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gatordev
5 May 2016, 16:23
Disclaimer: Anything I post in here isn't meant to disparage or blame Rainier Arms. It's genuinely meant as asking for some info, I just happen to be working with RA parts. I understand I may be asking all of the parts to do something they can't do...

So here's the breakdown of the problem I'm having. This is with a 16" Match Grade RA 308 barrel and BCG using a carbine receiver extension (and a MATEN receiver set). I'm also using HeavyBuffers.com's CAR-10 XH buffer (his heaviest). I'm still trying to figure out what spring I'm using, but have some research to complete. The MATEN/CAR-10 XH has run flawlessly on a KAC rifle, but the RA barrel is a middy length, so the gas system is a bit different.

When shooting various types of quality (and not so) ammo unsuppressed, everything functions 4.0. However, when shooting suppressed, I get regular FTE issues where the empty case doesn't clear the ejection port and ends up getting thrown back on top of the loading round, causing the whole thing to lock up, with the case pushing down on the loaded round and the bolt up against the round. The loaded round ends up getting pretty beat up and bent in the process.

My diagnosis is that the BCG is stripping the empty case before it can clear the chamber. Makes sense with the added pressure from the can. So, before I start diving into an A5 or rifle style buffer/extension, is it possible to "upgrade" extractor springs on a 308 bolt? On an AR-15/M-16, we have the benefit of putting a rubber-baby-bumper ring in there and it solves lots of problems, but I'm not aware of such a device on the 308 side. And since there is no "standard," I'm not sure we could even have one. So, any suggestions on figuring out "if" the extractor springs are "strong enough" on the bolt?

I understand this may end up resulting in an A5 system, but wanted to explore other options before going down that road/money hole.

SINNER
5 May 2016, 17:37
Any damage to the spent case? In particular damage to the neck or shoulder that looks like a half moon? Sounds like it's over gassed. It will drive the spent case into the ejection port. Bolt carrier is basically trying to go into battery before the spent case clears the port. Sharp recoil impulse?

SwissyJim
5 May 2016, 17:50
Sounds familiar. My .308, also using a RA UltraMatch 20" barrel, was having issues when I first built it. With a standard buffer setup my issue sounded just like yours. I added the Heavy Buffers setup and everything was hunky-dorey. Now that I put a SilencerCo brake on it, and shoot it suppressed, I'm right back to where I started with the issue. I have an SLR adjustable gasblock for it but don't have the time right now to swap, mainly since I have a stripped bolt on my handguard I need to drill out and I'm having way more fun running my boat and chasing shrimp. I'm about 99.9% sure it will solve the issue- my brass went from a nice 4 o'clock ejection to damn near noon o'clock (when it ejects)

gatordev
5 May 2016, 18:23
Any damage to the spent case? In particular damage to the neck or shoulder that looks like a half moon? Sounds like it's over gassed. It will drive the spent case into the ejection port. Bolt carrier is basically trying to go into battery before the spent case clears the port. Sharp recoil impulse?

The base of the case might have a little scrape on it, but it's mostly just scraping off the gas/soot of the blowback. However, opening (not sure I could call it the neck) has a dented opening. Not something unheard of on an auto-loading 308. Otherwise, the brass looks normal. The recoil impulse isn't extraordinary, and prone, I can still watch bits of trash get hit at 100y. I agree, it's over-gassed, but only with the suppressor.


Sounds familiar. My .308, also using a RA UltraMatch 20" barrel, was having issues when I first built it. With a standard buffer setup my issue sounded just like yours. I added the Heavy Buffers setup and everything was hunky-dorey. Now that I put a SilencerCo brake on it, and shoot it suppressed, I'm right back to where I started with the issue. I have an SLR adjustable gasblock for it but don't have the time right now to swap, mainly since I have a stripped bolt on my handguard I need to drill out and I'm having way more fun running my boat and chasing shrimp. I'm about 99.9% sure it will solve the issue- my brass went from a nice 4 o'clock ejection to damn near noon o'clock (when it ejects)

Sounds like our situations are similar. I'm not really jazzed about dealing with an adjustable gas block, not to mention the complete re-doing of some gunsmithing. If I need to buy parts, I'd rather do it by adjusting the buffering system.

SwissyJim
5 May 2016, 19:21
The base of the case might have a little scrape on it, but it's mostly just scraping off the gas/soot of the blowback. However, opening (not sure I could call it the neck) has a dented opening. Not something unheard of on an auto-loading 308. Otherwise, the brass looks normal. The recoil impulse isn't extraordinary, and prone, I can still watch bits of trash get hit at 100y. I agree, it's over-gassed, but only with the suppressor.



Sounds like our situations are similar. I'm not really jazzed about dealing with an adjustable gas block, not to mention the complete re-doing of some gunsmithing. If I need to buy parts, I'd rather do it by adjusting the buffering system.
I hear ya... I was sooooo happy when the Heavy Buffer setup fixed the issue the first time. Now however, I'm a little excited that if I put the adj block on, and put my original lighter buffer setup back in, I *may* be able to get some subsonic .308 to cycle the BCG. THAT would be freaking awesome, and worth the effort imo. It's a long shot, and I'm betting against it...but... worth the attempt.

