PDA

View Full Version : Fireclean...is it just re-branded Crisco Vegetable oil? Video...



JGifford
6 September 2015, 09:00
Background: George Fennel (the inventor of FP-10 and later Weapon Shield) has stated that FIREClean is identical to Crisco Vegetable Oil. Going so far as to state that on a spectrometer, they have an identical signature.
http://i61.tinypic.com/25k22kx.jpg
I set to prove this either correct, or incorrect.

Same-chemicals have same-specific gravities. In other words, they will mix when introduced to one another. This makes sense, right? You pour honey into more honey, and it all looks the same. You pour new motor-oil into a container of the same new motor oil, and they don't "layer", they are indistinguishable. Water into water...water. So on and so forth, provided both chemicals are identical and of the same temperature.

So...I bought some Crisco vegetable oil, and some Fireclean, stored them both at room temperature, and poured them into the same container. Not necessarily conclusive if they mix, but pretty damning of Mr. Fennel's hypothesis of them being identical if they DON'T mix.

Well, here's the video. You decide...does this look like more of the same chemical being introduced to itself?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDOMu0jYETU

http://i57.tinypic.com/2a5iqkh.jpg

All said and done, I simply have not found another product which keeps my weapons running longer. Here is another test I did between FIRECLEAN, and LUCAS EXTREME DUTY GUN OIL. My method was to fire 5 rounds on a clean weapon, using 55gr TULA. I then fired 100 rounds of .223 suppressed. Then I removed the suppressor, and fired another 5 rounds of TULA, and noted any ejection pattern changes, as I know that with my weapon, the faster the carrier cycles, the more "forward" the ejection pattern. (I will note that the Troy magazine I used suffered multiple bolt-over-base failures with both products at the same rate, and this rifle has NEVER! had ANY malfunction prior to that.)

Lucas when clean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eiis-9Je4Q
Lucas after 100 rounds suppressed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsNyV6hf_k0
Fireclean when clean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf3kUBCYblM
Fireclean after 100 rounds suppressed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg2oqpIPfl8
You will note that the carrier velocity as depicted by ejection pattern is demonstrated to have almost not changed on the FIREClean lubed weapon, while the Lucas weapon, starting out cycling a bit faster than the FIREClean, by the end, is now cycling slower.

Simply put, my experience with FIREClean is that it works better than any other product, "designer" or not, and now we have another take on whether or not it's "vegetable oil from Crisco"...it sure doesn't act like it!

Hmac
6 September 2015, 10:11
Background: George Fennel (the inventor of FP-10 and later Weapon Shield) has stated that FIREClean is identical to Crisco Vegetable Oil. Going so far as to state that on a spectrometer, they have an identical signature.


This would not surprise me a bit if true, and would serve to reinforce my opinion that Americans have to be the most gullible marks ever when comes to lubricants of any kind. Any day now I expect to see "FireClean" on the side of somebody's NASCAR car, in which case FireClean sales would skyrocket.

Uffdaphil
6 September 2015, 10:33
Fry up some chicken in both and do a blind taste test.

Seriously though, to show Fennell's claim is baseless, Fireclean will need to file a lawsuit or be perceived as a fraud.

JGifford
6 September 2015, 10:45
Fry up some chicken in both and do a blind taste test.

Seriously though, to show Fennell's claim is baseless, Fireclean will need to file a lawsuit or be perceived as a fraud.

I disagree. I think anyone who cares to objectively compare the two can see that FIREClean is not the same. Fennell refuses to supply the print-out/data from the spectrometer, so really, he hasn't done anything but make a statement. I could tell him that Bleu Cheese dressing is identical to Weaponshield on MY spectrometer, but without that spectrometer data...

How on earth can you think that two chemicals are the same chemical...when they won't even mix in the same container at the same temperature!?

GOST
6 September 2015, 11:02
In my opinion Fennell would have been better off providing data on his products. FIREclean has good reviews from many resources, the only downfall I see is their price. I personally still use Slip2000 EWL, it has performed well in my firearms.
By the way good review JGifford.

UWone77
6 September 2015, 11:19
Instead of worrying about what your competition is doing, it seems more prudent to worry about yourself, your own sales, and product.

VIPER 237
6 September 2015, 11:26
Instead of worrying about what your competition is doing, it seems more prudent to worry about yourself, your own sales, and product.

Exactly. This puts a bad taste in my mouth for Weaponshield products now.

