Charging people to shoot on our range...

[Ji Rimer]

I just want to get others' opinion on something. I have an outdoor range, it's completely safe and I live way out in the middle of nowhere almost. I was wondering if you guys would ever consider (or have in the past) rent out your outdoor range if you had one. I'd of course have people sign waivers and all of that good stuff. I actually have a pretty extensive plan on how I would put it all in motion but still don't know if I should.

Again just trying to get some opinions on if you guys would or wouldn't and why. Thanks

[Uffdaphil]

Better have some huge liability insurance. A signed waiver won't save your butt in many situations.

[voodoo_man]

+1 for liability insurance.

Sign a waver, have it on file.

$10 for the day (or week or month, whatever) - pays for the insurance.

[BC98]

Better have some huge liability insurance. A signed waiver won't save your butt in many situations.

+1

The liability issues alone would scare the crap out of me.

In addition, to me a range that is on my personal property is my solace. It's a place where I can go to get away from my stresses and engage in one of my favorite hobbies. Having other people pay to use it pretty much turns it into a workplace for me and I would have to find someplace else to shoot or a different stress relief.

[GOST]

I only allow friends to come out and shoot at my place. Besides the liability, it's hard to maintain a large area that gets a lot of traffic. And once people become familiar with the area you may run into poaching problems. Nothing like being awaken by gun fire.

[RogerRonas]

I'd legally separate the range from your property and form a corporation to run the range. Then if liability insurance does not cover everything and you (corporation) gets sued, you won't lose your personel property.
remember it only takes one a$$ to ruin everything.

Roger

[WHSmithIV]

Roger's right. Form a LLC company, then legally transfer the portion of property that is the range to the LLC. Money that people pay to use the range goes into the LLC and then you have that money paid to you as salary from the LLC minus what has to be paid for the insurance. This way your home stays safe.

[skijunkie55]

Kinda piggy-backing on to the original question, if I was to rent out my "private range" for a firearms training company to use, would I still need my own LLC as the property owner when they have an LLC for the training company?

[RogerRonas]

I would say this:
May be not, BUT. What happens if the a$$ decides to sue the Training Company and also the land owner! It would be better to do the LLC to protect you from ANY incident. Back in the day, There were people trying to sue Home Builders and they listed all sub contractors as defendants. They never won a case but the small time subs lost their a$$ in Attorney fees defending a bogus claim and some even went bankrupt.
PROTECT YOU AND YOURS!!!!

Roger



Kinda piggy-backing on to the original question, if I was to rent out my "private range" for a firearms training company to use, would I still need my own LLC as the property owner when they have an LLC for the training company?

[Eric]

Just remember, no good deed goes unpunished. Between costs to form an LLC through an attorney, business licenses, tax issues, insurance and such, I would pass.

[Hmac]

That is a terrible idea. Establishing a shooting range as a business now imposes a variety of zoning, construstion, and safety reglulations from your county. You'd best check that out thoroughly.

Now, you might be able to start a gun club of some kind and people can pay to "defray expenses" but again, better look at what your state, county, township, or city would impose on you for a now-necessarily registered shooting range. And be prepared for a breathtaking jump in your liability insurance, especially if your range doesn't meet or exceed the standards recommended by the NRA.

[GaSwamper]

Sounds like a lot of headache and expense to me. I have a personal range myself but use it sparingly due to it also being on hunting property and I do keep it personal. I take family and friends out but very few and I don't do any hard core shooting there, mainly sight in, test, and work up new loads. When I want to seriously shoot some rounds I go to a public range so I can annoy others with my muzzle breaks. [BD]

[Thompson]

When I want to seriously shoot some rounds I go to a public range so I can annoy others with my muzzle breaks. [BD]
... there's always that one guy.

You're probably that guy who shoots an SBR without ANY muzzle device, aren't you? [BD]

[GaSwamper]

... there's always that one guy.

You're probably that guy who shoots an SBR without ANY muzzle device, aren't you? [BD]

Well no, I'm the guy that mag dumps .277 caliber SBRs with a side porting brake next to you. Then when you mean mug me I go get the 30.06 with the BOSS on it. J/K I'm very polite, and sensitive to others feelings and all that stuff.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Well no, I'm the guy that mag dumps .277 caliber SBRs with a side porting brake next to you. Then when you mean mug me I go get the 30.06 with the BOSS on it. J/K I'm very polite, and sensitive to others feelings and all that stuff.

.... Haha I know better. You were the guy with the 6.8 that made everyone jump every time you pulled the trigger. That damn brake lol

[GOST]

Well no, I'm the guy that mag dumps .277 caliber SBRs with a side porting brake next to you. Then when you mean mug me I go get the 30.06 with the BOSS on it. J/K I'm very polite, and sensitive to others feelings and all that stuff.


.... Haha I know better. You were the guy with the 6.8 that made everyone jump every time you pulled the trigger. That damn brake lol
The world needs more guys like you!

[DutyUse]

I only allow friends to come out and shoot at my place. Besides the liability, it's hard to maintain a large area that gets a lot of traffic. And once people become familiar with the area you may run into poaching problems. Nothing like being awaken by gun fire.

