Scope question

[Jerry R]

Looking at a couple of 1-6x24 scopes and wondering if anyone has experience with either or both.

The first may be a little tough to find users - New for 2016 Leupold VX-6 Multigun. It is a SFP listing for $1.099.99 with the Firedot reticle - that is the one I am used to on the Mark AR Mod-1 1.5-4 I'm using now.

Screen capture from Leupold's web site:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Internet%20Screen%20Captures/2-6-2016%205-35-57%20PM_zps5jwnfl81.jpg~original

The other is an SWFA SS HD 1-6x24 FFP. Lists for $999.95 and has an interesting reticle. Since it is FFP, this particular reticle changes rather dramatically in my opinion.

At 1x it is almost a circle dot - screen capture from their web site:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Internet%20Screen%20Captures/SWFA%20at%201x_zpss0ju97da.jpg~original

In Bing images - the circle appears to be only slightly larger than the EOTech circle dot. Screen capture from Bing Images (with reticle illuminated):

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Internet%20Screen%20Captures/2-6-2016%205-31-29%20PM_zpsgbjbmrtd.jpg~original

At 6x, the ring goes away and the reticle becomes a little busy - another screen capture from their web site:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Internet%20Screen%20Captures/SWFA%20at%206x_zpsijwxlhm3.jpg~original

I have not had an opportunity to use a FFP scope, and must admit I'm a little intrigued by it. By the same token, I am a big fan of Leupold - good scopes for the money and great customer service in my experience.

I have a long time to think this over, and wanted some input from you guys.

I'm specifically looking for a true 1x and want a 1-6x24. $1,400 would be my top end on price. Thoughts on either of these, or are there any others I should consider in this price range?

One (slight) concern is they are both BDC designed for 5.56 - I will be running this on a 308. I will just have to learn the marks.

[voodoo_man]

If bdc is something you absolutely require then a good 556 bdc reticle will work, leupold is about the cheapest brand id get, moving upward to USO.

As for best true 1x, z6i is is awesome.

[alamo5000]

I don't know anything at all about either scope but just by looking at the pics you put up I wouldn't even think twice. I would go for the second one.

I wouldn't bat an eye at it. I am basing that solely on the reticle alone.

If you are shooting a .308 tell us more about your intended use for the rifle. A .308 will be a good shooter out to about 800 yards after that it drops off pretty fast. I have done groups several times at 1000 yards with a .308 bolt gun and I regularly shoot long range stuff...

I can get to 800 yards with a 4x scope but other people might not have stellar vision or whatever. A 6x scope will only be marginally better for the zoom wise out at those ranges... 6-800 yards... Don't get me wrong, it will be better but it will only be marginally better when it comes to real world shooting at distance.

Unless you are going to completely geek out on it like I do on things then you would be much better served using a longer scope such as a 2.5-10 or even more.

The reticle on the bottom one can be dialed up to be as accurate as you can shoot it and it's not tied to any one specific caliber. An MRAD is an MRAD. An MOA is an MOA. It also depends if you are going to dial in your drop and windage into the scope or are are you going to use the Kentucky method and just adjust by moving the gun around? It's preference but for me I have grown accustomed to dialing in what MOA I want and then making small adjustments as needed.

On a .308 I kind of question the utility of a 1x option. Odds are you won't be plinking at 50 yards and if you did the donut on the bottom one should be more than enough although it doesn't say how big the donut is at 1x... hulking around a .308 to get on target to truly make use of a 1x in my opinion means you are one bad ass mofo who has way more brute strength than me. Don't get me wrong it can be done, but it's not like you are going to be swinging around a 11.5 SBR.

Personally I think you are limiting yourself greatly by trying to stick with a 1-6x on a .308. A 2.5-10x would be a much better option especially if you are shooting prone or off a bipod or a rest or anything like that. Vortex even makes a 4-16x FFP that in my opinion would be much better.

I just wonder more about how you plan to shoot and what kind of setup you want to compliment.

Depending on what your plans are a 4x would be plenty WIDE enough field of view for that caliber at 100 yards. But if you want a wider field of view they have the 2.5-10 as well.

[DeviantLogic]

If it was me, I'd be looking at the Vortex Razor Gen II. I love FFP scopes, but I'd stick with SFP on a 1-6x.

[Josh S.]

I have to agree with alamo on this one. It depends on what you're planning on using the rifle for but in most cases a 2.5-10x, 1.8-10x, 3-12x, etc would be better suited for a .308. I don't have any personal experience with it but the Vortex Gen II Razor 1-6x24 oughta be worth a look. USO also offers a 1-8x27 which retails for $1495 so you should be able to find one new/very lightly used for well under $1400. The USO would get my vote due to the wider magnification range, and well....it's USO lol.