Uffdaphil
6 September 2015, 11:50
I disagree. I think anyone who cares to objectively compare the two can see that FIREClean is not the same. Fennell refuses to supply the print-out/data from the spectrometer, so really, he hasn't done anything but make a statement. I could tell him that Bleu Cheese dressing is identical to Weaponshield on MY spectrometer, but without that spectrometer data...

How on earth can you think that two chemicals are the same chemical...when they won't even mix in the same container at the same temperature!?

I never said I thought they were the same chemical. Your test looks persuasive to me.

My point: By posting publically Fennel has done injury to Fireclean in the marketplace. If he is wrong, he is liable for damages. A company that does not defend against false accusations looks guilty and will lose sales. For what possible reason would Fireclean not sue?

Tyrannosaur
6 September 2015, 13:07
Doesn't look like they're the same to me. I'm not a scientist but.... I like Gost like Slip 2000 but also use Fireclean

gatordev
6 September 2015, 14:22
There's lots of drama in this industry, but to me, it seems like certain portions of this industry seek out drama. Same with chicks...er, females. I'm not a huge fan of drama, female or otherwise. Nice job with the "strata video" JGifford.

UWone77
7 September 2015, 13:58
Exactly. This puts a bad taste in my mouth for Weaponshield products now.

I just don't know what you have to gain by proving to use your competition's product is crap. Prove to me your product is great. Like you said, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I don't use either product.

Hmac
8 September 2015, 05:08
There's lots of drama in this industry, but to me, it seems like certain portions of this industry seek out drama.

Good lord...the entire oil industry. Once the product gets to the consumer level the rules of PT Barnum take over. Nobody ever looks at the objective data, they want to use the brand of oil that their pappy told 'em about and by god will defend its superiority to the death. And then, there's the Cult of Amsoil......

I've always loved the guys who say "I've been using XXX for years and have never had a single problem". As if oil-brand related failures were common.

toolboxluis00200
8 September 2015, 06:46
Image if u posted this in ar15.com. their server will crash [BD]

JGifford
8 September 2015, 09:48
Image if u posted this in ar15.com. their server will crash [BD]

It was surprisingly chill except for the self-acclaimed nuclear physicist?
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_7/680632_Fireclean___is_it_just_re_branded_Crisco_Ve getable_oil__Video___.html&page=1

SINNER
9 September 2015, 04:19
He must have worked at Chernobyl.

six8
9 September 2015, 05:29
He must have worked at Chernobyl.

LMAO... Nice

VIPER 237
9 September 2015, 07:37
I posted this on M4C.
All I know is that Fireclean just works, if it really is just rebranded veggie oil then oh well, I won't stop using it. I've done some pretty intensive testing (20,000 rounds in 10 days kind of testing) and nothing stay on longer and cleans up easier. Not Slip2000, not Mpro7, not Froglube, not mobile 1, not gunzilla, nothing else compares in my opinion. Sure mobile 1 may be cheaper, but it blows and burns off a hell of a lot faster, plus when running suppressed who likes to breathe in atomized petroleum particles?

alamo5000
9 September 2015, 17:09
I've done some pretty intensive testing (20,000 rounds in 10 days kind of testing)

I so need your ammo budget.

VIPER 237
9 September 2015, 19:20
I so need your ammo budget.

I'm so glad I wasn't paying that bill haha.

Evintos
13 September 2015, 08:24
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/

More fuel to the fire.

Thompson
13 September 2015, 11:07
... so this was just posted: Yes, It's True: FireClean is Crisco (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/)

gatordev
13 September 2015, 13:42
... so this was just posted: Yes, It's True: FireClean is Crisco (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/)

That article is referencing the above Vuurwapenblog post.

Former11B
13 September 2015, 14:50
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/


Burn off tests and spectral analysis, along with some patent info points towards YES, it's $15/oz canola oil

UWone77
13 September 2015, 15:04
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/


Burn off tests and spectral analysis, along with some patent info points towards YES, it's $15/oz canola oil

Merged your thread with the existing one.

WHSmithIV
13 September 2015, 15:07
I posted this on M4C.
All I know is that Fireclean just works, if it really is just rebranded veggie oil then oh well, I won't stop using it. I've done some pretty intensive testing (20,000 rounds in 10 days kind of testing) and nothing stay on longer and cleans up easier. Not Slip2000, not Mpro7, not Froglube, not mobile 1, not gunzilla, nothing else compares in my opinion. Sure mobile 1 may be cheaper, but it blows and burns off a hell of a lot faster, plus when running suppressed who likes to breathe in atomized petroleum particles?

