Here we go...

[Joelski]

False alarm, please disrdgard. Thanks for the input.

[GOST]

Did you try a different mag?

[Dstrbdmedic167]

What brand 223 ammo. Brand can make a difference. 2nd on different mag

[alamo5000]

Take a shot of the brass. The primers of the spent cases.

(That said I don't think this is the problem but we can rule it out for sure soon enough)

[Hmac]

Are you sure that the bolt is going into battery? Try hitting the forward-assist with each round, see if that gives you consistent firing.

[alamo5000]

Another thing to tell us is your basic parts list. Which upper, which bcg, which barrel and gas block to be specific.

[Joelski]

Another thing to tell us is your basic parts list. Which upper, which bcg, which barrel and gas block to be specific.

The brass is out back, I'll have to go look in the morning.

The bolt was in-battery. I checked once and it ejected the unfired round and went right back to the same place. I was kind of impressed how everything lined up when I assembled it, but for the price I paid, it damn well better! :)

Ammo is Freedom Munitions .223, new 55 grain FMJ.

The list:

Rainier Arms Select Medium Contour barrel. Chambered 5.56, mid-length gas
Rainier Arms Phosphated BCG
Geissele Super Gas block, secured with set screws (I read the thread), with blue loctite (fail, I know. Ordering some rocksett) Everything appears tight and clean. As I screwed in the set screws, I rocked the gas block on the barrel to settle the tip of the screws into the dimples on the barrel.
Upper is a San Tan Tactical Pillar billet upper receiver, I assembled the barrel to the receiver with a Geissele reaction rod, applied 40 ft/lbs torque as called-for in the instructions for the barrel nut.

Thanks fellas! I will try another mag tomorrow if I can get back out! At this point, I hope its the spring as I've kept several of those mags loaded for quite some times. OTOH, if the spring in the mag is bad, I'll be pissed as WTF would it be smart to keep unloaded mags??? Still, at this point, I'll take a sacked-out spring over a bigger problem any day!

[GOST]

I use USGI mags when function testing a new assembly.

[BoilerUp]

So, click but no boom? If the round is chambered and BCG is in battery, then neither the gas system nor magazine are the problem. What trigger / fire control group?

First off, I'd try different ammo. Isn't Freedom reman? Try some decent quality factory ammo. Were there primer strikes on the rounds that didn't fire? Two other possibilities: firing pin out of spec or hammer spring too light.

Do you have a different lower you could swap out, just to help isolate the issue? A different BCG? Swap things out until you isolate the issue.

[alamo5000]

At this point I am leaning towards bad ammo.

[cjd3]

Headspace check? If not PM me, I'll lend you my go no-go gauges.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

At this point I am leaning towards bad ammo.

2nd this.. i;ve been hearing spotty performance about freedom but I have yet to try them personally.

I'd buy some ammo known to be on the warmer side and try again...

[Hmac]

I doubt that it's the ammo and can't see why there would be a headspace problem or how it would cause this,

Check your fire control assembly. Getting the hammer spring upside down can cause failure to fire.

[Former11B]

I doubt that it's the ammo and can't see why there would be a headspace problem or how it would cause this,

Check your fire control assembly. Getting the hammer spring upside down can cause failure to fire.

I was going to ask for a pic inside the lower to check FCG install

[GOST]

Looks like you've got some good suggestions. Try a USGI mag to see if the PMAG isn't seating properly. Try the upper on a different lower to see if FCG is installed correctly. Try a different BCG in the upper to possibly see if extractor is keeping the bolt from going into full battery. And try different ammo, but I doubt it's short stroking if it's locking back. Good luck, and let us know what you find out.

[Joelski]

Copy, gents. Thanks for the advice. I will try to check all of these off tomorrow. On the ammo, it is new, never fired cases. Never ran into a problem before this. I have a SSA-E coming, and a lower and known-good bcg I can try, hopefully in the am.

[GOST]

Good luck, I doubt it's the barrel. My BCM 14.5" mid length has a smaller gas port, and only short strokes with some steel cased ammo.

[alamo5000]

Copy, gents. Thanks for the advice. I will try to check all of these off tomorrow. On the ammo, it is new, never fired cases. Never ran into a problem before this. I have a SSA-E coming, and a lower and known-good bcg I can try, hopefully in the am.

For the record... I run the same barrel, and same BCG, and a CMC Trigger... I have run about 2 cases of ammo through my gun without a problem...until I tried some Freedom ammo. Eventually it all went boom but I had to try several times with several rounds. No problem before. No problem since with the gun. All mine was new ammo as well.

[velocity2006]

I would be looking at the un-fired rounds to check primer strike, then I would try some known good ammo. If you still have issues, or the un-fired brass looks like light primer strikes, I would try another firing pin/ bcg or a harder hammer spring if necessary.

