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View Full Version : CBC 77gr OTM, Black Hills 68 Heavy HP vs handloads



Former11B
3 August 2015, 11:54
For the price, I couldn't pass up getting a 50rd box each of CBC 77gr OTM ($29) and Black Hills 68gr Heavy OTM ($32). I believe Black Hills' 68gr bullet is actually a Hornady 68gr BTHP, and I am soooo close to getting my handloads with each bullet weight using Reloder 15 squared away in my latest build.

I have dialed my handloads in and think this next range trip will confirm that I've found the magic number with my 18" SPR Rainier .223 Wylde barrel.

My 16" Rainier Select loves 69gr SMKs with 24.1gr RE15 but since it wears an fixed 3.5x ACOG, I'm not doing a ton of "precision" shooting with it, just minute of man and don't require the same results I expect out of my 18" rifle.

Black Hills speaks for itself and I've heard great things about the CBC ammo....worst case scenario is I'll have 100 pieces of brand new fire-formed brass to toss in the bucket. Having a 14 month old is restricting my weekend range time, but hopefully I can get out there in 2-3 weeks when I have my handloads done and do some testing.


Unrelated: During the 62gr Green Tip scare, a friend of mine sold 1000 rounds of the 62gr LAP green tip and turned around and bought 1000ct 77gr OTM's with it....far better bullet. Smart man.

alamo5000
3 August 2015, 17:30
I have considered giving the 68gr a shot because they are cheaper than SMK...

JimmyT
4 August 2015, 05:17
I have a great load for the 69 grain SMKs with CFE 223 that is delivering sub MOA out of my 16" LaRue barreled rifle. I just made another batch of rounds to check in other rifles and if it is good to go, I load them in hundred round batches. I will try the hornandy 68 grain bullets with the same powder underneath to see if i get the same results. I am still playing with 75 grain hornady bullets and 77 grain noslier CC bullets, but need to adjust the powder charge to get the accuracy results I am searching for.

Former11B
4 August 2015, 06:07
I have a great load for the 69 grain SMKs with CFE 223 that is delivering sub MOA out of my 16" LaRue barreled rifle. I just made another batch of rounds to check in other rifles and if it is good to go, I load them in hundred round batches. I will try the hornandy 68 grain bullets with the same powder underneath to see if i get the same results. I am still playing with 75 grain hornady bullets and 77 grain noslier CC bullets, but need to adjust the powder charge to get the accuracy results I am searching for.

Whats the CFE 223 load? I've got a bunch of that as well. Thanks

The length of the Hornady bullets sort of get on my nerves because the 68gr Hornady is as long as my 77gr SMK. Because of that, I don't want to try their 75s due to case constraints.

Slippers
4 August 2015, 08:42
I've had mediocre results with 69 gr SMKs/Nosler CCs, at least compared to 77s. Ladder tested etc. They just don't seem as consistent in my 18" Noveske. I've shot some of the CBC 77 ammo and it is great, but far too costly compared to reloading, even when I factor in my time.

The CBC brass is great for reloading, too. I like that it has a tri-crimp instead of ring crimp. Much easier to get consistent results from my swager.

Former11B
4 August 2015, 09:01
I've had mediocre results with 69 gr SMKs/Nosler CCs, at least compared to 77s. Ladder tested etc. They just don't seem as consistent in my 18" Noveske. I've shot some of the CBC 77 ammo and it is great, but far too costly compared to reloading, even when I factor in my time.

The CBC brass is great for reloading, too. I like that it has a tri-crimp instead of ring crimp. Much easier to get consistent results from my swager.

Any issues with the 77s not stabilizing as well at 100yards as compared to further distances (200+?)

And even at 58 and 64 cents respectively, the CBC and Black Hills ammo is too expensive for me. I can handload two for one for those prices.

Slippers
4 August 2015, 10:07
Any issues with the 77s not stabilizing as well at 100yards as compared to further distances (200+?)

And even at 58 and 64 cents respectively, the CBC and Black Hills ammo is too expensive for me. I can handload two for one for those prices.

No issues whatsoever with stabilization. I've never even seen proof of this phenomena that gets tossed around the interwebs. I shoot from 100-600 on a regular basis with my 77 loads.

Honestly, if the bullet isn't stabilized at 100 yards how is it going to get any better the further it travels? If it yawed slightly I would think it would veer off in an inconsistent direction.

With you on cost. My physical components run me ~32 cents per round, using cci #41, tac or 8208 xbr, and nosler cc.

Former11B
4 August 2015, 10:16
Here's a Youtube video demonstrating it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY

And some comments from a retired gunsmith on it:
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/67814-does-bullet-stabilize-immediately.html

"....all bullets, no matter what weight, length, or design will indeed yaw. The longer the bullet in relation to the diameter, the larger the yaw spiral will be in diameter. The faster the bullet spins, the larger the yaw spiral will be. Length is related to weight so you can also say ... the heavier the bullet (in the same caliber) the larger the yaw spiral will be. The longer the bullet, the farther the bullet must travel before the spiral will dissipate.....A typical 55gr FMJ fired from a 223 Rem @ 3240 fps will "go to sleep" at about 75 yards. For a 70 gr bullet fired @ 3000 fps, it take about 125 yards and for a 77 gr fired @ 2750 fps, 150 yards. So ... it is quite normal for heavier bullets to print larger groups at 100 yards than at 150 yards or more."

It exists, just how much in relation to the caliber, barrel length, bullet, velocity, etc all makes a difference in the amount of it

Slippers
4 August 2015, 10:46
Very interesting! I personally haven't had my groups be smaller (in relation to MOA) at 200 yards vs 100. I've even shot groups at 600 during competition. Might just be my skill level, though. :)

Off the bench I've had 10 round groups measure right at 1 MOA at 100 yards, which is pretty close to the results Molon got as well with this barrel. Maybe I need to see if I can build up a really stable position to test some groups at 200 and see if they come in below 1 MOA.

