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Army Chief
24 January 2009, 03:06
Background: This actually grew out of an earlier thread (http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259) (page 6) on the topic of Magpul's new MOE handguards, but it probably rates separate consideration, now that we're seeing some new optics entering production in 2009, such as Trijicon's TR-24 or the new ultra-compact ACOG.

My comments from the other thread appear below, and while this topic has been bandied-about many times in many places, there is always room for renewed input and discussion.


I've spent most of my career as an iron sights guy, and while I have some experience with Aimpoints, the only glass I use on a regular basis is a S&B Zenith Flash Dot (1.5-6x42mm) on my hunting carbine. I'm a very young 43, but 43 nonetheless, so I'm beginning to appreciate some magnification for general range work as presbyopia begins to set in.

For close-in work, obviously that can work against you, so I wouldn't hesitate to go with a Short Dot if I thought it offered the best compromise. Trijicon has me rethinking that just a bit with the TR-24 release, and I had some earlier interest in the Nightforce NXS -- though the latter didn't offer much in the way of daylight-visible illumination.

I'm looking for variable versatility, as opposed to a 1:1 RDS -- and am willing to pay for the right product -- but I'm just not settled on what that might be. (ACOGs definitely appeal to me as well, but at what cost for close-in work? I don't really want the compexity of a Docter riding shotgun.)


So, has the game really changed that much with the promise of these new offerings from Trijicon and others, or do we figure to end the year with much the same array of basic options as we have today? My underlying question really is built on the premise that the S&B Short Dot -- the weight and cost notwithstanding -- still represents my idea of the right sort of compromise, but there is plenty of room here for dissenting views.

AC

Ryo
24 January 2009, 10:14
Personally I went with a Eotech with fliip magnifier so I could do both long(er) range and close up. Aimpoints are good for the same setup, but my Eotech is 1 MOA dot versus the Aimpoint T-1 I have which is 4 MOA. Of course the applications of the Eotech and the T-1 are different. I have looked and touched the ACOG and I'm impress of their clarity and fiber optic sights, but I didn't want magnification all the time, and the cost drove me away. Also I wanted night vision capability which both Aimpoint and Eotech gave me.

Hope you find what you want.

Army Chief
24 January 2009, 11:08
Without reviving the well-worn Aimpoint versus EOTech debate, I did consider going the magnifier route, as it would seem to offer the best of both worlds, as you suggest.

There is a bit of a weight and complexity penalty associated with going in this direction, but that isn't a show stopper by any means. My real objection lies more with the compromised field of view associated with these in-line 3x units. Have you found this to be a legitimate concern in actual usage?

AC

Stickman
24 January 2009, 12:19
AC


I think we are going to see a continual evolution of the 1x4 variable optics. At a certain point, Eotech or Aimpoint will sell their circuits, and a reasonable battery life will become an option on these platforms.

I keep waiting for more manufacturers to make a one power optic that switches over to 4x with the flick of a switch. The technology and ability is obviously there but we are going to see guys to think outside the box a bit. Once this happens, we will see pricing come down as well.

I think we are at least 4-5 years away from seeing this in mainstream optics, or even coming close.

Army Chief
24 January 2009, 13:00
OK, I'll bite, Stick: what is on your duty weapon right now? What do you prefer on the range, and if you had to start completely over from scratch tomorrow, what would be at the top of your list for a solid median (non-SBR, non-SPR) application?

AC

Stickman
24 January 2009, 13:52
AC,


Here she is. If I were to do it all over again, and in a little while I will retire this to a dedicated training weapon, I would go with an off the shelf Noveske or the upcoming Daniel Defense M4 carbine.

I use the Gear Sector GS-2P sling, and see no reason to change away from it. I currently use an Eotech, but I know that the Aimpoint T-1 would be more durable, so would my M2 or M4.

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul%20II/IMG_7611%201028%20Stick.jpg

Army Chief
24 January 2009, 14:15
Didn't mean to tax you too much with the questions, as I was driving mostly at optics; that said, it's always good to see a weathered battlestick, and learn more about a competent man's configuration choices.

As you have no doubt deduced, my experience is more with baselined military carbines, so I enjoy hearing how the boys in blue set up their patrol rifles. We've come a long way from my (admittedly limited) days in LEO when showing up with a box stock Colt Sporter II Carbine was considered overkill in and of itself. :)

AC

jmart
24 January 2009, 16:57
AC


I think we are going to see a continual evolution of the 1x4 variable optics. At a certain point, Eotech or Aimpoint will sell their circuits, and a reasonable battery life will become an option on these platforms.

I keep waiting for more manufacturers to make a one power optic that switches over to 4x with the flick of a switch. The technology and ability is obviously there but we are going to see guys to think outside the box a bit. Once this happens, we will see pricing come down as well.

I think we are at least 4-5 years away from seeing this in mainstream optics, or even coming close.

IOR's introducing something close to this: a scope that flips between 1x and 4x. 35mm tube, short length, lit reticule. No details yet on whether or not reticule illumination is daylight visible or battery life, but it appears an interesting evolution of optics.

