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alamo5000
15 November 2015, 16:01
I would like to hear the various opinions of forum members about ammo for self defense carry in various calibers.

Without so much getting into what kind of gun it is or what kind of specific weapon related discussion, but I am talking about rounds and generally what your impressions are.

For me, I have a Sig P238 .380 that I have always wanted to carry mainly because it seems to be small and simple. That said I have honestly never carried it for a variety of reasons.

My main thoughts on .380 are that people bash it for being under power. That said for being in the deep south where winter means it gets down to the 50's a .380 might be ok for convenience, but it's not optimal.

I tried several types of ammo and I found that Black Hills 90 grain JHP works pretty well. That's not based around some gel test but rather that seems like I can load mags of the stuff and never have a problem. That being said, with buffalo bore, corbon, and a few others they don't cycle as well.

That said with regular ball ammo I have never had a single problem with my .380 but when you get into other stuff my gun seems more picky on ammo. With +P ammo it seems like it was blasting too hard to the point where it was changing the cycling rate and hence it wasn't extracting the spent shells like it should sometimes.

Some of those cycling issues are pretty much why I haven't carried the .380. That said with the black hills standard non +P it has been great and opens that gun up to be able to be carried. It's either that or carry ball ammo. All in all though I think a .380 can do the trick if needed.

http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/380-90-JHP-12-1-10.jpg

With 9mm I carry 124 gr. Personally I think with many kinds of ammo it's a voodoo science. Most of it is marketing. Personally I see no reason to run a +P round. Up to a point I am not so sure why people obsess over penetration tests.

The main reason I like 9mm is I think it's more than sufficient. For me the carry package is relatively small and light. The recoil is less. You can have more rounds (if needed) with less weight.

http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/9mm-124-JHP-NA-29Jul10-2.jpg

With .40 I tend to go with 180 grain. In recent years I have shied away from .40 mainly because the carry package is slightly larger and there seems to be more recoil. That said I would have 100% confidence in it. If you connect with the target that's pretty much all she wrote.

http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/40-SW-180-JHP-NA-dye-7Jul10.jpg

I have carried a .45 before on numerous occasions but that said the only real reason why I don't is because the overall package of carrying is much bigger and slightly less 'easy' to conceal with what I have. I do carry my .45 in the car though.

It has nothing to do with the round itself. I actually like it a whole lot. I tend to prefer 230 grain JHP.

http://www.black-hills.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/45-ACP-230-Gr-JHP-17Jun10-dye.jpg

All that said my impressions on ammo is just what I said earlier. There is entirely too many people making tens of thousands of youtube videos (although they are fun to watch). For me +P doesn't really bring anything extra to a real world scenario. I think the best selection method is to pick stuff that has a good projectile for your needs and that will cycle well in your weapon. At the end of the day what really will save your ass in some kind of bad situation will be your ability to react and keep your head. My opinion is if you start poking holes in a bad guy his attitude is going to change.

All that said I have long been a fan of Black Hills for all my carry needs. Whatever gun I run them in they just seem to be smooth and overall very good ammo.

DutyUse
15 November 2015, 17:10
.380 in our g42 I load hardball or Lehigh extreme penetrator.

9mm in our g43 I use federal hst 147gr +P.

Eric
15 November 2015, 21:32
I've had the opportunity to participate in a few ballistic workshops and come to the opinion that current premium handgun duty rounds are very similar in terminal performance. FWIW my agency elected to go with the CCI Gold Dot across the board: 147 gr 9mm, 180 gr .40, 230 gr .45. Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber and Winchester Ranger are among some good choices as well. Buy a bunch of your preferred ammo and confirm proper function in the specific pistol.

Former11B
15 November 2015, 23:03
I use Speer Gold Dot ammo in all the carry guns: .380 (wife's gun)...I believe it's 95gr JHP. In 9mm, 124gr +P (I would have bought it with or without the +P), 185gr JHP in .357 Mag, and 210gr JHP in .45 ACP. Although my 1911 5" is hell on them in regards to setting back a bullet in the case....I don't like carrying FMJs as self defense ammo so the 1911 doesn't get carried much because I don't trust it to feed the hollow points reliably. I do carry a Springfield XD .45 compact occasionally but it's usually a G19 with 124gr Gold Dots

DeviantLogic
16 November 2015, 04:14
My P238 gets the most carry time. It gets run of the mill Winchester 95gr. Although I carry one of my M&P's when I can, the P238 is easiest to conceal. It easily fits in my back pocket with jeans/slacks or front pocket with cargo shorts. I use the Winchester 95gr because that's what it gets at the range and the P238 hasn't had any problems with it. Having good terminal performance is great, reliability and getting shots on target are my first priorities.

