitement over the BAD, but like many other bolt-on goodies, were later removed. Reasons seemed to include function issues and trying to run the BAD on one gun, but a standard setup on others, causing an award learning curve.

Txfilmmaker
8 April 2015, 12:12
Thanks for sharing. This is very interesting and I look forward to reading your blog, as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rob_s
8 April 2015, 12:42
I'm surprised to see the BAD listed, but at least it's consistent across the three carbines. When it first came out there was a lot of excitement over the BAD, but like many other bolt-on goodies, were later removed. Reasons seemed to include function issues and trying to run the BAD on one gun, but a standard setup on others, causing an award learning curve.

Yep, I've been on the BAD wagon since earlier than probably anyone else. I had one of the 5 prototypes that Travis handed out before he even joined Magpul. I've been using them ever since, on and off.

Putting everything else aside, with the Redimag the BAD is almost a necessity for me, so adding it to the other two guns seems logical.

Slippers
8 April 2015, 14:39
You're going to love the BCM 11.5". Mine is almost identical, just a normal barrel since I got it before the ELW was out. The 10" KMR is just right, even for my monkey arms. It's probably my favorite "fun" upper, and I use it about half the time suppressed. At my last family gathering it was the favorite, especially among the women, who liked the light weight (without the can, of course).

DutyUse
8 April 2015, 17:55
You have great taste in gear, good-luck with them Rob

alamo5000
8 April 2015, 19:19
Since I've been suppressor shopping lately have you looked at the Griffin Armament Recce 7? It will do all that you want, the mount seems more solid, and it will save you around $200 bucks or more when you factor in muzzle devices. Griffin includes one but for the Omega you have to buy them separate.

I figure it's about $240 cheaper to go with Griffin and they seem very solid. Plus each muzzle device is interchangeable across calibers. So you can have a .223 taper mount and a .308 taper mount and it's no difference.


More comments/thoughts to come as I read more and think about it....

Deadwing
9 April 2015, 00:59
Good stuff. I'm looking forward to reading more as things progress.

rob_s
9 April 2015, 02:20
Since I've been suppressor shopping lately have you looked at the Griffin Armament Recce 7? It will do all that you want, the mount seems more solid, and it will save you around $200 bucks or more when you factor in muzzle devices. Griffin includes one but for the Omega you have to buy them separate.

I figure it's about $240 cheaper to go with Griffin and they seem very solid. Plus each muzzle device is interchangeable across calibers. So you can have a .223 taper mount and a .308 taper mount and it's no difference.


More comments/thoughts to come as I read more and think about it....

Street price for the Omega is $880, and it comes with one mount.
http://www.silencershop.com/silencers/7-62mm-rifle/silencerco-omega-7-62.html

They also have both brake and hider mounts, available in both 5.56 and 7,62 thread pitches. And they don't require thread protectors, I don't believe.
http://www.silencershop.com/accessories/muzzle-brakes/silencerco-specwar-muzzle-brake.html
http://www.silencershop.com/accessories/flash-hiders/silencerco-specwar-flash-hider.html


Finally, the Griffin is 7.6" long and 19 oz vs the Omega's 7.09" and 14 oz.

Slippers
9 April 2015, 04:21
Careful on the omega weights. It's 14 oz with direct thread. Add a few more for the ASR mount (plus the muzzle device weight). There was a post on arf where silencershop listed all the different combinations with the end caps and mounts.

rob_s
9 April 2015, 04:57
Careful on the omega weights. It's 14 oz with direct thread. Add a few more for the ASR mount (plus the muzzle device weight). There was a post on arf where silencershop listed all the different combinations with the end caps and mounts.

Thanks for the heads up. Looks like I'm good through. The muzzle device is a net-zero to me since the gun(s) will have some sort of optimal device on them regardless (hiders where hiders make sense, brakes where brakes make sense). I think this is the breakdown youre referring to. I think the red/bold I indicate below is the configuration I'll have.

11.3oz without any mount and anchor brake installed
13.5oz with direct thread mount and anchor brake installed
14.8oz with the ASR Mount not including muzzle device and anchor brake installed

1.5oz weight of the anchor brake
2.2oz weight of the direct thread
3.4oz weight of the ASR
3.4oz weight of the muzzle brake

ETA: weight totals per configuration

Omega can + direct thread mount + anchor break (end cap/break) = 13.5 oz.
Omega can + ASR mount + anchor beak (end cap/brake) = 14.8 oz.

UWone77
9 April 2015, 06:37
Since I've been suppressor shopping lately have you looked at the Griffin Armament Recce 7? It will do all that you want, the mount seems more solid, and it will save you around $200 bucks or more when you factor in muzzle devices. Griffin includes one but for the Omega you have to buy them separate.



