Red Dot/Holographic Site discussion

[alamo5000]

I went to a gun show today so that I could fondle some of the goods. While I was there, among other things I was able to play with a Trijicon SRS. Admittedly I have to say I have sort of been predisposed to that one but not for any particular reason other than I think it would be good. That said I know a few people are not that keen on them for one reason or another.

Before I start forking out dough on building an SBR I want to have the whole thing thought out and obviously an optic is a big part of that. For one reason or another I don't like buying a bunch of stuff on a half thought out concept.

That said my current criteria are as follows:

I want something nice. That said I don't see any reason to over pay for something that honestly won't be (for me) anything more than just bragging rights. Crap optics are not not on my agenda. I would rather save and get what I really want.

I want a 1x.

I will probably run my (future) SBR with flip up irons as back up.

Initially I really did not like (at all) QD mounted anything. That said I recently changed my mind entirely on that. I recently bought an Atlas bipod that has an ADM QD attach. That thing is just beautiful. The mount on it is a piece of art if you ask me. Long story short if it has a good QD mount that will be fine. It would be a good option to have.

All that said, once I mount the optic, odds are I won't be moving it around or taking it off or whatever, but a good QD mount would be an option to consider.

I know there are other kinds of mounts. Some are taller. Some are shorter. Honestly I don't quite know the pros and cons of each style and what are their benefits.

In my mind I am wanting an optic that has a wide objective. I am guessing this would give me a both eyes open/better peripheral vision. I don't want to lose the dot if you know what I mean. I want to effortlessly look through it. That is a high priority.

Other random thoughts are below:

I probably will never buy or use a magnifier for the SBR. Maybe after I get some more SBR running under my belt but I doubt it. I am building the gun to be 100yards and in minute of man. Anything else is just gravy. For this gun speed and ease on target is more important than tiny 1 MOA dots.

I would want my optic to be daylight bright if that's possible.

Maybe some sort of cowitnessing would be a plus, but if someone can tell me the benefits of taller (or different style) mounts then that's even better. This is one of the things I want to figure out. I don't know if I want to pop the optic off via QD or set up a cowitness setup.

I am not at all married to any kind, type, or brand of optic. I don't care if it's holographic or red dot. The 1x concept and options are what I am after.

My gun will primarily be a range toy and maybe for home defense, or in a pinch to possibly to give an attitude adjustment to zombies or looters. Overall I am not trying to scrimp on parts but what I buy has to add value to justify it's cost. I will have the rifle for 20 years so no crap.

Things like keeping a few spare batteries on hand isn't that big of an issue but admittedly I kind of like not having to worry about batteries.

Is there anything else I should know? Lay it all out here fellas. Teach me something.

[WHSmithIV]

A decent reflex sight might be what word work best with your criteria. They are 1X with unlimited eye relief. The battery life is generally in the thousands hours range. So, having a spare on inside the grip is fine. It would be years down the road when it would need changing. Very good ones can be bought made by both Trijicon and Aimpoint. The Vortex Razor would be at the lower end of the better quality spectrum at around $400. The Trijicon RMR comes in various models in the 500+ range, so is the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. Eotechs fall in that range also.

To co-witness with them you add a mount to them that brings it up to the height you want to for co-witnessing.

Other than that, you go with red dot sights with a tube housing. Vortex would be the least expensive decent quality option though I have heard good stuff about the sights that Primary Arms offers. I'm planning on one of the Primary Arms red dots for my next rifle. I have the Vortex Strikefire II on my piston rifle.

There are a lot of options available. I probably wouldn't bother with a QD mount though if I was planning on leaving the sight on the rifle anyway and co-witnessing it. Using the iron sights just sights through the glass anyway and there's no magnification.

[alamo5000]

Here is the concept so far on my (concept) for my SBR build.

-CMT Gen 2 Lower (not the ambi one)
-CMT Slick Side upper with no dust cover
-SLR Solo Lite Mlok rail (I think maybe the 10 or 11 inch, whichever one fits better)
-SLR adjustable gas block (pinned)
-12.5" AR Performance 5.56 barrel (1/8 twist) (I keep debating between an 11.5 and a 12.5)
-Griffin Flash Comp Taper Mount
-SNACH charging handle
-CMC 3.5 single stage flat trigger
-stock is TBD
-irons and optic TBD

[WHSmithIV]

You could go with one of the Adcor Defense bolt carriers with the integrated dust wiper since you're going with a slick side upper.

[alamo5000]

You could go with one of the Adcor Defense bolt carriers with the integrated dust wiper since you're going with a slick side upper.

I will cross that bridge when I get to it [:)]

Absolutely nothing is etched in stone but that is the concept that I keep coming back to.

Once I make the decision to build it I will just go on a buying spree. [:D]

[VIPER 237]

Sounds like an Aimpoint Micro (or pro) is calling your name.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Sounds like an Aimpoint Micro (or pro) is calling your name.

I was going to say the same. A Scalarworks mount with a Micro would suit you well. As far as a barrel I reccomend the 12.5" as he makes his barrels longer than a true 12.5" so you can accomidate a 12" rail. This is why i can run a 12" fortis rev rail on my 12.5" SBR. I'd also reccomend a MFT Minimalist stock.. there is a reason I have 5 of them....

[alamo5000]

As far as a barrel I reccomend the 12.5" as he makes his barrels longer than a true 12.5" so you can accomidate a 12" rail. This is why i can run a 12" fortis rev rail on my 12.5" SBR.


The exact reason for that choice. [:D]

I also keep going back and forth between an 11.5 and a 12.5 though. I am not sure if it will make any real difference. Probably not for my purposes...

[Dstrbdmedic167]

The exact reason for that choice. [:D]

I also keep going back and forth between an 11.5 and a 12.5 though. I am not sure if it will make any real difference. Probably not for my purposes...

Difference is minimal... Choose your preferred length and either way you'll be satisfied...

[DutyUse]

I think once the "newness" of my 12.5 upper build subsidies, we'll end up shooting the 11.5 more. Not a lot of difference though practically

[alamo5000]

I think once the "newness" of my 12.5 upper build subsidies, we'll end up shooting the 11.5 more. Not a lot of difference though practically

Why you say that? Before I spend I want to know :)

[DutyUse]

Our 12.5 is running a NSR, while the 11.5 is running a KMR. The 12.5 handles beautifully and I certainly could live with it being my only rifle.. But the 11.5 as we have it configured is just that much more handy. And then when I finally decide on which can to run it'll be that much more compact.