IOR 1x/4x Optic (http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=418&Itemid=1)

Stickman
24 January 2009, 17:48
IOR's introducing something close to this: a scope that flips between 1x and 4x. 35mm tube, short length, lit reticule. No details yet on whether or not reticule illumination is daylight visible or battery life, but it appears an interesting evolution of optics.

IOR 1x/4x Optic (http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=418&Itemid=1)




Outstanding, I can't believe I missed that at SHOT. I really should have stopped by their booth. Now I will sit here kicking myself for awhile. Its too bad I don't know anyone or have any contacts at IOR, I would like to work with that on a few different levels.

If anyone gets a chance to get their hands on one, please post your feedback. I think that is a great step in the right direction.

Paulo_Santos
24 January 2009, 21:19
The 1x4 scopes are quickly becoming my favorite scopes. Unfortunately no one has yet to put it all together for a perfect scope.

The IOR 1x4 looks nice, but with their 6x zoom technology, they should have went with the 1x6 scope and used a modified MP-8 reticle instead of the caliber specific one they are using. And it should be FFP instead of the SFP.

I have the Swarovski 1x6 scope and it is nearly perfect, except for the turrets and the illumintation should be a little brighter.

The Short Dots are nice, but they are heavy and they are not a true 1x.

The Trijicon 1x4 Accupoint looks like it will be a real winner, especially if it has target style turrets, which I heard it does.

Ryo
24 January 2009, 22:17
That IOR looks like a good one if it's optics are crisp, clear, durable and accurate.

Some one get out there and tell them Stickman wants to take a picture of their scope! :)

Army Chief
25 January 2009, 01:02
I have the Swarovski 1x6 scope and it is nearly perfect, except for the turrets and the illumintation should be a little brighter.

Good catch! Admittedly, I left the Z6I off of the list because so few at home are really familiar with it; that said, many of my German colleagues feel that it bests the Short Dot in a great many ways. I don't know if I would go that far, as I simply don't have enough experience with it to make that call, but clearly, these is an argument to be made in favor of the Austrian entry.

With Extended Eye relief options and excellent reticle choices, the only wild card seems to the daytime illumination capability, as the turret configuration issue is not really a show-stopper for me. The larger question is, do you gain double the capability at double the price of something like the TR-24 or IOR 1x/4x? I suppose that depends somewhat upon how effective these new offerings will prove in actual use, but they seem to hold great promise.

Of course, as a previous Schmidt & Bender customer, I'm still hearing the siren call of the Short Dot 2. It's a difficult call to make when you aren't in a position to view the competition side-by-side ... and I don't exactly have ready access to a corner tactical shop.

AC

Uglyduck
25 January 2009, 13:34
Like many I've debated this with myself for a while and kept quiet, mainly not to spark any unnecessary debate. However, W.E. is full of folks in the know so I'll break my silence since the odds are good that someone has valuable input and will offer constructive criticism/experiences.
The Horus Talon http://www.horusvision.com/talon.php is short, light weight, and a non-caliber specific BDC. There isn't a lot of info out there but previous reviews have been positive with the exception of a non-daylight visible reticle when illuminated.
Elcan has an interesting offer with the Spectre DR, but it has trouble maintaining zero from what I understand. This is 2nd hand info from some folks that rely on optics more than I, and it may have been limited to the units they received. But, when all their shooters normally shoot 1inch groups at 100yds then use the DR and shoot 10inch groups, it leads me (and them) to believe there's an issue with the optic. It has the lever system you spoke of Stick, and I'm sure everyone has seen or heard of it. It may be the cats meow but if it doesn't hold zero what good is it? So, I'm a little leery, especially at their price point.
Finally, GRSC has some interesting offerings as well with the advent of their 1-6x variable with illuminated BDC reticle, which will be manufactured by Ellis optics in addition to their 1-4x. Previous 1-4x's were manufactured by Millett and it shares the same body and glass as the DMS-1. At $350 it has excellent value, and Ed is passionate about giving the gunfighter an edge with his optics and has excellent customer service.
None of these optics meet my ideal 1-4x criteria but come close. No/Long battery life, light weight, daylight visible reticle, BDC, clear glass, good FOV, and both CQB and medium range capable. Hopefully Sticks prediction is correct, but for now I don't think any of the recent offerings are truly groundbreaking as far as 1-4x optics are concerned...but they are heading in the right direction. I apologize for the winded dissertation.

Stickman
25 January 2009, 15:10
Like many I've debated this with myself for a while and kept quiet, mainly not to spark any unnecessary debate.



Stop keeping stuff in, I like what you had to say. [:D]



I mentioned before that I think scope companies will team with Eotech or Aimpoint to branch off with their illuminated crosshair technology. I really like what Trijicon does with their fiber panel, but a battery pack would bump it up a little, I just don't know what it would do to the pricing....

jmart
25 January 2009, 17:16
I'm not sure if Aimpoint's and Eotech's illumination technologies transfer over to conventional, focussing optics with prisms.

What I'd like to see is increases in battery technology to package more amp hours into a given battery size, maybe some integrated recharging interfaces with optics that you could plug into a cigarrette lighter or 120 outlet, maybe some solar panel integarted into optics that keep batteries always topped up, some increases in efficiencies of lighting sources that draw less energy, maybe some special coatings on etched reticules that light up better/reflect better given the same illumination intensity. These are just some thoughts, not sure if any of it would be practical.

