EOTech refunds

[BoilerUp]

Looks like L3 is issuing refunds for EOTechs.

http://soldiersystems.net/2015/12/08/l3-communications-eotech-issuing-refunds-for-holographic-weapon-sights/

I wonder if they'll fix the defects in newer models or just cut the price and market them as consumer grade.

[UWone77]

A dozen guys in my Dept have already been approved for refunds. I've been saying for years EoTechs are garbage. Battery Compartment, Loss of Zero, Mount system sucks, I mean I don't know what people saw in them. Everytime we ran a class, at least 1 EoTech shit the bed.

[Thompson]

I bet part of it is since people see MIL guys use it, they think it must be good to go.

[BoilerUp]

I've been wanting to buy an EXPS2. I'm attracted to the circle-dot reticle and huge FOV. Cut the price point way down and I'd still be interested, but I'll be looking at Aimpoint for my SHTF carbine.

[Eric]

I wonder if there is a time-frame cutoff for a refund. The on-line form (http://www.eotechinc.com/return-authorization-request-form) that is referenced makes no specific mention of a refund. Has anyone seen anything from EOTech (L-3) that has a specific refund amount?

[fledge]

My RMA approval specially said refund for the amount I sent them (on my receipt) and for $15 shipping reimbursement.

[MoxyDave]

Pity they have these problems. My first optic was a 552 and I really liked it. Aside from poor battery life I thought it was the cat's meow. I still love the reticle ...

[Naytwan]

According to the Gun Collective they are issuing refunds as gift certificates.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEPM0h8FrtI

A little over 3 minutes in.

[Calico Jack]

The belief is the gift certificate is a hoax. I haven't seen any other post stating it is a L3 gift certificate. When my reimbursement arrives I'll post what it is.

[Naytwan]

The belief is the gift certificate is a hoax. I haven't seen any other post stating it is a L3 gift certificate. When my reimbursement arrives I'll post what it is.

I hope that is true, it would kinda suck if that's what they were doing. I sold my EOTech years ago so I wasn't concerned. Just passing on the news I saw.

[UWone77]

Confirmed with a buddy at work who called EOTech and already had his refund approved, this is being paid out in American Dollars, not Widget Credits.

[Stone]

[QUOTE=Naytwan;121052]According to the Gun Collective they are issuing refunds as gift certificates.

Yep, for another EOTURD. Oh the irony...[bash]

[Dstrbdmedic167]

Confirmed with a buddy at work who called EOTech and already had his refund approved, this is being paid out in American Dollars, not Widget Credits.

Bwahahaha Funny but true... Glad I sold my only eotech earlier this summer....

[Naytwan]

Confirmed with a buddy at work who called EOTech and already had his refund approved, this is being paid out in American Dollars, not Widget Credits.

Cool, that would suck if they gift cert thing was true. Glad it wasnt.

[UWone77]

From Solider Systems: http://soldiersystems.net/2015/12/17/eotech-sight-returns-overwhelming-us-postal-service/?utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=twitterfeed


Had an interesting conversation with the head of the Liberty St. postal office in Ann Arbor, MI today. That office is responsible for handling all the mail going to EOtech returns in Ann Arbor, MI. I sent my EXPS2-0 in for a refund that was approved and it wasn’t showing as delivered yet, and was supposed to get there on Dec 8.
Today the guy at that office called me and apologized for not being able to locate it. They believe it was delivered but the carrier forgot to scan it because of the volume of packages being sent there.

Apparently they are getting 2 USPS truck loads a day in volume. Enough that USPS had asked EOtech to send a truck to the USPS office to come get all the packages.

This is for their Returns Dept. There are that many going back there.

[MonkeyBomb]

I submitted my request for a refund this morning. I will see how it goes. I was planning on buying an Aimpoint pro next month. I may o ahead and get an M-4 s if they get my refund in a reasonable time.

[Jerry R]

I have four. Think I will send in the request and see what they say.

Edit: Submitted (1) RA Form 12/18/2015 @ 13:45 with comments listing four HWS devices with Serial Numbers and Mfg Dates. I asked if I would have to submit a separate RA for each device. I listed "Failure to maintain zero." as the reason. Not sure if I should have said "Return based upon recall." Hope they don't want them back for repair. I will keep this post updated with results. [pop]

Edit: 12/21/15 - I received an email request from EOTech on my RA Form - they wanted purchase location and price - receipts if available. I replied stating I did not have receipts, but that I keep Excel sheets on all my builds - includes purchase location and price paid for all parts and accessories. I provided the requested data in that reply.