Why pay 10,000% more then? Just simply go get some canola oil at the grocery store.

DutyUse
13 September 2015, 15:14
Copied this off Larry Vickers FB:

Here is an official statement from FIREClean about the recent allegations that it is nothing more than Crisco ;

We would like to address recent false or misleading allegations that range from simply misguided to false, defamatory, and libelous. These attacks have been made by competitors and others that paint our product in a false or misleading light. The allegations do not focus on actual performance or relevant tests, and draw a misleading picture.

FIREClean™ Advanced Gun Oil is a specifically formulated, technically superior weapon reliability solution that resists the harshest firing with enormous heat and carbon overload that seize most weapons. It is a formulation- made specifically for exceptional reliability in firearms and weapons- not a re-labeled or re-packaged product.

FIREClean™ has been proven in combat in Afghanistan by US Special Operations Forces, and is in use by Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force Special Operations. It is also in use by elements of the FBI, DHS, DEA, CBP, Secret Service, Department of State, various intelligence agencies as well as numerous State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies.

FIREClean™ has been successfully tested on and is in use on weapons from handguns and shotguns to fully automatic and suppressed individual weapons. It has also been successfully tested on and is in use on crew served weapons from 5.56mm M249s to 40mm Automatic Grenade Launchers.

In addition to over 3 years of Combat and Service/Duty usage, FIREClean™ has been used on the competition circuit by the best shooters in the world, including the US Army Marksmanship Unit. It has been used to win multiple National Championships in Pistol, 3 Gun, Sniping, and many other competitive shooting disciplines.

We are proud to be of service to those that bear arms in defense of our freedom, those that serve to keep us safe in our communities, and those that carry firearms for self defense. We are also pleased to be of service to tens of thousands of competitors, hunters, and recreational shooters- all of whom appreciate the highest possible levels of reliability and safety.

We believe that our performance speaks for itself. We offer what we and many others regard as the best, highest performing product on the market. We have not commented on the formulation, nor will we do so now. We have focused on performance, and we will continue to do so.

Rest assured that we will defend our good name against false, defamatory and libelous allegations using the full measure of remedies available to us.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

GOST
13 September 2015, 15:18
I've seen what the spectral analysis shows and what JGifford's mix test shows. I have a hard time believing that Crisco and Fireclean are exactly the same from the mix test alone. If you pour 2 bottles of the same motor oil in a bucket they will mix, the Fireclean and Crisco didn't. If Fireclean is not Crisco then they may be preparing to answer these claims with a lawsuit, only time will tell. And again I have never used Fireclean.

GOST
13 September 2015, 15:25
Is anyone gonna put their money where there mouth is and use Crisco as their gun lube?

UWone77
13 September 2015, 15:25
Why pay 10,000% more then? Just simply go get some canola oil at the grocery store.

You should try that and report back.

voodoo_man
13 September 2015, 16:01
Copied this off Larry Vickers FB:

Here is an official statement from FIREClean about the recent allegations that it is nothing more than Crisco ;

We would like to address recent false or misleading allegations that range from simply misguided to false, defamatory, and libelous. These attacks have been made by competitors and others that paint our product in a false or misleading light. The allegations do not focus on actual performance or relevant tests, and draw a misleading picture.

FIREClean™ Advanced Gun Oil is a specifically formulated, technically superior weapon reliability solution that resists the harshest firing with enormous heat and carbon overload that seize most weapons. It is a formulation- made specifically for exceptional reliability in firearms and weapons- not a re-labeled or re-packaged product.

FIREClean™ has been proven in combat in Afghanistan by US Special Operations Forces, and is in use by Army, Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force Special Operations. It is also in use by elements of the FBI, DHS, DEA, CBP, Secret Service, Department of State, various intelligence agencies as well as numerous State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies.

FIREClean™ has been successfully tested on and is in use on weapons from handguns and shotguns to fully automatic and suppressed individual weapons. It has also been successfully tested on and is in use on crew served weapons from 5.56mm M249s to 40mm Automatic Grenade Launchers.

In addition to over 3 years of Combat and Service/Duty usage, FIREClean™ has been used on the competition circuit by the best shooters in the world, including the US Army Marksmanship Unit. It has been used to win multiple National Championships in Pistol, 3 Gun, Sniping, and many other competitive shooting disciplines.