Paulo_Santos
25 January 2009, 22:32
Like many I've debated this with myself for a while and kept quiet, mainly not to spark any unnecessary debate. However, W.E. is full of folks in the know so I'll break my silence since the odds are good that someone has valuable input and will offer constructive criticism/experiences.
The Horus Talon http://www.horusvision.com/talon.php is short, light weight, and a non-caliber specific BDC. There isn't a lot of info out there but previous reviews have been positive with the exception of a non-daylight visible reticle when illuminated.
Elcan has an interesting offer with the Spectre DR, but it has trouble maintaining zero from what I understand. This is 2nd hand info from some folks that rely on optics more than I, and it may have been limited to the units they received. But, when all their shooters normally shoot 1inch groups at 100yds then use the DR and shoot 10inch groups, it leads me (and them) to believe there's an issue with the optic. It has the lever system you spoke of Stick, and I'm sure everyone has seen or heard of it. It may be the cats meow but if it doesn't hold zero what good is it? So, I'm a little leery, especially at their price point.
Finally, GRSC has some interesting offerings as well with the advent of their 1-6x variable with illuminated BDC reticle, which will be manufactured by Ellis optics in addition to their 1-4x. Previous 1-4x's were manufactured by Millett and it shares the same body and glass as the DMS-1. At $350 it has excellent value, and Ed is passionate about giving the gunfighter an edge with his optics and has excellent customer service.
None of these optics meet my ideal 1-4x criteria but come close. No/Long battery life, light weight, daylight visible reticle, BDC, clear glass, good FOV, and both CQB and medium range capable. Hopefully Sticks prediction is correct, but for now I don't think any of the recent offerings are truly groundbreaking as far as 1-4x optics are concerned...but they are heading in the right direction. I apologize for the winded dissertation.

The Horus 1x4 scope was one of my favorite scopes i ever had and regret selling it. I did a full review on it a couple of years ago. That reticle was great. Some people can't get used to it and say it is cluttered, but I didn't have any issues with it. The only reason I sold it was because they were supposed to come out with a newer version that they had removed the large center dot and had somehow incorporated a red dot into it. For some reason, they never released it. I was going to get a new one, but the Swarovski came along.

Ryo
26 January 2009, 02:27
That is a lot of information on that Horus scope. Never seen anything like it.

Army Chief
26 January 2009, 05:16
Sounds like what we need is a 1x-3/4/6x variable review/guide, as there appear to be more worthy contenters in this game than we originally may have thought.

If we stick just to the premium lines (i.e. those over $500), we're still looking at more than a half-dozen possible contenders ...

Elcan (Specter DR)
Ellis Optics (MK-7 Omega)
Horus (Talon)
IOR (1x/4x Tactical)
Leupold (Mark 4 CQ/T)
Meopta (MeoStar R1 KDot)
Millet (DMS)
Nightforce (NXS)
Schmidt & Bender (Short Dot)
Swarovski (Z6i)
Trijicon (TR-21/24)
US Optics (SN4S)
Zeiss (Victory Varipoint)

... no doubt I've missed a couple, too. Not all of these are "tactical" glass per accepted definitions, but even so, it is increasingly hard to see the forest for the trees.

AC

Uglyduck
26 January 2009, 07:40
The Horus 1x4 scope was one of my favorite scopes i ever had and regret selling it. I did a full review on it a couple of years ago. That reticle was great. Some people can't get used to it and say it is cluttered, but I didn't have any issues with it. The only reason I sold it was because they were supposed to come out with a newer version that they had removed the large center dot and had somehow incorporated a red dot into it. For some reason, they never released it. I was going to get a new one, but the Swarovski came along.

Paulo, your review was the one I was refering to! Its one of the few reviews I've ever seen on the Talon. It looks as though Horus replaced the previous H47 reticle with the dot in the center with the newer H50 circle/crosshair design. Some units within the military have used their more powerful optics for bolt guns but the 1-4x hasn't caught on anywhere from what I can tell. Rumor has it that if you take one of their classes you get a scope upon completion. I don't know if there's any truth to that though. They're a tough company to reach, I tried to contact them regarding dealers but was unsuccesful. G&R Tactical is an internet dealer though. I would really like to see one "in the flesh"

Paulo_Santos
26 January 2009, 10:54
Paulo, your review was the one I was refering to! Its one of the few reviews I've ever seen on the Talon. It looks as though Horus replaced the previous H47 reticle with the dot in the center with the newer H50 circle/crosshair design. Some units within the military have used their more powerful optics for bolt guns but the 1-4x hasn't caught on anywhere from what I can tell. Rumor has it that if you take one of their classes you get a scope upon completion. I don't know if there's any truth to that though. They're a tough company to reach, I tried to contact them regarding dealers but was unsuccesful. G&R Tactical is an internet dealer though. I would really like to see one "in the flesh"

The model they were supposed to come out with is the H48 Reticle. I even had the Brouchure and it was up on the website for a while. I usually got my Horus scopes from G&R Tactical or Horus directly. There is also a guy on SipersHide that is a dealer. That would be cool if you got a free scope upon completion of the class.