Edit: 12/22/15 - I received an email from EOTech stating my updated request for refund was received and approved at the pricing I provided (all were less than MSRP). They requested the entire email thread be printed and placed in the box with the optics. I placed the optics in the original factory boxes along with the printout, and shipped all four in a single (Large) USPS Priority Mail box and took it to the Post Office this morning. Now we wait for the refund.

Edit: 12/22/15 - Second edit of the day. I received an email from Customer Service stating they had cleaned up the RA so there would be no confusion on the refund amount. Surprised me. They seem to be on top of this. No idea when the refund will appear.

Edit: 12/28/15 - Package delivered to EOTech at 14:03 Today.

[Eric]

Like Jerry, I have four to return (XPS2-0 x2 and 512 x2) and I elected to complete a separate form for each unit. With the upcoming holidays and L3 receiving, I assume, thousands of these, I don't anticipate a speedy turnaround time.

[Joelski]

Hoping they sell these for marked down prices to recoup some of their loss. I wouldn't mind picking up a couple of EXPS 3.2's.

[Eric]

Hoping they sell these for marked down prices to recoup some of their loss. I wouldn't mind picking up a couple of EXPS 3.2's. I would not be surprised to see them get refurbished, distinctly marked as such (maybe laser engraved?) and sold at a great discount with no warranty support.

[BoilerUp]

I would not be surprised to see them get refurbished, distinctly marked as such (maybe laser engraved?) and sold at a great discount with no warranty support.

I hope so. If the price is right, I'd be down for one.

[Joelski]

I would not be surprised to see them get refurbished, distinctly marked as such (maybe laser engraved?) and sold at a great discount with no warranty support.

Wouldn't bother me a bit. The issue was never discovered, despite the depth of expertise using it all these years, I'm positive it won't bother me!

[Jerry R]

I don't anticipate a speedy turnaround time.


The issue was never discovered, despite the depth of expertise using it all these years

Me either. I hope the funds arrive during an Aimpoint sale somewhere. I never saw the problem. Good friend that puts a lot more rounds downrange a year than I do said he always had to rezero every time he went to the range - regardless of environment or temperature. He had three 512 "AA Battery" series units. Rather than take a chance, I sent mine back.

[SINNER]

Wouldn't bother me a bit. The issue was never discovered, despite the depth of expertise using it all these years, I'm positive it won't bother me!

All the Eocrap issues being brought up now have been known for years. They are garbage and I for one am amazed it took so long for this to happen.

[JGifford]

So...will these units get overhauled and the quibbles solved, I wonder?

[Jerry R]

I can't find anywhere they have said what will happen. L-3 Communications (parent company) is a 12 to 13 billion dollar multi-national company. This might be a little painful, but not something they can't handle. If they resolve the issue, I think the prudent thing to do would be to "fix" them by refurb and remarket at a lower price-point. Prudent is not always the order of the day for corporations though. I kept my EOTech magnifier (nothing to go wrong with it) and it works great behind the Aimpoint Pro.

[SwissyJim]

decided to send mine in too.. I like it, but as my eyes age so does my astigmatism - so a good way to swap over to an etched optic.
Anyone get their refund already?

[Eric]

USPS tracking confirms it arrived and was signed for today. Now to see how long this takes...

[SwissyJim]

USPS tracking confirms it arrived and was signed for today. Now to see how long this takes...
yeah, I figure it's a wait and see.. and wait..and wait. Hope I'm wrong.

[Calico Jack]

I have read the wait may be 60 to 90 days for non agency returns.

[SwissyJim]

got my approval this morning to return... put 'recall due to POI shift' as the reason.

[ducrider14]

I sent two in, an exps2 and an exps3, filled out the form and within an hour had return authorization, wonder how long it will be to get the refund check back.

[Optimus Prime]

Got an email this morning:


Dear Optimus Prime,

Your product has been received and reviewed by EOTech and your refund is being processed. You will be updated by e-mail in the near future regarding check processing.

