Honest Question about the Vietnam LRRPs

[DUX]

My old man is a Volunteer (i.e. pre-Ranger) Vietnam Era LRRP. He's 70 now, and I've been talking to him about maybe doing a book. Is there any interest out there in the pre-Ranger LRRPs? Thank you for any feedback.

[Jerry R]

I was a "Era" Volunteer Navy from 1965 to 1978 - last active tour ended in 1972. But I was not in Vietnam. The fictional books about The War, and The Veterans, have been done and over done. Not a lot of interest these days in those types of stories. Current generation just doesn't seem to care about that section of history; fictional or factual.

Having said that, a first-person autobiographical book that detailed his time in service - pre-combat / time in country / post-combat - could prove to be very interesting. There are a lot of people that served, then and now, that might be interested in not only his accomplishments, but also his perspective.

Even if it didn't hit a best-seller list, getting it published would certainly provide many emotional benefits to your Dad. Find an author willing to put it to paper, and let the interviews begin.

Sign me up for a copy.

[DUX]

Thank you for the feedback. For 44 years he told us all that he was "just a REMF typist" during Vietnam. Then I happened upon a photo labled 1st Cav. LRRPs and one of them looked very much like Dad. I was having beers with him and pulled out a print-off of it and showed him. His reaction was thus: "Where did you get this?" Turns out he was indeed a "typist" but on a PRQ-25 with a crypto unit attached to it, on a 4-man, pre-Ranger LRRP team. He says he told everyone he was typist to end the conversation whenever it came up. I don't think he want's to re-live or write about it, but he's getting on in years and I think what he knows may be valuable to some. I'm just testing the waters here. Thanks again.

[Battle Cock]

Thank you for the feedback. For 44 years he told us all that he was "just a REMF typist" during Vietnam. Then I happened upon a photo labled 1st Cav. LRRPs and one of them looked very much like Dad. I was having beers with him and pulled out a print-off of it and showed him. His reaction was thus: "Where did you get this?" Turns out he was indeed a "typist" but on a PRQ-25 with a crypto unit attached to it, on a 4-man, pre-Ranger LRRP team. He says he told everyone he was typist to end the conversation whenever it came up. I don't think he want's to re-live or write about it, but he's getting on in years and I think what he knows may be valuable to some. I'm just testing the waters here. Thanks again.

My great grandfather wrote an autobiography that he shared only with his family. I finally got my hands on it last year, and learned that we can trace our ancestry all the way back to the Mayflower. I wish i had more words of my ancestors to study. So even if your father writes a story that remains unpublished, it will still prove valuable to posterity as personal family history.

[DUX]

Thank you as well Battle Cock for the feedback. You may well be right about it. Maybe some things are best left unsaid. He's been a good father, and a quiet man his entire life. It may be best to keep it all close to home. He never got his CIB. I know that upsets him. He was 11th Cav. 3rd Squadron, 68-69. Volunteer.

[Battle Cock]

I've got an uncle who did his time as a LRRP and took a bullet to the head for his trouble. He doesn't talk about it much, but he's shared with me how much it changed his psyche and sense of morality. But he loved his time on a 4 man team and told me the worst part about Vietnam was leaving. I have no idea what unit he was in, but every time he decides to share even a little, I'm all ears.

[DUX]

The story of the Pre-Ranger LRRPs is one of the most neglected in my opinion. Many do not know it even exists. The Pre-Ranger LRRPs are the ones that forged the legend. The interaction with the SAS even more-so. Good on your uncle. I wish him a beer from a boot. (he will know) :)

[Former11B]

I'd read it. I served in 1st Cav and did some long range patrols in Iraq, bedding down/ making a hide and LP/OP during the day and then going to work at night. Seems like forever ago but it's only been a decade

[Thompson]

I didn't even know there was a predecessor to the LRRPs/LRPs; and the only books I've read thus far were autobiographies by LRRPs/LRPs (minus one or two).