We are proud to be of service to those that bear arms in defense of our freedom, those that serve to keep us safe in our communities, and those that carry firearms for self defense. We are also pleased to be of service to tens of thousands of competitors, hunters, and recreational shooters- all of whom appreciate the highest possible levels of reliability and safety.

We believe that our performance speaks for itself. We offer what we and many others regard as the best, highest performing product on the market. We have not commented on the formulation, nor will we do so now. We have focused on performance, and we will continue to do so.

Rest assured that we will defend our good name against false, defamatory and libelous allegations using the full measure of remedies available to us.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/The-LAV-Larry-Vickers.jpg

That's what I think of that...

UWone77
13 September 2015, 16:07
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/The-LAV-Larry-Vickers.jpg

That's what I think of that...

I have no skin in the game. I have a bottle of Fireclean somewhere, but I usually use Slip2000.

Anyhow, that Fireclean response is a very long winded answer that addressed nothing. I'm more interested to see a lawsuit, if there is one coming down the pipe.

Former11B
13 September 2015, 16:22
Merged your thread with the existing one.

Thanks; sometimes I don't see all new posts on the mobile viewer which I use 99.9% of the time


I like Froglube because of the natural ingredients (it's food safe/edible....and so is fire clean apparently lol) and doesn't have all the "known to the state of California..." warnings.

voodoo_man
13 September 2015, 16:51
I have no skin in the game. I have a bottle of Fireclean somewhere, but I usually use Slip2000.

Anyhow, that Fireclean response is a very long winded answer that addressed nothing. I'm more interested to see a lawsuit, if there is one coming down the pipe.

I'm sure someone is going to get sued.

It's easy to launch a smear campaign without knowing all the facts behind it. Hell, we don't even know for sure if that graph is accurate and for all we know one little blip of a difference can mean the world - it's science after all, right?

I have a bottle I got for free. It lubes up like CLP, I can clear with it and it stays lubed after long uses.

I can only speak from personal experience, I watched a bottle of fireclean unfuck an SR25 that kept FTEject, fixed it up and it ran fine after...

http://i.imgur.com/ZI2tvFt.jpg

That's F2S applying some during a class -> http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/03/aar-dual-use-carbine-f2s-consulting-feb.html

As for the lav meme style photo - there is literally nothing I could care less about than his ramblings on something.

DutyUse
13 September 2015, 17:04
I had to re-read the response just to make sure I was copying current info and not some lame company header introduction

Farva
13 September 2015, 18:03
I use fireclean and like it, by no means am I fan boy of it nor do I really care if it is in fact just crisco. It works for me and I like that about it. That being said their response that was posted up above to me , like UW said, answered nothing. It was very similar to a politician dodging a question by answering it with smoke and mirrors and distraction. If it's similar to crisco then I have a huge bottle of it in the pantry [BD]

Farva
13 September 2015, 18:06
Also don't you just love "industry" drama?

JGifford
13 September 2015, 18:16
Well, George Fennell has fired back at LAV:

He's a hired gun....plain and simple. Now he's caught in a deception, but he's trying to defend it with more lies. SMH
Which was later edited to:

He's a hired gun....plain and simple. Now he's caught in a deception, but he's trying to defend it. SMH
https://www.facebook.com/LarryVickers/posts/10156047624305416?comment_id=10156047736230416

At this point, it's just a train wreck. A big, lubricant filled train. Full of lube. And wreck. And a former door-kicker and several lube-smiths.

GOST
13 September 2015, 18:16
I'm not a chemist so I'm wondering if the spectral analysis proves nothing more than Fireclean is a vegetable based lipid? Maybe all this drama will drive the price down. If so I may start using it.

GOST
13 September 2015, 18:17
Lubegate 2015 full throttle.

JGifford
13 September 2015, 18:25
Lubegate 2015 full throttle.

*Not a gay porno

GOST
13 September 2015, 18:31
*Not a gay porno

Might as well be one.

VIPER 237
13 September 2015, 19:10
I'm not a chemist so I'm wondering if the spectral analysis proves nothing more than Fireclean is a vegetable based lipid? Maybe all this drama will drive the price down. If so I may start using it.

Exactly. The graph wavelengths are fairly similar because all three are oils, however there are varying amounts of components in each oil. All those graphs show is that FireClean contains bio based oils. IR spectroscopy does not give you a qualitative analysis.