You shoot one yet?

alamo5000
9 April 2015, 07:55
You shoot one yet?

Not yet but its not from a lack of trying. I've read and looked up ad researched quite a bit though. I've talked to about 5 owners and 3 people at two major dealers. The comments from the guys at the dealers were "one of the best ones we carry" to "this is what I use on all my personal guns" "its great" and other people would tell me similar things....and they had absolutely no skin in the game whatsoever. One guy said "I would put this up against anything on the market" et etc....and basically the consensus is that its a steal. Given I was asking g about the Recce 5 but most of them had the same sentiments about the recce line as a whole and they said so.

I'm pretty OCD about stuff sometimes but I've heard enough to make up my mind and give it a try. I would have already paid for it but they are on backorder and I don't want to get one from out of state and have months more wait time.

UWone77
9 April 2015, 08:22
Not yet but its not from a lack of trying. I've read and looked up ad researched quite a bit though. I've talked to about 5 owners and 3 people at two major dealers. The comments from the guys at the dealers were "one of the best ones we carry" to "this is what I use on all my personal guns" "its great" and other people would tell me similar things....and they had absolutely no skin in the game whatsoever. One guy said "I would put this up against anything on the market" et etc....and basically the consensus is that its a steal. Given I was asking g about the Recce 5 but most of them had the same sentiments about the recce line as a whole and they said so.

I'm pretty OCD about stuff sometimes but I've heard enough to make up my mind and give it a try. I would have already paid for it but they are on backorder and I don't want to get one from out of state and have months more wait time.

I'm just ribbing you a bit.

Hard to make a recommendation to someone about an NFA item if you've never even used one yet. [:D]

alamo5000
9 April 2015, 08:28
I'm just ribbing you a bit.

Hard to make a recommendation to someone about an NFA item if you've never even used one yet. [:D]

I know I know :) OK I'm fair game. Rib away....but asking if you've looked isn't the same as a making a recommendation ;)

I don't have jock itch either but I can recommend not getting it :) LOL!

Txfilmmaker
9 April 2015, 10:31
Note to self: Jock itch is a "no-go!" This is why I love this forum. I'm always learning. :p


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

toolboxluis00200
9 April 2015, 10:45
LOL AT the Jock itch joke

alamo5000
9 April 2015, 11:39
Note to self: Jock itch is a "no-go!" This is why I love this forum. I'm always learning. :p

I've read on the internet that it sucks.
;)

Txfilmmaker
9 April 2015, 14:11
😎


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

crenate
15 April 2015, 13:38
I became much more interested in the omega can when this came out.
http://www.store.silencerco.com/collections/center-fire-rifle/products/omega-flat-cap

UWone77
16 April 2015, 07:07
Nice spec'ed out guns. I see your reasoning. Does that mean you're just sticking with 3 AR's total though?

rob_s
16 April 2015, 07:32
Nice spec'ed out guns. I see your reasoning. Does that mean you're just sticking with 3 AR's total though?

Basically, yes. and if I were buying today from scratch (boating accident?) it might be only 2 (probably two KACs, one 11.5" one 16", and no can at all), or even just 1 (Noveske stainless 12.5" w/ Switchblock and 1.x-Y optic).

I do have a 9mm factory SBR with can, and a .22 S&W M&P15-22 that I need to decide what to do with. I'm investigating modifying those to match the others as well, but they are pretty far down on my list.

I also have a pretty good stack of stripped lower, and a couple of stripped uppers, and a 6.8 SPC upper, that I need to decide what to do with. Many of these things, and the 9mm and .22 above, aren't likely to be worth my time to sell.

Jerry R
16 April 2015, 11:12
Some good questions, and some very good common-sense answers Rob. Your insight is always spot-on.

UWone77
16 April 2015, 11:46
That's basically how I started getting a lot more carbines than I needed. I stocked up before the '08 elections and then bought a few more during the sell off after. Had too many at that point and started building them up as it wouldn't have been worth it to sell.

I should have taken the opportunity to cash in during the panic of '12 but never really did. Now I'm stuck with more than just a trifecta!

rob_s
16 April 2015, 12:12
I've gone boom and purge a couple of times. The original "tale of two carbines" was with the intent of having just those two. Screwed around and wound up committing to two 6933s, one of each from the first two batches, and had two guns. Then started getting people to send me free stuff, and it exploded. The goal here, for me, is to have tools for specific applications. If someone calls me up and says "hey, want to go shoot three gun?" I want to know that I have all the gear to go do that, and good quality gear as well. If someone calls up and says "hey, want to go hog hunting?" I want to be able to say "yes I do!" if they say "guide doesn't allow military style rifles", then I'll have a cheap .308 bolt gun to take. Etc.

