Anti walk pin compatibility survey

[Duffy]

Gents, I need your opinion please.
How many of you use anti-walk pins? If an ambi mag catch is incompatible with them (the bar is 0.1455 thick and does not allow the ambi mag catch paddle to be fully depressed), would that matter to you?

I'm going somewhere with this. EMR-A's paddle will not clear the extra 0.1455" protrusion on the receiver without a redesign of the lever, in order to accommodate the thickest section of a KNS anti-walk pin bar.

I used to have them on one of my receivers, but changing triggers (doing tests for selector compatibility) was a pain, so I removed them. I don't run them anymore.

Your thoughts are appreciated :P

[Dstrbdmedic167]

I ran them one time a while back. Ordered a set when I was building my RA Mod 2 SBR. they didn't work so they ended up throwing them in the parts bin.. The one rifle I had them on now does not...

[Mecha_Arms]

I don't use them. Seems like a lot of folks have moved away from them, but it'll be interesting to see what others have to say on the matter.

[Duffy]

Thank you. I don't want to compromise the paddle/lever for it, it will reduce the available surface area for the finger to press on. There isn't enough material to cut a relief underneath the paddle/lever, so I'm leaning towards keeping the design as is, even if it's incompatible with the thickest KNS anti-walk pin bars.

To me, this incompatibility isn't a deal breaker. Of all the ARs I have, only one used to have them, and now not even that AR does. I just don't like the idea of adding a feature, and have to remove another in order for that feature to work.

[GOST]

I don't use them.

[DutyUse]

Never use them

[cjd3]

I thought I needed them, because it seems that there is an online epidemic of triggers and hammers flying out of lowers. The fine folks here have convinced me not to install them, and so far, nothing has walked out. So I'll save that cash to try an EMR-A in the future.
You could always market the EMR-A-AWPC For anti walk pin folks.

[velocity2006]

I use them.

[gatordev]

I'm sure you know this already, but stick with me...

There's really no technical reason to use them unless a) your FCG pin holes are out of spec (and you don't want to have them fixed) or b) the springs are installed incorrectly. Also, with all the Geissele fanboys here (not a dig...I've got my fair share), even if you're running a registered lower, a SSF is supposed to be designed to prevent egging the pin holes.

So it seems like you'd be adjusting for a product that's not really all than necessary. But that's just me.

[Duffy]

gatordev, I'm inclined to agree with you, that they're non-standard. There has been precedents in our design already anyway, for instance, the ABC/R is incompatible with any battery assist device because I didn't think designing the upper paddle around a non-standard device was necessary.

We won't be coming out with anti walk pins, the market has plenty of them for folks that need them [BD]

I'm excited to bring out the EMR-A with the newly redesigned paddle. When it's all done, I'll show you what the old design looks like [:D]

[GOST]

Does the pins that come with CMC triggers affect the paddle?

[SINNER]

I have an early CMC that came with the KNS pins. Only set I've ever used. Ambi control function is 100 times more important to me than "fixing" a non issue.

[Duffy]

I just realized something…how stupid of me haha [crazy]

While designing and testing the EMR long ago, I saw the average travel of the mag catch before it releases the mag is something like 0.06 or 0.07. The mag would long be dropped before the ambi mag catch’s lever tip comes in contact with the KNS antiwalk pin bars. If the user continues to put pressure on the lever, it’ll bottom out on the bar and rub on it, but it won’t stop it from dropping the mag, so the issue of clearance is really a non-issue after all.

So then both KNS and CMC trigger's screw head may come in contact with the underside of the lever/paddle, but it won't affect it in anyway.

[Deadwing]

Sounds like i'm late to the party, but the only set of anti-walk pins i own were installed to tighten up some slop on a lower with out of spec FCG pins (and that lower now sees next to zero use). Other than that, i don't bother with them.

[DutyUse]

I was looking around the parts bin and I forgot, we actually do have a set of anti walks. The elftman trigger came with some. I knew there was a reason I wasn't fond of this trigger [BD]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/09/69a0be778259b9113456c5c8eb678780.jpg

[Deadwing]

lol :P

[din]

I put some on the first AR I built. I'll never put them on another. There wasn't anything wrong with them, they're just expensive and don't add anything to a rifle. I imagine they're still popular with people who buy ARs with Punisher rollmarks and stuff like that.