SINNER
6 May 2016, 06:21
The base of the case might have a little scrape on it, but it's mostly just scraping off the gas/soot of the blowback. However, opening (not sure I could call it the neck) has a dented opening. Not something unheard of on an auto-loading 308. Otherwise, the brass looks normal. The recoil impulse isn't extraordinary, and prone, I can still watch bits of trash get hit at 100y. I agree, it's over-gassed, but only with the suppressor.

Out of all my .308 rifles I see very little case damage on the spent cases. My money is on excessive bolt speed like was previously mentioned. I no longer use any carbine extensions on .308's due to these very issues. They can be made to run well but perform poorly when the rifle is used in multiple configurations. If set up to run suppressed they are picky with ammo un-suppressed and likewise if set up to run without a can they beat themselves up with a can. A5 and a green Sprinco is the best compromise but honestly a rifle buffer and tube seems to be the least picky. Adjustable gas blocks cause more issues than they fix IMO. Not even getting into the fact that you still have a rifle that won't run in all scenarios unless the block is adjusted for each configuration change. Reduced gas flow even when open and decreased reliability from carbon build up has turned me off on adjustable blocks. If you are dead set on making this run with that extension I would grab a orange Sprinco spring be willing to open up that buffer and play with the weights. Regardless I think you will find that you end up with a rifle that is very picky in regards to ammo used when switching between suppressed and unsuppressed.

.308's as a whole seem to be much less forgiving in regards to switching the use of the rifle. Even my SCAR has issues with hot loads when using a can. Factory Hornady Superformance causes the exact issue you describe, and often worse. I have seen the spent case actually wind up backwards jammed on top of the round being chambered.

gatordev
6 May 2016, 13:07
I'm not locked into the current extension. I've asked Clint at heavybuffers.com for his thoughts and so far, it looks like an A5 is the way to go, but I'm still trying to figure out what direction to go with the buffer. As I mentioned, I'm just not excited about adjustable gas blocks, and not just for this rifle. It's great that people like theirs, but I just don't want to worry about the maintenance.

All that said, I think I'm going to be asking for some guidance on the A5 system. I'm trying to understand what the difference is between their AR-10 system and their AR-15 system. Seems like they use the same spring for either. Since this is going on a MATEN, which takes AR-15 components (well, mostly), I need to do some more googling.




.308's as a whole seem to be much less forgiving in regards to switching the use of the rifle. Even my SCAR has issues with hot loads when using a can. Factory Hornady Superformance causes the exact issue you describe, and often worse. I have seen the spent case actually wind up backwards jammed on top of the round being chambered.

This is exactly what was happening to me. Case was primer-in, on top of the fed round. At least I have a direction to go forward with.

gatordev
14 May 2016, 17:18
Thanks to Slash/Clint at Heavybuffers.com, the problem seems to have been resolved with an A5 extension and some goodies from HB.com. I ran some crap PPU and some M118LR clone rounds, and no failures both unsuppressed and suppressed.

SwissyJim
14 May 2016, 22:15
Thanks to Slash/Clint at Heavybuffers.com, the problem seems to have been resolved with an A5 extension and some goodies from HB.com. I ran some crap PPU and some M118LR clone rounds, and no failures both unsuppressed and suppressed.

Awesome news. I'll keep it in mind if the adjustable block doesn't pan out. Only reason I am trying that first is I really wanna try subsonic loads. If in fact mine is so far overgassed, maybe.. just maybe... sub loads will cycle with all the lightest parts installed. Then I can tune it down with the block for unsuppressed work. But... if that does not pan out (not holding my breath) then I'll most likely pursue the same outcome you ended up with.

gatordev
15 May 2016, 08:25
My only other complaint was that I appear to have a pretty massive POI shift (.6 mil up), but it was consistent so not the end of the world. I'll probably just slip the turrets and keep the zero for running suppressed.

SINNER
16 May 2016, 03:40
If you get a chance could you measure the length of that buffer? Thanks

gatordev
16 May 2016, 03:57
I'll try the next few days.

jbjh
16 May 2016, 07:39
Thanks to Slash/Clint at Heavybuffers.com, the problem seems to have been resolved with an A5 extension and some goodies from HB.com. I ran some crap PPU and some M118LR clone rounds, and no failures both unsuppressed and suppressed.

What else besides the A5? New buffer/spring combo?

Thanks

gatordev
16 May 2016, 14:59
Correct. The XH Carbine buffer and the AR-10 rifle buffer spring.

SINNER
16 May 2016, 15:26
So he is providing a standard AR15 carbine buffer to use in a A5 receiver extension? No need to measure the buffer if that's the case.

gatordev
16 May 2016, 18:22
I'll have to see if the length is the same, but it is NOT a standard carbine buffer. It's 8.5 oz coupled with his longer-than-standard .308 spring. Regardless, it made it all work, so call it what you want.

Deadwing
30 May 2016, 03:09
I haven't got the gun assembled yet, but i've got a MATEN set and a RA UltraMatch 20" barrel waiting for me to get off my lazy ass and build it. I bought a stock/buffer/receiver extension kit from LMT. The receiver extension is the same length as the Vltor A5, and the buffer is an H3 (same physical dimensions and weight as another AR15 H3 buffer i had sitting around). The action springs i purchased to use with this set-up are Armalite AR10 rifle length springs. I've got my fingers crossed that this combination of parts will function well.