Pictures of the un-fired primers would help (not new ammo, but the malfunctioning ammo) if you still have them. The ammo usually tells a story though.

[Joelski]

When I stripped it to clean, I found that all the gas rings were perfectly aligned. That might not be enough by itself, but combined with a problem mag, it might be the culprit.

I should've taken that bolt apart when I first got it.

[El Cid]

I've never bought into the urban legend of lined up gas rings causing a problem. And even if they did, it would affect cycling rearward after a shot. They won't interfere with the firing pin or the round not going bang. From your description my money is on the ammo.

Oh and the bbl break in stuff is also urban legend and unnecessary in my experience. Just go shoot it.

ETA: I also don't see how the magazine is an issue. In your initial post it seems to have functioned perfectly.

[Joelski]

Are you kidding? I did the "shoot once and clean" for the first 5 rounds and lost interest. I'm a plinker, not a sniper. :D

So far, it seems to be the mag. Just got a whole mag (a different one) to work without issues before the rain started up again, so I'll see if it acts up tomorrow. I'm hoping it was a combo of a crappy mag and a new bolt full of snotty, sticky packing goop. It was actually hard to strip the rounds from that offending magazine by hand, as the tips hit the front edge of it. It doesn't seem that would be the case with the violently reciprocating mass of the bolt though, so I'll just hope it mircled itself.

[Joelski]

I really hope it's not the ammo, but if it's that finicky I need to find another source with comparable prices. Suggestions?

[Hmac]

IIUC, the problem is intermittent click -> no bang. The bolt is in battery and locks back on empty. How in the world does headspace, gas system, bad magazine or the urban legend of "aligned gas rings" play into that scenario?

[Joelski]

Barrel is headspaced with a "master bolt" at the factory, bad mag has happened to other people before, I never bought into the gas ring story, but I observed it with this bolt, new from the dealer. Never said it wasn't ammo, but the stuff I have runs just dandy in a carbine gassed 14.5".

[El Cid]

I think the thing Hmac and I are having trouble understanding is that your description of the problem doesn't include the gas system or the magazine in any way. If it wasn't the ammo, the only thing I can think of is a firing pin that is barely out of spec (just a hair too short) and it doesn't always reach the primer with enough force.

If the round chambered and you got a click it cannot be the magazine, and the gas system and BCG functioned properly to eject the empty and load the next round. If the round didn't fire the gas system never got to do its thing so the arrangement of the rings is not a factor either.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you fired a round. The next round was chambered and the bolt closed and you had a click. You manually cycled the rifle and the next round fired. That firing cycled the action and the next round was a click. If that's right, then I stick to the ammo as primary and the firing pin as a maybe. I've never actually seen or heard of a FP that was too short... But knowing how the rifle works I imagine it could be a possible issue.

It's very possible to have bad primers or have a round get moisture inside it. I had a case of ammo that would from time to time pop the primer. Most of the rounds I shot from that case worked just fine.

[Slippers]

You can run the bolt with a single gas ring without problems. Lining up 3 doesn't cause any issues.

[El Cid]

I really hope it's not the ammo, but if it's that finicky I need to find another source with comparable prices. Suggestions?

If the problem is the ammo, it's not that it's finicky. The failure to ignite isn't because it was in your rifle. It's likely those rounds would have failed regardless of the make of rifle. I don't know what brand your ammo is, but maybe contact the manufacturer? When I had the popped primers and a buddy had the same problem (one fell into the FCG and locked up the gun something awful), the manufacturer sent a prepaid label to return it and replaced it with new ammo. He also kept track of the rifles we were using for their database. He did that because in the case of popped primers sometimes a chamber that's too tight can be the cause. In our situation we had also bought our ammo from the same vendor at the same time so it could have been that lot.

I've had great luck with Federal, PMC, Fiocchi, and Black Hills. For the best prices I usually buy from SGAmmo.com.

[velocity2006]

Would love to see some pictures of the rounds that didn't go off, specifically their primers.

[Joelski]

I'll get 'em. Didn't get the chance today.

[Hmac]

Barrel is headspaced with a "master bolt" at the factory, bad mag has happened to other people before, I never bought into the gas ring story, but I observed it with this bolt, new from the dealer. Never said it wasn't ammo, but the stuff I have runs just dandy in a carbine gassed 14.5".

So it's not the barrel, not the magazine, not the bolt, not the gas rings or any part of the gas system -- because if the bolt is in battery then none of those things will cause click -> no bang. And it's not the ammo either because that ammo works fine in another rifle (whose gas system is irrelevant).

So, it's either the firing pin or the FCG, right? The firing pin just isn't hitting the primer hard enough.

