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Creeky73
20 March 2016, 13:06
hey guys, long time since I posted here, hope everyone is doing well.

So, as the title states, question about bcg's. I'm aware of the things to look for in basic mil-spec bolts and carriers, but I am thinking about buying a new one, and getting one either chrome or nickel boron. I was hoping someone could school me as to whether one is preferred over the other as far as wear resistance, ease of maintenance, etc, or if there are some things about either process that I should know/consider before making my decision. I am also wondering about the Young National Match carriers, and whether these provide any further benefit aside from the chroming that I should consider. I also want it to work well with an A5 buffer system, so I thought I would mention that on the outside chance that it might make some kind of difference.

thanks

alamo5000
20 March 2016, 13:32
My opinion based on some experience and on reading here...

The coated, nickel, chrome or whatever you want to call it... they tend to stain after extended use so that snazzy color that attracted you to the carrier in the first place won't last forever. I could be wrong about that though.

I've also heard that those types of BCG's claim to be easier to clean and are supposedly self lubricating to some degree... but in that same note, they will get discolored as I said, and they supposedly tend to not hold the actual lube of your choice as well as others.

I also think all these whiz bang BCGs are not going to add to the accuracy of your rifle a bit. At best you will be able to tell people you have one.

Me personally I don't have a whole ton of experience but I prefer the phosphate ones myself. I also asked similar questions and the type of material they use to make them matters. Carpenter steel is easier to machine and work and heat treat and all that... there are other metals that will also work provided they are treated properly. That said those other metals supposedly are a bit more finicky as to heat treatment or whatever.

Creeky73
20 March 2016, 14:19
My opinion based on some experience and on reading here...

The coated, nickel, chrome or whatever you want to call it... they tend to stain after extended use so that snazzy color that attracted you to the carrier in the first place won't last forever. I could be wrong about that though.

I've also heard that those types of BCG's claim to be easier to clean and are supposedly self lubricating to some degree... but in that same note, they will get discolored as I said, and they supposedly tend to not hold the actual lube of your choice as well as others.

I also think all these whiz bang BCGs are not going to add to the accuracy of your rifle a bit. At best you will be able to tell people you have one.

Me personally I don't have a whole ton of experience but I prefer the phosphate ones myself. I also asked similar questions and the type of material they use to make them matters. Carpenter steel is easier to machine and work and heat treat and all that... there are other metals that will also work provided they are treated properly. That said those other metals supposedly are a bit more finicky as to heat treatment or whatever.

so here's the thing: the color is actually not any part of the reason why I'm thinking of getting one. I had always surmised that the reason you would get this would be the supposed ease of maintenance and the possibility of being able to run dirty after a point that a standard bcg would foul to the point of failure. Now, I'm definitely aware that there are people who will get these for no other reason than it looks pretty and ups the final price they paid for their gun, but that's actually not my intention at all. If you're gonna tell me that these things don't aid in ease of maintenance or dependability/reliability one iota, then I would have to think twice about getting one :)

edit: this is also why the discoloring effect would have no bearing on my decision. If it actually made the gun...ahem "better"...I could easily live with the stains popping up.

UWone77
20 March 2016, 14:41
I'm not saying you should get one, but I've got 3 Young Manufacturing Chrome BCG's. One I used on a duty gun for 5+ years. As far as cleaning goes, they work as advertised. Literally wiped it down and it was clean. Sometimes, the bolt tail would need a good scrubbing, but it never caked on like on a phosphate.

For the money are they worth it? Only you can decide that. I usually get NiB carriers the last several years, only because they are basically the same price as phosphate ones.

alamo5000
20 March 2016, 15:28
From what it sounds like the only real 'benefit' would be just being able to wipe it off a little bit easier than phosphate.

If you are going to run a BCG until it fouls up and causes a failure due to not cleaning it...that sounds to me like it would take a lot of shooting. If you shoot suppressed it would be a lot. If not suppressed it would be even more.

Sounds to me based on UW's comment that the net overall benefit would be a slight bit more ease in cleaning it as in routine maintenance. You just have to figure if it's worth X amount of dollars for that. But at the end of the day you're still going to have to clean it sometime or somewhere on a fairly regular basis.