BoilerUp
16 November 2015, 07:11
Winchester Ranger-T +P 124 gr is my top choice for 9mm with Gold Dot as a close second. The Ranger-T ammo can at times be hard to find.

MoxyDave
16 November 2015, 12:21
Nice write-up. I like .380 for the reasons you mentioned. I only use bonded bullets, which I think is especially important for a weaker round like the .380.

Also just FYI, there is no "+P" SAMMI specification as far as I know in .380 ACP. With no standard, manufacturers have no means to test a "+P" .380 round, so your mileage may vary ... I prefer to stick with standards.

alamo5000
16 November 2015, 16:54
Also just FYI, there is no "+P" SAMMI specification as far as I know in .380 ACP. With no standard, manufacturers have no means to test a "+P" .380 round

http://cdn3.volusion.com/sfvhn.cpdkd/v/vspfiles/photos/27C-2.jpg?1430135640

I've tried a couple of variations of that stuff. It works but I experienced problems like I mentioned above with it. I will go try again and see if maybe it was a fluke.

But yes, I am with you... I don't get the need to go +P for the most part.

voodoo_man
17 November 2015, 06:17
While I am issued 9mm HST at work, I have started carrying 147gr flatnose (federal or winchester, whichever I can find).

HST and other hollowpoint ammo does not do well with barricades (cars, house doors) - 147gr does really well, the wound channel is negligible.

MoxyDave
17 November 2015, 16:40
Manufacturers can claim whatever they want. I'm pretty sure there is no +P SAAMI spec.

List of SAAMI Specs (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/C%20and%20C%20Dwgs%20-%20TOC%20-%20Pistol.pdf)

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/why-i-wont-use-or-test-380-acp-p-or-any-p-ammo/

alamo5000
21 November 2015, 10:29
I have an opinion question to ask you guys... I had a small collection of hollow points that I have collected over time. I just had a box here or there that I picked up for dirt cheap over time.

My host guns were a Sig 238 and a Sig 938

My unofficial tests results are as follows:

With the .380 Buffalo Bore Hard Cast RN and the Buffalo Bore Hollow Points were both labeled as +P. They were extremely smoky and both didn't feed as well and both did not extract spent cases. I had several issues with both. Corbon also sucks for my gun. They did not reliably feed at all. Once again, the Black Hills worked flawlessly in my .380 so if I end up carrying that... the black hills is the way to go.

On my 9mm I tried Hornaday 124 gr and 147 gr, Federal 124, and of course some Black Hills 124 that I just bought to test out. The 124 Hornadays were ok. The 147s were not feeding. The Federals were actually flawless. The Black Hills functioned very good as well although they were very snappy. More than anything I was trying out reliability and overall handling.

Here is my choice for 9mm. I really like Black Hills for everything. That said they were very snappy. The federals had noticeably less recoil and they fed without even a hint of a hiccup. Personally for a carry gun I lean way more towards control (less recoil) and reliable feeding. I don't want to be that guy racking on his gun in the middle of an emergency. Reliability trumps any kind of new fangled expansion in a bucket of water test they might have.

That said I understand that Federal has a JHP and a HST. Does anyone have any opinion about those two? The ones I tested were the standard pressure 124 gr hydroshock.

At this point even though I am a black hills fan boy I am leaning towards federal for my 9mm merely because after shooting a box of it I like the way it cycles and after today I am pretty confident in it's functional reliability. The black hils ain't no slouch but I think the federals might have a tad bit of overall advantage for my personal preference. Now I just need to see if the HST has any kind of advantage over the JHP.

alamo5000
21 November 2015, 10:38
A little background...

When a holiday or birthday or whatever rolls around... when people ask me what I want... I always answer 'ammo' :) Even in my office white elephant exchange I get all kinds of ammo every time :)

The stuff has just been piling up so I wanted to see what they could all do... The Black Hills 124 has been unobtainium for a while so when I saw some for cheap I ordered a few boxes. My main go to up until now has been the Hornaday 124...but after today I will probably be carrying the federals for the reasons listed above.

Stone
21 November 2015, 11:10
Another big federal fan here as well. Like the HST's but carry the 135g +p Tactical bonded. IMO from the research I have done, its definitely one of the top performers.