Originally, i had purchased the DPMS buffer that was designed to run with standard AR15 carbine receiver extensions, but had my doubts about the ability of that set-up to effectively regulate the cycle of operation.

Glad to hear the heavy buffer did the trick. I'll definitely keep this in mind for when i finally get my MATEN assembled and test fired.

gatordev
30 May 2016, 07:27
I shot the rifle again the other day doing a quick op check with crap ZQI 147gr (which was meh). It still is over-gassed, especially with the can. Like crazy over-gassed. But it functioned 100% suppressed or unsuppressed.

Given Rainier's pedigree, I'm a little surprised how gassy the system is. I understand a manufacturer has to find that sweet spot between people shooting crap ammo and those shooting spec ammo, but given how much weight and spring length is behind the BCG now, it seems this barrel is a little excessive.

It would be interesting to shoot this upper on my KAC lower, which is pretty close to an A5 setup. Maybe something to try another day.

SwissyJim
6 June 2016, 17:44
well, got out and finally shot my .308 with the new adj gas block I put on (and pinned! first one) and I found the same thing - my Rainier barrel is pretty gassy! I have the block slightly less than half closed and I have perfect 4 o'clock ejection, about 5 feet from the rest. Put the can on, and it changes to about the 2 o'clock position but also about 5 feet out. Total lockback on last round and no issues stripping the next. Brass all looks spotless - on marks at all, unlike before the block change. And that's with the heavy buffers spring and buffer.

Altho I found I had sold off my original 308 spring and buffer, which was why I went with the adj block! Now I need to order another setup so I can test the subsonic possibility. I'm still hoping beyond hope that with the barrel as gassy as it is, with the lighter spring/buffer setup (using the Heavy Buffers setup now) and the gas block open all the way, that I'll be able to have a functioning 308AR that shoots subs! Then I can dial back the gas and shoot supers when needed. How cool would that be?!? It's worth a shot to me, and even if it does not work I'm ok with the adj block setup.

Glad you got yours running Gator... the 308 is fun. Mine is going with me next year to the boating long distance shooting trip, and I'm pretty sure we can get a target out past 550yrds [:D]

OTShooter
19 June 2016, 12:30
What kind of gas block does this gun have? I'm thinking that the extra back pressure is causing the over-gas situation. My SIG 716 has a 4 position gas block: normal, "adverse" (open more than normal), suppressed (partially off) and off. Yes, this is a piston gun, but the concept is the same. Like a Noveske Switchblock, which has off, suppressed, and unsuppressed settings. I don't know if the Noveske would work with your barrel, but that's the direction I'd go.

There's a balance you'll need to establish between gas quantity and buffer weight with any AR-type gun, but since the issue is only when suppressed, it looks like the first step would be to get control of the gas issue, then figure out the buffer later.

BoilerUp
19 June 2016, 14:07
... I'll be able to have a functioning 308AR that shoots subs! Then I can dial back the gas and shoot supers when needed. How cool would that be?!?

Why do you want to handicap a .308 down to subsonic? Because you want the ballistics of a 300 BLK out of a 10 pound weapon?

SwissyJim
20 June 2016, 23:34
Why do you want to handicap a .308 down to subsonic? Because you want the ballistics of a 300 BLK out of a 10 pound weapon?

because it's a challenge to get a sub round to cycle a 308AR, it'd be fun at the range and for no other reason than to see if I can.

SwissyJim
20 June 2016, 23:39
What kind of gas block does this gun have? I'm thinking that the extra back pressure is causing the over-gas situation. My SIG 716 has a 4 position gas block: normal, "adverse" (open more than normal), suppressed (partially off) and off. Yes, this is a piston gun, but the concept is the same. Like a Noveske Switchblock, which has off, suppressed, and unsuppressed settings. I don't know if the Noveske would work with your barrel, but that's the direction I'd go.

There's a balance you'll need to establish between gas quantity and buffer weight with any AR-type gun, but since the issue is only when suppressed, it looks like the first step would be to get control of the gas issue, then figure out the buffer later.

Sorry... maybe need to clarify. Gun runs fine, I'm just goofing with it to see if I can use the overgassiness (word?) to my advantage and combine it with the lightweight OEM spring/buffercomboto try and get subsonic loads to actually cycle the gun.

gatordev
2 September 2016, 14:55
So I may have finally tamed my rifle without having to file for domestic abuse charges. As usual, the problem was solved by eventually throwing the right amount of money at the problem. I need to do some more shooting to confirm, but after a few rounds of crappy ZQI and some 7.62 FGMM, I appear to have a fully functioning suppressed rifle. The solution: A Gemtech Bolt Carrier. The rifle now feels much closer to my SR-25. Also, before the Gemtech, I encountered the original issue come back with FGMM 7.62 (but not .308, interestingly) and a Brownell's mag. PMag worked fine, but not so much with the Brownell's. Today, both mags worked equally well with 7.62 FGMM.

What's crazy is it would still cycle the ZQI unsuppressed while on the suppressed setting, although it short stroked about 40% of the time. I'm so much happier now and will probably try and do a little more accuracy testing with some 175 SMKs soon. At the very least, I know this is a 400m rifle, and now it will be a little more pleasant to try farther.