I honestly don't know why that scope hasn't caught on. I love the Non-Caliber Specific Reticles. I've tried and tried to get Trijicon to make an ACOG with non-caliber specific reticles but they don't want to hear it. I even sent them ideas on reticles that they could use and they didn't want to hear it, so I'm not too happy with them. Here are some of the ideas:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/paulosantos/German4.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f376/paulosantos/ACOG-TA31H.jpg

Uglyduck
27 January 2009, 21:27
AC, good idea. I'm willing to contribute what I can. Paulo, I've heard Ed from GRSC also approached Trijicon with BDC type reticle options and received little welcome. It seems they aren't interested although I'm sure its more complicated than that. Engineering challenges are surely a factor. A fiber optic lit reticle with a battery backup/enhancement would be ideal. The two you posted look great, I really like the 2nd one. Too bad they didn't take, I think this market is larger than some manufacturers believe it is and would be extremely popular and in high demand, especially with an electrical system like Aimpoint or Eotech like Stick suggested.

Ryo
27 January 2009, 22:11
Some companies are narrow on the market they want to target.. but it's not a bad thing for them. Some are too small to expand, other are too narrow minded, and some just don't have the capability. Once one company expands to fill a hole, the others will jump in and try to take the pie.. but who wants to risk their capitol to design it.

Army Chief
27 January 2009, 22:57
For the moment, I'm still getting all of the Short Dot configurations straight in my head ... with a little help from Mark Cromwell at S&B USA.

One of the things that Mark provided that was most helpful was a comparison of the old 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (FFP) model and the new 1.1-4x24 Zenith LE (SFP) variant.

Basic Short Dot Comparison

1.1-4x20 Short Dot
First Focal plane
5.6 MOA dot at 100m (1.1-4x)
10.6” Overall length
18.5 oz.
FOV on 1.1: 96ft / 100yds
4 interchangeable BDC’s (Optional*)
Non-Locking Illumination (Optional*)
Non-Locking Windage (Optional*)
No spare battery provisions
“CQB” & #7 reticles (Slight blue tint)

1.1-4x24 Zenith SD LE
Second Focal plane
5.6 MOA (1.1) -1.5 MOA (4x)
11.4” (Old) 10.1”(New) OAL
19.5 oz.
FOV on 1.1: 108ft / 100yds
Calibrated for M855 **
Locking Illumination
Non-Locking Elevation (Optional*)
Locking Elevation
Zenith “Posicon” under cap
Spare battery under cap
FD2 & FD7 reticles w/ No Tint
FDP3 reticle (Winter 2008)

* Features found on the Locking Short Dot with calibrated locking turrets.
** Calibrated for 75 grain Hornady TAP & M118LR on special order only.


AC

Paulo_Santos
28 January 2009, 01:34
AC, good idea. I'm willing to contribute what I can. Paulo, I've heard Ed from GRSC also approached Trijicon with BDC type reticle options and received little welcome. It seems they aren't interested although I'm sure its more complicated than that. Engineering challenges are surely a factor. A fiber optic lit reticle with a battery backup/enhancement would be ideal. The two you posted look great, I really like the 2nd one. Too bad they didn't take, I think this market is larger than some manufacturers believe it is and would be extremely popular and in high demand, especially with an electrical system like Aimpoint or Eotech like Stick suggested.

The only they would be willing to do it was if I paid approximately 100k in advance or if a dealer would foot t
e bill for the scopes. They had a minimum amount of scopes they would have to sell. And I thought I was doing them a favor and helping them out with the idea. I did speak with Ed a couple of times on the phone about it. He's a super nice guy.

Venom
31 January 2009, 09:00
how does the elcan specter dr score ? It has a 1-4x magnification - at a flick of a lever-,a good compact shape and a clear sight picture. Atleast that was the impression I had.

Uglyduck
7 February 2009, 09:38
The only they would be willing to do it was if I paid approximately 100k in advance or if a dealer would foot t
e bill for the scopes. They had a minimum amount of scopes they would have to sell. And I thought I was doing them a favor and helping them out with the idea. I did speak with Ed a couple of times on the phone about it. He's a super nice guy.

I'll pitch in 50K if you spot the other half...guarantee that we would make the money back. [:)] Ed's new 1-6x looks promising, I hope he releases some more information soon.

Army Chief
19 February 2009, 09:28
Blasted a 170 pound boar the other night using a S&B 1.5-6x42mm Zenith FlashDot -- a very near cousin of the Short Dot LE -- and I've got to say that the more I use this glass, the more impressed I am with S&B.

The Short Dot may not be perfect, but it's admittedly treading mighty close to it for my purposes.

AC

COOPER
5 March 2009, 22:36
how does the elcan specter dr score ? It has a 1-4x magnification - at a flick of a lever-,a good compact shape and a clear sight picture. Atleast that was the impression I had.

Does anybody have any experience with the Elcan SpecterDR? I hear it's heavy and can't match the battery life of the EOTech...

Alaskapopo
11 March 2009, 00:23
I am really liking this optic right now. Fast up close and good at distance. Swarovski's 1-6. The illumination is good even in the brightest sun light which is rare here in Alaska.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/IM001083.jpg

Here it sits atop my Noveske N4 upper with a Saber Defense lower I assembled with a Geissle trigger.