El Cid
22 November 2015, 19:47
While I am issued 9mm HST at work, I have started carrying 147gr flatnose (federal or winchester, whichever I can find).

HST and other hollowpoint ammo does not do well with barricades (cars, house doors) - 147gr does really well, the wound channel is negligible.

You're carrying FMJ ammo on and off duty? Why not use one of the FBI tested and approved 147gr loads? They have no issues with barriers. If you're not ready to trust the new Gold Dot G2, the bonded Ranger works great. Only way I'd consider FMJ is for 38/380 or for bear protection in the woods. Way too much liability to use it for defensive purposes in my book.

dgod
23 November 2015, 07:42
I carry a .45, G2RIP, Snag Mag, so 2 Mags Full. Backup is a Sig P220, 9MM with Alternating G2Rip and Hornady SD HP's

Never had to use it, but if I do, I'm satisfied it will get whatever is necessary accomplished.

Great Thread...

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 08:39
You're carrying FMJ ammo on and off duty? Why not use one of the FBI tested and approved 147gr loads? They have no issues with barriers. If you're not ready to trust the new Gold Dot G2, the bonded Ranger works great. Only way I'd consider FMJ is for 38/380 or for bear protection in the woods. Way too much liability to use it for defensive purposes in my book.

I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.

El Cid
23 November 2015, 14:15
I carry hst at work, its issued and I have no say.

As for off duty i carry 147gr flatnose.

Ive seen first hand what hst does to people and what it does to vehicles and barriers.

If anyone thinks hollow points are just as good as their fmj counterparts on car doors and the like, they are fooling themselves.

Conversely, the difference between fmj and hollow points are very minimal, almost negligible when applied to people.

If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 14:42
If FMJ worked the same or similar to JHP everyone would use FMJ since it's less expensive. None of the ammunition on Doc's list is FMJ. I don't believe any of the ammo that has passed FBI protocols is FMJ. The troops overseas who complain about the 9mm being less effective than they want are routinely told it's because they are limited to FMJ.

I can't find the story online but I recall reading many years ago that Philly PD had to lose an officer to convince them non-expanding ammo is a liability. As I remember it, 2 officers respond to a burglary call. One stays out front and one goes to check the back. Bad guy comes out the front and points a gun at that officer who does what he is supposed to and center punches the bad guy with whatever ammo they used then. Works perfectly and the bad guy dies. Unfortunately running toward them and out of view directly behind the bad guy was the other officer. The rounds that killed the bad guy kept going and killed the first officer's partner.

Either way none of the research I've seen in the last 15 years or more supports carrying FMJ as equal to or better than JHP that is bonded or solid copper. If you have some I'd love to see it. Hell even Defoor candy canes his mags last time I trained with him. Every other round is FMJ and JHP.

I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.

DutyUse
23 November 2015, 15:27
I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.

Good post

Eric
23 November 2015, 15:48
There's a reason you'll be hard pressed to find an agency that issues ball ammo for duty use. Overpenitration is a reality and terminal performance with ball ammo suffers. All handgun rounds are anemic, but it's what we're stuck with for the sake of portability and shot placement trumps all.

alamo5000
23 November 2015, 16:00
I have nothing but respect for Doc's list and his knowledge in this field of study, though, what I have to say is based on personal experience and the experience of those who do work elsewhere.

I have personally seen hollowpoint ammo fragment and fail to neutralize persons inside a vehicle and outside of a vehicle (shooting through windshields and doors. Guys who work elsewhere have told me that they have seen very similar issues when they have to shoot people in or around vehicles and structures. I have yet to see FMJ's fail against vehicles or structures in the same manner.

Is there some sort of data available on 9mm through metal? Windshields? Doors? I have not found anything scientific so I assume there is not anything out there other than personal experiences.

The issue people are afraid of is over penetration, they are afraid they are going to shoot someone and the bullet will go through them and hit/kill someone else. Yes this is a very serious issue, one which has created an entire scientific field of study and industry. The fact remains that FMJ ammo pokes nearly the same size holes in people and functions better against barriers that hollowpoints.

I was training with Defoor and a few other guys, a few weeks ago, the consensus was that you should have more FMJ in your mag than hollowpoints because the likelihood of you fighting in or around vehicles and structures is so high that you need to be able to penetrate barriers.

I googled and could not find the PPD shooting you referred to, but if it was a long time ago, (like before they had glocks) they were using .357 revolvers and they didn't wear vests, different era.