Either way is a win. To really throw a monkey wrench in the mix though, I'm really loving the 10.5 we did a while back as well ;)

[JGifford]

I went from 10.3 to 14.5 pinned guns.

That said, comp m4 or T2 would be the primo choices, and PRO and H1 would be the budget choices. Bobro or scalarworks for the mounts.

[Deadwing]

My 12.5" upper has an Aimpoint T1 micro (mine is a 2 moa dot, 4 moa dot is available) in an ADM lower 1/3 cowitness QD mount (model AD-T1-11), and i run Troy flip up BUIS. Aimpoint micros are the gold standard as far as i'm concerned for a multitude of reasons, and it fits the bill for shooting both eyes open and fast and easy dot/target acquisition. And with the small size of the Aimpoint micros, the optic doesn't "block your view" so to speak. I love ADM mounts for their durability and ease of use, and have a variety of optics mounted in them. Return to zero is pretty consistent and most times no, or very little, adjustment is required. I prefer the lower 1/3 cowitness as it puts the optic slightly higher off the receiver, and makes for a more comfortable and natural (for me) cheek weld. And if you're running a gun with a A2 style FSB (or just happen to have your BUIS flipped up), lower 1/3 puts the BUIS in the bottom of the glass so you have an unobstructed view of the dot. The next time i buy an Aimpoint micro, i think i'm going to try a Bobro mount, as i've read nothing but good things about them.

[BoilerUp]

I like your parts list except I don't understand why you selected the CMT receivers when you also state "I don't see any reason to over pay for something that honestly won't be (for me) anything more than just bragging rights." IMO, billet adds cost w/o increasing functionality. Good ambi features are about the only reason why I'd even consider going billet over forged, but there are some good ambi forged sets out there.

If you don't have a front sight tower, then I'd stick with "standard" co-witness height. If you do have a front sight tower, then consider lower 1/3.

I run a PA micro, which is the $80 imitation of the Aimpoint micros and I really like it. The PA would be an inexpensive way for you to test the waters. I would like to try running a Vortex Strikefire, though, as the tube is larger and I think may be "faster" (and of course I extrapolate that to the Aimpoint PRO). I think that is part of the reason the PROs and Comp M4s are so popular). However, I do plan on going with an EOTech for my go-to carbine as I really like the reticle and huge FOV of the holographic and I'm not that concerned about battery life (it will be run in lower 1/3 cw on a carbine with fixed sights, so if the battery dies I'm still up)

[voodoo_man]

If you are considering keeping this optic for a long time then you want something pretty top end with a really good warranty. Trijicon and Aimpoint are both really good options here.

The RMR is light, "just works" and can take a beating.

T1's and T2's (2moa) are very fine, precision optics. Both are really good at what they do, both are super tough as well.

I would wait until the MCO comes out and people get time on guns with it, especially before you make any decisions.

I ran the piss out of an H1 (4moa) - http://www.vdmsr.com/2012/12/aimpoint-h1-on-larue-751.html - and it worked really well, you could probably get one fairly cheap, used, if you wanted to.

I would consider a pairing with a magnifier (I'd had great success with the 3.5x from SamsonMFG, but there are others that are really good).

Bobro for mounts - they are simply the best, period, and they warranty everything.

How quickly do you need it?

I just finished a review of the Vortex Sparc II (http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/08/vortex-optics-sparc-ii.html) and if you want to give that a try to see what a good RDS with a bunch of features feels like, I'll send it to you, no charge, return when you're done with it.

edit; just to add - Maybe a quality 1-4x is what you really want for a 100y gun. Obviously there are tons of these out there, but they hold their value on the resale market (buy used, sell used) and you could jump around with features - would be total cost of RDS + magnifier + mounts = quality 1-4x with a mount. Again, Trijicon makes a great optic that works well (Accupower) and you don't need a magnifier.

[Mecha_Arms]

If you're getting a compatible optic (T1/2, H1/2, or a PA MD-ADS) you should consider a Scalarworks mount. They're fantastic.

I have one with a lower 1/3 co-witness (my preference), and I'll be using them in future builds with compatible optics.

[JGifford]

If you are considering keeping this optic for a long time then you want something pretty top end with a really good warranty. Trijicon and Aimpoint are both really good options here.

The RMR is light, "just works" and can take a beating.

T1's and T2's (2moa) are very fine, precision optics. Both are really good at what they do, both are super tough as well.

I would wait until the MCO comes out and people get time on guns with it, especially before you make any decisions.

I ran the piss out of an H1 (4moa) - http://www.vdmsr.com/2012/12/aimpoint-h1-on-larue-751.html - and it worked really well, you could probably get one fairly cheap, used, if you wanted to.

I would consider a pairing with a magnifier (I'd had great success with the 3.5x from SamsonMFG, but there are others that are really good).

Bobro for mounts - they are simply the best, period, and they warranty everything.

How quickly do you need it?

I just finished a review of the Vortex Sparc II (http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/08/vortex-optics-sparc-ii.html) and if you want to give that a try to see what a good RDS with a bunch of features feels like, I'll send it to you, no charge, return when you're done with it.

edit; just to add - Maybe a quality 1-4x is what you really want for a 100y gun. Obviously there are tons of these out there, but they hold their value on the resale market (buy used, sell used) and you could jump around with features - would be total cost of RDS + magnifier + mounts = quality 1-4x with a mount. Again, Trijicon makes a great optic that works well (Accupower) and you don't need a magnifier.
Link to this "MCO"?

[GOST]

Link to this "MCO"?

I think he meant MRO.

[alamo5000]

I like your parts list except I don't understand why you selected the CMT receivers when you also state "I don't see any reason to over pay for something that honestly won't be (for me) anything more than just bragging rights." IMO, billet adds cost w/o increasing functionality. )

That is just a personal preference thing for me. I have a CMT set and I really like it so I say if it ain't broke... I have given the thought to using a forged set (maybe Aero?). Its not like I don't enjoy shooting whatever but for something like this I want it to be something I continue to enjoy. Yes they are tools, but at the same time this is a hobby for me. I want something that when I pick it up I go 'yes!'.

Later on up the road I might get into building truck guns or whatever. On my current rifle I really enjoy shooting it and I think part of that satisfaction comes from thinking through what I wanted and using top notch stuff.


How quickly do you need it?

Honestly I have no real time frame. It's not like I am up against some deadline especially considering this is another 'fun gun'. I do have several irons in the fire so to speak so honestly I don't know when I will actually have the finished product in hand. I am planning an extended trip overseas and have no idea what will happen with that... What I might do is before I go, go ahead and get the reciever set including getting it engraved, pay the tax stamp etc and then finish it up after I come back. If it wasn't for my planned trip (and saving for that) I would be in the category of 'extremely close'.