Former11B
2 September 2016, 16:43
Why do you want to handicap a .308 down to subsonic? Because you want the ballistics of a 300 BLK out of a 10 pound weapon?

I run subsonics from my .308 occasionally. 150gr flat point over Trailboss. It's fun with the can on, super quiet, and I don't have or want/need a 300BLK. Win/win IMO

Joelski
2 September 2016, 17:45
I'm surprised nobody's developed a damper system to address this issue. Think in terms of a monoshock motorcycle suspension; a compound, rising rate spring to dampen recoil, and a shock absorber to control rebound. A tuneable system like that would cure any problem that currently affects overgassed, underpowered systems.

gatordev
2 September 2016, 17:54
I'm surprised nobody's developed a damper system to address this issue. Think in terms of a monoshock motorcycle suspension; a compound, rising rate spring to dampen recoil, and a shock absorber to control rebound. A tuneable system like that would cure any problem that currently affects overgassed, underpowered systems.

What you're describing wouldn't solve the actual mechanical issues that result in an over-gassed (or even an under-gassed system). It would feel great to the shooter, but doesn't solve the actual auto-loading issue.

Sak007
21 September 2016, 02:30
Apologies for upcoming rant but it's been trapped in my head and needs release[BD]
Random AR10 issue .A couple of months ago I went to the range to sight in and was having issues - still not sure if barrel or scope related but I could not get on target for the life of me and was become more than irritated as I have dumped waaaaaay to much into building this multi year project that still is having issues .
I had a 20rd mag left so I just wanted to fire it off to let off some steam & at some point through this it slam fired and scared the shit out of me and my spotter. I wasn't hurt but the bolt was locked up pretty bad with no obvious damage .
When I got home I had to beat the crap out of it to get the bcg to go back and gouged a chunk out of the inside of the upper . Much to my surprise the bcg seemed intact along with barrel etc. . Tried to take barrel off and barrel nut wouldn't budge so I let it sit in the safe as I had other projects that get more use to work on.
The last couple weeks I've been thinking a lot about possibly building a 6.5cm upper or getting a RPR so I decided to bust my upper out of the safe and take it apart . Long story long i had to soak it in pb blaster to even get it to budge at which point it locks up & i'm thinking shit there went the threads , more soaking finally get it off with the last couple threads on the receiver getting a bit stripped .
All looks good until until I notice the barrel pin is seriously bent .
I think the chamber swelled and caused the issue with the barrel nut locking up and was curious for some input on the whole series of things that lead to where we are now , and wondering where to go from there ?
Do I play it safe and assume bcg & upper are a loss because them may be damaged and be out of spec ?
Barrel isn't worth fixing so I will replace that .
How do I even check any of these parts without spending money I could put into new parts just to be safe ?
If it turns out upper is ok what barrel do I replace it with & what length ?
This rifle was way over gassed so I don't wanna run into the same issues when I go at this again so here is a parts list of what was in it & what I want to replace .

Current build out
Mega Maten set
24in Black Hole barrel
Sadlak low pro gas block
standard rifle length gas tube
Sandman Ti
DPMS chrome bcg
Jp silent capture spring heavy spring

If the receiver is ok I will sell set to a buddy to fund a 2_a Xanthos set
16 or 18 barrel will be running suppressed and generally shooting up to 500yds -I plan on getting a Ruger rpr in 6.5cm down the road for longer distances
Superlative Arms "bleed off" gas block - hoping this will help with the over gassing or is it necessary ?
Bcg ? If bolt is done replace with a Jp high pressure bolt or if whole thing is toast what bcg ?

Again I apologize for this monstrosity that is this post but I need some re assurance as I don't feel good about a gun I don't trust

Sak007
23 September 2016, 02:33
bump

SINNER
23 September 2016, 05:33
So basically you had an out of battery discharge that damaged a steel barrel extension and caused visible physical damage to the upper when you removed it and you want to know if it's OK to sell it?

Seems like that question should answer itself to me.

Deadwing
23 September 2016, 14:56
I don't feel good about a gun I don't trust

I think you answered your own question. Re-using possibly compromised parts isn't worth a trip to the hospital (or the morgue).

UWone77
23 September 2016, 15:42
Your BCG is done.
Your Barrel is done.
Your Upper is done.

Like SINNER commented, you had an out of battery discharge that damaged a steel barrel extension. Let that sink in for a minute. It takes a shit load of pressure to damage the extension that usually sees 10's of thousands of rounds. Not only would I not trust that entire upper to shoot myself ever again, I wouldn't sell it to anyone and have that liability on me.

Slippers and I have talked about AR10's extensively recently. Factory guns are the way to go for most of us with .308 AR's. Too many tolerances and not enough parts play well together like AR15's. Sucks to blow up your upper, but sometimes mistakes cost money. Just be happy you and/or a buddy weren't injured.

Sak007
23 September 2016, 16:48
So basically you had an out of battery discharge that damaged a steel barrel extension and caused visible physical damage to the upper when you removed it and you want to know if it's OK to sell it?

Seems like that question should answer itself to me.
That whole short story I wrote was a way to sorta get it on the paper and out of my head and to arrive at the right conclusion , thank for the slap I needed to quit pussyfooting and just call it an expensive loss .

Sak007
23 September 2016, 16:52
Your BCG is done.
Your Barrel is done.
Your Upper is done.