JGifford
13 September 2015, 20:16
Exactly. The graph wavelengths are fairly similar because all three are oils, however there are varying amounts of components in each oil. All those graphs show is that FireClean contains bio based oils. IR spectroscopy does not give you a qualitative analysis.

Rapeseed oil
Soybean oil
Fireclean oil


These 3 samples are what the graphs were from. Anyone who thinks Soybean oil = Rapeseed oil needs their head examined. So then asserting that since the graphs are similar, Fireclean must be "Crisco" is the height of stupidity.

voodoo_man
14 September 2015, 02:17
Rapeseed oil
Soybean oil
Fireclean oil


These 3 samples are what the graphs were from. Anyone who thinks Soybean oil = Rapeseed oil needs their head examined. So then asserting that since the graphs are similar, Fireclean must be "Crisco" is the height of stupidity.

But the interwebz said so!!

Anyway zero fucks given about this lubegate nonesense, keep on keepin on.

Farva
14 September 2015, 06:02
We have it all wrong...http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/14/3a36c01d72de5a89cac68625aefcaf3a.jpg

Evintos
14 September 2015, 08:22
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/where-theres-smoke-theres-liar/

Train wreck is getting bigger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o

A lot of people are kind of hung up on the Crisco brand but in the Weapon Shield v FireClean video, George Fennel also uses Wesson oil (another brand of vegetable oils) and Pam as an example (approximately 1 minute 45 seconds in). His Facebook post is definitely a not-so-subtle jab at one of his competitors but claims that FireClean is a vegetable based oil (similar to canola oil) looks correct.

It's like anyone that calls all tissue paper, Kleenex. Another example would be people who call hook and loop, Velcro. So on and so forth. This situation has been blown way out of proportion.

UWone77
14 September 2015, 12:34
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/where-theres-smoke-theres-liar/

Train wreck is getting bigger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o

A lot of people are kind of hung up on the Crisco brand but in the Weapon Shield v FireClean video, George Fennel also uses Wesson oil (another brand of vegetable oils) and Pam as an example (approximately 1 minute 45 seconds in). His Facebook post is definitely a not-so-subtle jab at one of his competitors but claims that FireClean is a vegetable based oil (similar to canola oil) looks correct.

It's like anyone that calls all tissue paper, Kleenex. Another example would be people who call hook and loop, Velcro. So on and so forth. This situation has been blown way out of proportion.

It's definitely getting bigger.

Wow.

schambers
14 September 2015, 12:41
Honest hypothetical question:

If fire clean never existed, and there was a general consensus within the firearms community that Crisco worked very well as a lubricant, would you give it a shot? Use it as your primary form of lubrication?

Dstrbdmedic167
14 September 2015, 12:57
The biggest shame here is that he is still running windows XP...

velocity2006
14 September 2015, 13:36
Honest hypothetical question:

If fire clean never existed, and there was a general consensus within the firearms community that Crisco worked very well as a lubricant, would you give it a shot? Use it as your primary form of lubrication?

Most likely. I currently just use synthetic motor oil and it's been working just fine for the last 5 years. I stopped drinking the name brand oil juice a long time ago. For the money the oil cannot be beat, may smell a bit, but that's the only negative. For heavier metal on metal contact (my 1911's and M1/M14 style actions) I use universal gun grease, and that holds up pretty well also.

WHSmithIV
14 September 2015, 15:10
Rapeseed oil
Soybean oil
Fireclean oil


These 3 samples are what the graphs were from. Anyone who thinks Soybean oil = Rapeseed oil needs their head examined. So then asserting that since the graphs are similar, Fireclean must be "Crisco" is the height of stupidity.


So, what we need is an accurate chemical composition analysis taking pure vegetable oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, canola oil, soybean oil, rapseed oil, corn oil and this fireclean oil and find out what it actually is. That shouldn't be very difficult since it can be done with a mass spectrometer. Once it is 100% verified what it exactly is, then there could be a pretty massive lawsuit from whoever makes the actual oil since it is unlikely that fireclean has been paying them royalties for using their product and re-marketing it.

GOST
14 September 2015, 16:28
So, what we need is an accurate chemical composition analysis taking pure vegetable oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, canola oil, soybean oil, rapseed oil, corn oil and this fireclean oil and find out what it actually is. That shouldn't be very difficult since it can be done with a mass spectrometer. Once it is 100% verified what it exactly is, then there could be a pretty massive lawsuit from whoever makes the actual oil since it is unlikely that fireclean has been paying them royalties for using their product and re-marketing it.
You're making a lot of assumptions.