[Stone]

Never used them and never needed them. Always thought it was a scam. I put them right up there with the Mood ring and canned sunshine. I run Geissle triggers, has a spring inside to lock the pin in place. PS, I ran your ABC through my carbine course twice this weekend and all I can say is WOW! Rock solid, excellent design! Ran flawlessly.

[Stone]

@ Dutyuse, that thing looks exactly like the masterlink on the chain of my YZ250f... Hehehehe...

[Pyzik]

Don't use them

[Duffy]

Is Bill Geisselle still advising against using them with his triggers? Last thing I heard was KNS was going to make a version of pins that wouldn't cause failures Geissele and others triggers experienced?

[SINNER]

As far as I have heard they are still not recommended. For one they are the wrong size and I have heard they are much softer than the pins supplied with the Geissele triggers.

[Joelski]

Is Bill Geisselle still advising against using them with his triggers? Last thing I heard was KNS was going to make a version of pins that wouldn't cause failures Geissele and others triggers experienced?

What failures? Got examples? I suppose anything can fail, but I've never heard of a Geissele doing anything but working the way it's supposed to.

[Bronco75]

I once went full retard with the Nickel Boron Upper/Lower and rail. Stainless barrel and brake. Chrome FA. UBR stock. Nickel Boron BCG. Chrome controls and even some KNS pins. Since I didn't have a rapper to rent the gun to for a video, I took it to my local range. I sat down and pulled that thing out of the case and I was overwhelmed by the amount of douche that instantly surrounded me at the range. I knew right then I had crossed the line and I needed to get rid of the abortion I had created as soon as possible.

I now associate KNS pins with that experience.

[Joelski]

While I don't necessarily consider them douche accoutrements, I don't see the need for them, otherwise they'd have been around for 50 years. That said, I did try some, and one set is still on a lower, though I haven't gotten around to upgrading the trigger on it. Once I put a Geissele in it, the KNS pins will come off and stay off.

[velocity2006]

So much hatred for the KNS pins :(

I use them, only because I had pins walk during a hunt. Was not my rifle, but never wanted to deal with that issue again. For 30 dollars a rifle it's pretty simple peace of mind, and an extremely small expense in the scope of a rifle that I intend on hunting with.

That said I have had 0 issues with builds I have not use them on when the springs are properly installed.

[DutyUse]

I once went full retard with the Nickel Boron Upper/Lower and rail. Stainless barrel and brake. Chrome FA. UBR stock. Nickel Boron BCG. Chrome controls and even some KNS pins. Since I didn't have a rapper to rent the gun to for a video, I took it to my local range. I sat down and pulled that thing out of the case and I was overwhelmed by the amount of douche that instantly surrounded me at the range. I knew right then I had crossed the line and I needed to get rid of the abortion I had created as soon as possible.

I now associate KNS pins with that experience.


Hahahah that's hilarious

[SINNER]

What failures? Got examples? I suppose anything cab fail, but I've never heard of a Geissele doing anything but working the way it's supposed to.

The KNS pins are undersized and caused some issues with the 2 stage triggers resetting. And there were also claims from Geissele they had KNS pins wear quickly, and also developed burrs that caused a gritty feel and a doubling incident.

[Duffy]

Quite a bit of opinions and info here http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/450129_Geissele_Triggers_andamp__KNS_Anti_Rotation al_Pins__Compatability_Confusion.html

[Stone]

Yep, this guy sums it up...

"Throw out the stupid fuckin KNS pins, they have NO place being used with Geissele triggers." and, " In short, if you own a Geissele trigger and have it held in place with KNS pins, you're a moron" That was one funny ass thread, I was rollin!