Like SINNER commented, you had an out of battery discharge that damaged a steel barrel extension. Let that sink in for a minute. It takes a shit load of pressure to damage the extension that usually sees 10's of thousands of rounds. Not only would I not trust that entire upper to shoot myself ever again, I wouldn't sell it to anyone and have that liability on me.

Slippers and I have talked about AR10's extensively recently. Factory guns are the way to go for most of us with .308 AR's. Too many tolerances and not enough parts play well together like AR15's. Sucks to blow up your upper, but sometimes mistakes cost money. Just be happy you and/or a buddy weren't injured.

So what barrel & bcg now ?
I haven't decided if I will sell the lower to fund a Xanthos or just add a new monolithic Maten upper .

Deadwing
23 September 2016, 23:53
So what barrel & bcg now ?
I haven't decided if I will sell the lower to fund a Xanthos or just add a new monolithic Maten upper .

Buy an SR-25. That's my game plan.

UWone77
24 September 2016, 00:05
I've been lucky so far. All of my AR10's work... but several have had to be tweaked to get to that point. My plan is a LMT MWS.

Deadwing likes nice stuff, so I don't blame him for getting a SR-25... love to do the same, but I already have too much money in guns I don't shoot.

The only 308 AR10 barrels I've used are Rainier UltraMatch and Match barrels. Lantac E-BCG's, Rainier UltraMatch BCG's, and the occasional AIM BCG have all worked well.

Deadwing
24 September 2016, 00:50
I've been lucky so far. All of my AR10's work... but several have had to be tweaked to get to that point. My plan is a LMT MWS.

Deadwing likes nice stuff, so I don't blame him for getting a SR-25... love to do the same, but I already have too much money in guns I don't shoot.

The only 308 AR10 barrels I've used are Rainier UltraMatch and Match barrels. Lantac E-BCG's, Rainier UltraMatch BCG's, and the occasional AIM BCG have all worked well.

I like the LMT MWS a lot as well. I keep going back and forth between that and the SR-25. But my next AR10 will be a factory gun. Too many companies making too much shit that doesn't work well together.

Sak007
24 September 2016, 05:21
I'm looking at the 16 in Rainier barrels and wanted to know if their is a reason to go with the ultra match at $100 more over the match barrel ?
It will be run suppressed out to 600 yards maybe occasionally past that .

UWone77
24 September 2016, 21:13
I'm looking at the 16 in Rainier barrels and wanted to know if their is a reason to go with the ultra match at $100 more over the match barrel ?
It will be run suppressed out to 600 yards maybe occasionally past that .

The UM barrels are Shilen blanks, some of the best anywhere. They will wear better than the Match line as well according to RA's own testing. Personally, I have both and I'm not good enough of a shooter to see much of a difference. If your goal is to shoot groups, it maybe worth getting the UM to squeeze every ounce of performance out of the barrel. YMMV

Sak007
24 September 2016, 22:18
The UM barrels are Shilen blanks, some of the best anywhere. They will wear better than the Match line as well according to RA's own testing. Personally, I have both and I'm not good enough of a shooter to see much of a difference. If your goal is to shoot groups, it maybe worth getting the UM to squeeze every ounce of performance out of the barrel. YMMV

I'm sure both barrels will out shoot me but I noticed that the UM offers a rifle length and wanted to know if it offers any more in terms of reliability vs mid length or is all this really not a big deal as I'm not Bob Lee Swagger ?

fledge
24 September 2016, 22:56
Been paying attention to this thread as I've been building up at AR in 6.5CM. Finished the build this evening and will test this week. Fingers crossed. But I wasn't nervous about this until this thread!

Proof barrel, JP full mass BCG, JP SCS, and Superlative adj GB. We'll see if this combo works.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b556/fledge2000/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/fledge2000/media/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg.html)

alamo5000
24 September 2016, 23:31
I'm looking at the 16 in Rainier barrels and wanted to know if their is a reason to go with the ultra match at $100 more over the match barrel ?
It will be run suppressed out to 600 yards maybe occasionally past that .

At that range there is no reason whatsoever to spend more money on that barrel. I can make a list of reasons if you want.

Sak007
24 September 2016, 23:32
Been paying attention to this thread as I've been building up at AR in 6.5CM. Finished the build this evening and will test this week. Fingers crossed. But I wasn't nervous about this until this thread!

Proof barrel, JP full mass BCG, JP SCS, and Superlative adj GB. We'll see if this combo works.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b556/fledge2000/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/fledge2000/media/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg.html)

Nice stick , I was planing on building a 6.5cm upper to go on mine but It will cost me more than getting a Ruger Precision & all the dies etc . Only reason I'm making my current one in 308 is I have over 10k worth of LC 308 brass to use .

Sak007
24 September 2016, 23:36
At that range there is no reason whatsoever to spend more money on that barrel. I can make a list of reasons if you want.

Thanks for the reply that's what I was thinking but it's hard to overcome my GAS
Gear
Acquisition
Syndrome
that make me want the newest latest & greatest with no thought of the financial consequences ,sometimes it good to be single with no kids :P
Ill get a Ruger Precision 6.5cm for the longer distance stuff

alamo5000
24 September 2016, 23:51
Been paying attention to this thread as I've been building up at AR in 6.5CM. Finished the build this evening and will test this week. Fingers crossed. But I wasn't nervous about this until this thread!