UWone77
14 September 2015, 16:44
So, what we need is an accurate chemical composition analysis taking pure vegetable oil, safflower oil, sunflower oil, canola oil, soybean oil, rapseed oil, corn oil and this fireclean oil and find out what it actually is. That shouldn't be very difficult since it can be done with a mass spectrometer. Once it is 100% verified what it exactly is, then there could be a pretty massive lawsuit from whoever makes the actual oil since it is unlikely that fireclean has been paying them royalties for using their product and re-marketing it.

Will... c'mon man. Do you even know what you're talking about?

Former11B
14 September 2015, 18:03
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/where-theres-smoke-theres-liar/

Train wreck is getting bigger.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abBKYE8lP7o

A lot of people are kind of hung up on the Crisco brand but in the Weapon Shield v FireClean video, George Fennel also uses Wesson oil (another brand of vegetable oils) and Pam as an example (approximately 1 minute 45 seconds in). His Facebook post is definitely a not-so-subtle jab at one of his competitors but claims that FireClean is a vegetable based oil (similar to canola oil) looks correct.

It's like anyone that calls all tissue paper, Kleenex. Another example would be people who call hook and loop, Velcro. So on and so forth. This situation has been blown way out of proportion.

It doesn't matter if it's pee in a bottle, if they use different ammo to overplay the "burn off" effect of Fireclean (which I think is a joke any how) then that's mistruth/intentional misdirection to beef up the product

DutyUse
14 September 2015, 18:10
I doubt there are many (if any) malfunctions that guys run into that, having used a different lube, would/could have been prevented. Use your favorite lubricant and move on...

gatordev
14 September 2015, 18:55
I doubt there are many (if any) malfunctions that guys run into that, having used a different lube, would/could have been prevented. Use your favorite lubricant and move on...

Eh, it depends on how resilient the lube is. I personally don't use FC, but I continually hear at how well it holds up under temp/use, and I can understand that being a selling point. If one lube doesn't hold up under use, it can cause malfunctions compared to one that does hold up. I've had this exact issue pop up with Slip 2k on a suppressed gun in the Florida summer. With regular Slip 2K, I couldn't get through 200 rounds without the BCG severely slowing down. When I switched back to Slip 2K EWL, it keeps on running with no issues. The regular Slip 2K was free (Slip shipped it to me accidentally and just said keep it), so I didn't really care it didn't work, but it was an important data point.

Overall ambient temp can be another important factor that, depending on the lube, could cause malfunctions. Having one lube that I know will operate at 0*C and 40*C makes life much easier than having to buy different types based on a location I may be going to. There's many lubes out there that will work across that temperature span, but there's also some that won't.

DutyUse
14 September 2015, 19:04
Eh, it depends on how resilient the lube is. I personally don't use FC, but I continually hear at how well it holds up under temp/use, and I can understand that being a selling point. If one lube doesn't hold up under use, it can cause malfunctions compared to one that does hold up. I've had this exact issue pop up with Slip 2k on a suppressed gun in the Florida summer. With regular Slip 2K, I couldn't get through 200 rounds without the BCG severely slowing down. When I switched back to Slip 2K EWL, it keeps on running with no issues. The regular Slip 2K was free (Slip shipped it to me accidentally and just said keep it), so I didn't really care it didn't work, but it was an important data point.

Overall ambient temp can be another important factor that, depending on the lube, could cause malfunctions. Having one lube that I know will operate at 0*C and 40*C makes life much easier than having to buy different types based on a location I may be going to. There's many lubes out there that will work across that temperature span, but there's also some that won't.

Good point. I totally concede temp can have an big impact and you should make educated decisions. where I'm coming from is hearing guys prattle on endlessly about why their favorite synthetic motor oil x is better then equally good brand y. Marketing folks have gotten so good these days that they've made little cults lol

alamo5000
14 September 2015, 19:09
This thing is gonna be as big as Hillary's email scandal.

WHSmithIV
14 September 2015, 23:47
Will... c'mon man. Do you even know what you're talking about?


Probably not, but apparently nobody else knows for sure 100% what it actually is anyway.

gatordev
15 September 2015, 03:30
Good point. I totally concede temp can have an big impact and you should make educated decisions. where I'm coming from is hearing guys prattle on endlessly about why their favorite synthetic motor oil x is better then equally good brand y. Marketing folks have gotten so good these days that they've made little cults lol

So true. I've said it before, but there's two subjects in the internet gun world that bring out the most emotion and bizarre-ness: piston guns and lube.