My opinion would be if you can get a reasonable deal then why not give it a shot. But if they are trying to charge you an extra hundred bucks for it... maybe not.

alamo5000
20 March 2016, 15:48
http://soldiersystems.net/2015/05/09/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-14/

"I got a new upper from BCM last year, and I wanted to see how well/long the Lucas Extreme Duty Gun Oil would work with just a single application. Since around November of last year I have put the rifle through some pretty hard use and put somewhere around 30K rounds through it: 7 classes in deserts, 4 classes in the rain, and a bunch of time in my pelican case that has dust, sand, debris, etc. in it. Well, last week it finally malfunctioned for the first time. I got the gun pretty hot several times and it got to where the carbon in the bolt seized a bit and wouldn’t let the firing pin go forward fast enough.I pulled the BCG out and put some more Lucas oil on everything and went back to shooting. I AM NOT going to clean this gun, I’m gonna keep on shooting it and see what happens should be interesting!"

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IMG_6234.jpg

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IMG_6235.jpg

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/IMG_6236.jpg


The premise that you will shoot it until just the BCG is fouled up....makes you go hmmm... 30,000 rounds with no cleaning?

I can't tell if that is phosphate or not, but I don't think it matters at that point.

Creeky73
20 March 2016, 17:34
it probably doesn't matter at all. but I figure if I am going to get a new bgc, I might as well explore all the options and wherefores about it, right? And, like was stated, it's not like the price doubles going from basic mil spec to chromed or nickel boron, so...no I probably will not go thousands of rounds without cleaning the bcg but it would be awesome to know you had one that you could potentially abuse that way in a pinch, no?

Former11B
20 March 2016, 19:01
I have several types of BCGs: NiB, Chrome, and regular phosphate. The NiB was the only one to tarnish under heat/use, but in no way did it diminish the "slippery" coating. The NiB and chrome BCGs are the easiest of the two to clean, and see the most suppressed use. Nothing wrong at all with the phosphate BCGs I have, but they just don't clean as easily

Joelski
20 March 2016, 19:58
My vote is nitride/melonite. It's nearly as hard as chrome, nearly as slick as NiB, and cost is in between Phosphate and chrome.

UWone77
20 March 2016, 20:08
My vote is nitride/melonite. It's nearly as hard as chrome, nearly as slick as NiB, and cost is in between Phosphate and chrome.

Get a Fathom BCG from Guy. So far I've liked the results from my Fathom Standard carrier.

Aragorn
20 March 2016, 21:31
People say "wiz-bang" as if it's a bad thing.

Also people who call something "wiz-bang" USUALLY haven't actually used it.

NiB is badass. I've seen a phosphate bolt rust during the same day in rain, and it was lubed fairly heavily in Slip2000 because we KNEW we were gonna be out with it all day in the rain. Never had it happen with NiB. Corrosion resistance aside its obviously super slick. Go ahead and oil up your favorite phosphate bcg as wet or dry as you please, then with the upper seperate from the lower, retract the CH part way, then tilt the the receive back until the BCG tries to slide out and escape the upper. Try it also with a dry NiB. VERY little tilt and the NiB BCG will be smoothly and rapidly sliding like it WANTS out. A phosphate requires MUCH more tilt, and then is still lazy in its actual movement.

What I'm getting at is friction. A completely dry NiB BCG has a much lower coefficient of friction than any lubed up phosphate BCG.

Plus, again, it's WAY more corrosion resistant. Plus PLUS it'll still hold oil so now you have compounded interest.

Phosphate is lame. Nib, Ionbond, Melonite, NP3 are all way better in terms of corrosion resistance and friction, which really, what else do you need out of a BCG finish? So what if NiB gets a patina? You still get the attributes which matter and now your gun looks like you actually use it.

Failzero and Fathom Arms are the way to go.

Oh, right, and they clean way easier.

bzdog
20 March 2016, 23:42
From what I've heard, nickel teflon has better lubricity over time than nickel boron.

-john

Slippers
21 March 2016, 04:22
Once phosphate bolt carriers have worn in they're slick as snot. I can tilt my uppers forward and back just a few degrees and have the carrier slide back and forth.

Ask dstrbdmedic about my bcm upper he has on loan with 5k+ cycles on it. :)

Nothing against alternative coatings, just never been unhappy with phosphate.

Tyrannosaur
21 March 2016, 04:53
Fathom is the way to go... slick, never fails you and it looks badass. I have a few thousand through two and haven't ever had an issue. Buy once cry once (although the price is amazing too)

SINNER
21 March 2016, 05:31
FWIW I have had 2 bolts break in my life in a 5.56 weapon and both were NiB. It's a known fact that the increased hardness of NiB causes parts to become more brittle.

Phosphate or black Nitrocarburizing are much better choices IMO. The Fathom BCG's are top notch.

mtdawg169
21 March 2016, 05:38
There are some real differences in coatings. All of my carriers are phosphate. I've used hard chromed and NiB in the past. To me, hard chrome, nitride or NP3 are the way to go. NiB stains, reportedly because it actually retains carbon in its surface pores. Microslick wears off. And TiN doesn't seem to offer anything better for the cost. Plus, it's gold.. No thanks.