Proof barrel, JP full mass BCG, JP SCS, and Superlative adj GB. We'll see if this combo works.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b556/fledge2000/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/fledge2000/media/2A%20Arms/7A8E9189-466B-4F61-8E7D-A129A150A9A7_zpshrbpek9q.jpg.html)


Nice stick , I was planing on building a 6.5cm upper to go on mine but It will cost me more than getting a Ruger Precision & all the dies etc . Only reason I'm making my current one in 308 is I have over 10k worth of LC 308 brass to use .

I have been doing a whole lot of reading and a whole lot of comparison between cartridges lately. For me and my opinions if you are shooting within 1000 yards, more like out to 800 yards or so the .308 is preferable in many regards. You can shoot a whole lot more, get a lot better barrel life, and the thing is .30 cal so if you hit whatever you're shooting at odds are it's kinda screwed. If the aim is actually shooting more and within those ranges I would go .308 all day long merely because it's so widely available.

A .308 can be taken out to 1000 yards. It is capable of going beyond that but probably not in in the AR platform. For one the rounds and bullets you would need to get there won't fit in a standard AR mag which would defeat the purpose of a mag fed rifle.

If you want to go beyond 1000 yards and/or it's primarily going to be a target gun there are other options. I am going in that direction now and so far for overall performance (I said so far) the most under rated thing out there is a .243. When you balance out the availability of stuff and the cost of components and shooting the thing a .243 is very compelling.

It's not some sexy new round but based on my initial looking around it has a whole lot going for it...in that arena that is.

I am still extremely tempted to build my own AR10 but on balance I think for the ranges I want to go to, the allocation of funds that I need to consider, as well as my style of shooting that a bolt gun would better fit my needs (for now).

Keep in mind though by the time I wake up tomorrow I will still want an AR10 though [:D]

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:00
Thanks for the reply that's what I was thinking but it's hard to overcome my GAS
Gear
Acquisition
Syndrome
that make me want the newest latest & greatest with no thought of the financial consequences ,sometimes it good to be single with no kids :P
Ill get a Ruger Precision 6.5cm for the longer distance stuff

Why the 6.5 CM?

Please note that I have been reading up A LOT on this subject lately... so I am poking you in your brain to see 'why' you want that.

Based on my reading and comparing (at least on paper) you're just opening up a crazy money pit by trying to go the CM route and it won't offer that much if any better performance (for target applications). The 6.5 CM at 1400 yards... your DOPE will be about 51 MOA in elevation. With the .243 at that same range it will be 54 MOA. Yet you're telling me you want to spend about 2x to 3x the money on ammo just because the cool kids are all doing it?

Out to a grand you know what the dial up difference is between a 6.5 and a .243 all other things being equal?

It's 1/2 of an MOA. (using good match ammo)

You would have that much difference depending on whether or not it's cold outside or not.

I am actually looking at that Ruger as well, just in a different cartridge. [:D] It seems like it has a lot to offer... but then again I might get something else but I am narrowing down the caliber list pretty quickly[:D]

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:15
Why the 6.5 CM?

Please note that I have been reading up A LOT on this subject lately... so I am poking you in your brain to see 'why' you want that.

Based on my reading and comparing (at least on paper) you're just opening up a crazy money pit by trying to go the CM route and it won't offer that much if any better performance (for target applications). The 6.5 CM at 1400 yards... your DOPE will be about 51 MOA in elevation. With the .243 at that same range it will be 54 MOA. Yet you're telling me you want to spend about 2x to 3x the money on ammo just because the cool kids are all doing it?

I am actually looking at that Ruger as well, just in a different cartridge. [:D] It seems like it has a lot to offer... but then again I might get something else but I am narrowing down the caliber list pretty quickly[:D]

To be honest I haven't researched the .243 much and would be tempted if I can make .243 out of my 308 brass . My only concern is I don't know if it has enough knockdown for hunting here , but like i said I haven't done my homework on it but will begin now .

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:20
To be honest I haven't researched the .243 much and would be tempted if I can make .243 out of my 308 brass . My only concern is I don't know if it has enough knockdown for hunting here , but like i said I haven't done my homework on it but will begin now .

Depends on what you're hunting. [:D]

Generally for animals smaller than a moose and you're good to go. Deer and such... not a problem.

And that's the beauty of it... it's a .308 case necked down to 6mm. You'd just have to resize and trim your brass and that's it.

Start reading up here...this blog is an excellent resource although he doesn't go into .243 at all...

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/12/best-rifle-caliber/

"The .243 is based on a necked down .308 cartridge case."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:23
Or I could just man up and get a 50 [wow]

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:24
What part of the country are you in again??

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:24
Depends on what you're hunting. [:D]

Generally for animals smaller than a moose and you're good to go. Deer and such... not a problem.

And that's the beauty of it... it's a .308 case necked down to 6mm. You'd just have to resize and trim your brass and that's it.

Start reading up here...this blog is an excellent resource although he doesn't go into .243 at all...

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/12/best-rifle-caliber/

"The .243 is based on a necked down .308 cartridge case."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.243_Winchester

Funny I ignored the .243 post on there and read all the 6.5cm I just want the cool kids to like me [adore]

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:25
What part of the country are you in again??