JGifford
15 September 2015, 18:01
Most likely. I currently just use synthetic motor oil and it's been working just fine for the last 5 years. I stopped drinking the name brand oil juice a long time ago. For the money the oil cannot be beat, may smell a bit, but that's the only negative. For heavier metal on metal contact (my 1911's and M1/M14 style actions) I use universal gun grease, and that holds up pretty well also.

I wonder if that smell is benzene?
http://www.who.int/ipcs/features/benzene.pdf
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/benzene/basics/facts.asp

VIPER 237
15 September 2015, 22:53
This was posted on M4C by Andrew Tuohy who runs Vuurwapenblog.com and is the writer of the IR test.


My goal was to see if FireClean was identical to Crisco vegetable or canola oil. The IR test was sufficient for these goals. As I clearly stated in the article I did not, previous to that test, think that FireClean was Crisco, and at the time of publication I did not think that FireClean was Crisco. At the time of this post I do not think FireClean is Crisco.

The test was sufficient to determine the conclusions of the article which were, as I will restate, that FireClean is not Crisco, but that FireClean is "probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking."

That is what the article said.

TFB picked it up with the title "FireClean is Crisco" which was NOT what I said and not what the test showed. While I cannot retract a statement I never made, if you would like me to restate for you that FireClean is not Crisco, I will be happy to do so here. FireClean is not Crisco.

I encourage everyone to conduct their own testing and publish the results.

Pyzik
16 September 2015, 05:12
I hadn't really been following this since I don't use FireClean. Pretty interesting though. Especially the Vickers switching ammo conspiracy (though, I wouldn't put it past a good marketing team).

At the end of the day the lesson is the same as always is, do your own research, use what works for you in your environment.

Really why does anyone care if it IS a modified vegetable oil, if it works?

The wife and I have a pistol class coming up. I will completely clean and degrees my M&P and use only vegetable oil for the class.
I'll post my findings.

Former11B
16 September 2015, 05:55
I wonder if that smell is benzene?
http://www.who.int/ipcs/features/benzene.pdf
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/benzene/basics/facts.asp

Which is extremely health hazardous. I'm friends with a former Reconnaissance Marine (before they were called MARSOC) who got Leukemia attributed to Benzene during the burning crude lakes and oil rain while deployed for Desert Storm

I was around some burning/lit crude but nothing of that significance fortunately....the winds were usually in my favor.

WHSmithIV
16 September 2015, 09:16
Really why does anyone care if it IS a modified vegetable oil, if it works?

The wife and I have a pistol class coming up. I will completely clean and degrees my M&P and use only vegetable oil for the class.
I'll post my findings.

I think the only reason people care is because of the price. Nobody likes being taken for a ride or lied to. If it actually is only vegetable oil put into a bottle at a 2000% markup, people will feel very cheated.

I'll be interested with the results of your test Pyzik.

UWone77
16 September 2015, 09:24
I think the only reason people care is because of the price. Nobody likes being taken for a ride or lied to. If it actually is only vegetable oil put into a bottle at a 2000% markup, people will feel very cheated.

I'll be interested with the results of your test Pyzik.

No one has lied. That's a stretch. If that's the case why aren't people up in arms over paying a premium for any petroleum based lubricant? Why not just buy a quart of motor oil for $3?

Pyzik
16 September 2015, 09:28
No one has lied. That's a stretch. If that's the case why aren't people up in arms over paying a premium for any petroleum based lubricant? Why not just buy a quart of motor oil for $3?

Lots of AK guys actually do just buy motor oil. [BD]

I still don't understand why people are so mad.
A company saw a market, developed a product (I don't think it's simply vegetable oil, but it would be plant based oil with additives), marketed the the product VERY WELL.

They had to recoup cost for R&D, that huge marketing campaign and make some money. It appears they did a good job and probably made a lot of money.

Good for them!

Free market.

GOST
16 September 2015, 09:30
No one has lied. That's a stretch. If that's the case why aren't people up in arms over paying a premium for any petroleum based lubricant? Why not just buy a quart of motor oil for $3?

Very true. Most all motor oils have the same base composition, but different additives that give them their unique performance characteristics. The motor oil life is usually based on how long these additives can hold up. From what I've read the spectral analysis showed that it's a vegetable lipid, but does not show what the additives are.

voodoo_man
16 September 2015, 09:33
I used fireclean to cook eggs today.