That said I would love to have the chance to try out a quality red dot. An hour of trying one out is better than a week of discussing it [:D] I see the discussion as very productive as to getting me in the right ball park and maybe narrowing it down to a couple of options that I need to really try to see if I like them.

Long story short though I have almost no real experience running red dots so having a good one to learn on would be extremely valuable.


edit; just to add - Maybe a quality 1-4x is what you really want for a 100y gun.

For this one I am sticking with a 1x. I have a variable power optic on my rifle now that I am learning quite a bit from. I enjoy it.

I more or less said '100 yards and in'... which realistically doesn't mean 100 yards for this particular gun. The concept is to have a different style of gun that has a dedicated purpose and thought process behind it.

[alamo5000]

If you are considering keeping this optic for a long time then you want something pretty top end with a really good warranty. Trijicon and Aimpoint are both really good options here.

Yes sir. That is definitely the idea. It's not like 2 or 3 years from now I won't be buying more stuff, but I do want to take my time and get something that fits my purpose (and wants).

I don't know about other people but for me I gain satisfaction from the process of building a gun as well as just owning and using it.

At the end of the day I might have 2 or 3 solid options that I narrow it down to... and then after that I can just pick which one I personally think has the better feel.

If money was no object that is one thing... but even if I had endless cash I would still want to learn.

[GOST]

Alamo I've using an SRS02 for sometime now and love mine. The only complaint I have about mine is that you will get a reflection of the emitter if you point it directly into extremely bright light, but the light it takes to get that reflection is so bright that I can't see to aim looking into it. The reason I like the SRS so much is the FOV is incredible, that's its biggest strength. My other RDS's are just as good till I'm shooting around barricades or transitioning from strong to weak side, this is where the SRS shines. But different RDS's work different for each individual, most of my friends swear by their Aimpoint Micros. I like my Micro but prefer my SRS because I'm quicker with it.

[voodoo_man]

I think he meant MRO.

Yeah thats it

[DutyUse]

CMT makes awesome receivers! If that's what turns you on bro use it

[voodoo_man]

I might have missed it.

What barrel length?

[alamo5000]

I might have missed it.

What barrel length?

I am leaning 12.5 but I am debating 11.5. One or the other.

[voodoo_man]

I am leaning 12.5 but I am debating 11.5. One or the other.

100y and in?

You'd probably do fine with a DD 10.3, or a LMT 10.5. Unless you wanna get into the piston game I wouldn't go any shorter than that with DI.

[tact]

There's also 10.5 WOA barrels out there.....and you'll do better than minute of man at 100....much better.

[alamo5000]

100y and in?

You'd probably do fine with a DD 10.3, or a LMT 10.5. Unless you wanna get into the piston game I wouldn't go any shorter than that with DI.


There's also 10.5 WOA barrels out there.....and you'll do better than minute of man at 100....much better.


I am a serious sucker for accuracy. In a very big way.

Based on my research if given the right optics or whatever I should probably be able to hit at 400 yards with a 12.5 gun.

That said my concept will most likely be to create a load running 65 grain Seirra SBT or some other similar type of hunting load then fine tune it from there. The primary objective though will be a lot more up close... which is part of the reason I am debating going 11.5. Again though, I don't know if it will make that much difference.

10.5 is a consideration though. For sure.

[DutyUse]

If I could redo my sbr/pistol uppers I would certainly have a BCM 11.5 elw-f with KMR somewhere in the mix. My BCM 11.5 BFH barrel is probably one of the stoutest barrels I own.

[Farva]

If I could redo my sbr/pistol uppers I would certainly have a BCM 11.5 elw-f with KMR somewhere in the mix. My BCM 11.5 BFH barrel is probably one of the stoutest barrels I own.

I agree. My 10.5" rainier barrel is nice also. If I remember correctly you gain 40% more dwell time in an 11.5" vs a 10.5" barrel.

[DutyUse]

I almost mentioned that same stat I believe BCM is quoted as saying when they were pushing the 11.5 over 10.3.

From what I know and read, If your going to shoot it suppressed, then 10.3's gonna be right up your alley. If shooting unsuppressed an 11.5 might be a better option.

[Farva]

I almost mentioned that same stat I believe BCM is quoted as saying when they were pushing the 11.5 over 10.3.

From what I know and read, If your going to shoot it suppressed, then 10.3's gonna be right up your alley. If shooting unsuppressed an 11.5 might be a better option.

I'm no expert but I understood this to be the opposite. I was under the impression an 11.5" works better as a suppressed host compared to a 10.5". I could be wrong though, it's happened before.

[GOST]

I am a serious sucker for accuracy. In a very big way.

Based on my research if given the right optics or whatever I should probably be able to hit at 400 yards with a 12.5 gun.

That said my concept will most likely be to create a load running 65 grain Seirra SBT or some other similar type of hunting load then fine tune it from there. The primary objective though will be a lot more up close... which is part of the reason I am debating going 11.5. Again though, I don't know if it will make that much difference.

10.5 is a consideration though. For sure.
This is the barrel I'm using on my SBR that I'm currently working on:

http://triarcsystems.com/product/12-5-track-fluted-barrel/

One of the reviews I've read reported that he averaged with M193 3080 FPS and 0.67" groups at a 100. I guess I'll see if my experience will be the same.

[SINNER]

Best length for a 5.56 SBR barrel.

[alamo5000]

This is the barrel I'm using on my SBR that I'm currently working on:

http://triarcsystems.com/product/12-5-track-fluted-barrel/

One of the reviews I've read reported that he averaged with M193 3080 FPS and 0.67" groups at a 100. I guess I'll see if my experience will be the same.

I am still open for barrels but the one that I mentioned is the only one that I know of that is cut to fit longer rails and honestly getting answers on actual lengths for rail/barrel combos is a pain in the ass. I understand that they measure officially from the bolt face, but that measurement alone is not enough to make a decision when you are going for a certain look. Once I get the thing built I will be running with a suppressor so to me it sort of matters to some degree.

That said the other company can't be the only people around that get the concept.

[GOST]

The handguard I plan on using on my 12.5" is the Hodge 11.5" Wedge Lock.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/s2048x2048/11536501_937958472914255_5725741657645810460_o.jpg ?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

[DutyUse]

I'm no expert but I understood this to be the opposite. I was under the impression an 11.5" works better as a suppressed host compared to a 10.5". I could be wrong though, it's happened before.

Now your making me double guess lol. I'll look it up tomorrow, and I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong.