I also like the Aimpoint with a 3x Magnifier as well as seen here on my Colt. Not sure which is best overall yet. Still playing with both.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20auto%20rifles/Colt6920-1.jpg

I believe the future is in the 1-4 -6 power variables. That is the direction everybody seems to be going form the military to 3 gun shooters.
Pat

Ryo
11 March 2009, 01:13
Interesting.. someone stated that they thought the Swarovski's 1-6 wasn't bright enough (on page 1).

I have a Eotech 553 with the 3x magifier.. works pretty well too. I sometimes put the magnifier with my T-1. :)

Wish they had Stickman's suggestion of add or remove magnifications at a flip of a switch.

Alaskapopo
11 March 2009, 02:19
Interesting.. someone stated that they thought the Swarovski's 1-6 wasn't bright enough (on page 1).

I have a Eotech 553 with the 3x magifier.. works pretty well too. I sometimes put the magnifier with my T-1. :)

Wish they had Stickman's suggestion of add or remove magnifications at a flip of a switch.

I feel its very bright and I have used it quite a bit. Used in one three gun match last summer where it was sunny no clouds in the sky. Recticle was very bright.
Pat

rob_s
12 March 2009, 08:13
I think that we'll see a switchable 1x to 3/4x (not variable) from Aimpoint very shortly. With the introduction of their magnifier and the mircros I think they're right on the verge of making it happen, and in a package the size of the M4 models.

Ryo
12 March 2009, 11:22
Oh that would be cool.

Uglyduck
15 March 2009, 08:59
Does anybody have any experience with the Elcan SpecterDR? I hear it's heavy and can't match the battery life of the EOTech...

I have no personnel experience so discount this post if you like. Some friends purchased a few and didn't care for them because of zeroing problems. I'm not sure what the culprit was but operator error was a non-issue. They did however, like the overall design, illumination, and reticle layout. To the contrary though, others have had good experiences and absolutely love it.

Ryo
18 March 2009, 15:20
Based on Stickman's pictures.. I finally discovered the Trijicon Accupoint. Don't know why my eyes just skimmed over it.. even in this thread.

Well discover actually means bought..
I figured out a new equation..
Stickman photos = smaller wallet size.

So what about the TR24.. I'm tempted in buying one of those, but Googling it doesn't seem to come up with when they might release it.

Uglyduck
28 April 2009, 21:26
IOR Pitbull (http://www.valdada.com/product/6928a7e3-e3bc-48d0-9e8a-4ac78862cd81.aspx)

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/Pitbull.jpg

Reports from IOR are that this will be available with several mounting options, one being a twist off european style QD mount. Similar to the EAW mount. Also, the center dot is the only portion of the reticle that is illuminated and is 3-MOA.

GriffonSec
28 April 2009, 21:44
And coming in May, that's the optic at the top of the list for me at the moment. It's hard to decide to take a plunge sans reviews, or wait a bit and see some field results. I'm definitely excited to finally see some number on this one though!

Uglyduck
30 April 2009, 21:55
It's hard to decide to take a plunge sans reviews, or wait a bit and see some field results.

I'm with ya. I'm curious about the battery life, reticle design, and mounting options. The space behind the turrets looks a little narrow. It certainly looks good on paper though. Well, besides the beef crammed into a little package. 23oz? Must be made of ultra dense unobtanium.

GriffonSec
1 May 2009, 04:34
Yup, the weight has me concerned more than anything. My 16" middy weighs in at 8.4 lbs with a full mag, and 10 lbs will (in my eyes anyway) be a heavy dual purpose rifle. Regardless, I'm holding off entirely on any optic for the moment until I hear some feedback.

Funny, the space behind the turrets was brought up in a phone conversation last night about it. IOR's site does state it comes with rings of choice (low, mid, high), it would be nice to see how they've set that up.

Uglyduck
1 May 2009, 11:08
Ellis Optics Mk-7 Omega (http://www.ellisoptics.com/TemplateOmega.aspx)

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/1-6_photo.jpg

Similar to the IOR but a little lighter (3oz), red/green reticle, smaller FOV, and Horseshoe BDC as well. This is Ed of GRSC's design I beleive. The heading is a link. Oh yea, and its 1-6x.

rob_s
1 May 2009, 11:12
Why the hell are those things so heavy? The Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2 Illum. Reticle (http://leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-mrt-riflescopes/mark-4-1-5-5x20mm-mrt-m2-illum-reticle/) is only 15 oz.

GriffonSec
1 May 2009, 11:20
Just a WAG but could the compact-ish-ness and larger diameter call for more of a heavier duty housing? I was flipping through the Midway catalog and noticed the weight on most 1-4x and was wondering the same....

UD- Interesting find....

Uglyduck
1 May 2009, 14:20
Originally posted by Army Chief
Sounds like what we need is a 1x-3/4/6x variable review/guide, as there appear to be more worthy contenters in this game than we originally may have thought.

Any chance of reviving this idea?

Gray
1 May 2009, 19:29
Just a little plug for Ed (GRSC). I have known him for 30 years. He has a passion for getting his scope vision into a practical reality and has worked on it for more thna 10 years. Many folks may not realize it, but he was the guy who first developed the receiver end plate single and double side QA sling attachment point. (He holds the patent on it.)
He developed a single-point quick-release sling system back in the early 90's, quite a bit before they were common knowledge. He is absolutely reputable in all that he does. (Disclaimer: I have never and do not now have any financial interest in any of Ed's stuff; he's just a long time buddy.)

