PDA

View Full Version : Anyone have a WAR Upper?



Former11B
23 April 2015, 19:16
I've got one and if anyone might be interested in this unique item that makes suppressed shooting much more pleasurable, I can write a review. I've got another build in the works and it'll definitely be getting one.

Unsuppressed Mode
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/NewBuild3.jpg

Suppressed Mode
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/NewBuild4.jpg

UWone77
23 April 2015, 19:25
I bought one awhile ago in anticipation of playing with a suppressed setup, but haven't decided what to do with it yet.

Dstrbdmedic167
23 April 2015, 19:30
I've got one and if anyone might be interested in this unique item that makes suppressed shooting much more pleasurable, I can write a review. I've got another build in the works and it'll definitely be getting one.
Yes! A review if you please!


I bought one awhile ago in anticipation of playing with a suppressed setup, but haven't decided what to do with it yet.

You don't need it. Just toss it my way. Hehe

rob_s
23 April 2015, 19:31
I would like to hear more.

tact
23 April 2015, 20:20
Building one now....

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/23/19f1bbdc665df0994c44f18f06dc3bb0.jpg

Slippers
23 April 2015, 20:54
I'm definitely interested in this, too. Can you lock the lever in place so it doesn't get accidentally bumped?

Former11B
23 April 2015, 22:51
I'm definitely interested in this, too. Can you lock the lever in place so it doesn't get accidentally bumped?

The switch/lever is held firmly in place with the spring you can see in the above pictures, as well as on the right side (of the receiver,) there is a small roll pin that sits in a channel that corresponds to the desired setting. It would take some very focused, precise force on the switch to get it to rotate the 90*.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/WarUpper7.jpg

There's also sort of a 3rd setting. It's in between the two actual ones and it shuts the gas flow off entirely. Never used it, just told about it by Innovative Arms' owner.

Looks like I have my homework for this weekend: to write this up. I've already done a year and a half's worth of testing.

If anyone wants specific questions or something addressed, let me know. I'll have a chance to shoot this weekend if something is asked I don't know or recall regarding performance. If so, I'll try to get a video and I have a ton of pics. I'll just update this original first post with the review and can keep the thread going for Q&A

DutyUse
23 April 2015, 22:55
Building one now....

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/23/19f1bbdc665df0994c44f18f06dc3bb0.jpg

Nicely done! Cerakote? Who's work is it

Slippers
23 April 2015, 23:16
Ok, makes more sense. You have to push the pin in and turn it.

Deadwing
24 April 2015, 01:09
Very cool concept. I'd love to see a review on this.

GOST
24 April 2015, 01:47
Nicely done! Cerakote? Who's work is it

Probably the www.madcustomcoating.com advertised on the pic.[:D]

rob_s
24 April 2015, 03:28
Something I'm particularly interested in is discussion of this product vs. the Noveske Switchblock. Very different solutions to the same "problem".

Former11B
24 April 2015, 05:59
Something I'm particularly interested in is discussion of this product vs. the Noveske Switchblock. Very different solutions to the same "problem".

With a SwitchBlock (not the barrel combo), you save about $80 ($185 Retail). It works in conjunction with any barrel (if it's .750" @ front sight) and you can use it with your existing upper. This is good if you have a matching upper/lower combo or an upper you don't want to replace. Drawback is it can't be used, according to Noveske, under a rail or with OE hand guards. The adjustment knob also gets hot when shooting so you need to wear gloves and it can be hard to grab the knob when wearing them. They both have three settings: unsuppressed, suppressed, and off.

The WAR is a little more pricey ($260) but I got mine on sale for $225. It can be used with any barrel (carbine and midlength gas are standard options from most retailers and rifle length gas tubes are available from Innovative Arms...all are proprietary) and any rail. My Rainier/Samson rail has anti rotation tabs and they do not interfere with the switch. The switch doesn't get hot and its large enough to turn with shooting gloves on and you can verify the setting from a shooting position....if you're ever in a situation that would require it. My ACOG (3.5x35) mount tightening knobs almost obstruct the switch (from a fingers hit both at same time standpoint, not that the switch hits the knobs) but it's worked fine with many different scope mounts/rings/ARMS. Can be used with 5.56 and 300BLK

This may seem biased, not trying to be, I just know more about the WAR

If anyone wants to know something specific let me know and I'll either answer or include in review.