This^

We have a handful of trusted friends and family who have permission to shoot, hunt etc on our land. But even that can be a hassle sometimes. If you and some buddies want to chip in and build a cool hangout that's one thing, but living on a public range seems like a nightmare to me.

[Ji Rimer]

Yeah I would definitely have liability insurance (I wouldn't just count on a waiver to cover by tail). And I don't think I would have to worry about poachers and people coming trying to shoot at it in the middle of the night. Although it's outdoors it's pretty much impossible to get to unless you come through the front gate which I keep locked. It took me years to get it how it is now and being in such awesome protected condition is one of the things that made me think about possibly doing this in the first place. I've even already looked at credit card machines (http://tsysmerchantsolutions.com/merchant-solutions/credit-card-machine/) so I can have multiple options for payment.

Yes it might be a lot of work but I think it's worth it for the possible amount of money I can make.

[UWone77]

Is there a need for the kind of range you think you can offer? I think I would take a look at the possible economic rewards before I looked into an LLC, insurance, ect.

[Former11B]

Well no, I'm the guy that mag dumps .277 caliber SBRs with a side porting brake next to you. Then when you mean mug me I go get the 30.06 with the BOSS on it. J/K I'm very polite, and sensitive to others feelings and all that stuff.

I had a guy at the range who wouldn't get off his cell phone (talking really loud while I'm shooting for groups with my suppressed rifles)....he and I were the only two there, I was there first, and he got on a bench right beside me and starts .22 plinking. After about ten minutes I got out my unsuppressed 10" AR and started shooting failure drills. He got off the phone before I reloaded :)

[UWone77]

Here's a related question for you guys with land to shoot on.... what's the minimum acreage required to have a decent range? I realize it also depends on what kind of shooting you do and the shape of your property.

[alamo5000]

Here's a related question for you guys with land to shoot on.... what's the minimum acreage required to have a decent range? I realize it also depends on what kind of shooting you do and the shape of your property.

My immediate yard is 4 acres and I can have 100 yards with ease and 200 if I push it. Truth be told I could do the same thing on 2 acres of land given the same configuration.

The real thing to worry about is not what is on YOUR property but it's proximity to other people/houses/livestock etc. The terrain matters a whole lot too. I have a hill behind my house so I am assured that rounds wind up in the dirt. If a round leaves your property it is still your responsibility.

Also if you only had 2 acres with the right shape to it and all that, you could get 200 yards out of it, but you would also have to worry about noise if there are other houses in the area. Unsuppressed you need about a 300 yard buffer to get less noise complaints.

I would say 2 acres is minimum for a 100 to 200 yard range.

[UWone77]

Yeah, your backstop and beyond of course is a given. I'm thinking of probably a 10-20 acre piece of property to be ideal.

[SINNER]

Believe it or not the sound is the biggest issue. Need to check the noise ordinance of the jurisdiction where the property lies.

[GaSwamper]

Well I scouted my whole lease for the right terrain and found it on a back 40 acre corner, the lease is 460 acres. I found a valley where a wet weather creek crosses the center, I set up on one hillside and shoot towards the other hillside, Distance from peak to peak over the valley is about 400yds but I only use 300 of it so Im never actually shooting across the other peak. At 100 and 200 I have burms I've built up with the front end loader 5ft high and 10-12ft long it is of course heavily wooded beyond and around. There isn't a house or structure at least for 1 mile maybe more.

[alamo5000]

Yeah, your backstop and beyond of course is a given. I'm thinking of probably a 10-20 acre piece of property to be ideal.

I wouldn't even dream of doing some kind of shoot house on 4 acres unless it was nestled in some sort of valley or something. Other than that just a simple shooting lane would be fine but nothing more provided there is a backdrop etc etc. You can shoot skeet all day but that's not what we are talking about. But you are right. 20 or 30 acres (or more) would be ideal depending on the terrain, location, etc etc.

[UWone77]

I wouldn't even dream of doing some kind of shoot house on 4 acres unless it was nestled in some sort of valley or something. Other than that just a simple shooting lane would be fine but nothing more provided there is a backdrop etc etc. You can shoot skeet all day but that's not what we are talking about. But you are right. 20 or 30 acres (or more) would be ideal depending on the terrain, location, etc etc.

We're gonna be likely buying some property in the next 3-4 years for our "final" home. More property the better, but I don't want to be out too far.

[alamo5000]

We're gonna be likely buying some property in the next 3-4 years for our "final" home. More property the better, but I don't want to be out too far.

I couldn't even imagine being in a position like that. But I know around where I live property values have almost tripled within 10 years. There is a number of reasons behind it, but I can see that within 10 years we probably won't be able to shoot much out here anymore.

Up around your part of the country way out in the rural parts about what does an acre of land go for? Around here it's five or six thousand an acre now for the really cheap properties. And they are still going up. I think for decent locations it's more like $10,000 per acre or more. It's going up... way way up... or it has been.