OK, here's one for you.... since I am not a cop odds are having me try to get someone out of a car or whatever is pretty slim. Officers often have to sort of be on the 'offensive' when it comes to situations is my main point. So basically what are your opinions about straight up civilians like myself who are carrying for self defense purposes?

What about carrying HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ... in the mag? (assuming it all runs right)

In a way my whole theory for the most part is that barring if someone is trying to pull a gun on me from inside a car (IE a drive by) then odds are my main goals are to get away. Standing there gun battling someone huddled behind a car seems to me to be more the job of cops not concealed carry holders. My theory I guess is, that if I can get away I should. That is barring some 'active shooter' scenario when going after the guy is the only way to survive. For the most part for civilians like me, would carrying FMJ or something like that be worth it or needed considering that most threats probably won't involve some barrier or whatnot?

I could be totally wrong, but that is why I am asking opinions.

Yes if I was a cop and rolled up on some suicidal maniac in a car with a hostage, I might need to shoot his ass through the door or window... but your average CHL Joe doesn't do all that.

Opinions? ... think it over and share.


edit; just to add - 9mm, as most pistol caliber ammunition, is ineffective at instantly incapacitating a human being. Targeting/accuracy is the single most important factor in a shooting, not the ammo, not the gun, not the sights. Understanding that should instantly make it clear that the most direct route to that end is the most important.

This is my theory as well. One good shot to the cranium will stop a robbery in progress. Although I've never been shot and hope it never happens, but barring some PCP'ed out freak, a bullet hole changes attitudes. Basically though I am right there with you. Accurate shots on target are the way to go, that is assuming you aren't being jumped out behind the 7-11 where just drawing and shooting wild west style is the only option. But say for example if there was an active shooter in a mall and you had the opportunity to draw down...all those things are definite possibilities.

I have never been in a gun fight but I imagine keeping your head about you is way more important than almost anything.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 17:26
OK, here's one for you.... since I am not a cop odds are having me try to get someone out of a car or whatever is pretty slim. Officers often have to sort of be on the 'offensive' when it comes to situations is my main point. So basically what are your opinions about straight up civilians like myself who are carrying for self defense purposes?

What about carrying HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ... in the mag? (assuming it all runs right)

In a way my whole theory for the most part is that barring if someone is trying to pull a gun on me from inside a car (IE a drive by) then odds are my main goals are to get away. Standing there gun battling someone huddled behind a car seems to me to be more the job of cops not concealed carry holders. My theory I guess is, that if I can get away I should. That is barring some 'active shooter' scenario when going after the guy is the only way to survive. For the most part for civilians like me, would carrying FMJ or something like that be worth it or needed considering that most threats probably won't involve some barrier or whatnot?

I could be totally wrong, but that is why I am asking opinions.

Yes if I was a cop and rolled up on some suicidal maniac in a car with a hostage, I might need to shoot his ass through the door or window... but your average CHL Joe doesn't do all that.

Opinions? ... think it over and share.



This is my theory as well. One good shot to the cranium will stop a robbery in progress. Although I've never been shot and hope it never happens, but barring some PCP'ed out freak, a bullet hole changes attitudes. Basically though I am right there with you. Accurate shots on target are the way to go, that is assuming you aren't being jumped out behind the 7-11 where just drawing and shooting wild west style is the only option. But say for example if there was an active shooter in a mall and you had the opportunity to draw down...all those things are definite possibilities.

I have never been in a gun fight but I imagine keeping your head about you is way more important than almost anything.

Without getting into the super fine details, I suggest that you play the "what if" game that a lot of officer's play (and rookies are encouraged to play) so that you know what you are going to do in a bad situation. With that in mind, understand that whatever plans you make will blow up instantly when bullets start flying, this is 100% and you will default to whatever training you have. Again without getting in to the details, as we are talking about firearms - ammo specifically, that is a different conversation altogether. The only tidbit I will add is that you need to be prepared for any and every situation that comes your way (to the best of your ability). I carry a rifle and a pistol because I know my pistol is my key to opening the door to my rifle if the situation gets bad enough. Can I do good work with a pistol? Yes. Can I make a 50y headshot at a dude inside a vehicle? More than likely, yes, would I try? If I have to and should I be equipped for suck a situation? Yes, we all should.

The average CCW citizen drives a car to work and around town, they are inside structures and around structures most of time (if not always). Designing a carry setup that fits their specific circumstance is the best way to go about it. My suggestion is always to figure out what works for you, in your specific situation.