The handguard I plan on using on my 12.5" is the Hodge 11.5" Wedge Lock.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xft1/t31.0-8/s2048x2048/11536501_937958472914255_5725741657645810460_o.jpg ?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9

Those look amazing

[GOST]

I almost mentioned that same stat I believe BCM is quoted as saying when they were pushing the 11.5 over 10.3.

From what I know and read, If your going to shoot it suppressed, then 10.3's gonna be right up your alley. If shooting unsuppressed an 11.5 might be a better option.


I'm no expert but I understood this to be the opposite. I was under the impression an 11.5" works better as a suppressed host compared to a 10.5". I could be wrong though, it's happened before.

Paul Buffoni the owner of BCM has a post on TOS that explains why he prefers an 11.5" rifle. It has to do with dwell time. Dwell time is the time that your gas operated rifle maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the rifle, dwell time primarily exsists from the time the bullet passes the gas port till it exits the barrel. Paul says that a 11.5" has a 40% longer dwell time than a 10.5" and that's why BCM makes 11.5" barrels instead of 10.5". A lack of dwell time can make a rifle finicky. Shooting suppressed increases the dwell time, think of it as the suppressor adding barrel length. An 11.5" should be more reliable than a 10.5" unsuppressed due to dwell time, but there a lot of 10.5" and 10.3" rifles that run great without suppressors.

[Deadwing]

Man, there are so many variables at work i think it'd be difficult to definitively say a 10.5" will run better suppressed than an 11.5 or vice versa. The additional dwell time of the 11.5 allows chamber pressure to drop a bit more before the round is extracted, allowing for more reliable extraction. But increased dwell time is only good to a certain point. Excessive dwell time can effectively over-gas the gun (this is why mid length gas systems are favored on 16" barrels as opposed to carbine length, not to say that a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel can't be made to function reliably). Adding a can to either a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel will likely result in the gun being overgassed, as the back pressure of the suppressor effectively increases the dwell time (although actual dwell time remains the same in each respective barrel, since the bullet still leaves the bore at the same time it would if shot unsuppressed). Specifics of gas port size, how much back pressure a specific can will add, etc. all play a part. The 11.5 has a higher dwell time than a 10.5, so on paper, with the same can and same relatively sized gas port (i.e. the smallest sized gas port for each barrel that would allow reliable function with nato pressure ammo) in both barrels, the 10.5 would probably be less overgassed than the 11.5. That said, both barrel lengths can be run quite reliably suppressed by running an adjustable gas block, and/or different buffer/spring combos. I don't recall the numbers, but i remember reading that the 10.3" barrels Daniel Defense sells to the general public have a larger gas port than the ones they sell to the military, the logic being that the .mil will always run nato pressure ammo (and frequently run suppressed), where John Q. Public will run everything from Tula .223 to quality 5.56x45 nato. With the smaller gas port of the .mil 10.3, the guy running Tula would find his gun undergassed and have cycling issues. Throw a can on that same gun with the same ammo, and it'd probably cycle fine. Conversely, the commercial spec 10.3" DD barrel will cycle fine with all types of ammo (i've found mine runs best with an H2 buffer using nato pressure ammo), but add a can and you'll probably find you need to run a heavier buffer/spring combo to compensate for the extra pressure in the gas system. Now, on the 11.5" barrel, the gas port could probably be made larger to allow the end user to shoot a variety of different pressure ammo, and the increased dwell time wouldn't make the gun as sensitive to extraction issues associated with an over gassed gun.

I'm no expert, and it's been a while since i stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, so please correct me if my thinking is completely wrong.

[GOST]

Very well put Deadwing, good post.

[Slippers]

Don't overlook gas port sizing. Barrel length becomes irrelevant if the port is too big or too small. It should go without saying that Paul Buffoni prefers an 11.5 over a 10.5 when they're correctly gassed.

You wouldn't use the same port size on a 10.5 and 11.5. Watch out for some of the known overgassed barrels like DD and Larue.

[Hmac]

Don't overlook gas port sizing. Barrel length becomes irrelevant if the port is too big or too small. It should go without saying that Paul Buffoni prefers an 11.5 over a 10.5 when they're correctly gassed.

You wouldn't use the same port size on a 10.5 and 11.5. Watch out for some of the known overgassed barrels like DD and Larue.

Both of my SBRs use BCM BFH 11.5 inch barrels and run perfectly with an H2 buffer for XM193 and an H buffer for .223 PCM. The gas ports are .071. This weekend I shot a 2 day carbine course with Larry Vickers and the 11.5 SBR I used ran perfectly.

I don't care for the Aimpoint Micros, I use a PRO with a G33 magnifier. I flip the magnifier down for 25 yards and farther. Larry is inclined to feel that the magnifier is a great tool but is most appropriate only at 50 yards and beyond. Yeah, I took a little shit for using it inside the 50 yard line but didn't rise to the level of being "that guy" in his mind. He is aware that some day his eyes will be as old as mine.

[Farva]

Paul Buffoni the owner of BCM has a post on TOS that explains why he prefers an 11.5" rifle. It has to do with dwell time. Dwell time is the time that your gas operated rifle maintains pressure to continue the cycling of the rifle, dwell time primarily exsists from the time the bullet passes the gas port till it exits the barrel. Paul says that a 11.5" has a 40% longer dwell time than a 10.5" and that's why BCM makes 11.5" barrels instead of 10.5". A lack of dwell time can make a rifle finicky. Shooting suppressed increases the dwell time, think of it as the suppressor adding barrel length. An 11.5" should be more reliable than a 10.5" unsuppressed due to dwell time, but there a lot of 10.5" and 10.3" rifles that run great without suppressors.

Yes, Paul's statement is what I was referring to.

[Former11B]

I have had issues with EOTechs staying zeroed. Had two that needed rezeroing every 90 days or so.