Uglyduck
1 May 2009, 21:12
I have known him for 30 years. He has a passion for getting his scope vision into a practical reality and has worked on it for more thna 10 years.

His drive seems to come from an understanding of the "boots on the ground" need for an optic than can do dual duty as a Type I and Type II optic, not the money. Very respectable.

Army Chief
1 May 2009, 23:52
Any chance of reviving this idea?

I certainly wouldn't rule it out, but the long pole in the tent is likely just getting access to a number of different units at roughly the same point in time. I don't know that anyone on the staff has really had the time or opportunity to set something like this up. I do think it will happen, but likely not before we deal with some other projects first.

I tend to favor Schmidt & Bender because I have used their glass for other applications, but I'm still quite interested in the Nightforce NXS (particularly if the daylight illumination issue has been worked out), and while the IOR and EO are not on my list at the moment, I would certainly be interested in seeing how they perform. Same goes for the new AccuPpoint.

It may take a few months before all of these units are available in sufficient numbers to arrange a test, but again, I do think we'll get to the point were a guide will become a reality.

AC

rob_s
2 May 2009, 04:44
It may take a few months before all of these units are available in sufficient numbers to arrange a test,

and by then there will be some new kind of vaporware that we're all anxiously awaiting to add to the eval...

[bash]

[:D]

Cameron
3 May 2009, 20:46
1 AND 4 PITBULL

http://valdada.com/product/6928a7e3-e3bc-48d0-9e8a-4ac78862cd81.aspx

TECHNICAL DATA

MAGNIFICATION..................................... ....................................1x or 4x
OBJECTIVE SIZE.............................................. ...........................32mm
FIELD OF VIEW @ 100 YDS............................................... ............38 - 144 ft
EXIT PUPIL .................................................. ...............................32 - 8mm
EYE RELIEF .................................................. ...............................3.5 in
DIOPTRICAL ADJUSTMENT........................................ .................... -4 TO +4 DPT.
CLICK VALUE @ 100 yds............................................... .............0.1 MRAD (1 cm)
RETICLE ADJUSTMENT RANGE ................................15 MRAD (54 MOA) @ 100yds
TUBE DIAMETER.......................................... .................................35 mm
LENGTH .................................................. .....................................7.25 in
WEIGHT............................................ ...........................................23 oz.
BATTERY........................................... ...........................................CR 2032
COATINGS.............................MC-7 BROAD BAND FULLY MULTICOAT, ANTIREFLEX
OPTICAL GLASS............................................. .........PREMIUM SCHOTT, GERMANY

http://valdada.com/images/productimages/Scopes/Tactical%20Scopes/3x24Proto-web%205.jpg

http://valdada.com/images/productimages/Scopes/Tactical%20Scopes/3x24Proto-web%204.jpg

http://valdada.com/images/productimages/Scopes/Tactical%20Scopes/3x24Proto-web%208.jpg


I really like the idea of the 1 and 4 IOR, although I would have to say be cautious. I have had a total of 3 IOR 1.1-4x26mm (http://valdada.com/product/0472477b-943f-488d-a8e0-8f8d30752518.aspx) scopes and two of the three failed to hold zero, while the guys at Valdada are absolutely top rate guys, who absolutely stand behind their product and were good to deal with, we had a third unit of the same scope, my buddy's, also would not hold zero. I couldn't take the continually wandering zero and I finally replaced mine with a Leupold MK4 1.5-5x20mm (http://leupold.com/tactical/products/scopes/mark-4-mrt-riflescopes/mark-4-1-5-5x20mm-mrt-m2-illum-reticle/) and have been happy so far. YMMV

I will be interested to hear how someone gets on with the Pitbull before I shell out and by one.

Cameron

Cohibra45
9 May 2009, 11:16
I am going with weight (the lighter the better) concerns for now. That IOR and Horus are heavy!!! My DMS is 18oz and that is too heavy for me.

Right now, I think that the Trijicon Accupoint is the best of all worlds. Their 1-4x24 only weighs 14.4oz........now that's getting there!!!;) Best of all, there are no batteries to burn out.

Now for me, if they only came out in a 1-6 power (preferably with a 35mm tube), I'd be all over it!!!:P

jp0319
10 May 2009, 08:31
Sounds like what we need is a 1x-3/4/6x variable review/guide, as there appear to be more worthy contenters in this game than we originally may have thought.

If we stick just to the premium lines (i.e. those over $500), we're still looking at more than a half-dozen possible contenders ...

Elcan (Specter DR)
Ellis Optics (MK-7 Omega)
Horus (Talon)
IOR (1x/4x Tactical)
Leupold (Mark 4 CQ/T)
Meopta (MeoStar R1 KDot)
Millet (DMS)
Nightforce (NXS)
Schmidt & Bender (Short Dot)
Swarovski (Z6i)
Trijicon (TR-21/24)
US Optics (SN4S)
Zeiss (Victory Varipoint)

... no doubt I've missed a couple, too. Not all of these are "tactical" glass per accepted definitions, but even so, it is increasingly hard to see the forest for the trees.