Former11B
4 August 2015, 15:04
I haven't been able to determine if that is the case with my set up yet or not, but I'm really leaning towards no. I've also got some 77 grain tipped Sierra match King's I want to try out. I got the load from a guy who makes me look like I'm shooting a red Ryder BB gun. 23.1gr of RE15 or 22.6gr Varget, both at 2.260". He was getting consistent .3 to .4 inch groups with those loads and the 77 grain TMK bullets

The ballistic coefficient of them would also make them very good out to 600 yards, if not a little further

JimmyT
4 August 2015, 16:08
I'm using 25.4 grains of CFE 223 to get results from the 69 grain SMKs.

Sent from my KFAPWA using Tapatalk HD

BoilerUp
5 August 2015, 06:56
Here's a Youtube video demonstrating it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH9SCbCBHaY

And some comments from a retired gunsmith on it:
http://rugerforum.net/reloading/67814-does-bullet-stabilize-immediately.html

"....all bullets, no matter what weight, length, or design will indeed yaw. The longer the bullet in relation to the diameter, the larger the yaw spiral will be in diameter. The faster the bullet spins, the larger the yaw spiral will be. Length is related to weight so you can also say ... the heavier the bullet (in the same caliber) the larger the yaw spiral will be. The longer the bullet, the farther the bullet must travel before the spiral will dissipate.....A typical 55gr FMJ fired from a 223 Rem @ 3240 fps will "go to sleep" at about 75 yards. For a 70 gr bullet fired @ 3000 fps, it take about 125 yards and for a 77 gr fired @ 2750 fps, 150 yards. So ... it is quite normal for heavier bullets to print larger groups at 100 yards than at 150 yards or more."

It exists, just how much in relation to the caliber, barrel length, bullet, velocity, etc all makes a difference in the amount of it

OK, my physics and engineering skills are admittedly pretty rusty, but I'm pretty sure the only way you end up with any yaw like this is if your barrel is sending the bullet down range without a perfectly concentric spin, perhaps due to rifling or the crown. What I mean is, if there is yaw on barrel exit, that means that the bullet is not spinning perfectly about its long axis. Bullets spin about their stable axis so I can see how the yaw will dampen quickly but that initial period of yaw has to have an adverse affect on accuracy. Perhaps this is one of the defining differences between excellent barrels and mediocre barrels. Either way, I would blame the barrel not the bullet because if you are seeing this with one bullet type you should see it to varying degrees with all bullets shot from that barrel. The spin stability (how quickly the yaw dampens) is affected by bullet dimensions, but any bullet that exits the barrel with perfect spin is going to stay that way because the nature of bullet design is that they are ALL stable.

Former11B
5 August 2015, 07:11
OK, my physics and engineering skills are admittedly pretty rusty, but I'm pretty sure the only way you end up with any yaw like this is if your barrel is sending the bullet down range without a perfectly concentric spin, perhaps due to rifling or the crown. What I mean is, if there is yaw on barrel exit, that means that the bullet is not spinning perfectly about its long axis. Bullets spin about their stable axis so I can see how the yaw will dampen quickly but that initial period of yaw has to have an adverse affect on accuracy. Perhaps this is one of the defining differences between excellent barrels and mediocre barrels. Either way, I would blame the barrel not the bullet because if you are seeing this with one bullet type you should see it to varying degrees with all bullets shot from that barrel. The spin stability (how quickly the yaw dampens) is affected by bullet dimensions, but any bullet that exits the barrel with perfect spin is going to stay that way because the nature of bullet design is that they are ALL stable.

A bullet with no yaw is assuming the bullet is a perfect sphere...it needs no spin in order to maintain stability. I'm sure yaw can be increased or decreased based on the length/weight of bullet and barrel twist/length (improperly matched bullet to barrel), which brings up the fact that the weight of modern shaped bullets are primarily in the rear; the bullet has the natural tendency to want to turn around (which is why you can reverse load a bullet in a casing and shoot it at subsonic velocities with no stability issues). The only thing that keeps it from turning around in flight is the RPM (product of velocity and barrel twist). Once the bullet slows down to a certain point, that's when you see tumbling downrange (say at 700+ yards in an match .223 bullet). Or, if its not stabilized properly to begin with, you can see tumbling/keyholing at closer ranges. One more thing, I'm sure the degree of yaw or imperfection in flight can greatly be affected by imperfections in the bullet. Despite buying a top of the line bullet, I'm sure there's some level of acceptable tolerance in the "perfection" of the bullet.

I'm not an expert in this by any means...just trying to explain something I'm still researching.

SINNER
5 August 2015, 08:36
Anyone shooting a .338 Lapua at distance knows all about yaw and the effect is has at close ranges. I can easily print better groups at 5-700 yards than at 100 yards. Hard to comprehend but it certainly exists.

mustangfreek
6 August 2015, 03:47
Never have shot factory 77gr stuff..too expensive..when like said can be made cheaper..

Have had good results with sierra 69's..alot more then the Hornady 68's, but that was thru a 18" RA match that i do not have any longer. My load then for both working up and using was with Varget powder 7 CCI 450's... settled on 24.9 load of varget under a 69gr SMK at 2.250 produced MOA results with a crappy polished trigger off a bench with bipod/rear bag..



Dont quite have my own reloading setup quite a 100%....or a new shooter to test with yet, But have some sierra and nosler 77 cc's and some TAC,XBOR to eventually play with to see how they do