I'm really not sure why hard chrome seems to have fallen out of favor, even though it's tried and true and holds up extremely well. A couple of years ago, I saw a decades old Colt M16 carrier group that was chromed and had untold thousands of rounds on it. It was slick as snot and the only thing wrong with the carrier was a damaged gas key.

Another excellent option, but hard to find, is ion bond, which is a PVD coating.

Stone
21 March 2016, 07:42
Mystic black from Cryptic coatings is another great option.

SINNER
21 March 2016, 07:53
Mystic black is just a brand name for a DLC PVD coating. Same as Ionbond and a few other trade names.

Joelski
21 March 2016, 10:05
I prefer succubus tears.

Stone
21 March 2016, 11:22
Mystic black is just a brand name for a DLC PVD coating. Same as Ionbond and a few other trade names.

True and obvious.

Aragorn
21 March 2016, 12:13
The common denominator here seems to be...

Everyone likes Fathom [:D]

DUX
21 March 2016, 12:55
So long as I've used anti-tilt followers in magazines, an extractor upgrade, an H-Buffer or more (in a carbine), and LSA lube (the original M-16 lube), I haven't had much of a problem no matter what the carrier was coated in. I'm a big believer in pragmatics over technology for the AR, but I'm in no way an expert. It's just been my experience.

Jerry R
21 March 2016, 13:02
NiB stains, reportedly because it actually retains carbon in its surface pores.

And stains badly if running suppressed. Ask me how I know [BD]

Creeky73
21 March 2016, 14:22
The common denominator here seems to be...

Everyone likes Fathom [:D]

I was noticing that myself...I checked out the video on these at Rainier, and of course it looks impressive...if you guys are backing it up, it's probably a safe bet...however, I've been somewhat out of the loop on all the latest stuff in the AR world the past couple of years and its weird to hear so many people recommending a brand that I don't remember hearing of at all. But playing around on Rainier reveals all kinds of names I don't recall, so....for what it's worth.

SINNER
21 March 2016, 15:19
I could not even guess how many BCG's I have between built weapons and ones I've stock piled. Fathom are some of the nicest I've used. I have one of their standard carriers in a 7.62x39 build. While another company's NiB bolt is heavily stained and worn through in spots the carrier is hard to tell from new with a quick wipe down. Nitrocarburizing is pretty hard to beat.





869

alamo5000
21 March 2016, 15:26
I was noticing that myself...I checked out the video on these at Rainier, and of course it looks impressive...if you guys are backing it up, it's probably a safe bet...however, I've been somewhat out of the loop on all the latest stuff in the AR world the past couple of years and its weird to hear so many people recommending a brand that I don't remember hearing of at all. But playing around on Rainier reveals all kinds of names I don't recall, so....for what it's worth.

Not everyone on here agrees all the time but any time you get 4 or 5 people here doing just that (agreeing on something) you can take it to the bank.

A WEVO stamp of approval should be coveted.

Joelski
21 March 2016, 17:52
The common denominator here seems to be...

Everyone likes Fathom [:D]

Or AXTS.

SINNER
22 March 2016, 04:34
True and obvious.

True yes, but not obvious that you knew that by your post.

Brahmzy
22 March 2016, 05:55
Actually Mystic Black is the only PLASMA PACVD coated BCG I know of.
Most other times when you see IONBond, it's the standard PVD, of which I have quite a few.
I've got quite a few of the V7 Ti IonBonded carriers and they've been doing great. Still look new and have function flawlessly. Would love to try a Mystic Black but finding a black Ti version in stock is next to impossible.

SINNER
25 March 2016, 05:49
Not certain where you are getting your information at but it is incorrect. PACVD actually stands for Plasma Assisted Chemical Vapor Deposition. No such thing as "Plasma PACVD". The Mystic black is a high vacuum CVD process. The Ionbond is a PACVD process that is a superior application technique to the high vacuum deposition used by Mystic.

Not a single coating used today for firearms was developed strictly for firearms. These application techniques we pioneered and patented in the 50's during the development of semiconductors. GE, Raytheon and the US government hold almost all patents for these coating types. They appeared in the Motorsport industry decades before they filtered into use in the firearms industry.

And if you are reading Mystic's site for technical information, don't.

"Parts are sealed in an air tight chamber that is pumped down several atmospheres. Then a high-frequency voltage is applied and gases containing significant amounts of sp3 are introduced. This creates carbon and hydrogen atoms that form a dense coating on the parts."