AC

Leupold MK4 MRT 1.5-5?

trinydex
12 May 2009, 15:00
why is the accupoint "revolutionary?" is it because it will have good day time and night time illumination? good glass? just a combination of all its features?

what makes any of the listed optics better than another? they seem to all have similar features, but it's boiling down to day time illumination, reticle and weight?

what makes a good intermediate range optic?

Ryo
12 May 2009, 15:32
Even those those questions are valid.. some of it is perspective to the eye of the beholder.

Any case I don't really consider the Accupoint revolutionary at this time since fiber optics has been used before in scopes.. ie ACOG (also same producers of the Accupoint)

What's nice about the Accupoint is that the optics looks clear (at least to me with my limit experience) and the fiber optic reticle glows very visibility whether your in light or dark No batteries makes it a plus. Of course this won't replace the reflex sight like the Aimpoint, but I like it because it's magnification is adjustable on the tube.. while the Aimpoint T-1/CompM4/etc or Eotech sights require external magnification and batteries. Usage I wouldn't use this scope in CQB.. prefer my T-1 and my Eotech 553.

Of course not being in the military or LE, my views are with very little true life experience. Just what I can observe when I train.

trinydex
12 May 2009, 15:34
i noticed the trijicon the swarovski and several other of these intermediate optics have no bdc or any hash marked reticles.

is this something just not required for an intermediate range optic?

Uglyduck
12 May 2009, 18:00
why is the accupoint "revolutionary?" ...what makes a good intermediate range optic?

I don't know if this was meant to be rhetorical or not, but I'll throw my .02 in anyway. IMO the TR-24 is an improvement over the TR-21 but not revolutionary to the world of 1-4x optics. It offers true 1x, good FOV, and shorter eye relief (than the TR-21). I think it will replace the TR-21 as Trijicons offering to the 1-4x arena. As far as the other question goes, I think only the individual can decide that based on intended use.

trinydex
12 May 2009, 20:45
i'm absolutely asking everything in earnest, i keep rereading this thread because i'm trying to understand the subtleties between options when before i thought "they were all the same."

does anyone know why s&b shortdot doesn't have a true 1x when trijicon and others do?

Kiwi
16 May 2009, 14:03
i'm absolutely asking everything in earnest, i keep rereading this thread because i'm trying to understand the subtleties between options when before i thought "they were all the same."

does anyone know why s&b shortdot doesn't have a true 1x when trijicon and others do?

The minimum power setting was 1.1 due to the fact that the original flashdot was designed to be a 1.25 power - when you made it a 1 power it actually had a slight ‘ghost’ image (the inside of the tube at the objective end) when your eye got closer than normal for proper eye relief. 1.1 power made this go away with very little to no difference for up close reflex work.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/short-dot/

trinydex
16 May 2009, 14:59
Ellis Optics Mk-7 Omega (http://www.ellisoptics.com/TemplateOmega.aspx)

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/1-6_photo.jpg

Similar to the IOR but a little lighter (3oz), red/green reticle, smaller FOV, and Horseshoe BDC as well. This is Ed of GRSC's design I beleive. The heading is a link. Oh yea, and its 1-6x.

this scope seems perfect but then i found that thread about the eye relief

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=441239

any thoughts on this?


The minimum power setting was 1.1 due to the fact that the original flashdot was designed to be a 1.25 power - when you made it a 1 power it actually had a slight ‘ghost’ image (the inside of the tube at the objective end) when your eye got closer than normal for proper eye relief. 1.1 power made this go away with very little to no difference for up close reflex work.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/short-dot/

mmm i forgot about that, thanks. so is the shortdot 2 a ground up engineering for true 1x?

Army Chief
16 May 2009, 22:58
Negative. The original Zenith that the SD LE is based upon was/is also a 1.1x by design. Of course, I use a Zenith 1.5-6x42 Flash Dot (FD7) quite often, and really don't think that it's that objectionable even at 1.5x ... I suppose it really depends upon your intended applications.

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/images/stories/produkte/550png-produktbild/produktansicht_pm-1-5-6-20-pm-flash-dot.png

Also, although very little has been said about to this point, the German S&B catalog lists yet another interesting variation: the 1.5-6x20 Flash Dot (http://www.schmidtundbender.de/pm/1-5-6x20-pm-flash-dot-2.html) in the PM II line.

AC

rob_s
17 May 2009, 06:34
Here's what I think we need...

under 1lb with mount
1 OR 4
under 12" long
Daylight-visible illuminated with at least a 500 hour battery life
Eotech-style reticule with crosshairs added
under $1k

Army Chief
17 May 2009, 09:00
I think the Nightforce NXS could come quite close, if the daytime illumination qualities of the FC-1 were dramatically improved. I know there have been reports of an improved variant for government use, but these aren't exactly on the "obtainables" list where the general market is concerned.

AC

Paulo_Santos
18 May 2009, 10:04
The ideal scope would be the Swarovski 1x6 with a better reticle and/or better turrets.