[Joelski]

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Joelski144/ARs%20and%20Glocks/AR%20Project%20rifles/20151128_201634-1.jpg (http://s997.photobucket.com/user/Joelski144/media/ARs%20and%20Glocks/AR%20Project%20rifles/20151128_201634-1.jpg.html)

This is being replaced by a SSA very soon.

[Joelski]

I agree it's probably the ammo. Thanks for your ideas. I'm going to put more rounds through it and pay closer attention to what's going on. The other upper seemed to slightly catch a lug that would cause it to not slam home. This one feels like a Swiss watch the way everything fits together. Really hoping it was just a needs more rounds/cycling thing, or else I'm stuck with a thousand rounds of useless ammo.

[Hmac]

I agree it's probably the ammo. Thanks for your ideas. I'm going to put more rounds through it and pay closer attention to what's going on. The other upper seemed to slightly catch a lug that would cause it to not slam home. This one feels like a Swiss watch the way everything fits together. Really hoping it was just a needs more rounds/cycling thing, or else I'm stuck with a thousand rounds of useless ammo.
Why do you think the ammo might be defective if it works fine in your other rifle?

[Joelski]

So, it's NOT the ammo. How do I know? Odd story whichg leads me back to the people I asked originally. Hopefully this supplies more information.

Went back out today, Charge weapon, fire, BANG!

Pull trigger second time: nothing.

Drop mag, eject unfired round and here is what I saw:

The two light strikes are on the left, and are only a result of the bolt chambering the round. I repeat, the trigger did not release! The casing on the right is a properly fired round, showing evidence of a normal primer strike.

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Joelski144/ARs%20and%20Glocks/Gear/20151129_151859-1.jpg~original

For shits and giggles, I decided to cycle the safety on and back off. Guess what? yep, BANG!

Pull trigger again, hammer does not drop, no bang.

But, cycle the safety on and back off: BANG!

This repeated on and on, Relaibably. It was repeatable. Therefore, its not the ammo. It fires when I consciously decide for it to, I just there to be fewer steps for a semi automatic rifle of such pedigree.

So it is the FCG, eh? I have a BAD-CASS 45 degree safety and a DSG mil-spec trigger in a Rainier Ultra Match Gen 3 billet lower that's allegedly made to accomodate the short throw levers. Spring issue? Where do I go from here? Hope my gazillion dollar setup is imporved by this new trigger I bought for it?

[Dstrbdmedic167]

As someone else mentioned make sure the springs are correctly installed and not binding. Try another FCG if you have one and go from there

[BoilerUp]

if I understand you correctly, you pull the trigger but the hammer doesn't contact the firing pin. If that's the case, then besides swapping out your FCG I'd try swapping out the safety selector, too. I read on the interwebs where out-of-spec safeties caused issues.

[Joelski]

if I understand you correctly, you pull the trigger but the hammer doesn't contact the firing pin. If that's the case, then besides swapping out your FCG I'd try swapping out the safety selector, too. I read on the interwebs where out-of-spec safeties caused issues.

That's the conclusion I'm coming to. Hoping UWOne, or Gost or one of the other really knowledgeable guys on here will advise me who i should contact. If trigger, it should go away once I get the Geissele installed, but I'm not sure its a spring issue so much as a tolerance issue with the safety.

Has anybody else had issues with the short throw BAD's and CMT's lowers that are made for such safety levers?

And yes; if it's so obscure it defies reasoning, it can happen to me! :)

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I'd try the trigger first but if you have issues still here is BAD's contact info.

Battle Arms Development
702-802-3588 or sales@battlearmsdevelopment.com

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Also for the record I have a 90* cass that is a little finicky. It releases fine but feels like it's trying to bind when returning to safety. It works but it isn't a solid click both ways. Haven't really bothered me or caused issues but food for thought I supposed...

[Joelski]

Thanks brother, I appreciate the help! Thanks again, everybody who has replied. Honestly, I should have just spent more time with the ole diagnostic ballcap on, but I'm plenty humble enough to yell for help. I tried to find an issue similar to read about, but came up nada.

[El Cid]

Glad you were able to diagnose the issue. Did you install the trigger and safety? If it was me, I would remove them and reinstall them to see if that fixes it. I don't know your experience level, but Brownells has videos on YouTube that are very helpful. I use them every time I build a new one. My last one is a CMT lower and BAD-ASS 90 degree ambi. No issues.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Joelski]

Gonna yank that safety out and inspect it when the new trigger comes. I'm really hoping its an out of spec trigger casting causing the safety to malfunction. It makes a really nice clicky noise when going between settings.

[El Cid]

Gonna yank that safety out and inspect it when the new trigger comes. I'm really hoping its an out of spec trigger casting causing the safety to malfunction. It makes a really nice clicky noise when going between settings.