Regarding FFP scopes...I'm not sure you would have this issue with a 1-6x but I know from 10x upward, if you have a pretty thick reticle, the reticle will cover up the bullseye on paper targets and make it hard to shoot for tight groups. Also some FFP scopes will tunnel at lower magnification, that is the reticle will sort of get pushed away and become almost unusable. Just a couple things to watch for any time you purchase a FFP scope.

[BoilerUp]

No experience with either. The only thing I've really worked with close to this category is the Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24.

But since this is the internet, I'm not going to let my lack of personal experience prevent me from stating my opinions. :)

For one, I wouldn't spend the money for FFP on a 1-6x. This is based on having a 3-10x FFP optic and realizing that the holdovers are too small to be useful much below 8x. I'm thinking 16x is about the minimum top end magnification where I'd consider it worth the cost. I'd also have a hard time dropping that much cash on a SWFA scope to begin with, but the reticle seems a bit gimmiky to me.

If you know you like the FireDot, then the VX-6 seems like a safe bet. Personally, I'd probably go for the VX-6 w/ the CM-R^2 reticle. And I agree that Leupold's customer service should put them at the top of the list for consideration, along with Vortex. The Razor is in your budget, too, but I'm sure you've figured that out already.

Steiner has a nice 1-5x w/ 7.62 BDC that I've read many positive comments on: http://swfa.com/Steiner-1-5x24-T5Xi-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P82609.aspx

All that said, if I was spending that amount of cash for a 1x variable, I'd also be looking closely at the NightForce NXS 1-4. I just don't think there is much you can do at 6x that you couldn't also do at 4x so I'd want to make sure my money was going into the quality of the glass first, features I want second, and magnification range third.

Of course, this is all just based on my limited experience so far and I reserve the right to change my mind once I realize I was wrong.

[alamo5000]

For one, I wouldn't spend the money for FFP on a 1-6x. This is based on having a 3-10x FFP optic and realizing that the holdovers are too small to be useful much below 8x.

BINGO! You nailed it.

That also calls into question if you are as a shooter going to be holding over using the reticle or if you are going to dial in your adjustments using the adjustment knobs.

[Jerry R]

Great input - much appreciated; some things I had not considered, and some options I was not aware of. Think I will eliminate the FFP options and widen the search in the SFP arena.

The only 308 I have now is the Sig 716. It has a Leupold 6.5x20 on it for distance work. I am very happy with the Sig.

Now, the reason I posed this question ... I have my SOT "on the hunt" for another Sig 716; their CQB version with a 12" barrel. My thoughts are that a 1x6 would be a good fit for a 308 SBR. I am already tooled up and reloading 308, and believe this is be a better option (for me) that starting a new caliber - like 300BO. I zero glass at 100 yards. I wrote a "click-up" program that I plug ballistics into after chronographing the load-du-jour, and use that with a laser range finder to adjust elevation at unknown ranges. If steel is at a known distance, I just dial it in. That's my main reason for looking at turret style scopes for this platform. Not really concerned with BDC reticles, I don't see this old fart in a situation where speed on target is critical (certainly would not use a 308 SBR in a 3 gun competition). A standard fine duplex would suit me, but not seeing that option these days in the variable range I am looking at. I will definitely check out the models mentioned above; but really want a true 1x on the low end. I see potential as a very good hammer for close work.

By the time one is found, then Form-3'ed to the SOT, and then Form-4'ed to me, I have plenty of time to look at glass options. Hopefully, I can get the Form-4 in process before 41F is effective.

Again, thanks for the input.

[Stone]

Since you are just window shopping at this point I would start by looking at the higher end 1x6's then work your way down to figure out if you are truly willing to settle for less or should get the scope you really want. Kahles16i 1-6x24 , Elcan Spector DR, Swarovski Z6i 1-6x24. The Kahles and Swaro have several different reticle choices as well. By the way GB has your rifle:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=541275684#PIC

[Jerry R]

Thanks Stone, will definitely take a look at those options.

I have a GunBroker account, and saw that sale item. Their Buy it Now price is about $180 over MSRP. Gunsmith's Gallery is my SOT and they said they have "several" Sig Distributors that carry Class-III items. They are supposed to be shopping for the best deal and will call me Monday afternoon. No bids on the GB item, they may list it again after this auction closes. I would rather not pay above MSRP and then add a stamp to the cost also. But, we'll see what the SOT says tomorrow.