When I carry my G19, I carry 12 FMJ and 3 (after the first 3 FMJ rounds) hollow points (1 hst 147gr, 1 cor-bon 95gr, 1 liberty defense 50gr) - these specific loads because I know what HST does, I have not personally seen cor-bon's 95gr or liberty defense 50gr loads in action so I want to see what happens. The rest are 147gr flatnose federal ammo (I buy a case of 1000, I shoot a random sample of 100 from various boxes and then carry the rest out of those same boxes.

El Cid
23 November 2015, 17:41
When I carry my G19, I carry 12 FMJ and 3 (after the first 3 FMJ rounds) hollow points (1 hst 147gr, 1 cor-bon 95gr, 1 liberty defense 50gr) - these specific loads because I know what HST does, I have not personally seen cor-bon's 95gr or liberty defense 50gr loads in action so I want to see what happens. The rest are 147gr flatnose federal ammo (I buy a case of 1000, I shoot a random sample of 100 from various boxes and then carry the rest out of those same boxes.

That may work at close range but at 25 yards those bullets will have significantly different POI's. Heck, I've seen 147's go 5-10 inches above a bullseye when 115's hit the 10 ring. If you have to take a precise shot and have a gun zeroed for 147, the 95 and 50gr bullets will be hitting significantly lower - and under stress you'll have no idea when those rounds are chambered.

If a shooter wants to candy cane pistol mags I'd strongly recommend using HP's and FMJ of the same weight.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 17:45
That may work at close range but at 25 yards those bullets will have significantly different POI's. Heck, I've seen 147's go 5-10 inches above a bullseye when 115's hit the 10 ring. If you have to take a precise shot and have a gun zeroed for 147, the 95 and 50gr bullets will be hitting significantly lower - and under stress you'll have no idea when those rounds are chambered.

If a shooter wants to candy cane pistol mags I'd strongly recommend using HP's and FMJ of the same weight.

I hear people saying this, but I've never had an issue with this. Honestly, I've loaded a 10rnd mag full of 90gr 115, 124, 147 and 158 and they went around the same 4inch area I expected.

El Cid
23 November 2015, 18:01
I hear people saying this, but I've never had an issue with this. Honestly, I've loaded a 10rnd mag full of 90gr 115, 124, 147 and 158 and they went around the same 4inch area I expected.

At 25 yards or more? You must have a magic pistol.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 18:44
At 25 yards or more? You must have a magic pistol.

Or I can just shoot in a static environment...?

The only serious deviation I have ever seen was with my PWS MK107 from 55gr IMI to 62gr SS109 to 77gr OTM to 64gr speer gold dot - they were all over the place and not even remotely close to what I expected (the speer shot consistently 10inches higher than the 77otm which put a 3inch group at 100y).

El Cid
23 November 2015, 18:48
Or I can just shoot in a static environment...?

The only serious deviation I have ever seen was with my PWS MK107 from 55gr IMI to 62gr SS109 to 77gr OTM to 64gr speer gold dot - they were all over the place and not even remotely close to what I expected (the speer shot consistently 10inches higher than the 77otm which put a 3inch group at 100y).

Lol! Got me. You're one of the few I know on these forums who actually tests and trains so I want to believe. It just doesn't match up with what I've seen.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 19:06
Lol! Got me. You're one of the few I know on these forums who actually tests and trains so I want to believe. It just doesn't match up with what I've seen.

There are more out there, they just don't post as much as I do as they don't want to spend the time needed to type things out when they could be training, luckily for me I know how to do two things at once ;)

I may try to do something on video on this when it gets warmer and time permits me to. I've read a lot of BS online and when it comes to actually doing it in real life "on the streets, yo" it seems to usually not match up with internet dogma.

El Cid
23 November 2015, 19:39
There are more out there, they just don't post as much as I do as they don't want to spend the time needed to type things out when they could be training, luckily for me I know how to do two things at once ;)

I may try to do something on video on this when it gets warmer and time permits me to. I've read a lot of BS online and when it comes to actually doing it in real life "on the streets, yo" it seems to usually not match up with internet dogma.

I hear you. The most eye opening and valuable class I've taken was Pannone's Vehicle/TCCC. Makes me want to win the lottery just so I can shoot vehicles with every available caliber/type of ammo.

voodoo_man
23 November 2015, 19:41
I hear you. The most eye opening and valuable class I've taken was Pannone's Vehicle/TCCC. Makes me want to win the lottery just so I can shoot vehicles with every available caliber/type of ammo.

The first time I saw bullets do stupid things, like physics-defying shit, when hitting a vehicle I had a light-bulb. It really is amazing.