I'll stick with Aimpoints or maybe the new Trijicon MRO if I ever get the urge to buy one

[Former11B]

Man, there are so many variables at work i think it'd be difficult to definitively say a 10.5" will run better suppressed than an 11.5 or vice versa. The additional dwell time of the 11.5 allows chamber pressure to drop a bit more before the round is extracted, allowing for more reliable extraction. But increased dwell time is only good to a certain point. Excessive dwell time can effectively over-gas the gun (this is why mid length gas systems are favored on 16" barrels as opposed to carbine length, not to say that a carbine gas system on a 16" barrel can't be made to function reliably). Adding a can to either a 10.5" or 11.5" barrel will likely result in the gun being overgassed, as the back pressure of the suppressor effectively increases the dwell time (although actual dwell time remains the same in each respective barrel, since the bullet still leaves the bore at the same time it would if shot unsuppressed). Specifics of gas port size, how much back pressure a specific can will add, etc. all play a part. The 11.5 has a higher dwell time than a 10.5, so on paper, with the same can and same relatively sized gas port (i.e. the smallest sized gas port for each barrel that would allow reliable function with nato pressure ammo) in both barrels, the 10.5 would probably be less overgassed than the 11.5. That said, both barrel lengths can be run quite reliably suppressed by running an adjustable gas block, and/or different buffer/spring combos. I don't recall the numbers, but i remember reading that the 10.3" barrels Daniel Defense sells to the general public have a larger gas port than the ones they sell to the military, the logic being that the .mil will always run nato pressure ammo (and frequently run suppressed), where John Q. Public will run everything from Tula .223 to quality 5.56x45 nato. With the smaller gas port of the .mil 10.3, the guy running Tula would find his gun undergassed and have cycling issues. Throw a can on that same gun with the same ammo, and it'd probably cycle fine. Conversely, the commercial spec 10.3" DD barrel will cycle fine with all types of ammo (i've found mine runs best with an H2 buffer using nato pressure ammo), but add a can and you'll probably find you need to run a heavier buffer/spring combo to compensate for the extra pressure in the gas system. Now, on the 11.5" barrel, the gas port could probably be made larger to allow the end user to shoot a variety of different pressure ammo, and the increased dwell time wouldn't make the gun as sensitive to extraction issues associated with an over gassed gun.

I'm no expert, and it's been a while since i stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, so please correct me if my thinking is completely wrong.

I would rather add an adjustable gas block than add a heavier buffer and spring, even though that is the cost effective way. The heavier buffer will slow the carrier speed but you still have a lot of gas dumping out of the ejection port/in your face and you'll have an increased recoil impulse. Having the ability to tune the gas so it runs properly despite the gas port size in the barrel is the way to go.

You are right, the heavier buffer will help compensate for the suppressor, but it causes some other side effects that aren't ideal.

[DutyUse]

I'm running a syrac adj on my 10.5 ballistic advantage barreled upper & a regular BCM gas block on my 11.5 BCM BFH upper. Both run an H buffer and both have run well thus far unsuppressed.

However neither has more then 200 rounds, as I'm not a huge fan of "pistol" kits and I'm still waiting on stamp return.

[Deadwing]

I would rather add an adjustable gas block than add a heavier buffer and spring, even though that is the cost effective way. The heavier buffer will slow the carrier speed but you still have a lot of gas dumping out of the ejection port/in your face and you'll have an increased recoil impulse. Having the ability to tune the gas so it runs properly despite the gas port size in the barrel is the way to go.

You are right, the heavier buffer will help compensate for the suppressor, but it causes some other side effects that aren't ideal.

I agree. The only SBR I own that gets run suppressed regularly is my Noveske 10.5" with their Switchblock. It'll run suppressed in normal, but with way more gas to the face than on the suppressed setting. This gun also came from the factory with an H2 buffer. Heavier buffers also help with things such as bolt bounce. An H2 buffer weighs 5.3oz if memory serves, and a rifle buffer weighs what, 5.9oz or something?. With that in mind, I like to run as heavy a buffer as I can without short stroking the gun and still getting the bolt to hold open on an empty mag.

[tact]

I think people overthink this crap way too much, and add unnecessary accessories/parts trying to mitigate a problem that doesn't or shouldn't exist in the first place.

[UWone77]

I think people overthink this crap way too much, and add unnecessary accessories/parts trying to mitigate a problem that doesn't or shouldn't exist in the first place.

I'm pretty much right there with you on this one.

I have a lot of SBR uppers. 99% of them run well with an H2 buffer, nothing else. I have switchblocks on several, but those are basically the only adjustable gas blocks I run.

[DutyUse]

I wish I woulda held out for a Noveske switchblock barrel. They endorse syrac but it's kind of a pita

[SINNER]

I much rather tune a rifle with buffers than an adjustable gas block. They all pretty much suck. If you reduce the port size they foul faster. Some so fast it will cause issues in a days shooting.

[alamo5000]

Lively debate going on here. [:D]

At what point do these 'issues' sort of no longer become 'issues'? Obviously it has an effect on shorter barrels more than anything...seemingly the shorter you go the more potential for problems.

Based on the discussion here I could say that it sounds like once you go sub-11 inches that's where it might get complicated.

That said with an 11.5 or a 12.5 what are the odds of having a problem?

[gatordev]

Lively debate going on here. [:D]

At what point do these 'issues' sort of no longer become 'issues'? Obviously it has an effect on shorter barrels more than anything...seemingly the shorter you go the more potential for problems.

Based on the discussion here I could say that it sounds like once you go sub-11 inches that's where it might get complicated.

That said with an 11.5 or a 12.5 what are the odds of having a problem?

It's not an issue if you buy a barrel with the correct port size for that length. BCM has a track record of having the correct port size. If you want to "make" your own barrel, I've found that ADCO's track record is also very good when they cut a barrel (for example, when the cut a barrel to 10.3, they cut it to the TDP port size). Centurion Arms is another known quantity for 12.5" barrels.

Personally I'd skip DD. While their barrels are good at many things, they've been documented to be over-gassed.

[DutyUse]

Speaking of ADCO cutting down barrels... I have a Rainer 16" middy CHF barrel. What's the shortest I can cut it down and still be reliable?

[UWone77]

Speaking of ADCO cutting down barrels... I have a Rainer 16" middy CHF barrel. What's the shortest I can cut it down and still be reliable?

I would say 14.5

I also have cut down RA CHF 14.5 barrels cut down to 10.3

[Former11B]

I much rather tune a rifle with buffers than an adjustable gas block. They all pretty much suck. If you reduce the port size they foul faster. Some so fast it will cause issues in a days shooting.

I wouldn't quite say throwing in a heavier buffer is tuning a rifle. Adjusting it so it gets just the right amount of gas to run properly is.

In my experience, reducing the amount of gas into the upper makes it foul slower; It's actually the opposite, and it's a big selling point of an adjustable gas system for suppressed shooting which is why I use them. My factory gas guns get dirty real quick versus my adjustable gas rifles

[DutyUse]

I would say 14.5

I also have cut down RA CHF 14.5 barrels cut down to 10.3

Thanks!

I'm guessing the 14.5 to 10.3 conversion was a carbine gas?


Throwing a heavier buffer in is not "tuning" a rifle. Adjusting it so it gets just the right amount of gas to run properly is.