Thank You,

EOTech

It's been a good month since I sent mine in. I'll post when a check actually shows up...

[Jerry R]

I received this today (1/15/2016 @ 05:40 EST) - it appears they will be issuing checks:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Internet%20Error%20Messages/4d02e326-9a93-4c35-8597-292af63ed131_zps3usfa8xn.jpg~original

[SwissyJim]

got the same email

[MonkeyBomb]

UPS still hasn't delivered mine. They really dropped the ball this time.

[MonkeyBomb]

Mine was signed for Monday morning. I am wondering how long it will be before i get the confirmation e-mail. I am betting they are busy. We should be able to get a decent idea of the turnaround times based on all the people who have returned them early on and later.

My agency still hasn't shipped them back. That's going to be a healthy shipping bill.

[UWone77]

Mine was signed for Monday morning. I am wondering how long it will be before i get the confirmation e-mail. I am betting they are busy. We should be able to get a decent idea of the turnaround times based on all the people who have returned them early on and later.

My agency still hasn't shipped them back. That's going to be a healthy shipping bill.

I think our dept has 30k worth of EoTechs to send back.

[MonkeyBomb]

Thats going to be a bit bigger. We only had about 150 units.

Do you know what your agency is switching to? We are probably going with a mix of PRO's and MRO's.

[ducrider14]

just got verification that they received and reviewed my two units and that my refund is being processed and will be contacted by email in the near future regarding check processing

[MonkeyBomb]

Has anyone gotten a refund yet? My unit was signed for January 18th and I haven't gotten anything in an e-mail yet. 3 1/2 weeks is a bit long and they aren't responding to e-mails.

[UWone77]

Thats going to be a bit bigger. We only had about 150 units.

Do you know what your agency is switching to? We are probably going with a mix of PRO's and MRO's.

I think they are going to MICROs... but that's just specialty units. The patrol officers like me have to buy our own optics. [BD]

[Farva]

The patrol officers like me have to buy our own optics. [BD]

Not surprising one bit!

[UWone77]

Not surprising one bit!

It's the same everywhere right? Patrol is the backbone of the department! But we can't afford to give you guys anything... but let's outfit the other teams with 1 call out a month NV and Thermal.

[Farva]

It's the same everywhere right? Patrol is the backbone of the department! But we can't afford to give you guys anything... but let's outfit the other teams with 1 call out a month NV and Thermal.

Hahaha yep! And that one call out last 8 hours and nothing happens. The tires on your patrol car are showing wires?... Can you make it last to the end of the quarter? Radios don't function properly? Deal with it.

[Calico Jack]

It's the same everywhere right? Patrol is the backbone of the department! But we can't afford to give you guys anything... but let's outfit the other teams with 1 call out a month NV and Thermal.

Same here. We can't even get lights for rifles or pistols. If you want it you have to buy it yourself. We are issued bare bones 6920's with night sights.

[UWone77]

Same here. We can't even get lights for rifles or pistols. If you want it you have to buy it yourself. We are issued bare bones 6920's with night sights.

Seems like a Department should at least provide white lights to guys work at night or low light conditions, which is everyone. Seems like a liability if you have a bad shoot in low light conditions and/or a no shoot because you couldn't ID your target and you ultimately paid the price.

[MonkeyBomb]

I had one of our training guys try to tell one of my guys that if he showed up to qualify with a light mounted to his rifle he would be calling me and having them written up.

I about lost my mind. I went to their Lt and they tried to defend it until I pointed out it is kind of nice to ID a target and the difficulty with using a hand held light. I won but dang how ignorant can you be. 2/3 of us work in the dark and the rest are in the dark occasionally.

[MonkeyBomb]

On Topic. I did get a response from Eotech and they gave me a phone number for a customer service rep just for the return process. They say refund checks are going out and mine was in the que but it would be a couple of weeks because they are cutting the checks and sending them out in blocks.

[fledge]

Check arrived today. Did electronic deposit. Waiting for approval email that it cleared. Should know in the morning.

[Eric]

Check arrived today. Did electronic deposit. Waiting for approval email that it cleared. Should know in the morning. When did your returned optic arrive at EOTech?