Elk & Bear country lol , I read an article that involved these 2 animals

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:26
Or I could just man up and get a 50 [wow]

Are you good enough to use it 'way out there' though? LOL

$5 a round... what's not to love about a .50?

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:29
Thanks for the links I'm gonna read up , seems a better deal if I don't have to hunt down new expensive brass .

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:31
Elk & Bear country lol , I read an article that involved these 2 animals

I don't have elks or bears down here so a .243 works just fine. I am using my stuff only for targets... not so much hunting but I can hunt anything around here for sure should I decide to.

Having a 1000+ yard shooter and a hunting rifle are two different things IMO. If you want to have some fun with a Grizzly bear just build you a .458 socom. I am pretty sure that would take down a bear. He would have to be pretty close though. That would be the fun part....LOL

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:33
Thanks for the links I'm gonna read up , seems a better deal if I don't have to hunt down new expensive brass .

6.5 CM brass runs about 75 cents to a buck twenty five for each case.

Sak007
25 September 2016, 00:33
Are you good enough to use it 'way out there' though? LOL

$5 a round... what's not to love about a .50?
Don't have to be good from what I've heard from the 102nd Chairborne it just has to be within a couple yards of target and It will kill itself from fear .
I got to shoot one the other day at the range and wow it was something else but a bit under powered for prairie dog hunting [wow]
There is really no justifiable reason for me to get one except 'Murica

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 00:40
Don't have to be good from what I've heard from the 102nd Chairborne it just has to be within a couple yards of target and It will kill itself from fear .
I got to shoot one the other day at the range and wow it was something else but a bit under powered for prairie dog hunting [wow]
There is really no justifiable reason for me to get one except 'Murica

If you got the money and you want to take out a Toyota then get a .50 [:D]

I've never shot a .50 (yet) but I have some offers out there...

I imagine if you did hit anything living with that big ass .50 cal bullet it would blow a hole about the size of a basketball out his ass. You'd have to go pick up the scrap meat that's hanging in the trees 50 yards away just to be able to make dinner...

Sak007
25 September 2016, 01:01
If you got the money and you want to take out a Toyota then get a .50 [:D]

I've never shot a .50 (yet) but I have some offers out there...

I imagine if you did hit anything living with that big ass .50 cal bullet it would blow a hole about the size of a basketball out his ass. You'd have to go pick up the scrap meat that's hanging in the trees 50 yards away just to be able to make dinner...

I blew the door off a refrigerator about 20+ feet into the air , or so I was told because I was busy dealing with trying to control the very large & expensive gun after the left bi pod leg went out on me shooting off a hood . It was awesome

Deadwing
25 September 2016, 03:15
Or I could just man up and get a 50 [wow]

Now you're talking! Barrett M107A1 .50 BMG. Because 'Murica.

gatordev
25 September 2016, 04:28
Why the 6.5 CM?

Please note that I have been reading up A LOT on this subject lately... so I am poking you in your brain to see 'why' you want that.

Based on my reading and comparing (at least on paper) you're just opening up a crazy money pit by trying to go the CM route and it won't offer that much if any better performance (for target applications). The 6.5 CM at 1400 yards... your DOPE will be about 51 MOA in elevation. With the .243 at that same range it will be 54 MOA. Yet you're telling me you want to spend about 2x to 3x the money on ammo just because the cool kids are all doing it?

Out to a grand you know what the dial up difference is between a 6.5 and a .243 all other things being equal?

It's 1/2 of an MOA. (using good match ammo)


Prices ebb and flow. Also, not everyone is a reloader. For a while, commercial 6.5CM was about the same price as FGMM 175. It looks like CM has creeped up a bit from .308.

More importantly, 6.5CM has some significant gains on .308 in performance. DOPE may be similar for distance, but 6.5CM is significantly better in wind. It requires less of a hold at distance, which can (but not always, of course) help with some of the error in guessing/reading the wind. CM also has a much wider/longer Point Blank Zero, which some can find useful. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's at least another 75 yards or so.

.308 isn't a bad option, but there are solid reasons for the 6mm family.

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 11:54
Prices ebb and flow. Also, not everyone is a reloader. For a while, commercial 6.5CM was about the same price as FGMM 175. It looks like CM has creeped up a bit from .308.

More importantly, 6.5CM has some significant gains on .308 in performance. DOPE may be similar for distance, but 6.5CM is significantly better in wind. It requires less of a hold at distance, which can (but not always, of course) help with some of the error in guessing/reading the wind. CM also has a much wider/longer Point Blank Zero, which some can find useful. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's at least another 75 yards or so.

.308 isn't a bad option, but there are solid reasons for the 6mm family.

I was comparing 6.5 CM to the .243, which is in the 6mm family. .308 has it's place IMO and I still want one but comparing two different rounds both from the 6mm family it's hard to justify (in my mind) the CM (extra ammo cost plus terrible barrel life) to the .243. I haven't gotten done reading up on everything yet, but my preliminary research tells me that 6mm bullets are the way to go for long range (yet affordable) shooting.

I will run some more numbers and compare a 6mm to a 6.5 for wind and see what I can come up with... buying commercial ammo (not even taking into account reloading the cost to feed a .243 is a smidgin over half the price of 6.5 CM.

The only difference is one is 6mm and the other is 6.5...