[Joelski]

I once went full retard with the Nickel Boron Upper/Lower and rail. Stainless barrel and brake. Chrome FA. UBR stock. Nickel Boron BCG. Chrome controls and even some KNS pins. Since I didn't have a rapper to rent the gun to for a video, I took it to my local range. I sat down and pulled that thing out of the case and I was overwhelmed by the amount of douche that instantly surrounded me at the range. I knew right then I had crossed the line and I needed to get rid of the abortion I had created as soon as possible.

I now associate KNS pins with that experience.

So, like this:

https://www.rainierarms.com/media/product/0e8/cobalt-kinetics-b-a-m-f-edge-brazed-16-ra-01-001-ck-bamfedg-brzd16-by-cobalt-kinetics-f44.jpg

[Duffy]

Lol [:D]

[Stone]

Is that a double FA or is it just on the wrong side of the gun?[pop]

[Eric]

Like they say, a solution looking for a problem. If your pins are walking out, there's something else screwed up. None in any of mine.

[DutyUse]

So, like this:

https://www.rainierarms.com/media/product/0e8/cobalt-kinetics-b-a-m-f-edge-brazed-16-ra-01-001-ck-bamfedg-brzd16-by-cobalt-kinetics-f44.jpg

Wow. That's almost as good as the "light saber" build someone posted for sale [BD]

[GOST]

Is that a double FA or is it just on the wrong side of the gun?[pop]

Yes, also works as a bolt release.

[Bronco75]

So, like this:

https://www.rainierarms.com/media/product/0e8/cobalt-kinetics-b-a-m-f-edge-brazed-16-ra-01-001-ck-bamfedg-brzd16-by-cobalt-kinetics-f44.jpg

LOL...I actually fondled that thing at RA. I have to say the machine work is beautiful and if I was El Chapo...I would hang that thing behind my desk above my stuffed tiger. To answer your question though...yes...exactly like that with more of an ARFCOM/Armslist type flavor...comes with extra clips and a grip pod LOL

[Duffy]

Great, so now the forward assist's rim gets in the way of a user's finger nail or knuckle even if he's not an ambi charging handle user.

[Joelski]

LOL...I actually fondled that thing at RA. I have to say the machine work is beautiful and if I was El Chapo...I would hang that thing behind my desk above my stuffed tiger. To answer your question though...yes...exactly like that with more of an ARFCOM/Armslist type flavor...comes with extra clips and a grip pod LOL

You are like the Lord of War! Can you get me the gun of Rambo? :D

http://3ojv801zx6ub12ssdy326u7b.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/lord-of-war-2005-photo.jpg

[RiverRat]

Tap, rack, bling?

[cjd3]

So, like this:

https://www.rainierarms.com/media/product/0e8/cobalt-kinetics-b-a-m-f-edge-brazed-16-ra-01-001-ck-bamfedg-brzd16-by-cobalt-kinetics-f44.jpg

Shouldn't this be called the DAMF instead?
I'd take the light sbaer over this any day.

[Duffy]

When being different, not being better, drives product development [BD]

Speaking in general terms, superb machining work is nice, but it should serve an end. Without a purpose, it's just good machining without bringing anything to the build.

In the age of accommodating body armor and different user preferences, a fixed stock, no matter how different and cool looking, is a throwback. In this case, form won, function lost, and on purpose.

[Deadwing]

Oh, Roger... Who needs function with all that blingalicious form?! [BD]

[Duffy]

Different priorities I guess. The industry is awash in AR and AR accessories, in order to stand out, it's probably easier to do something different and eye catching than to compete with the likes of Colt, Daniel Defense, KAC, BCM, etc.

The problem is that this line of thinking that becomes products is easy to see, maybe I've been in this industry just long enough to be able to see it for what it is, maybe I'm just cynical [crazy] :P

Sionics Weapon Systems is my kind of company. Nothing flashy, just very good, reliable, and high quality ARs. A quiet professional, one might say. A company that builds its reputation one rifle at a time, that puts its customers above all else. That to me is the right order of priorities.

[Deadwing]

For the record, I'd take a Colt 6920 over that blinged-out monstrosity any day of the week.

[Duffy]

Deadwing, me too. But we, and I suspect most members at WEVO, are decidedly not the target audience of theirs.