[BoilerUp]

Well, so much for a lower price EOTech in the future. It appears that EOTech has already incorporated a few changes into their product to adress some of the issues (e.g., those pertaining to moisture and distortion of reticle at cold temperatures), but the core "thermal drift" problem has simply been disclosed on their website. So, if you buy a new one (at the same price point as before, btw), you have no recourse.

Form the "General Specifications" info on their website:


* EOTech users will often experience a point of impact shift away from the point of aim when the sight is used at a temperature different from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed. The point of aim shift may be greater the more extreme the temperature change. To achieve optimum accuracy, the sight should be re-zeroed whenever the temperature changes from the temperature at which the sight was zeroed.
* All EOTech sights exhibit a varying degree of parallax depending on operating conditions.

So, essentially, they will keep selling the product more-or-less as-is at the same price. Disappointing.

[Jerry R]

When did your returned optic arrive at EOTech?

I'm curious also. I shipped mine 12/22, delivered and signed for 12/28. I got the "Received Reviewed and Approved" email on 1/15.

[fledge]

Shipped 12/9 to EOTech
Refund is being processed email 1/15
Checked cleared 2/12

[Thompson]

So, here's an interesting story for ya.

Was at the Outdoor Show last weekend; while there had a chance to swing by the Rockwell Tactical Group booth. Was playing catch up with Jared (owner, also SF) and briefly mentioned this debacle to him.

He told me that all the times that he's done the cool guy stuff - he's never had a problem (at least not the ones regarding this debacle), or has any of his friends.

Granted to be fair (and in hindsight) - I did not ask him when he got his unit/date of manufacture.

Side note: Looks like Mako Group wants to get in on this.

From their FB post a couple days ago:

Did your EOTech optics fail you? Don't worry, Meprolight USA has a solution. For a limited time, get $250 towards an RDS PRO or $400 towards a Mepro MOR when you send us ANY used EOTech optic model! Visit www.themakogroup.com/eotechtradein for more info!

[voodoo_man]

Seems like a Department should at least provide white lights to guys work at night or low light conditions, which is everyone. Seems like a liability if you have a bad shoot in low light conditions and/or a no shoot because you couldn't ID your target and you ultimately paid the price.

LOL top brass doesn't care until it happens.

Then its your fault.

Because fuck you.

[gatordev]

So, here's an interesting story for ya.

Was at the Outdoor Show last weekend; while there had a chance to swing by the Rockwell Tactical Group booth. Was playing catch up with Jared (owner, also SF) and briefly mentioned this debacle to him.

He told me that all the times that he's done the cool guy stuff - he's never had a problem (at least not the ones regarding this debacle), or has any of his friends.


Keep in mind, SOCOM's note never said it would fail at a certain temperature point. What it said is that it didn't meet the contract requirements. There is a difference. During this whole brouhaha, I've always been amused how people are dropping their Eotechs because their zero shifted after a 50+ degree temp change. Like somehow Eotech is supposed to change the laws of physics. But I know that's not what this is about. This is about getting money for something you don't want anymore because it's not the new hotness.

[BoilerUp]

Keep in mind, SOCOM's note never said it would fail at a certain temperature point. What it said is that it didn't meet the contract requirements. There is a difference. During this whole brouhaha, I've always been amused how people are dropping their Eotechs because their zero shifted after a 50+ degree temp change. Like somehow Eotech is supposed to change the laws of physics. But I know that's not what this is about. This is about getting money for something you don't want anymore because it's not the new hotness.

I'm not sure to which laws of physics you are referring (ballistics or electro-optics?), but two things come to mind: 1) the only physics an end user of a weapon sight (think "18 year old private") should be required to understand is that gravity pulls bullets down, and 2) a product should do what its manufacturer states it does. In the case of EOTech, they said their HWS did something that it does not. Actually, two things: it is not parallax free and zero changes as result of temperature changes. To be clear, I haven't interpreted the "thermal drift" to be related to the effect of temperature on ballistics, but the fact that optic will actually "point" some place differently as a result of temperature swings.

Personally, I'm less concerned about the performance of the hardware than I am troubled by the behavior of L3 management.