... gotta love those PRCs.

But, I'd be definitely interested in reading about pre-LRRP/LRP days.

Makes me want to go read another LRRP/LRP book now.

[DUX]

Former 11B & Thompson, thank you for your kind feedback. As I understand it, the LRRPs were setup in Europe, then brought into 'Nam after some failures with Project Delta and the Kit Carson program. The SAS had been fighting in Malaysia so they were brought in through the Aussies to help train the LRRPs. They operated in 4-man teams. Later the general staff out of Long Binh became concerned with the level of autonomy given the LRRP teams and re-activated the Rangers to take over the LRRP program. Most of the original LRRPs rebelled against this and quit, and the history of the LRRPs became the history of the Rangers.

When my old man was in there was no Recondo School. It was "you bet your life" the minute your feet hit the dirt. He arrived 9th Infantry and was transferred to 44th Signal from the flight-line. After 2 months at Blackhorse in the Magic 7 como vans there, a man came in and asked for Volunteers. He was bored at the 44th so he raised his hand. Then he was assigned to assess Agent Orange damage in the jungle. He did call in one Arc Light strike on a target of opportunity. The rest I would have to sit down with him and get the blanks filled in. Thank you again for the feedback gents.

P.S. I should point out that General Patton, who commanded the 11th asked for permission to setup a LRRP program for his command and was told "no." He then went ahead and did it anyway. I think that may be why someone came in asking for Volunteers. The 11th wasn't supposed to have LRRPs, so they did it "under the radar." All of the above is what I remember him talking about that night over beers so I may not have the correct picture here. Please keep that in mind.

[DUX]

As I'm talking about this I'm remembering some other things. There is some really funny stuff too. They used to take a lot of Immodium so they wouldn't have to take a dump while they were out in the field. I remember him saying the screams from the latrine after they got back were blood curdling. LOL! Like birthing a small baby made out of hard poo. Also, they were given a beer ration, and the Army being the Army would inevitably deliver hot beer, but cold tomato juice. So they would mix the beer with the tomato juice to try and cool it off. It tasted awful, so they would take tobasco from their ration packets and make a poor mans bloody mary out of it.

Sorry, that just came flooding back to me so I thought I'd post it. Funny stuff. [:)]

[Uffdaphil]

Ah, hot beer brings back lots of memories. With the metallic taste from rusty old church-key cans. Somebody made a killing selling off that stock.

I remember seeing LRP over patches. Probably LRRP also, but the old noodle is foggy. After reading a number of accounts the words "Prairie Fire" always reminds me of those guys' bravery. A college pal became a LRP following months as an infantry medic. Much preferred the five man mission. They never lost a man.

[DUX]

Thank you for your comment Uffdaphil. Dad mentioned to me that they did not wear any patches or anything that would identify them. He said that any photos you've ever seen of LRRPs are most likely guys who screwed up. To be photographed was to be out of the program. The photo that I ran across was mis-labled as 1st Cav. He said it was the photo taken after the completion of his teams final mission, and he has no idea how it got released out to the internet.

[FortTom]

You're father's story sounds fascinating. But, since he chose to remain silent for many years, and was only "outed" about his true story and endeavors in Nam, with the discovery of an old photo, speaks volumes. My father did two tours in Nam, and rarely spoke about it, except an occasional funny experience he or friends had, usually associated with large volumes of beer. On the other hand, I've known many many Viet Nam vets, and they all differ in how or what they wish to discuss, or not too. One of my cousins, about 7 or 8 years older, was never the same after 'Nam.

Folks didn't know too much about PTSD, then. He did exceedingly well in the civilian world, completed his under and post grad work, got a really high paying gig with Ford, had all the toys, then commited suicide on his 59th birthday. His wife would eventually inform us that he had been working with a Psychiatrist for 10 or 15 years prior, out of his own pocket and in secrecy to avoid the "stigma" associated with that, and it was directly related to his tour.