That said I have spent my fair share of time plotting out what I would do with a couple hundred acres. [:D]

[UWone77]

We're moving east in 7-10 years, but we want to buy sooner than that. Way too liberal here. 30-50 acres where we've been looking is probably going to cost anywhere from 150-200k for the land, but like you said, land prices are only going to go up, so we'll see how it looks when it comes time to buy. My wife's family has a 300 acre farm that I'd love to buy out, but no one seems to want to do anything with it at this point, because no one wants to cause waves.

[alamo5000]

About 45 minutes from where I live Exxon is putting in a MAJOR campus that I think will be their new world headquarters. They are building new freeways and everything to accommodate the thing. That will bring I think something 50,000 or more very high paid jobs to be relocated to the area. And then on top of that Houston is full of stupid crazy oil money so people are hunting for places to put it. We now have about 4 or 5 equestrian training ranches around here, like where the horses jump the poles and all that. There are a couple of places that would have been ideal for a ranch and a range. One spot is down at the end of a dead end road and butts up against national forest so those people can never have new neighbors move in. They have that place built up really nice. Their driveway is 3/4 of a mile long.

Houston money is either oil, law, or medicine, with a few money manager hedge fund types thrown in there. For that crowd to spend $10M on a weekend home is nothing. Then throw on top of that they've been striking oil all around here.

A friend of mine that I go to church with-- his son likes to shoot as well and they have 1500 yards marked out...and on the backside of their private lake they have a 1 mile range. I am going to go out there after work and test the legs of my AR. But you have to be a gazillionaire to get in the game like that.

What I really think is the mover of the market though is people who don't trust the stock market and can put money aside for the long term. They just buy property as investment land and let it ride. With record low interest rates etc etc there is very few other options. I think a lot of people are playing like that. They justifiably do not trust the Obama stock market bubble and if they put the money in the bank they get nothing... so they just look for properties to buy.

[Computalotapus]

I would like to buy a 10 acre plot and build up some berms. Did the math on doing 10 ft berms to cover a 100 yds wide by 100 yds deep range.. for crappy fill dirt was looking at over $8000 to build the berms. Then you gotta plant something on it to keep it from washing away, build drainage and have a plan for maintence (mowing, targets, target replacement, refill on spots that do erode). Owning a range gets expensive if you are wanting to do something like that.

But when I do get my plot of land I will be building my own personal range like mentioned above.

[GOST]

I'm lucky, the family farm is about 160 acres. The farm also has hills to use as berms. My longest range 300 yards. There is manure everywhere, which makes good explosive targets.

[DutyUse]

We're gonna be likely buying some property in the next 3-4 years for our "final" home. More property the better, but I don't want to be out too far.

I understand this very well, and truthfully it's not for everyone. When the closest gas station is 10 miles away, and town is closer to 16, getting out for even the simplest things can certainly feel like a chore sometimes. However for us the added privacy/anonymity was very appealing. We could have a 20' bonfire, machine gun shoot, and binary explosive contest all happening at the same time and no one outside our property would be the wiser. Double edge sword though...privacy is wonderful, but you get keen real quick on how much obligation there is to handle all your own emergencies with the knowledge that no one is coming. It's a huge PITA. But after all the projects and contingency planning (and there never truly finished) you come out the other side well rounded & much more confident as a family. I know you have the drive and passion, and that's what it will take... it will be crucial and put to the test often. But there's nothing like it...It's an amazing lifestyle. Many a suburbanite couple we know have came, saw, and went from 2 car garage cookie cutters, to cutting out their own slice of paradise from the wilderness :)

[GOST]

You forgot to mention the best part about living in the country, you can pee outside whenever you want.

[mustangfreek]

You forgot to mention the best part about living in the country, you can pee outside whenever you want.

[:D]

[DutyUse]

I'm still chuckling @ the "exploding" target idea. Where I've set myself up to shoot near the house is in a different holler then the fields we use for our cattle (for obvious reasons), so I'd never considered taking aim at a cow patty, but now you've got me itching to try it out this morning before I head off to work lol

[GOST]

It works great as long as it's not cold. When they're frozen they don't explode.

[alamo5000]

The closest gas station to me is about 14 miles away. It can be a hassle but it's a double edged sword. On one hand I enjoy the country and just being able to walk out the back door and do whatever you want. I drove through Houston the other day and I felt like I got transported to Jakarta. The traffic just sucked. I felt like I needed nerve pills after just driving around a little.

Yes I can see the benefits to living in the city... maybe a better job is to be had... I could meet women easier...more places to go out and eat etc...but as for living, its better in the country for some things.

People in the city complain about driving 15 miles to get to town...yeah, I can get there in 20 minutes. In the city you need to go 5 miles and it takes 35 minutes. It's all trade offs.

[GOST]

People in the city complain about driving 15 miles to get to town...yeah, I can get there in 20 minutes. In the city you need to go 5 miles and it takes 35 minutes. It's all trade offs.

Same here, the farm is about 15 miles from the hospital but I can get there faster than the folks who live within 5 miles of it.

[Ji Rimer]

Thank you so much for all the valuable information. I am still getting the grasp of each suggestions/details. :)

[Soisauss]

Better have some huge liability insurance. A signed waiver won't save your butt in many situations.

This.