Manticore Arms, Inc. Transformer Rail

[GOST]

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12039192_1000310170020459_7193466733037021223_n.jp g?oh=4096ca6c5240552a450a03ac8a69cc3e&oe=5697C542

From Manticore Arm's Facebook page:

The new Transformer handguard from Manticore Arms, Inc.. Keymod or M-LOK on the same handguard. Mix and match or go with one. Freedom to choose is now yours. Really impressed with these. Super light, comfortable and well designed. Thanks to Sven and co. for solving a huge problem for AR-15 enthusiasts! Under $200, 7.4 oz. 13". 8 QD sling points. Oh, don't want the inserts? No problem, rail covers available in 2 patterns, right out of the gates.

http://www.manticorearms.com/

[Slippers]

All the kiddies that complained about having to use a picatinny rail section on a keymod or m-lok rail in order to mount a picatinny based accessory will be back to pick on this. Adding an adapter plate for your direct mount accessories, etc.

Also, the forward most keymod/m-lok slots are pretty far back from the front of the rail due to the QD socket and screw for the adapter plate.

And I can't help but see those nice big flat 45 degree surfaces and wonder why there aren't keymod/m-lok adapter plates there, too!

[velocity2006]

And I can't help but see those nice big flat 45 degree surfaces and wonder why there aren't keymod/m-lok adapter plates there, too!

Agreed, I am surprised that there really are not more rail options with the 45 degree surfaces on the market. I like where this rail is going though.

[Axlnut]

I helped develop this rail with Manticore, specifically the panel system.

Will, some of the mount on a mount concerns have already popped up on another forum, and I feel like it misses the point of the forend. Like anything it's not the answer for everyone, but we think of it more of a chassis. We're not trying to have a "system" of our own, but more a blank slate to put others' interfaces, etc.

A solution for the angled sections was discussed and modeled, but the end profile we desired based on early feedback didn't allow it - but maybe that will change in the future, that's up to Manticore Arms.

As for the sling qds - very valid point, but... there may be an interesting option in the works to solve that.
Answering every detailed question on the forend is for Manticore but I'll try to shed light on design philosophy where I can.

[toolboxluis00200]

Do they come in red Autobot or deseptecon purple. ?? [BD]

[Farva]

Do they come in red Autobot or deseptecon purple. ?? [BD]

+1000000!!

[Axlnut]

Do they come in red Autobot or deseptecon purple. ?? [BD]

Maybe with the right Cerakote colors sorted out... ;-)

[toolboxluis00200]

Maybe with the right Cerakote colors sorted out... ;-)

That is funny

[Dstrbdmedic167]

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[Aragorn]

So what's the deal with the top of the rail? Looking at other pics online it looks like the top has no provisions for an adapter, isn't defaulted towards either keymod or m-lok, and pretty much has no way of mounting.... anything. Not even their own polymer section to protect your hand from heat.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

It has vent cuts similar to the sides above the insert sections. I think it's like most LW rails where most of the picatinny has been removed for weight savings. Probably not any different than any other LW rail out there but I have yet to install it. Plan to this week. So maybe I can see how it does with heat and my hands.

[Axlnut]

So what's the deal with the top of the rail? Looking at other pics online it looks like the top has no provisions for an adapter, isn't defaulted towards either keymod or m-lok, and pretty much has no way of mounting.... anything. Not even their own polymer section to protect your hand from heat.

Just very generous vents that match the ones on the angles. The top is cut about as low as it can be to lower the profile and shave weight. The cut is intended to be low enough that a IR/Vis laser/illum mounted on the rear section of pic rail should not be blocked by the users thumb if "C-clamped."

I have shot with it fairly extensively and haven't been bothered by heat any more than any other "scalloped" rail - but that's of course an individual observation.

One product I have kicked around is a mount for Surefire SR switches to mount low on top, but that's about it. I don't know if Manticore has anything else planned, but I don't think at this point.

[UWone77]

Axlnut, if you have any new products or what not, feel free to post.

[Aragorn]

ANY provision would be better than none at all. I feel like people who say they hang on to the rail bare handed while shooting just DON'T put THAT much ammo down range if they ALSO say it doesn't get too hot to handle.

I've NEVER shot with ANY metal forend on an AR that didn't get too hot to handle barehanded (and lacking covers) when any appreciable amount of ammo was shot.

DD
BCM
Noveske
Troy
Centurion

Anything more than a few mags at a moderate to rapid cadence of fire, or especially an entire afternoon shooting outdoors in the summer...

Just saying, ANY provision is better than none. The narrow width and direct mount panels, along with the trimmed height make this super attractive. Or.... it WOULD be, if Manticore's own panels would fit it.