Explain how reducing the amount of gas into the upper makes it foul faster? It's actually the opposite, and it's a big selling point of an adjustable gas system for suppressed shooting

I'm not sure but I think he means fouling as in the gas regulator on a multiple gas system adjustable gets extremely dirty and can be a pain to change settings once you've used it awhile and could malfunction. I haven't experienced it personally, but have read syrac style GB's can experience this. Only thing I can think of for "more fouling"?

[Former11B]

I would say 14.5

I also have cut down RA CHF 14.5 barrels cut down to 10.3

I'd say 14.5 also. Some companies make middy 13.7" barrels but they probably have gas ports made for it. Safe side would be 14.5

[Former11B]

Thanks!

I'm guessing the 14.5 to 10.3 conversion was a carbine gas?



I'm not sure but I think he means fouling as in the gas regulator on a multiple gas system adjustable gets extremely dirty and can be a pain to change settings once you've used it awhile and could malfunction. I haven't experienced it personally, but have read syrac style GB's can experience this. Only thing I can think of for "more fouling"?

I edited my post; reread it and it sounded asshole-y which wasn't intentional. That's odd and sounds like a design flaw. I haven't had that issue in mine

[DutyUse]

I agree. Which is why I'll end up selling the syrac equipped upper and using a more robust system like the switchblock Noveske uses

[Deadwing]

Lively debate going on here. [:D]

At what point do these 'issues' sort of no longer become 'issues'? Obviously it has an effect on shorter barrels more than anything...seemingly the shorter you go the more potential for problems.

Based on the discussion here I could say that it sounds like once you go sub-11 inches that's where it might get complicated.

That said with an 11.5 or a 12.5 what are the odds of having a problem?

From my limited experience, it's really a non-issue. I own SBR uppers with the following barrels: a Noveske 7.5", a Daniel Defense 10.3", a Noveske 10.5" (with Switchblock), a BCM 11.5", and a Noveske 12.5". All run flawlessly on lowers using an H2 buffer, and with a variety of ammunition. The overgassed Daniel Defense and BCM will both cycle reliably using an H buffer, but the DD really beats up the brass in that configuration. I haven't run/tested the others with an H buffer.

[Hmac]

I have a lot of SBR uppers. 99% of them run well with an H2 buffer, nothing else. I have switchblocks on several, but those are basically the only adjustable gas blocks I run.

I just shot a weekend carbine course with Larry Vickers using my 11.5 SBR with PMC .223 ammo. I found that my H2 buffer cycled fine, but was occasionally not locking back on an empty mag. I switched it over to an H buffer and no problem. Never been an issue with any 5.56 ammo I've put through that gun. I also note that PMC, pretty as it is, does tend to vary a bit from lot to lot. Bolt not locking back was one symptom, but I've noted that on chronometry as well.

[tact]

I'd blame Hamburgler Vickers....and the Fireclean drooping from those burgers..

[alamo5000]

Honestly before I start building an SBR I should probably find someone local that has one that will let me go shooting with them. That will answer a whole lot of my little lingering questions...I really don't want to go through the hassles of buying all the stuff and building an upper only to 'wish' that I had gone shorter or if I go short that I wish I went a little longer etc.

At the end of the day if I don't buy junk stuff I am confident that I can make the rifle operate the way it's supposed to.

After looking around a little and seeing various opinions my gut tells me to wait and see on that MRO from Trijicon. If after I see some real world reviews on it and it turns out to be awesome I am inclined to possibly go that route.

I would still like to try em before I buy em though. I am thinking in a very short time of some hands on I will know for sure if I want to go Trijicon or Aimpoint. Right now though those are my short listed ones.

I have some thoughts on the mini red dots, MRO or T1 vs say a bigger optic like the SRS... but I don't know if I am right or not. However I have noted that the SRS isn't really on anybody's list.

[DutyUse]

If your around the Kentucky area your more then welcome to shoot any of ours

[alamo5000]

If your around the Kentucky area your more then welcome to shoot any of ours

Sounds very awesome. I am in the Houston area... I am about an hour north of downtown Houston. I certainly don't mind driving a bit to take a look see. I might not even really need to shoot em to be honest... just do some side by side comparisons would kind of help. I kind of want to see how they feel with a suppressor and without... just so that I know.

[DutyUse]

Sorry bro no suppressor yet. Working on one NFA at a time lol

[alamo5000]

Sorry bro no suppressor yet. Working on one NFA at a time lol

Me too!! LOL

I am hoping I will get my first in about a month....

I am sure I can find someone around the area that will let me fondle their SBRs for a little bit... I will probably wind up dropping good coin on my build so I think its pretty wise to at least try to cop a feel before I start forking out the dough.

[DutyUse]

Meh. I had never handled one before I built our 3. I sincerely doubt you'll build one (in any configuration) and hate it lol. You might figure out what you'd want to change for the next build tho.. If you have a feeling you'll like em just go for it. Your never going to build the "perfect gun", you'll just narrow down what you like on each rifle you have experience with

[alamo5000]

I have an SBR related question... I didn't really want to start a new thread to ask it... it's a bit off topic of the thread itself though.

I understand once you get the SBR stamped and all that as long as you stay in your state with it there should be no problems.

I also understand that if I wanted to haul my SBR off to some other state technically I am supposed to file forms with the ATF before going. Those forms alone can take a very long time to get 'across state lines' approval.

Here is my question though, say I form 1 and build my rifle... but a few years from now I get an awesome job offer in a different state.

Can I take the upper off the rifle and take it with me just so long as I don't put them back together until I get that approval letter for transport (or address change)? (this is assuming SBRs are legal where I go to)

Also what if I stick a 16" upper on an SBR'ed lower and take that to another state? Legal or no? Isn't the lower the part that is considered the NFA item or is it the entire rifle?

[Aberration79]

Nope. The registered part is an NFA item no matter what you do. You could strip that lower bear.

[SINNER]

Actually NFA weapons are the ENTIRE weapon. That's why it has caliber and barrel length on the form. Changing uppers on a NFA registered lower is a gray area at best. By the letter of the law it's illegal. BATFE has given an interpretation that a temporary change is OK but a permanent change requires written notification be made to the BATFE. Placing a 16" barrel on a SBR'ed lower does not make it non SBR'ed and you must still fill out the 5320.20 form to travel across state lines.