My point is, some vet's would prefer not to re-live a nightmare they would like to forget, and if it were my dad, I might have suggested a book once, then let it go no matter how historically significant your dad's contributions were.

Thank your dad for his service, for me. Nam and Korean vets didn't get that simple "thank you", much.
FT

[DUX]

FortTom, thank you for the reply. You are of course quite correct and level-headed in your assessment. He doesn't want to talk about it. My motivation comes from hearing him lament that he, and a lot of the others never got their CIB. He's not one to really care about medals or commendations, but for some reason that single one matters to him. Being that they were all volunteers taken from various other outfits, the guys drawn from officially "non combat" units (In my fathers case a crypto-radio specialist with escape and evasion school training) were not eligible for their CIB's even though they indeed saw combat. A good bit of it in fact.

It was my hope that by writing a book some of those forgotten men might eventually receive their CIB's, and because he's my Dad, and I love him, I would really love to see that happen. In all likelihood this will not happen, and you have made me reflect upon whether my nagging him to do it is based out of something good for him, or something inside me. I feel a bit ashamed right now actually. I think it's best to let it fade away right now. Thank you for your post FortTom. I got my head screwed back on straight.

[Uffdaphil]

In my time LRPs mostly operated as members of regular and Airborne units, not separate groups, they wore whatever their commanders allowed. Some had custom designed Viet sewn that were absolutely not authorized on paper. Here are some of the types I saw: triangular Recondo worn on front (left IIRC) and/or shoulder tab. I don't doubt these were only worn in the rear to impress and cage free drinks.

Upper right triangle is most typical in my memory.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/uffdaphil/image_17.jpeg (http://s150.photobucket.com/user/uffdaphil/media/image_17.jpeg.html)

Typical shoulder design. Blacked out of course. The small LRP tab worn above Airborne is what I recall. Don't know if I ever saw a leg unit Patch with LRP. But maybe as Big Red One was based close to me.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s92/uffdaphil/image_20.jpeg (http://s150.photobucket.com/user/uffdaphil/media/image_20.jpeg.html)

[DUX]

Thank you for the post Uffdaphil. FortTom kind of helped me screw my head back on straight about this. I think I'm just going to drop it. That said, at least there is a post somewhere on the internet that talks about the LRRPs that were not Rangers. Maybe someday someone will do a book on it. I think those men deserve it.

[Uffdaphil]

Lot of books out there. Here are some to start with.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/us-army-long-range-patrol-scout-in-vietnam-1965-71-gordon-rottman/1009165920?ean=9781846032509&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP648&k_clickid=3x648

[DUX]

Thanks again Uffdaphil. I'll check some of those out. I spoke with Dad last week and he was telling me that there is a series on NewsmaxTV called "Marines in Vietnam" but that the latter half of the series is actually about LRRPs. I don't see that series for sale anywhere so I'll have to try and catch it when broadcasted if they run it again.

[Uffdaphil]

Here is a first person account of an shake-and-bake nco who made E-6 in less than a year before going to VN! Not Airborne or Ranger, Lurp out of in-country Recondo course. Recce school link on left side.
http://escort68.tripod.com/71StLRP/id1.html

[DUX]

Uffdaphil, man that's a fantastic link! Thank you again! Dad made Sgt. but got busted back down to Cpl. before coming home. During Tet '69 he and his team were back at Long Binh or the 44th Operational--I can't recall off hand--and he said a Captain ordered them into a bunker. He said you never went into the bunkers because one, the mama-sons took dumps in them, and there were often filled with standing water and poisonous snakes in them, but also that the NVA had them pre-triangulated for mortor fire. He says one guy, not him of course, punched the Captain out and he got blamed for it. He didn't do any time in jail for the offence as they were heading into 48 hours of constant fighting, but he did get busted down a grade. He also made mention to me that "fragging" was real in 'Nam.