SINNER
24 April 2015, 06:28
I assume these come with a proprietary gas tube? I like the concept of these. Any pics of inside the upper? Short stub gas tube inside to engage the gas key?

Cerakote looks killer btw.

Former11B
24 April 2015, 07:49
I assume these come with a proprietary gas tube? I like the concept of these. Any pics of inside the upper? Short stub gas tube inside to engage the gas key?

Cerakote looks killer btw.

The WAR does come with a proprietary tube and I did indicate that in my last post (just to clarify). Lots of words...probably lost in the sauce

I'll take a picture of inside the WAR vs a regular upper

SINNER
24 April 2015, 08:09
My wording was poor. Is the gas tube is included with the cost stated was what I was asking. I really would like to see the internals of this. Thanks.

Former11B
24 April 2015, 08:11
My wording was poor. Is the gas tube is included with the cost stated was what I was asking. I really would like to see the internals of this. Thanks.

Oh sorry. Yes, comes with the gas tube in the price.

tact
24 April 2015, 08:36
Probably the www.madcustomcoating.com advertised on the pic.[:D]

Yes indeed. It is their pic.

tact
24 April 2015, 08:48
11B....what barrel config are you running or have ran? I'm going to use a 10.5" WOA barrel. I'm awaiting my GB to be pinned by ADCO.

Slippers
24 April 2015, 09:19
I dug around a bit more online. Never knew these existed, even though they've been available for a couple years. I do see sporadic reports that it doesn't work well with 7.62 cans, since there's less back pressure. Curious if there's any truth to this.

tact
24 April 2015, 09:59
I dug around a bit more online. Never knew these existed, even though they've been available for a couple years. I do see sporadic reports that it doesn't work well with 7.62 cans, since there's less back pressure. Curious if there's any truth to this.

Good to know.....I'll be running a Saker762 with mine so I'll see how it goes.

Slippers
24 April 2015, 11:04
Good to know.....I'll be running a Saker762 with mine so I'll see how it goes.

I have a Saker762, too. If it doesn't work, I guess you could try the smaller 5.56 end cap.

rob_s
24 April 2015, 13:21
I'm also seeing reports online of "leaking" and that the barrel gas port needs to be enlarged.

Former11B
24 April 2015, 15:27
I do recall being told the WAR likes a gas port range somewhere between .085" -.093". I use a 16" Rainier Select 1:8 barrel and will be running one with a Rainier 18" Match hopefully within a few months. In regards to leaking, I actually just removed my rail for the first time last night in probably 1500 all suppressed rounds and there was minimal gas "dusting" around the barrel/barrel nut and where the gas tube enters the upper. A QTip dusted it all off. A lot probably has to do with the type of ammo; I am using cleaner burning Handloads versus something like Wolf steel cases ammo. A little gas dust shows on the outside of the receiver near the switch and just forward of the ejection port after shooting but nothing serious. I'll save the review for interior/bolt fouling build up and pics

For a 10-12" barrel, you may still need an H buffer...I think Phillip told me that when I was talking about my 10.5" gun.

I think Daniel Defense barrels are fine, as they use a larger gas port. Check with specific manufacturers regarding Gas port size versus gas system length. I have heard of people with smaller gas ports on the .0750" side using a 3/32" drill bit either in a handrail or a drillpress and opening up their own gas port but do that at your own risk. You could always send it into a Smith like ADCO for a quick rip.

I had not heard about the WAR and function with some 7.62 cans...I was even wondering about a reflex style can (AAC SPR/M4, OPS, AE, Griffin OTB) not generating enough back pressure due to the design. If a smaller end cap is an option, I would use that, otherwise a call to Innovative may provide some insight I can't (or I can compile some questions I can't answer and forward them to IA/Phillip.

Slippers
24 April 2015, 20:00
I must admit that having to purposefully use a barrel with a larger than ideal-spec gas port in order for this to work doesn't really appeal to me.

GOST
24 April 2015, 20:46
I must admit that having to purposefully use a barrel with a larger than ideal-spec gas port in order for this to work doesn't really appeal to me.

Same as the Govnah GB. Interesting GB but it's heavy and uses a larger gas port.