I guess I'd have to ask this. How many people do you think will mount lasers or whatever on the back pic section, vs people who shoot bare handed? Or with a scope? Nothing is going on that back pic section if a scope is mounted.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

ANY provision would be better than none at all. I feel like people who say they hang on to the rail bare handed while shooting just DON'T put THAT much ammo down range if they ALSO say it doesn't get too hot to handle.

I've NEVER shot with ANY metal forend on an AR that didn't get too hot to handle barehanded (and lacking covers) when any appreciable amount of ammo was shot.

DD
BCM
Noveske
Troy
Centurion

Anything more than a few mags at a moderate to rapid cadence of fire, or especially an entire afternoon shooting outdoors in the summer...

Just saying, ANY provision is better than none. The narrow width and direct mount panels, along with the trimmed height make this super attractive. Or.... it WOULD be, if Manticore's own panels would fit it.

I guess I'd have to ask this. How many people do you think will mount lasers or whatever on the back pic section, vs people who shoot bare handed? Or with a scope? Nothing is going on that back pic section if a scope is mounted.

I've done several mag dumps with the bumpfire on a couple of my uppers. My 12.5" with the fortis rev especially. mag dump after mag dump with Slippers and my rail still wasn't hot enough to make it an issue that concerned me. I'm sure our shooting styles vary tremendously but if your shooting enough to get things as hot as you are wouldn't polymer begin to have issues even with the heat guards?

Also I'm assuming not many people that have DBAL's will plan to use this rail for several reasons some you've mentioned. This seems to be one of those rails that just doesn't fit your need.

Again I haven't used this rail personally but I can't see it being as big as an issue as you are assuming it will be

[Aragorn]

I've done several mag dumps with the bumpfire on a couple of my uppers. My 12.5" with the fortis rev especially. mag dump after mag dump with Slippers and my rail still wasn't hot enough to make it an issue that concerned me. I'm sure our shooting styles vary tremendously but if your shooting enough to get things as hot as you are wouldn't polymer begin to have issues even with the heat guards?

Also I'm assuming not many people that have DBAL's will plan to use this rail for several reasons some you've mentioned. This seems to be one of those rails that just doesn't fit your need.

Again I haven't used this rail personally but I can't see it being as big as an issue as you are assuming it will be

I'm not really in the market for a rail right now, just pointing out things as I see them.

Back to the heat thing, I'm sure we've all been burned by some stupid random thing that has, at a minimum, sat in the sun too long, be it a black vehicle in summer or the back patio doorknob roasting in the August sun.

Maybe "burn" is too strong a word, but for the sake of illustration, neither of those are things I'm gonna want to just sit there and hold. I've found black guns to be worse because they're not just absorbing heat, they're generating it. Granted I do 98%+ of my shooting in Oklahoma and Texas where it gets plenty hot in summer...

As far as issues with polymer, none. None of the magpul covers, not Troy squid grip (which is actually rubber), not NSR panels, or LaRue index clips. Never had an issue with heat.

I HAVE gotten wood to smoke on an AK before, but that's not really comparable as it's actually touching the barrel..

[Dstrbdmedic167]

NC has stupid hot summers as well.. I agree with you that black rifles in the summer sun get hot when shooting them lol.. thats why mine are grey (J/K)..

Not defending this rail, just general Lightweight rail in general.. I just don't see it having the issues you fear.. we can agree to disagree..

Side Note: How's your umbrella build running?

[Axlnut]

Axlnut, if you have any new products or what not, feel free to post.

Thanks, will do!

[Axlnut]

Aragorn,

Just a thought - most of those rails you mention have full top rail sections, therefore no venting on top and more mass in that area. They will get hot faster than a vented top section, and hold that heat longer.

If I plan to shoot all day, or do lots of mag dumps, I wear gloves. That's just me, your use may vary, and of it's a concern for you, this, or any other lightweight scalloped rail may not be for you.

I'd be willing to block those vents and do a mildly scientific back to back temp test. My initial thought is blocking the top will eventually make it more hot, not less so. Either way - great thing about ARs - plenty of options out there to suit everyone's needs and tastes.

As for the DBAL - yeah, there probably won't be many who do use one with the Transformer, but I wanted the option to be there, or offset rds, or whatever.

There's a good bit of criticism of various aspects of the forend, and most are based around a valid point of one sort or another. I will say this, those that have handled it on a rifle tend to give much more positive feedback than those that haven't. A lot of thought went into some small details that aren't readily appreciated in photos.

Appreciate the feedback in both directions though - there is more to come in the Transformer line, and Manticore and I are collating what we're hearing to bring as much as we can to the table to address concerns in future versions.