[Deadwing]

With regards to transporting an NFA item out of state, as others have said, a form 5320.20 must be filled out and approved by the ATF to transport said NFA items across state lines. A separate form is required for each state you plan on transporting the NFA item to. But as i understand it, separate form isn't needed for states you travel through on the way to your destination so long as you don't make any stops in those states (i.e. you're traveling from Texas to Arizona via New Mexico, you'd only need a form for Arizona). Knowing the way the government works, i'd probably fill out a form for NM as well, using the address of a hotel along my rote of travel, just as a CYA. The form 5320.20 can be good for up to one year, and used to transport the NFA item between two locations, or only one way (such as moving to a new state).

As far as configuration changes go, switching from the 11.5" upper that's on your Form 1 to a 12.5" (or any other length for that matter, SBR or not), no notification is required. From the ATF opinion letters i've read, they've basically said that due to the modularity inherent in it's design, any change in configuration to an AR-15 is temporary (notable exceptions being converting it to a machine gun, or turning the lower you bought as a rifle in to a pistol). And if you decide the SBR game isn't your cup of tea, you can request (in writing) that your SBR'd lower be removed from the NFA registry. You can then slap a non-NFA upper on it and then freely transport it from state to state (with notable exceptions).

[DutyUse]

With regards to transporting an NFA item out of state, as others have said, a form 5320.20 must be filled out and approved by the ATF to transport said NFA items across state lines. A separate form is required for each state you plan on transporting the NFA item to. But as i understand it, separate form isn't needed for states you travel through on the way to your destination so long as you don't make any stops in those states (i.e. you're traveling from Texas to Arizona via New Mexico, you'd only need a form for Arizona). Knowing the way the government works, i'd probably fill out a form for NM as well, using the address of a hotel along my rote of travel, just as a CYA. The form 5320.20 can be good for up to one year, and used to transport the NFA item between two locations, or only one way (such as moving to a new state).

As far as configuration changes go, switching from the 11.5" upper that's on your Form 1 to a 12.5" (or any other length for that matter, SBR or not), no notification is required. From the ATF opinion letters i've read, they've basically said that due to the modularity inherent in it's design, any change in configuration to an AR-15 is temporary (notable exceptions being converting it to a machine gun, or turning the lower you bought as a rifle in to a pistol). And if you decide the SBR game isn't your cup of tea, you can request (in writing) that your SBR'd lower be removed from the NFA registry. You can then slap a non-NFA upper on it and then freely transport it from state to state (with notable exceptions).

I didn't know that bit about removal. Good info like always

[tact]

The paperwork does not take really very long at all........it's not like waiting on a form 1 or form 4.

Additionally as pointed out earlier changing the configuration or length is not a big deal which is why they tell you to just put the shortest length you think you might use on the form 1 so that it basically covers everything.

[DutyUse]

Moving and simply transporting are actually two different things but such paperwork does not take really very long at all........it's not like waiting on a form 1 or form 4.

Additionally as pointed out earlier changing the configuration or length is not a big deal which is why they tell you to just put the shortest length you think you might use on the form 1 so that it basically covers everything.

Okay I put 10.3 on my paperwork. If I get in the 300BO game can I not put a 8" barrel on legally?

[tact]

As long as you can put the original configuration you put on your paperwork back together. So don't get rid of whatever your original OAL was. So when I said put the shortest length it isn't really necessary......just something I do ...sorry.

[alamo5000]

Thanks for the responses. That clarified that one aspect up for me. Honestly I am (or have been) extremely mobile and with the way the world is now economy wise there is no telling where I might have to go. Ideally I won't be moving off anywhere. Just the thought of filling out state income tax forms makes me shudder. Texas has no state income tax. We just have to file federal and that's it. I've lived in other states and that stuff sucks. That said I along with a few million other people have had a very hard time getting meaningful work. That said in a worst case scenario that I do end up somewhere I do have a secure place where I can put all my guns. That said it is food for thought. I will still probably go ahead and do it because I do have a place to put the stuff if I need to. My dad is on the trust with me so if I leave it at his house it's no problem.

[Deadwing]

Okay I put 10.3 on my paperwork. If I get in the 300BO game can I not put a 8" barrel on legally?

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. :P

[DutyUse]

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. :P

Haha thanks bro

[Hmac]

Actually NFA weapons are the ENTIRE weapon. That's why it has caliber and barrel length on the form. Changing uppers on a NFA registered lower is a gray area at best. By the letter of the law it's illegal. BATFE has given an interpretation that a temporary change is OK but a permanent change requires written notification be made to the BATFE. Placing a 16" barrel on a SBR'ed lower does not make it non SBR'ed and you must still fill out the 5320.20 form to travel across state lines.

ATF has an FAQ on NFA weapons. Once you have a stamp for the lower indicating that you've paid the tax, you can put any length barrel in any calilber on that lower as long as you "retain control of the parts necessary to return it to its registered configuration". If you want to take the weapon out of state, you can file a Form 5320.20. It used to take about 2 weeks. Now I'm told it can run a month to 6 weeks. If you put a 16+ upper on that SBR receiver, it immediately becomes a "non-SBR" rifle. As a standard GCA, Title I weapon, it is completely removed from the purview of the NFA. It can be taken out of state without paperwork. Other people not on your trust can borrow and shoot the weapon as they desire. You can even sell it as a GCA firearm (as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts).

[BoilerUp]

You'd be 100% legal removing the 10.3" upper and installing an 8" upper on an SBR'd lower, regardless of what length is on the form 1 or form 4. Changing barrel length is a temporary change in the eyes of the ATF. Only way i could ever see it causing problems is if you registered it as a 10.3 and then sold the gun as an SBR with the 8" barrel, and 8" is the length that got listed on the form 4. When the ATF compared the length listed on the form 4 of your buyer and it didn't match the length of the form 1 or form 4 you used to acquire the weapon, they'd send a correction letter stating their records show the barrel length as being 10.3" and kick the form back to be corrected before approving the transfer. Bottom line is, once you have the approved form 1 or 4 and stamp in hand, no one cares one lick what length barrel you have on your registered lower.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. :P

This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

[SINNER]

Not all SBR's are that simple. The law covers much more than AR pattern weapons.

[Hmac]

This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

That's the NFA, not Washington state. Putting a less-than-16-inch barrel on any Title 1 firearm is "manufacturing" (or "making") according to the National Firearms Act. That's true in all states.

[Deadwing]

If you put a 16+ upper on that SBR receiver, it immediately becomes a "non-SBR" rifle. As a standard GCA, Title I weapon, it is completely removed from the purview of the NFA. It can be taken out of state without paperwork. Other people not on your trust can borrow and shoot the weapon as they desire. You can even sell it as a GCA firearm (as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts).