UWone77
16 April 2015, 20:02
I've been thinking about this thread quite a bit today, because out of all the guns I own, I really keep shooting basically the same 3 over and over. What I really need to do, is like you sit down, think about what each purpose they serve, and start thinking of what parts if any I need to strip off of other builds to make them "complete" as I need them to be.

Ride4frnt
16 April 2015, 20:27
In for Rich's clearance sale when he liquidates!

UWone77
16 April 2015, 20:50
In for Rich's clearance sale when he liquidates!

I've already given away at least half a dozen uppers this year. You must have missed that fire giveaway. [BD]

Ride4frnt
16 April 2015, 21:00
I've already given away at least half a dozen uppers this year. You must have missed that fire giveaway. [BD]

If I had anymore uppers I wouldn't have lowers to put them on, and I'm not one to switch em out often. Accessories however, can never have too many.

alamo5000
16 April 2015, 21:00
The goal here, for me, is to have tools for specific applications. If someone calls me up and says "hey, want to go shoot three gun?" I want to know that I have all the gear to go do that, and good quality gear as well. If someone calls up and says "hey, want to go hog hunting?" I want to be able to say "yes I do!"

This whole concept of having purpose driven rifles has been my theory on it from very early on. In ways though it scared me off for a while because it's just too complex and there are so many manufacturers out there. It really scared me off of building a rifle for a while until I could figure some of the stuff out.

Now though I think about that very thing all the time. Not just the rifle but how it's set up, with what optic or whatever.

It's become sort an obsession of mine to tell the truth. It's easy to build a gun. It's not so easy to get all the parts working together with a specific intent in mind.

I have a few ideas in the back of my mind but I haven't came to any conclusions yet on the other things. That said, when I built my rifle I hand picked each part. Some things I had to make a leap of faith on. But by and large I got the rifle that I wanted and I am so glad that I put that extra thought into it.

rob_s
17 April 2015, 02:55
Establishing a use case is key, in my mind. We learned this in architecture school. When designing a building, you first establish what the building will be used for, then you establish a "theme" (so to speak) for the aesthetic, and if you've done those two steps correctly almost every design decision comes easily because you simply ask yourself if it's the best embodiment of the use and the theme.

When it comes to gun, I'm not really into the idea of "aesthetic". In fact, I find it a little odd (especially when put into sexual terms, super creepy). For me, when something "looks good" in the gun world it's because I can see the thought that went into the assemblage of parts relative to a use that I'm familiar with. I don't find a gun pleasing to the eye any more than I do a hammer. And I'm certainly not going to set about investing time and money into my guns to make them look better, or cooler, or impress the internet, or whatever. I did all that when I was in my early 20s, thank you very much. And what I learned from that experience was that it's a waste of money and it sucks as soon as you step onto the range, away from the bench, and start actually shooting the gun in a "dynamic" environment.

The thing is, though, that you have to have gone through some amount of fiddle-fart to make this all come together. I can look at pictures of a pistol grip online and say "that looks too much like the Ergo grip I tried 15 years ago, not doing that!" But someone who is just starting out doesn't benefit from that experience. And, that experience is not infallible. I just bought two Magpul MOE SL grips and a K2. I got them, installed them, and hate them all already. I should have *known* that I don't like that newfangled more vertical grip angle, and that I prefer a fatter grip to a thinner one. As soon as I had it in my hand I knew it was wrong, but I still installed them and shouldered the guns and immediately thought "nope". Looking back at the use-cases, the SL may still not be wrong in the case of the Gray gun as it's meant to be used with new shooters as well in which case many of which may be women or kids, so the slimmer profile may be warranted.

And look, this is all 99% fun. The ultimate fun is getting out and shooting the guns, but I'd be lying if I said that there have been times when I didn't enjoy the hell out of the fiddle-fart. This period in my life is not one of them (and so the grip mistake above is a bit soul-crushing...) and my goal here is to get these guns set up correctly as quickly as possible and move on. or, I keep telling myself that, but the truth is that all of these guns were probably just fine when I started down this road. So there's probably some closet fiddle-fart that will always reside in me.

But at the end of the day, stepping up to the line at a match, or getting through an entire course without one complaint about my gun, or seeing that hog drop, or that new shooter's grin, brings a pretty big sense of pride knowing that you got the right assemblage of parts. For the guys that don't shoot, and just stuff their safe and post pictures on the internet, I guess that same point of pride is when someone sees the staged picture of your gun with the plate carrier and scattered brass or whatever, but I've been there, done that, too and it's not the same. Not by a long shot. I LOVE building and customizing things, but the real point of pride for me is when I go out and USE the thing and know that I got it all exactly right.