UWone77
24 April 2015, 21:02
I'm interested to see your full write up on this WAR upper 11B. Like I mentioned before, I haven't decided what to do with mine as I've been pretty satisfied with my switchblock uppers. However, I'm always interested to entertain builds that reduce gas in my face.

Former11B
25 April 2015, 06:00
I must admit that having to purposefully use a barrel with a larger than ideal-spec gas port in order for this to work doesn't really appeal to me.

I wouldn't really say "larger than ideal" because many big name barrels come with gas ports already in the WAR's acceptable range, like Rainier, DD, FN, etc

Former11B
25 April 2015, 06:44
I'm interested to see your full write up on this WAR upper 11B. Like I mentioned before, I haven't decided what to do with mine as I've been pretty satisfied with my switchblock uppers. However, I'm always interested to entertain builds that reduce gas in my face.

I am definitely working on it, but I may need to for two-part write up. I was going to shoot today, having cleaned the WAR rifle and another (both suppressed) but it's raining like a beast all weekend. I was going to shoot 100 or 200 rounds through each and show build up/fouling and try to take temperature readings to see if one ran cooler than the other. But given the rainy weekend that part is a wash for now :(

Slippers
25 April 2015, 07:27
I wouldn't really say "larger than ideal" because many big name barrels come with gas ports already in the WAR's acceptable range, like Rainier, DD, FN, etc

DD is definitely larger than ideal. They're known for being quite overgassed. It just seems weird to buy an out-of-spec barrel to go with an expensive upper to have it function right. I like the concept, but if the upper requires a larger gas port than normal, then it's losing gas at some point (probably the tube->upper junction).

Anyway, I won't argue the point any more. Looking forward to your results. :)

UWone77
25 April 2015, 08:17
DD is definitely larger than ideal. They're known for being quite overgassed. It just seems weird to buy an out-of-spec barrel to go with an expensive upper to have it function right. I like the concept, but if the upper requires a larger gas port than normal, then it's losing gas at some point (probably the tube->upper junction).

Anyway, I won't argue the point any more. Looking forward to your results. :)

Yeah, DD barrels are notoriously overgassed. No question.

Former11B
25 April 2015, 11:26
DD is definitely larger than ideal. They're known for being quite overgassed. It just seems weird to buy an out-of-spec barrel to go with an expensive upper to have it function right. I like the concept, but if the upper requires a larger gas port than normal, then it's losing gas at some point (probably the tube->upper junction).

Anyway, I won't argue the point any more. Looking forward to your results. :)

It's not arguing, it's a conversation. While DD may be consistently over gassed, they are far from the only manufacturer using a large gas port and in many cases it's not a detriment. So to say all barrels that work with the WAR upper are automatically out of spec I think is a little unfair.

This is from a Colt Manual:
Barrel Length Barrel Diameter Gas Port Min-Max
11.5 .625". .081-.089
11.5 .750". .086-.093
14.5/16 .625". .063-.078
14.5/16 .750". .070-.086
20 .625". .081-.089
20 .750". .086-.093

UWone77
25 April 2015, 11:31
It's not arguing, it's a conversation. While DD may be consistently over gassed, they are far from the only manufacturer using a large gas port and in many cases it's not a detriment. So to say all barrels that work with the WAR upper are automatically out of spec I think is a little unfair.

This is from a Colt Manual:
Barrel Length Barrel Diameter Gas Port Min-Max
11.5 .625". .081-.089
11.5 .750". .086-.093
14.5/16 .625". .063-.078
14.5/16 .750". .070-.086
20 .625". .081-.089
20 .750". .086-.093

I 100% agree DD is not the only barrel manufacturer with oversized ports. I will however be waiting to read your full review before I decide how to proceed with my own WAR Upper.

tact
25 April 2015, 13:30
I will be able to furnish some additional data after 11Bs write up as I am messing with it strictly for SBR use (10.5" WOA) and I have a titanium BCG, an ultra compact stock, a 5.56 can, a 762 can with and without a 5.56 endcap that I'll be testing with that upper.

Former11B
25 April 2015, 17:08
I 100% agree DD is not the only barrel manufacturer with oversized ports. I will however be waiting to read your full review before I decide how to proceed with my own WAR Upper.