[Thompson]

Dad mentioned to me that they did not wear any patches or anything that would identify them. He said that any photos you've ever seen of LRRPs are most likely guys who screwed up. To be photographed was to be out of the program. The photo that I ran across was mis-labled as 1st Cav. He said it was the photo taken after the completion of his teams final mission, and he has no idea how it got released out to the internet.
Maybe I'm not understanding something - but are you sure? All of the LRRP/LRP books I've read have a section in the center, just filled with pictures of the guys on the team, etc.


Later the general staff out of Long Binh became concerned with the level of autonomy given the LRRP teams and re-activated the Rangers to take over the LRRP program. Most of the original LRRPs rebelled against this and quit, and the history of the LRRPs became the history of the Rangers.
Maybe I don't quite remember the lineage of LRRPs, or maybe I misinterpreted something, but to my knowledge LRRPs as a whole did not transform into the 75th Rangers. I do believe, however one of the LRRP companies did convert/transform into a Ranger Company.



My motivation comes from hearing him lament that he, and a lot of the others never got their CIB. He's not one to really care about medals or commendations, but for some reason that single one matters to him.
I read a book, can't remember which at the moment, but I do distinctly remember the author talking about the "stigma" (but in a positive light), for lack of better words, behind getting the CIB. It was something along the lines (keep in mind, I read this, like at least 5 years ago) that, anyone you see who has a CIB was a squared away dude who knew their shit, and one could generally trust not to fk up and get yourself killed.

EDIT: It might be this (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/special-men-dennis-foley/1113207389?ean=9780804109154#productInfoTabs) book that talks about the CIB thing I was getting out. Not 100% sure if it was this book though.


Lot of books out there. Here are some to start with.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/us-army-long-range-patrol-scout-in-vietnam-1965-71-gordon-rottman/1009165920?ean=9781846032509&st=PLA&sid=BNB_DRS_Core+Shopping+Books_00000000&2sid=Google_&sourceId=PLGoP648&k_clickid=3x648
This (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/eyes-of-the-eagle-gary-linderer/1100619788?ean=9780804107334) was the first Vietnam War era book I ever read, (LRRP book of course) and still is my favorite as far as Vietnam books go.


In my time LRPs mostly operated as members of regular and Airborne units, not separate groups, they wore whatever their commanders allowed.
Yep, that's right. I think originally LRRPs started as their own separate entity, but as the war went on, commanders started to realize the importance of LRRP/LRP units, and instead, they became folded into existing units like you mentioned. Although, would suck for the LRP guys who had to work for regular line guys, cause everyone who isn't a leg - hates legs lol.

[DUX]

I had this conversation with Dad about five years ago too. I've been searching for the photo that I found and finally came up with it. He's the little guy with the revolver. It was a .45ACP using moon-clips. Today I don't think it's a big deal but at the time Dad said LRRPs were never to be photographed. That may well have been to do with the 11th Cav. ARC LRRPs not being officially sanctioned by Long Binh but by General Patton. Patton was a rogue like his more famous WWII father. He mentioned that they got a Ranger Team leader that he liked very much but that the other guys were no Rangers and had been doing the job before the Team Leader came into the picture. I'm recalling all of this from a spell back of course and I may be making a hatchet job of it.
890

[Uffdaphil]

I believe the 11th cav was Colonel Patton at the time. Dad probably meant Tet '68, the big one. I was in Long Binh for the '69 Tet. Not a lot happened.

[Thompson]

Today I don't think it's a big deal but at the time Dad said LRRPs were never to be photographed.
Makes sense. Guess it's somewhat akin today, where same idea with SOF guys out there.

Ah - and some good ol tiger strips in that picture. Can't remember if this was LRRPs, but some organization was know to tape three 20 rd mags together, triangle fashion. And if discovered out in the field, that team/unit would be in a world of hurt as the VC/NVA knew what unit those mags were associated with.

[DUX]

Uffdaphil, I think he said '69, but it's been several years. He bounced around all over. I may be confusing the 44th Operational Area with Long Binh. This was at the time the 11th Cav. was heading up towards the Cambodian border.