[gatordev]

I'm not sure to which laws of physics you are referring (ballistics or electro-optics?), but two things come to mind: 1) the only physics an end user of a weapon sight (think "18 year old private") should be required to understand is that gravity pulls bullets down, and 2) a product should do what its manufacturer states it does. In the case of EOTech, they said their HWS did something that it does not. Actually, two things: it is not parallax free and zero changes as result of temperature changes. To be clear, I haven't interpreted the "thermal drift" to be related to the effect of temperature on ballistics, but the fact that optic will actually "point" some place differently as a result of temperature swings.

I'm not arguing that it's doing something different than you describe, but that it really doesn't matter to the end user. It DOES matter as far as the contract goes. If it's not completely parallax free, does that make it not a useful sight? I'd argue the small bit of parallax doesn't make it significantly inaccurate (and to be fair most parallax-free optics aren't truly parallax free). But what does matter, in this case, is that the requirement stated it to be parallax-free. Since it's apparently not, then there's a violation of contract and L3 takes them back.

As for zero drift, two things: 1) regardless of the age, experience, or rank of the end-user, he/she needs to rezero after extreme temp changes. 2) As for your interpretation that the "thermal drift" is related to the optic...that's what I was getting at. It might be optic-related, but if you read the SOCOM blurb, it's not entirely clear (at least to me). But again, even if the zero does drift at extreme temperature changes, the end-user needs to rezero it anyway if he hopes to hit anything at distance. Regardless, because the requirement was no change in zero with extreme temp change, the contract was violated and L3 takes them back.

At the end of the day, the SOCOM note doesn't actually say Eotechs are the worst thing since herpes, and I'm not trying to argue for or against Eotechs in general (I own two, and one isn't even installed. All my other serious RDS are Aimpoints). All I'm pointing out is that the SOCOM note is pointing out concerns because it's not meeting the requirements set forth, and .mil users need to be aware. The fact that L3 is taking returns from civilians (who are not bound by requirements or a contract) is an interesting choice. And as expected, lots of people who have perfectly working Eotechs are cashing them in because they can. I don't blame them, but it's interesting to watch.

[MonkeyBomb]

I couldn't disagree with you more. If I have a optic that I am told holds zero and it doesn't thats a problem. My carbine can sit in the trunk during summer and may well reach 120 to 140 degrees in the trunk. At night it can swing to the mid 50's.

Now if it is off by a few MOA's and I know it is a problem and I still use it it can be a big problem for me and my agency. Thats just in a day. I can't be expected to rezero every day,

No way in hell I am going to field it if there is that big a problem. Especially if there is an option that is just as good without the same problem.

Now why would I hold on to a liabilty when I can get my money back and reduce my liability.

I thought about keeping it for a plinking gun. But having a backup optic that is identical to the one I filed is pretty nice.

I think it is pretty decent of L-3 to buy them back without a fuss. After all when I bought mine it was under the pretense that their claims were correct and I wouldn't have to check my zero every day before I hit the streets nor keep it in a temperature controlled environment.

Anyone that buys one after this has no complaint.

[gatordev]

I couldn't disagree with you more. If I have a optic that I am told holds zero and it doesn't thats a problem. My carbine can sit in the trunk during summer and may well reach 120 to 140 degrees in the trunk. At night it can swing to the mid 50's.

Now if it is off by a few MOA's and I know it is a problem and I still use it it can be a big problem for me and my agency. Thats just in a day. I can't be expected to rezero every day,

No way in hell I am going to field it if there is that big a problem. Especially if there is an option that is just as good without the same problem.

Now why would I hold on to a liabilty when I can get my money back and reduce my liability.

I thought about keeping it for a plinking gun. But having a backup optic that is identical to the one I filed is pretty nice.

I think you're misunderstand my post. If you truly are shooting your gun at 120+ degrees after it's been zeroed at 50 degrees, and you expect it to hold zero, then you're a fool. However, if you've zeroed it at ~80 degrees (I'm just picking a median number) and expect it to not shift due to device temperature (ie the optic is over or under heated due to being in your trunk), then I completely understand you being upset.

My point is that those two scenarios are different. The SOCOM note is a bit muddled and doesn't clarify which scenario is happening, according to them. I agree, it assumes it's the latter, but it doesn't come out and say that. That's all I'm getting at. If it is truly the latter, I can COMPLETELY understand the desire to switch out an Eotech for something more consistent.