Seriously if you decide to sell it further down the line and no one locally wants it, I'll see if I can pry some cash out from under the wife's grasp and buy it [:D]

UWone77
25 April 2015, 17:53
Seriously if you decide to sell it further down the line and no one locally wants it, I'll see if I can pry some cash out from under the wife's grasp and buy it [:D]

You know, I may take you up on that offer. The last thing I really need to do is build another upper. BUT... still interested to see how much less gas in your face that the WAR would possibly mitigate vs the Switchblock.

UWone77
25 April 2015, 22:31
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_3332_zps3izkoqey.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_3332_zps3izkoqey.jpg.html)
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_3333_zpslbo5sa9d.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_3333_zpslbo5sa9d.jpg.html)

UWone77
26 April 2015, 13:42
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_3334_zpstrj6vlr4.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_3334_zpstrj6vlr4.jpg.html)
http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/IMG_3335_zpslzwlhdxf.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/IMG_3335_zpslzwlhdxf.jpg.html)

MoxyDave
26 April 2015, 13:52
I really don't think it would be any better than a switchblock. Most of the spent gasses come back through the barrel, not the gas system.

I've recently noticed there is a lot of water that comes out with the gas on my Stickman build. If I don't clean the gun right away I get a ton of oxidation all around the rear of the receivers and extension. Strange that I hadn't noticed that before, I wonder if it's due to the additional volume of the SPR/M4?

Former11B
30 April 2015, 08:39
I really don't think it would be any better than a switchblock. Most of the spent gasses come back through the barrel, not the gas system.

I've recently noticed there is a lot of water that comes out with the gas on my Stickman build. If I don't clean the gun right away I get a ton of oxidation all around the rear of the receivers and extension. Strange that I hadn't noticed that before, I wonder if it's due to the additional volume of the SPR/M4?

It's not due to the additional volume of the reflex design (which I like).

Cans, especially stainless/center fire rifle cans, get super hot when shooting them. They cool down and condensation forms. I've seen barrels rusted and pitted badly because the owner never took the can off after shooting it. I take my cans off once cool, clean and reinstall, and have never had any rust.

I read something once (posted below) that as much as a teaspoon of water can form when it's cooling and think about storing the rifle can-up and that water running down the barrel all the way down the rifle and sitting. Not pretty if you don't clean it or touch it again for months

From silencer research.com LLC

Moisture Accumulation and Weapon Storage

Water is a major byproduct of gunpowder combustion. A good suppressor will capture and retain a considerable amount of the liquid. Twenty shots from a .308 will cause about a teaspoonful of water to be captured. Whenever possible, the weapon should be carried and stored with the muzzle pointing straight down. The bolt or action should remain open to allow accumulated water to evaporate and vent. If the suppressor is removed as soon as the shooting stops, heat in the suppressor will rapidly dry most of the internal components.

Unfortunately, most rifles are traditionally stored muzzle-up. This causes water and trapped particulates to slowly release, where they will fall and lodge in the chamber area and bolt face. Burned gunpowder is quite dirty, and the inside of a suppressor is usually filthy. Cleaning is best accomplished by flushing the can in solvent, draining, and blowing the unit out with compressed air. One should get in the habit of storing a suppressed rifle by hanging it, muzzle-down. Even stainless steel components will rust if trapped water is not allowed to vent. This may result in a suppressor rusted tightly to its barrel. A bore with rust near its muzzle may lose its accuracy. Corrosion can occur quickly in a warm, moist environment. This is not an aspect to be ignored.


And I'm still working on the review. Trying to do a little bit piece by piece. Don't have as much time on my hands as I did a couple months ago since I started working and now that I have a one-year-old at home, free time is not so free

MoxyDave
30 April 2015, 12:27
Great info, thanks. That totally makes sense, you often see water dripping out of a car's tailpipe for the same reason. I store my guns muzzle down already, I must have read this long ago and forgotten [:)]

GOST
5 June 2015, 04:24
Same as the Govnah GB. Interesting GB but it's heavy and uses a larger gas port.

MicroMOA has informed me that they do not recommend enlarging a gas port for use with a Govnah gas block.

amphibian
5 June 2015, 08:34
MicroMOA has informed me that they do not recommend enlarging a gas port for use with a Govnah gas block.