Tasted....tactical

Pyzik
16 September 2015, 09:33
Very true. Most all motor oils have the same base composition, but different additives that give them their unique performance characteristics. The motor oil life is usually based on how long these additives can hold up. From what I've read the spectral analysis showed that it's a vegetable lipid, but does not show what the additives are.

EXACTLY.

EDIT

I used fireclean to cook eggs today.

Tasted....tactical

Haha.

SINNER
16 September 2015, 09:51
All I have ever used is Aeroshell and diesel weight engine oil. I actually tried Froglube once because it was free and that garbage was overpriced even then.

And unless you have oil dripping off the bolt carrier I would bet you are exposd to more particulates and carcinogens in rush hour traffic than caused by lube used when firing a weapon.

JGifford
16 September 2015, 10:31
All I have ever used is Aeroshell and diesel weight engine oil. I actually tried Froglube once because it was free and that garbage was overpriced even then.

And unless you have oil dripping off the bolt carrier I would bet you are exposd to more particulates and carcinogens in rush hour traffic than caused by lube used when firing a weapon.
This is why I walk barefoot through city dumps. I mean, I am around more stuff at the hospital, so it's fine.

toolboxluis00200
16 September 2015, 10:42
I use Remington spray. To clean and Lucas oil to lube

Evintos
16 September 2015, 11:52
Very true. Most all motor oils have the same base composition, but different additives that give them their unique performance characteristics. The motor oil life is usually based on how long these additives can hold up. From what I've read the spectral analysis showed that it's a vegetable lipid, but does not show what the additives are.

http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/


The professor had something to say about the formulation and its relevance as a gun oil. “I don’t see any sign of other additives such as antioxidants or corrosion inhibitors. Since the unsaturation in these oils, especially linoleate residues, can lead to their oligomerization with exposure to oxygen and light, use on weapons could lead to formation of solid residues (gum) with time. The more UV and oxygen, the more the oil will degrade.”

It's likely that people expected a eco-friendly, non-toxic blend of oils with additives. The lack of additives (if true) is probably one of the biggest (if not the biggest) contributors to the outrage (feigned or otherwise). I 'd wager that the amount of controversy would have been negligible had spectral analysis shown that there are common or proprietary additives. The cost for a blend of readily available/accessible vegetable based lipids seemingly without additives (aka FireClean) is outrageous.

Txfilmmaker
16 September 2015, 15:02
Lots of AK guys actually do just buy motor oil. [BD]

I still don't understand why people are so mad.
A company saw a market, developed a product (I don't think it's simply vegetable oil, but it would be plant based oil with additives), marketed the the product VERY WELL.

They had to recoup cost for R&D, that huge marketing campaign and make some money. It appears they did a good job and probably made a lot of money.

Good for them!

Free market.

I have to agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Former11B
17 September 2015, 08:48
http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/


It's likely that people expected a eco-friendly, non-toxic blend of oils with additives. The lack of additives (if true) is probably one of the biggest (if not the biggest) contributors to the outrage (feigned or otherwise). I 'd wager that the amount of controversy would have been negligible had spectral analysis shown that there are common or proprietary additives. The cost for a blend of readily available/accessible vegetable based lipids seemingly without additives (aka FireClean) is outrageous.

LOL No additives, just straight vegetable oil that will gum up over time. Awesome.

velocity2006
17 September 2015, 08:59
I wonder if that smell is benzene?
http://www.who.int/ipcs/features/benzene.pdf
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/benzene/basics/facts.asp

Doesn't smell sweet, but more research into the oil shows they do use Benzenesulfonic acid. As already stated, though, you probably are more exposed to it while sitting in traffic or standing outside a bar where people are smoking.

http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/725925pdf?$PDF$

JGifford
17 September 2015, 20:38
LOL No additives, just straight vegetable oil that will gum up over time. Awesome.

Reading the patent actually shed a lot of light on that, as did some researching OSI's of high oleic acid organic compounds.

GOST
22 September 2015, 19:52
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/09/prweb12974454.htm

Tyrannosaur
22 September 2015, 20:12
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2015/09/prweb12974454.htm

Basically there saying it's NOT a good idea to use oils you have in your home and kitchen to lube your $1000 + firearm? Should I not be filling the oil in my car with Crisco too? I remember when it was just good ol' Hoppes