That's the way i read the law as well. However, i think it's important to note that it only temporarily removes the weapon from the purview of the NFA when a 16" or greater upper is attached to your SBR'd lower. You can still throw your SBR upper on it and be 100% good to go. But, writing the ATF and asking that the weapon be removed from the registry will revert said weapon back to non-NFA status, your stamp and Form 1 or 4 will no longer be valid, and you will have committed a felony by attaching an upper with a barrel length less than 16". You or any future owner could then once again file a Form 1 and "make" an SBR with it upon approval, and once again fall under the NFA.


This really highlights the absurdity of the situation in Washington (state): swapping a barrel/upper on an SBR is "temporary", yet swapping a 16" or greater barrel for a short barrel in order to SBR the rifle via Form 1 is considering "manufacturing" and therefore not allowed. Asshats.

I couldn't agree more. The spirit of the WA SBR law was to bring state law into alignment with federal law. Federal law allows individuals or trusts, etc to make an SBR upon approval of a Form 1. Making something is a perfectly legitimate means of acquiring something, and the state law allows individuals to acquire SBRs. But the wording in the RCW state it is unlawful for any person to "assemble or repair any machine gun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle". So i guess by that wording, if something breaks on my legally acquired SBR (via a Form 4, since Form 1s are a no-no at the moment), i would technically be breaking the law by fixing it! Absurd doesn't even scratch the surface of the situation here in WA.

[Hmac]

That's the way i read the law as well. However, i think it's important to note that it only temporarily removes the weapon from the purview of the NFA when a 16" or greater upper is attached to your SBR'd lower. You can still throw your SBR upper on it and be 100% good to go. But, writing the ATF and asking that the weapon be removed from the registry will revert said weapon back to non-NFA status, your stamp and Form 1 or 4 will no longer be valid, and you will have committed a felony by attaching an upper with a barrel length less than 16". You or any future owner could then once again file a Form 1 and "make" an SBR with it upon approval, and once again fall under the NFA.

According to the ATF's most recent FAQ on SBR/SBS 's that's how they read the law as well.

The NFA firearm is removed from the NFA purview and is not an SBR as long as it has a 16+ upper on it as long as you don't "retain control" of the SBR parts. They do suggest that you notify them if it's permanently not going to be an SBR, but it's not required. As to taking the rifle out of town if it has the 16+ upper, that's fine without a 5320.20 as long as you leave the short-barrel upper at home.

[BoilerUp]

That's the NFA, not Washington state. Putting a less-than-16-inch barrel on any Title 1 firearm is "manufacturing" (or "making") according to the National Firearms Act. That's true in all states.

Kind of. The mismatch is that the Federal law uses "make", which is very broad, but state law says "manufacture". Swapping an upper or even a barrel on an AR is not manufacturing by any reasonable definition. That's like saying you manufactured your car because you changed the tire.

[JGifford]

Alamo I've using an SRS02 for sometime now and love mine. The only complaint I have about mine is that you will get a reflection of the emitter if you point it directly into extremely bright light, but the light it takes to get that reflection is so bright that I can't see to aim looking into it. The reason I like the SRS so much is the FOV is incredible, that's its biggest strength. My other RDS's are just as good till I'm shooting around barricades or transitioning from strong to weak side, this is where the SRS shines. But different RDS's work different for each individual, most of my friends swear by their Aimpoint Micros. I like my Micro but prefer my SRS because I'm quicker with it.

I played with one at SWFA a month ago and found it to be terrible. Even in their showroom indoor lighting the reflection was absurd. I won't even say "it's your eyes vs. mine". It was so hideous that it's not a matter of opinion. Your SRS must be different physically from the one I played with at SWFA is all I can come up with.

[Farva]

only to 'wish' that I had gone shorter or if I go short that I wish I went a little longer etc.

Every mans struggle...

If you find yourself in Oklahoma your more than welcome to come get some trigger time on my SBR, my cousin has several of his own and several suppressors etc.

[Hmac]

Kind of. The mismatch is that the Federal law uses "make", which is very broad, but state law says "manufacture". Swapping an upper or even a barrel on an AR is not manufacturing by any reasonable definition. That's like saying you manufactured your car because you changed the tire.


If you swap a 16+ upper for an SBR upper, you are "making" or "manufacturing" an SBR. Not a problem if the receiver has a transfer stamp assigned to it. I don't know how Washington state views it, but according to the Feds you can swap barrel lengths and calibers with impunity.

[JGifford]

If you swap a 16+ upper for an SBR upper, you are "making" or "manufacturing" an SBR. Not a problem if the receiver has a transfer stamp assigned to it. I don't know how Washington state views it, but according to the Feds you can swap barrel lengths and calibers with impunity.

Correct, however, I do recall on Silencertalk or some such a few years back, a man took a pinned 14.5, or a 16.1, I forget which, placed it on his SBR, and went through a state where SBR's were illegal. He did not have with him the SBR length upper. He was stopped for something unrelated (speeding?), and the officer ran the gun and discovered it was registered as an NFA item. Charges were levied. I do not know the outcome/recall it.

[tact]

Seems rather silly. Guy can hand over 200$ to gov for a stamp but only has money for one lower......I don't know just use another lower......it takes all the thinking out of it.

[Hmac]

Correct, however, I do recall on Silencertalk or some such a few years back, a man took a pinned 14.5, or a 16.1, I forget which, placed it on his SBR, and went through a state where SBR's were illegal. He did not have with him the SBR length upper. He was stopped for something unrelated (speeding?), and the officer ran the gun and discovered it was registered as an NFA item. Charges were levied. I do not know the outcome/recall it.

Hmmm... I'm suspicious of the anecdote. How would the officer know the guy had a rifle in the car? And I strongly doubt that an LEO can query the NFRTR, a Federal database. I'm sure it varies from state to state but in this state, there's no state requirement for an SBR to be registered with the NFA nor is state registration required. . The only laws that apply are federal laws and I don't know any police officers in this state that are inclined to try to enforce Federal law. Anyway, transporting a non-SBR out of state is clearly legal. Here's the AFT's opinion https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/files/2015/02/Transport-a-Title-II-as-a-Title-1-across-state-lines.pdf .

The level of ignorance that exists about firearms by your general run of Law Enforcement Officers is amplified considerably when it comes to NFA firearms.

[Deadwing]

Seems rather silly. Guy can hand over 200$ to gov for a stamp but only has money for one lower......I don't know just use another lower......it takes all the thinking out of it.

That would be my solution lol. That we even have to think about or concern ourselves with such things is absurd, in my opinion. You know, that whole "shall not be infringed" part and all. But that's a discussion for another thread...