GOST, thanks for the clarification.
This is my first post here as I normally don't frequent this site but wanted to shed some light on the confusion.
GOST obtained a barrel from one of our dealers that doesn't care for having an 'adverse' mode.....likewise, the ports used on his barrels won't cycle Tula. I personally don't care about Tula either but I use it to as a reference point and will tune a port to run Tula which in turn I consider to be an adverse port when running quality ammo with an extremely fouled gun.
EX: Crane has documented the port size on the MK18 10.3" barrel to be .070"
DD sells their commercial MK18 barrel with a .082" port size so it will cycle ammo like Tula. While they supply military customers with the same barrel ported to .070 like spec'ed out by Crane.
Likewise, Colt sells their 10.3" barrels at .070.
The Noveske 10.5's I've looked at were also ported to .082.
We port our 10.5's at .082 as well but with the Govnah we have the 3 position configured for Optimal // Unsuppressed // Suppressed/Adverse which for a 'milspec' configuration is: .070/.049/.082.
It takes more motor control skills to put the plate in the middle vs shoving it left or right and if you have time to put a suppressor on, then you have time put the regulator in the middle.
If you need more gas, you don't have think what direction do I go as either is relatively more gas than being in the middle.
When I say 'milspec' above, I'm referring to running milspec ammo, no heavier than an H2 buffer and standard power spring.
We do an Extra gas version of the above which is .073/.052/.082 which means running 223 commercial ammo and maybe heavier buffer.

We have a MK18 version of our Govnah with these ports already drilled out listed here:http://micromoa.com/govnah-gas-blocks/
The MK18 version is dependent on the port size in the barrel being .082 or close to it to take advantage of that big port.

Now for those that either:
1. Don't care about having an adverse mode
2. Have a milspec barrel (in the case of the MK18) a .070 port
We have a two position models with the spec's listed here: http://micromoa.com/govnah-specs/
If you look at that link you'll see:
5.56/.223 10.3” – 12.5 ” Barrel – Carbine Length Gas System:

“Milspec” plate – .049” suppressed position / .070” unsuppressed position
Extra gas plate – .052” suppressed position / .073” unsuppressed position
The problem is in order for adverse to be effective, we need to know what the port size is in the barrel and they vary a lot between manufacturers. Then a lot of end users don't have numbered bits to figure out what the port size is so it is a pain to deal with.
So for people that don't want to tinker we tell them to get the Extra Gas version for a 10.3 - 12.5" carbine barrel.
If they buy a DD commerical barrel or Noveske barrel then I know it is .082 and to get the 3 position if their rail can accommodate it.
Of course if they buy our barrel we know the port size and everything is pre-tuned...
On that note, if a customer doesn't want the adverse mode, we will port it to be milspec and the Govnah will work fine at the .070 port in the case of the MK18 but mostly won't run Tula.
Hope that clears things up.
Thanks

GOST
5 June 2015, 10:00
Welcome aboard Amphibian aka Robert, glad to have MicroMOA participating here.

Former11B
9 June 2015, 12:31
I'll be doing as much of a test as I can this weekend, provided it doesn't rain.

I've got two suppressed guns, both with WAR uppers I plan on running one in the "suppressed" mode, and the other in "unsuppressed". I want to run a minimum of 100 rounds through each and I'll be noting ejection pattern (not that it necessarily indicates anything, but I want to see if it changes), blow back in shooter's face, noticeable recoil on the different systems (16" Mid and 18" rifle), any noticeable difference in tone at shooter's ear, and of course, fouling on the innards (both rifles have NiB BCGs so it should be easy to tell) as they will both be freshly cleaned and Frog Lubed.

If anyone wants me to note anything else or look for something in particular, please let me know.

Former11B
15 June 2015, 17:44
Well, a disappointing turn of events.

I'd gotten to the range right at 7:50am on Sunday in order to get ahead of the 100 degree day that was inbound. I'd put a CMC flat trigger in my Recce style rifle and getting the feel of it. I was able to shoot it precisely as well as run through some rounds really quick. Short reset, short and smooth travel....excellent bang switch.

So I get my new 18" rifle set up and start testing out some handloads trying to find the sweet spot. I'd gotten through about six different loads and I got a phone call from my wife saying she was sick/throwing up. I had to cut my tests short so I could go watch my 1yr old :(

Hopefully I can get some more loads prepped and repeat test weekend after next