Also looking at the U.S. Optics 1-8x24. MSRP is pretty close to my top end, with one new on eBay for a little less than MSRP. Same FFP issue though.

[BoilerUp]

Sounds like you know what you want, but I suggest you really look into 6.8 SPC. A 6.8 SBR, like a LWRC Six8 or Barrett REC7, seems a lot more useful/practical than a shorty .308 which is pretty much a range toy IMO.

[alamo5000]

I found this... Pretty good info. I am not done reading yet but so far it's food for thought.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/daniel-zimmerman/practical-applications-short-barreled-precision-rifle/

[Jerry R]

Sounds like you know what you want, but I suggest you really look into 6.8 SPC. A 6.8 SBR, like a LWRC Six8 or Barrett REC7, seems a lot more useful/practical than a shorty .308 which is pretty much a range toy IMO.

Thanks, I sort of agree with the range toy aspect of the SBR 308, but at my age, range toys are all I have. [BD] - I love the 6.8. I have two LWRCi M6A3 units in 6.8 - one 16" and one 10.5". Both are exceptional. The SBR is a superb little package. Push come to shove, it would be my Go-To. Older picture below; EOTech returned, and an Aimpoint PRO is on it now.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i106/pdogkilr/Firearms/NFA%20Pictures/IMG_1644SBRLeftSideReceivers300PPISized1024.jpg~or iginal

[alamo5000]

I sort of agree with the range toy aspect of the SBR 308,

Make sure to read that article I just posted. He's good.

[Jerry R]

Make sure to read that article I just posted. He's good.

Will do, checking it now.

Edit: Not just interesting, but also a fun read. Dan has some good info - specially the Lapua 170 FMJ loading; definitely going to find some of that. I primarily load Hornady's 165 SST and 168 BTHP over 45.2 of BLC-2. That pretty much duplicates the velocity I'm getting out of the Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grainers in the 16" Sig. But I digress ... thanks again.

[alamo5000]

Will do, checking it now.

Edit: Not just interesting, but also a fun read. Dan has some good info - specially the Lapua 170 FMJ loading; definitely going to find some of that. I primarily load Hornady's 165 SST and 168 BTHP over 45.2 of BLC-2. That pretty much duplicates the velocity I'm getting out of the Federal Gold Medal Match 168 grainers in the 16" Sig. But I digress ... thanks again.

It was a very interesting read. I had some similar conversations with other people before when we were just talking shop and BSing around. Inevitably I bring up my long range habit and the first thing people say is 'you must have a 24" barrel'... to which I always reply...'nope, 16 inches is all'... I have constantly gotten befuddled looks from that alone.

For some reason people think that a .223 bullet can't reach 800 yards out of anything but a long barrel... not true. You will just have different adjustments is all. At 800 yards with my .223 the adjustment is 38 MOA. If I had a long barrel it might be 34 MOA. Is there a difference? Yes of course... but the cartridge becomes not very effective past that so more is just overkill.

Practical application matters a whole lot. What is the ranges you will shoot at? 300 yards? 500 yards? 800 yards? Yeah if you want to hit a grand with a .308 a longer barrel might matter but 800 and in a 16" gun works just fine. Picking the right tool for the job matters. If you are shooting 2-300 yards max a giant barrel becomes more prohibitive than it is helpful... Just saying...

After reading that article it makes me want a .308! LOL I will get there just too many irons in the fire right now to fork out the cash.

[Jerry R]

After reading that article it makes me want a .308! LOL I will get there just too many irons in the fire right now to fork out the cash.

Understood. The Sig 716 is two tons of fun to shoot, and being a piston cleanup is pretty easy. The Lantac Dragon is a bit much on the 16" barrel though; fireball completely obliterates the view every shot. I'm holding a BattleComp 51.30 for it. When the AAC 762SD gets out of jail I want to do a night shoot comparison between the two muzzle devices. Don't really want to swap them until the can comes home.

[BoilerUp]

Thanks, I sort of agree with the range toy aspect of the SBR 308, but at my age, range toys are all I have. [BD] - I love the 6.8. I have two LWRCi M6A3 units in 6.8 - one 16" and one 10.5". Both are exceptional. The SBR is a superb little package. Push come to shove, it would be my Go-To. Older picture below; EOTech returned, and an Aimpoint PRO is on it now.

Preaching to the choir, then, wasn't I?!?! Nice M6.