GOST
17 April 2015, 04:21
Rob how often do you feel that you got it exactly right? The more vertical grips don't work for me either, I use either MOE or MOE+.

rob_s
17 April 2015, 06:21
Truthfully, the original tan gun is still pretty perfect to me. I'd like a slightly longer handguard on that gun as it sits today, but otherwise it's a perfect "do all" gun for me, and has been almost since writing the first article.

However, things change based on actual use as well as potential use or general interests. When I assembled that gun originally, I was fully into all the SHTFantasy nonsense propogated on many forums. I thought I "needed" an AR to repel post-hurrican invaders, etc. now I'll just leave and come home when things quiet down. I also have a renewed interest in competition shooting, and so I'd like to be able to get a little better precision and accuracy from the gun, as well as a little less muzzle climb. For my original stated purpose though? It was, and has been, spot on.

the other original gun, the green one, is a bit harder to evaluate. It's stated purpose at the time was strictly "home defense", and since that really means "sit in the safe and never get shot" it performed perfectly! The changes to that gun are mostly being driven by a change in can and by keeping it to a similar interface as the tan gun. I really like having the same handguard on both guns, same or similar VFG and pistol grip, etc. But i shot the green gun in it's original configuration a few times (eventually the ACOG went away and turned into an Aimpoint) running "HD" type drills and it performed well.

The last gun in the trifecta is somewhat "new". It used to be a pretty stock 6933 with MOE furniture and an Aimpoint, and it acted like a loaner gun or new shooter gun because it was a balance of simple, lightweight, and inexpensive (obviously being an SBR it was only loaned if I was present). But since it's a factory SBR I wanted to keep it as a new shooter gun but better optimize it and update it with some lessons I've learned on other project guns (such as keeping the ability to remove the optic for overly weight-conscious shooters).

Txfilmmaker
17 April 2015, 21:23
This is a very interesting thread. I have won most of my parts. I keep thinking it should be a "do all" rifle. (Tan Gun) Regarding the parts I currently own: The upper and lower are billet. The hand guard is a 12.37" Samson EVO key mod and the trigger I won is a two stage CMC. (1lb-3lb) I have both a Lantac Dragon & a Fossa 556 flash hider. A friend was going to give me a barrel, but then he felt like it wasn't the right one for my rifle. I came close to buying a Mountain Series barrel, but had to postpone that purchase. So now I am reading your posts and wondering if my "Frankenstein Rifle" can be a "Do All" with the parts I own or are there some mismatches here. My CMC trigger might be more of a target trigger. Is that correct? Don't get me wrong. I am very happy I have these parts. I'm just thinking this through. It doesn't have to be perfect. I'm sure that I will enjoy the rifle once it is complete. Anyway, I'm learning a lot from this thread. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge.


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GOST
18 April 2015, 18:11
Don't think that a perfect do it all rifle is achievable since a do it all rifle is good at many things, but not perfect at any. Rob_S is putting together 3 rifles trying to achieve that they will be perfect at their defined purpose. I personally don't feel that a perfect do it all rifle is achievable, it's like trying to catch a chupacabra.

Txfilmmaker
18 April 2015, 19:05
Don't think that a perfect do it all rifle is achievable since a do it all rifle is good at many things, but not perfect at any. Rob_S is putting together 3 rifles trying to achieve that they will be perfect at their defined purpose. I personally don't feel that a perfect do it all rifle is achievable, it's like trying to catch a chupacabra.

Chupacabras :)
I understand. Thanks for your input, Ghost.


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rob_s
20 April 2015, 06:13
I'm still trying to work out my optics on the RDS guns, specifically relative to mounting height. I prefer an absolute cowitness with the folding, locking, irons I also prefer. But I'm wanting the ability to add a magnifier that I can detatch, flip to side, and use on either gun. It appears that Larue is the only game in town for such a mount (I don't like the ADM solution), but their "low" magnifier mount has alignment issues that seem to vary across the internets.

Slippers
20 April 2015, 06:37
Do you need QD capability on the magnifier? If not, you may want to check out the vortex vmx-3t. Offers co-witness and a decent price.

rob_s
20 April 2015, 08:32
Yes, the magnifier needs to be able to be completely removed from the gun(s) wihtout tools, as well as tip-to-side. I've used the Larue in the past and it's very intuitive and simple to use, but I want to be able to completely remove the thing when I don't need it.