I think it is pretty decent of L-3 to buy them back without a fuss. After all when I bought mine it was under the pretense that their claims were correct and I wouldn't have to check my zero every day before I hit the streets nor keep it in a temperature controlled environment.

Anyone that buys one after this has no complaint.

Agree on both counts.

[Optimus Prime]

Check came today, and for a few dollars more than I expected (I guess they overestimate shipping.) It's enough to cover most of a Trijicon MRO, so I can't complain too much!

[ducrider14]

got my check today, sent on 12/15, got refunded an exps2 and an exps3

[gatordev]

I saw a post today on another forum which referenced a M4C.net thread about zero change and temp. I didn't have time to follow the original thread, but the bottom line was that the test show a change of temp to the optic (not environment) was significantly affecting POI shift. Definitely a great data point and solidifies the SOCOM message a little more. It would be interesting to see the same test with an Aimpoint, just to see the results.

Regardless, I'll keep my two Eotechs for now, as they're not critical to my safety (at least for now), but it does significantly back Monkeybomb's concerns for those that rely on these things for actual work.

[SwissyJim]

got my refund in the mail yesterday...

[Eric]

Arrived at EOTech Dec 28th and refund showed up today. I ended up keeping one of the four, just because. I guess it's time to finally order an MRO and another PRO.

[103m 95g]

Its been awhile since I posted here...
my experience with EOTech.
My Department has pulled every EOTech from our issued Patrol rifles, which is approx 250 units in service throughout the dept.
I am sending back both of my 512s and have gotten the return authorization approval email this morning.
both of my units were sent back for repair, $75 each time, in the past. I had one unit fail in a carbine class in 2009, the reticule would shut off when firing, the other 512 had an issue with the brightness settings.

I just have to decide to go PRO, MRO, or another H1. I did order an ACO to try

[Jerry R]

I shipped mine 12/22, delivered and signed for 12/28. I got the "Received Reviewed and Approved" email on 1/15. Check arrived today (March 18th).

[Eric]

EOTech story from The Washington Post. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2016/04/03/u-s-special-operations-units-are-using-faulty-rifle-sights/) This part was interesting: "According to Allen, SOCOM is evaluating other sights, including a potentially improved version of the EOTech for a long-term replacement for SOCOM’s close-combat sight requirements." I wonder what this "improved version" will be.

[DUX]

Glad I invested in Mk 1 eyeballs and point-shooting. For the last few years I've been reading about how point-shooting is not real or effective. Perhaps this will open up the market on it. Cost: FREE!!! If you can catch a baseball in a glove, you can learn to point shoot.

[UWone77]

Glad I invested in Mk 1 eyeballs and point-shooting. For the last few years I've been reading about how point-shooting is not real or effective. Perhaps this will open up the market on it. Cost: FREE!!! If you can catch a baseball in a glove, you can learn to point shoot.

So you don't shoot with sights? Those cost money too. ;)

[DUX]

So you don't shoot with sights? Those cost money too. ;)

I just want you to think I'm cool, ok? Is it so wrong to want to be loved, admired, and develop an industry teaching people things they probably don't need to learn and selling products they think do something for them, but probably don't? :)

[UWone77]

I just want you to think I'm cool, ok? Is it so wrong to want to be loved, admired, and develop an industry teaching people things they probably don't need to learn and selling products they think do something for them, but probably don't? :)

This post made my head hurt.

[DUX]

This post made my head hurt.

Not my intent. I apologize.

[Eric]

Glad I invested in Mk 1 eyeballs and point-shooting. Point shooting is a valid technique in limited circumstances, but can't compare to an optic (holographic or red dot) at distance, with a reduced size target or from less than ideal shooting positions.

[Eric]

Apparently there's a class action lawsuit settlement (http://www.fostersettlement.com/) related to this.

If you previously received a refund from EOTech for a Holographic Weapon Sight (“HWS”), you will automatically receive a $22.50 voucher toward the purchase of a new EOTech product.

Swell. So a $22.50 voucher toward an EOTech at MSRP. As usual, the attorneys win. The plaintiffs attorney's name is Dollar (no, really).

[Jerry R]

Shown is the back of a postcard I received today. I appears you can still receive a full refund if you wish to turn in your EOTech.
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3087&d=1491595216