Pumping down a vacuum chamber to even 1 atomsphere is physically impossible so to claim several shows a total lack of knowledge about what they are doing.

Aragorn
25 March 2016, 16:29
Actually Mystic Black is the only PLASMA PACVD coated BCG I know of.
Most other times when you see IONBond, it's the standard PVD, of which I have quite a few.
I've got quite a few of the V7 Ti IonBonded carriers and they've been doing great. Still look new and have function flawlessly. Would love to try a Mystic Black but finding a black Ti version in stock is next to impossible.

Not to hijack but what setup are you running your V7 Ti carriers with? I've got mine on a 17.3" barrel with adjustable gas, a T1 (standard carbine weight) buffer and a Springco "white" (standard carbine weight) spring. My gas is nearly full open and I'm just waiting to have a problem. None to speak of thus far, though it's still on a pretty low round count and so far it's only been fed 5.56 loads. I just DON'T have the faith in it of a full weight system..

Brahmzy
25 March 2016, 19:38
Not to hijack but what setup are you running your V7 Ti carriers with? I've got mine on a 17.3" barrel with adjustable gas, a T1 (standard carbine weight) buffer and a Springco "white" (standard carbine weight) spring. My gas is nearly full open and I'm just waiting to have a problem. None to speak of thus far, though it's still on a pretty low round count and so far it's only been fed 5.56 loads. I just DON'T have the faith in it of a full weight system..

I haven't had a hint of issues with 3 556 Ti carriers and 1 762 Ti carrier.
The 556 carriers are on a 14.5 Middy, 10.5, 8.5 300BLK and the 308 is a 16" barrel. SLR adj blocks on all running 100% reliably with weak ammo (Bronze). Very highly recommended. I'm running light buffers and Sprinco and JP polished extra power springs. I've ran em pretty filthy and very little lube with the weak ammo while I was dialing in the gas, looking to get failures. No issues.

If you want to test reliability, run a bunch of PMC bronze, barely lubed, dirty, in the cold - that'll tell you if you need to change something. If it survives that, you're pretty much gtg, certainly with full power 556.

Aragorn
25 March 2016, 20:10
I haven't had a hint of issues with 3 556 Ti carriers and 1 762 Ti carrier.
The 556 carriers are on a 14.5 Middy, 10.5, 8.5 300BLK and the 308 is a 16" barrel. SLR adj blocks on all running 100% reliably with weak ammo (Bronze). Very highly recommended. I'm running light buffers and Sprinco and JP polished extra power springs. I've ran em pretty filthy and very little lube with the weak ammo while I was dialing in the gas, looking to get failures. No issues.

If you want to test reliability, run a bunch of PMC bronze, barely lubed, dirty, in the cold - that'll tell you if you need to change something. If it survives that, you're pretty much gtg, certainly with full power 556.

Yeah, SLR gas block on mine as well. Part of my concern stems from the fact that the barrel is already ported specifically for 5.56 for use with a full weigh BCG and standard spring and buffer, and the manufacturer recommends against anything weaker than full on 5.56 due to this.

Which is undoubtedly why I'm running only one click from full open.

I need to get it out and see if it'll lock back on the last round unsupported with some pressure on the mag, kinda as if it was being used as a monopod. Also see how it works in in roll over prone with gravity working against smooth feeding.

Won't know until I have a chance to get it out again, I just may be asking a lot out of such a small port. My back up plan is to get a 16" barrel with a more normal port if I can't get this upper to act right. Or just build a new upper.

Brahmzy
26 March 2016, 07:53
^^ I've got other rifles/barrels I've had to run the adj GB wide open on. Zero port headroom for tweaking. Still need to go back to a std block on these when I get time.
Unlike some, I prefer a larger port that gives me flexibility to run whatever ammo I want to run in any condition and dial down the gas if needed. I'm not opposed to these newer rock-solid adj blocks. They just work, there's no maintenance and they allow YOU the control to adjust stuff instead of being at the mercy of a manufacturers port diameter decision. Others disagree, some very strongly. Some say adj GBs of any kind have no place on a 'serious' rifle. I disagree. I've got plenty of 'serious' rifles doing just fine with adj GBs.
If they caused problems, I wouldn't be using them. Some of gas blocks years ago were crap. I tried many years ago and gave up for years until the first Syracs started shipping. Then I was hooked.

UWone77
27 March 2016, 07:58
I just looked up the Young BCG at Rainier. $245 for the National Match, and $185 for the standard Young Chrome. I didn't realize they were still that expensive. For that kind of cash I'd just stick with the Fathom or get yourself a well known NiB BCG.