[Aragorn]

NC has stupid hot summers as well.. I agree with you that black rifles in the summer sun get hot when shooting them lol.. thats why mine are grey (J/K)..

Not defending this rail, just general Lightweight rail in general.. I just don't see it having the issues you fear.. we can agree to disagree..

Side Note: How's your umbrella build running?

Yeah, I need something other than black for sure. Break up the monotony lol. And to just come up and shoot full auto with you and Slippers for uh, heat transfer research [BD]

The umbrella build is holding up good. Nothing really bad to report. A MicroMOA barrel certainly doesn't need an adjustable gas block for sure as mine is running only one click from full open with the lightweight bcg. I haven't got to shoot it as much as I'd like for sure. Also haven't cleaned it since the first round was fired and haven't had any failures of any sort thus far, but for some reason I'm still hesitant to trust it. I've gotten to where I can detect a super minascule amount of creep in the TH24 trigger, but it's still the best single action AR trigger I've ever felt. Geisselies feel like they have a bit more "push" during reset. Wish I had a Wilson to compair it to. Still though, love that trigger. And the scope. Chances are that the Umbrella lower and the scope will be moved to a PWS upper I plan to get once my tax refund rolls in, and the existing upper will probably be set up with iron sights with the intention of just running it as an iron sight gun.

...super thread hijack. Sorry about that. Lol.

[Aragorn]

Aragorn,

Just a thought - most of those rails you mention have full top rail sections, therefore no venting on top and more mass in that area. They will get hot faster than a vented top section, and hold that heat longer.

If I plan to shoot all day, or do lots of mag dumps, I wear gloves. That's just me, your use may vary, and of it's a concern for you, this, or any other lightweight scalloped rail may not be for you.

I'd be willing to block those vents and do a mildly scientific back to back temp test. My initial thought is blocking the top will eventually make it more hot, not less so. Either way - great thing about ARs - plenty of options out there to suit everyone's needs and tastes.

As for the DBAL - yeah, there probably won't be many who do use one with the Transformer, but I wanted the option to be there, or offset rds, or whatever.

There's a good bit of criticism of various aspects of the forend, and most are based around a valid point of one sort or another. I will say this, those that have handled it on a rifle tend to give much more positive feedback than those that haven't. A lot of thought went into some small details that aren't readily appreciated in photos.

Appreciate the feedback in both directions though - there is more to come in the Transformer line, and Manticore and I are collating what we're hearing to bring as much as we can to the table to address concerns in future versions.

Wasn't trying to hate. Eventually I'd love to try something with the top rail shaved off. Just last month I was lamenting over the lack of substantial options I found with it, somehow had overlooked the transformer. I prefer the thumb wrapped over the top style grip when shooting fast and up close, and I seem to have less up and right muzzle travel the tighter the diameter I can get on that grip.

I figured ideally I could find something with a 1.5" OD, Keymod, with a shaved top rail. Keymod because NSR panels are only about 1/8" thick, which is half what Magpuls M-lok covers are. Put that on 3-4 sides and that adds up. That's why I got excited when I saw the transformer, until I realized I couldn't put a cover up top. Still though, your point about there being less metal there, or rather air in place of a lot of the metal, does make sense that it'd be cooler. Or would the existing metal be hotter due to less material to absorb heat? Hell idk.

[gatordev]

This is mostly out of curiosity... If you're putting a PEQ on the top, rear of the rail, and using a C-clamp hold on the front of the rail, doesn't using an illuminator cause a ton of shadow from the rail and your arm?

[Axlnut]

This is mostly out of curiosity... If you're putting a PEQ on the top, rear of the rail, and using a C-clamp hold on the front of the rail, doesn't using an illuminator cause a ton of shadow from the rail and your arm?

Yes, there will be some shadow if you are right handed and exaggerate the C-clamp grip, and there will be some splash back as well. At the rear of the rail you're likely to get some splash back regardless if hand position from the illuminator.

I'm left handed, so it's not a concern, and I wrap my thumb up but don't exaggerate the raised elbow, so for me giving more clearance to not get splash back / interference from the aiming lasers is more important. Ideally a PEQ/DBAL works better up front.

I looked at it as a tradeoff - wanted a scalloped top rail, but wanted to leave open the option of using a PEQ and a BUIS, or an offset RDS and BUIS, etc. So going as low as possible and having enough Pic rail slots front and rear to allow a PEQ, or Unity Fusion hub, etc seemed the best way to accomplish it.

[UWone77]

This seems like a good option for shooters who are undecided between the 2 platforms, and the 90% of them that will have nothing more than probably a VFG, fingerstop, or light at the end of the handguard.

[Stickman]

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