Uglyduck
18 May 2009, 11:51
Here's what I think we need...

under 1lb with mount
1 OR 4
under 12" long
Daylight-visible illuminated with at least a 500 hour battery life (or fiber optic/tritium)
Eotech-style reticule with crosshairs added (or a Circle dot BDC)
Large FOV
under $1K

100% agreed with the minor (personal) additions above

rob_s
18 May 2009, 13:13
My issue with the FO/tritium is that it's never delivered on it's promises. I've owned and shot with several trijicon optics and the reticule turns to a black when in subdued light. It *may* be visible in total blackness, but what good does that do me?

Uglyduck
18 May 2009, 16:41
Agreed. They do wash out, but I still like to "no battery" idea. Maybe a fiber optic primary/battery backup or vise versa. Even a tri-power type setup would be nice. I'm sure there are engineering hurtles when putting something like that in a 1-4x, but I'm trying to think outside the box a little. We put a man on the moon, I'm sure it can be done. Regardless, I think we can agree that any route taken must have a reliable and long duration illuminated reticle. I like where you're headed Rob [:D]

jmart
18 May 2009, 16:55
Leupold CQT isn't too far off the mark of what Rob listed:

1-3X
Illuminated (although not sure if daylight visible in bright sun, but definitely in subdued lighting/shade)
17oz
Circle /Dot, but no cross hairs
Several hundred hours battery life

rob_s
18 May 2009, 17:30
That 500 hours is super-anemic, FWIW. I was just trying to be realistic. :D

What it really needs is 10,000 hours so that you can turn it on and leave it on all year long, and change the batteries on your birthday.

The CQT illumination also has daylight issues.

NO battery would be ideal, but companies like Aimpoint are making so much headway in terms of battery life that it's almost like having no battery at all.

FWIW, I think Aimpoint will be the one to make the breakthrough for us here. Add the Aimpoint micro to the Aimpoint 3x magnifier and you're getting damn close.

bigcoastie
18 May 2009, 18:55
What do ya'll think about bdc when it comes to 1-4x optics?

jmart
18 May 2009, 20:20
That 500 hours is super-anemic, FWIW. I was just trying to be realistic. :D

What it really needs is 10,000 hours so that you can turn it on and leave it on all year long, and change the batteries on your birthday.

The CQT illumination also has daylight issues.

NO battery would be ideal, but companies like Aimpoint are making so much headway in terms of battery life that it's almost like having no battery at all.

FWIW, I think Aimpoint will be the one to make the breakthrough for us here. Add the Aimpoint micro to the Aimpoint 3x magnifier and you're getting damn close.

I know it's just a 1X scope, but do you like the Leupold prismatic's reticle? It has the circle/dot/cross hair combo that you mentioned earlier......

Links courtesy of CSGunworks.....

Here it is illuminated against a wall
http://lh5.ggpht.com/CSGUNWORKS308/SB-F94KCadI/AAAAAAAAALg/dz2bHhQ56-E/P1030671.JPG?imgmax=512

Non-illuminated against wall
http://lh3.ggpht.com/CSGUNWORKS308/SB-GlYKCajI/AAAAAAAAAMU/SOhLPdsdk1Y/P1030678.JPG?imgmax=512


Illuminated inside
http://lh5.ggpht.com/CSGUNWORKS308/SB-Gh4KCagI/AAAAAAAAAL4/iEaxPFpua48/P1030675.JPG?imgmax=512

rob_s
19 May 2009, 02:04
That reticule is interesting. I'd have to see it at magnification over a a target at distance, say 200+ yards, to get an idea if it was workable or not. I think I'd still rather not have the crosshairs illuminated, but without trying it I couldn't say for sure.

Paulo_Santos
21 May 2009, 16:15
What do ya'll think about bdc when it comes to 1-4x optics?


It is very nice to have, especially when shooting out to 400-500 yards man-sized targets. If you are shooting under 300 yards, it is not necessary to have. Either way, caliber specific BDC Reticles suck.

Cohibra45
31 May 2009, 16:38
Speaking of reticles.............I know it's the least expensive of most all scopes mentioned here, but I really like the reticle on the DMR-1. It is like the German three post with the circle dot. The dot is also only 1 MOA so it really doesn't clutter any target. I just wish they had better glass......and of course weighed less. 18oz is heavy in my book. I would love to see them bring out a 2-7 that would weigh around 14oz or less!!! That would be perfect in my book.[:D][:D][:D]

Uglyduck
10 July 2009, 11:33
Review of the IOR Pitbull

Tactical Gun Fan (http://www.tacticalgunfan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=578&Itemid=1)

Uglyduck
30 July 2009, 10:49
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/Rifle056-Copy.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/Rifle057-Copy-1.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/Rifle055-Copy.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/Rifle048-Copy.jpg

Stickman
30 July 2009, 10:55
Looks good, expensive, but what good glass isn't? I had hoped to see a price under 1K with that optic.

Uglyduck
30 July 2009, 11:04
The price certainly doesn't make it available to the masses, but it is still a cheaper alternative to the Elcan. I hope to get some better reticle shots from the owner soon.

trinydex
30 July 2009, 11:06
how's the eye relief

Uglyduck
30 July 2009, 11:08
Not my glass, but on paper its 3.5 inches



1x
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/1x.jpg

1x Illuminated
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/uglyfireduck/Optics/1xillum.jpg