Thompson, it seems so. That came up because I asked him if he had a patch from his time in Vietnam and he said that while some guys had patches made they were not supposed to wear patches or talk about being LRRPs to anyone. I showed him a photo that I found of an 11th guy and he said: "That's not usual. That guy probably screwed up and was drumbed out."

[DUX]

http://customers.hbci.com/~mwalter/AREA%20Co..bmp

Uffdaphill, this photo was taken from the hooch he was in during his first two months in country with 44th Signal, near the MARS instillation at Long Binh. He mentioned that the green belt was a problem area, and that they took some B-40 rockets from it. There was an ammo dump at the end of this street on the other side that got hit according to Dad.

[DUX]

...Can't remember if this was LRRPs, but some organization was know to tape three 20 rd mags together, triangle fashion. And if discovered out in the field, that team/unit would be in a world of hurt as the VC/NVA knew what unit those mags were associated with.

I hadn't heard about that. What did it signify? I mean the triangle config? Why would they do that?

[DUX]

http://escort68.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/bobdenver.jpg
As per the link Uffdaphill sent; BOB DENVER was a LRRP? Holy Cow! I had no idea. ;)

[FortTom]

FortTom, thank you for the reply. You are of course quite correct and level-headed in your assessment. He doesn't want to talk about it. My motivation comes from hearing him lament that he, and a lot of the others never got their CIB. He's not one to really care about medals or commendations, but for some reason that single one matters to him. Being that they were all volunteers taken from various other outfits, the guys drawn from officially "non combat" units (In my fathers case a crypto-radio specialist with escape and evasion school training) were not eligible for their CIB's even though they indeed saw combat. A good bit of it in fact.

It was my hope that by writing a book some of those forgotten men might eventually receive their CIB's, and because he's my Dad, and I love him, I would really love to see that happen. In all likelihood this will not happen, and you have made me reflect upon whether my nagging him to do it is based out of something good for him, or something inside me. I feel a bit ashamed right now actually. I think it's best to let it fade away right now. Thank you for your post FortTom. I got my head screwed back on straight.

I don't think you have to be apologetic about your pride in the historical place your father helped carve out in our country's history. We all owe him a great deal of gratitude.

FT

[DUX]

Thank you on behalf of my father FortTom but I don't think he feels he did anything special. However, it's very kind of you to extend the compliment. I really do hope someone tells the story of the Volunteer LRRPs before they are all dead. We shall see.

[Thompson]

I hadn't heard about that. What did it signify? I mean the triangle config? Why would they do that?
Again, I may be wrong - but there was a way they taped them together; a distinctive way they did it in their organization. In other words - it was an easy way to ID them as to who they are.

Think about it. You have 3 mags taped together - faster reload, rather than pulling a fresh mag from your LBE (or what have you).

[DUX]

Were they Project Delta guys? B-52 or Team 50 I think they were called? I'm real hazy on that side of the history. It all seems to bleed together into the LRRPs and Rangers and 5th Group guys. Very hard to figure out where one ends and another begins for me. I remember Dad talking about Cao Lanh and something called "Green Archer" or "Jade Archer"; something like that. I think we had killed a 12 pack by that point. I recall him mentioning something about how the Russians had our radio comms compromised and you could only make one call on the radio even with the Crypto pack attached to it, and then you had to haul-a*s, dragging the aerial antenna behind you through the jungle to the LZ for pick-up. I distinctly remember him saying he was given a lot of crap his first time out because he ran to the Huey and jumped into it, losing his grip on his rifle. It slid across the floor and out the other side. No time to get it, so he lost his rifle. He told me he was so scared he didn't give a damn. LOL!

[Thompson]

Not sure like I said.

And wow - definitely would not blame him there lol

[DUX]

I found this documentary on Recondo School which is related to the discussion here. I had never seen it before and it seems pretty good.
https://youtu.be/jGIqUJfR6qI