Alamo, the TTAG article is interesting, but he spends a lot of time talking around velocity variability and kind of misses the whole point of "ceteris paribus". His views are also predicated on rolling your own ammo:


The thing with shorter barrels is that you have to be mindful of what components you use to load them. And handload you must to get the best performance.

[GriffonSec]

We just got off the phone, but I'm still on the USO 8s, 1-8. Perfect for that SBR.

Then, bring it up here, and as a "responsible person", I'll take good care of it for you. :D

[Josh S.]

I'm pretty sure it would put it out of your price range, but I think it's important to note that you can get the USO SR-8s with a dual focal plane option. It uses beam splitter technology so instead of the illumination being part of the reticle itself, it's projected between the ocular lens and the reticle and allows you to use it as a SFP scope when the illumination is on. It's also my understanding that since the 8s only uses partial illumination (circle with center dot), you can still utilize the FFP reticle even when the illumination is on.

[DutyUse]

I'd been looking hard at that leupy 1-6 multigun myself for a 12.5 sbr but damn that z6i vdm posted is amazing.

[mustangfreek]

Don't forget the PEPR.........[:D].....

[Josh S.]

Just a heads up, there's a reputable member over on Snipershide selling a "like brand new" Vortex Gen II in a Bobro mount for $1300 shipped. You may be able to talk him down a little bit too.

[Jerry R]

Just a heads up, there's a reputable member over on Snipershide selling a "like brand new" Vortex Gen II in a Bobro mount for $1300 shipped. You may be able to talk him down a little bit too.

Thanks Josh - I will definitely take a look.

[Jerry R]

Okay Guys, just to close this thread ...

This morning I purchased a US Optics SR-8S 1-8x with the FFP C2 reticle. New, unopened, on eBay for $1,399 with free shipping (they accepted a "best offer"). Managed to get my price point and an extra 2x on the high end. [:D]

I intend to use an MI Cantilever QD mount for it. I need to wait until it arrives so I can measure the eyepiece housing. I found the specs on the ocular lens diameter, but not the housing diameter. I want to be sure it clears the rear BUIS. Fortunately, MI offers two heights - I just need to know which one to order. I found a couple of scope height calculators online that I can use once I know the diameter.

Now we wait six months for the rifle to get out of jail - about 20 days left on the Form-3, then we Form-4 it. Once Form-3 "extradition" is complete, I will post a couple of mug-shots. [BD]

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

[voodoo_man]

Okay Guys, just to close this thread ...

This morning I purchased a US Optics SR-8S 1-8x with the FFP C2 reticle. New, unopened, on eBay for $1,399 with free shipping (they accepted a "best offer"). Managed to get my price point and an extra 2x on the high end. [:D]

I intend to use an MI Cantilever QD mount for it. I need to wait until it arrives so I can measure the eyepiece housing. I found the specs on the ocular lens diameter, but not the housing diameter. I want to be sure it clears the rear BUIS. Fortunately, MI offers two heights - I just need to know which one to order. I found a couple of scope height calculators online that I can use once I know the diameter.

Now we wait six months for the rifle to get out of jail - about 20 days left on the Form-3, then we Form-4 it. Once Form-3 "extradition" is complete, I will post a couple of mug-shots. [BD]

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

USO 1-8 is the shizzle.

[Josh S.]

Okay Guys, just to close this thread ...

This morning I purchased a US Optics SR-8S 1-8x with the FFP C2 reticle. New, unopened, on eBay for $1,399 with free shipping (they accepted a "best offer"). Managed to get my price point and an extra 2x on the high end. [:D]

I intend to use an MI Cantilever QD mount for it. I need to wait until it arrives so I can measure the eyepiece housing. I found the specs on the ocular lens diameter, but not the housing diameter. I want to be sure it clears the rear BUIS. Fortunately, MI offers two heights - I just need to know which one to order. I found a couple of scope height calculators online that I can use once I know the diameter.

Now we wait six months for the rifle to get out of jail - about 20 days left on the Form-3, then we Form-4 it. Once Form-3 "extradition" is complete, I will post a couple of mug-shots. [BD]

Thanks for the input - much appreciated.

Somehow I completely missed the update. Congrats on the USO, Jerry! The SR-8S is definitely on the "Want List", along with pretty much every other scope USO offers, plus a few more they don't "offer".

[DUX]

It's cool to see 1-4/6 scopes making a bit of a resurgence in popularity. The German #4 as well. I reckon the OP has decided by now but I used a Weaver 1.5x6. Natchez has them for 325 bucks. Heavy but very clear. I don't do a lot of scope shooting but when I do it serves my needs. It works on my AR's and I've tried it on an FN-FAL. Solid.