Does it pass a function check? I've gotten to where I do them without thinking about it anytime I assemble an upper and lower or put the slide back on a Glock.

[Joelski]

Yep. The problem occurs with reset after firing. Everything passes function testing at each stage of the assembly, but I can't simulate that part.

[Stone]

What trigger do you have in it?

[El Cid]

Yep. The problem occurs with reset after firing. Everything passes function testing at each stage of the assembly, but I can't simulate that part.

That's part of the function test. Hand cycle the bolt and press the trigger. It should release/click. Hold the trigger to the rear and cycle the bolt. Release the trigger and you should hear and feel the reset. If it passes that, cycle again and put the weapon on safe and press the trigger to ensure it works. If any of those steps don't work then it's time to disassemble the FCG and safety.

[Joelski]

That's part of the function test. Hand cycle the bolt and press the trigger. It should release/click. Hold the trigger to the rear and cycle the bolt. Release the trigger and you should hear and feel the reset. If it passes that, cycle again and put the weapon on safe and press the trigger to ensure it works. If any of those steps don't work then it's time to disassemble the FCG and safety.

I figured it out. :foreheadslap:

[GOST]

I've heard of some BAD 45 degree selectors having issues with Wilson TTU triggers. I think that the short throws were changed from 45 degrees to 50 due to this.

[Joelski]

It's not the safety. There's a reason the trigger wasn't resetting.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

It's not the safety. There's a reason the trigger wasn't resetting.

You had the springs wrong didn't you? [emoji6]

[Joelski]

You had the springs wrong didn't you? [emoji6]

I figured everybody else noticed.

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I figured everybody else noticed.

Well at least you got it sorted.

[GOST]

That's the conclusion I'm coming to. Hoping UWOne, or Gost or one of the other really knowledgeable guys on here will advise me who i should contact. If trigger, it should go away once I get the Geissele installed, but I'm not sure its a spring issue so much as a tolerance issue with the safety.


I'm definitely no subject matter specialist, others here are a lot more knowledgeable than I. The only BAD short throw compatibility issues I know of are with AR Gold and Wilson TTU triggers. I've never heard of issues of compatibility with Geissele's though.

[BoilerUp]

I figured everybody else noticed.

I had to go back and look at the picture. When I looked the first time I was just looking to see if the hammer spring looked right. I didn't notice that it was missing the trigger spring.

[Stone]

Learning has occurred... How is it running now?

[Joelski]

Learning has occurred... How is it running now?

At night, in the house, with the trigger removed, awaiting the Geissele replacement. The same mistake will not be repeated. Learning did indeed occur. ;)

The gun also came home with a busted clip on the CH. What a shithouse weekend. Silver lining: my ammo that I have 1,200 rounds of works fine.

[Stone]

Wisdom is truly earned. Glad you got it dialed in.

[Joelski]

Thanks man.

[Joelski]

The fix is in boys. Ordered Saturday from Primary, USPS priority shipping. Website said to expect delays. My homies in the Republic can get this shit done!

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Joelski144/ARs%20and%20Glocks/RA-Recce/20151130_171235-1.jpg (http://s997.photobucket.com/user/Joelski144/media/ARs%20and%20Glocks/RA-Recce/20151130_171235-1.jpg.html)

[Joelski]

Actually, any old trigger spring would work, but nothing but the best for this champagne gun. I'ma call her PRINCESS! :D

Now, back to you regularly scheduled backwards scope mount ridicule. [:D]

[DutyUse]

Grats on the SSA! G makes some amazing gear, you'll be happy

[Joelski]

Ya know, I've always been a stock trigger guy up until I redid the trigger in my Glock and felt the difference a new connector, springs and clean and polish could make. Always have used standard triggers in all my AR's dating back to my 1984 A2. The snide comment I made elsewhere is actually trie; I want a rifle made of top shelf parts and with the trigger, there is really nothing else I can upgrade inless I buy the RA irons to replace my MBUS Pros. Either way, I've got a start on my M100 (ish) clone and will start it after the first of the year. Kinda wish Fathom would get STT to do a AR10 combo!

[Joelski]

All fixed!

http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af93/Joelski144/ARs%20and%20Glocks/RA-Recce/20151130_212729-1.jpg (http://s997.photobucket.com/user/Joelski144/media/ARs%20and%20Glocks/RA-Recce/20151130_212729-1.jpg.html)

[Joelski]

Fired 360 rounds flawlessly without a single malfunction of the rifle, or the ammo. I will continue to buy this ammo with confidence. Trigger and recoil was smooth as glass as well. I think I've found the magic I was after in this REECE Rifle Mod.