According to this guy where he polls the top 100 tactical competition shooters out there... they are pretty evenly split between the 6mm and 6.5 bullet...a smidgin more than half of the top competitors chose the 6mm bullet over the 6.5...but almost all of them are in the 6mm family for that application.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/10/12/best-rifle-caliber/

Basically I don't think any average or even above average shooter would be able to out perform either one. Six of one, half dozen of the other pretty much.

The question now becomes which case do you have wrapped around that bullet and why...

gatordev
25 September 2016, 14:48
According to this guy where he polls the top 100 tactical competition shooters out there... they are pretty evenly split between the 6mm and 6.5 bullet...a smidgin more than half of the top competitors chose the 6mm bullet over the 6.5...but almost all of them are in the 6mm family for that application.

That's what I meant when I said "6mm." I wasn't literally saying a 6mm bullet, but the whole family of .243, .260, .264, 6.5CM, 6.5x47, etc.

Alamo, I know this goes back to another thread/discussion, but I'd really recommend you take a PR/Distance class from one of the nationally recognized schools. Grab a R700 of whatever flavor for cheap and put an optic on there and just go to the class. You'll see a lot of the questions you're asking answered, complete with lab work to prove it (based on what others bring to the class) and it will probably give you a much better foundation rather than relying on internet experts and their mumbo-jumbo.

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 15:22
Alamo, I know this goes back to another thread/discussion, but I'd really recommend you take a PR/Distance class from one of the nationally recognized schools. Grab a R700 of whatever flavor for cheap and put an optic on there and just go to the class. You'll see a lot of the questions you're asking answered, complete with lab work to prove it (based on what others bring to the class) and it will probably give you a much better foundation rather than relying on internet experts and their mumbo-jumbo.

I'm all ears. Got a link to the kind of class you're talking about?

I would most definitely love that for sure. I have never taken a formal shooting class (yet) but there are several subjects that I would enjoy taking classes about. That's no joke.

gatordev
25 September 2016, 16:05
There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.

alamo5000
25 September 2016, 16:36
There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.

Thank you Gator... seriously. I will seriously consider it. I am slowly getting more and more into 'serious' shooting. I've always shot but I've just relatively recently gotten more into it to the point where I would consider a class. Like you said... there are a BUNCH to pick from and my finances are not what they should be...

That said before I take and pay for ANY class I will run it by you guys for sure. I know NOTHING about classes and all that. But I do know there are plenty of fakes and assholes out there. James Yeager isn't getting a nickel from me (if you know what I mean).

As for now I need to get my money back in order.

Sak007
25 September 2016, 22:30
There's a bunch out there. Rifles Only is down in Corpus, so not the end of the world in your weirdo huge state. There's another place over in Crestview, FL that Ordnance freaks out about (and I've heard good things from others). I'm not sure of the name, but I think it's CORE. He may chime in with an answer.

Personally, I went all in and did a Magpul SPR class that was right down your lane. But it was also an early class with the instructor, and I have a feeling at this point that his PR1 class is what you'd be looking for. Again, personally, I liked Caylen's style, but I've also grown up in the .mil "these are your standards...didn't meet them? You should probably suck less" type stuff. That said, he's very patient and not a dick. He was just more of a dick to me because I was shooting well and knew I could handle it. And I totally respect that...especially as an instructor...albeit not of guns. But his theory and explanation of ballistics et al were fantastic, and really clicked with me. To this day, I say my shooting ability increased, even with a RDS, because of what he instilled. Now I'm gushing...

But I'm not trying to steer you to any one course. I'd do some Googling and find what works for you.

I wanted to take that class but I believe something happened and it is on hiatus . I'm lucky enough to have a friend with a 100yd pistol 400yd rifle & 1000yd gong and a key to the range so I just need to get this rebuild up and going .

gatordev
26 September 2016, 03:42
The SPR class? It seems like it comes and goes. I think I took it within the first 6 months or so of Caylen starting to teach it, so I think he was still refining it. I took his PR1 class the following year and the SPR class covered 95% of what the PR1 class did. I think people don't want to take a "SPR class" because they see they can shoot farther in the PR1 class. Plus then people can come to the class and show off their $3000 bolt gun.

In reality, either one is teaching the same basic fundamental skill set, and I got a lot of value out of it.

SINNER
28 September 2016, 19:28
I'm sure someone can produce reasons that the Ultramatch barrels are not worth the money but I actually own 3 and use them fairly often. They are the most forgiving .308 barrels I have ever shot as far as ammo goes. Their CM is a tack driver also but I've only shot a few types of ammo. Clear accuracy improvement over other popular barrels I've used including ones that cost a good bit more.

21 rounds of Ventura Munitons bulk .308 reloads at 500 yards. 20" Ultramatch. Not bad with a 12x optic. [BD]

1755

alamo5000
28 September 2016, 20:24
I'm sure someone can produce reasons that the Ultramatch barrels are not worth the money but I actually own 3 and use them fairly often. They are the most forgiving .308 barrels I have ever shot as far as ammo goes. Their CM is a tack driver also but I've only shot a few types of ammo. Clear accuracy improvement over other popular barrels I've used including ones that cost a good bit more.

21 rounds of Ventura Munitons bulk .308 reloads at 500 yards. 20" Ultramatch. Not bad with a 12x optic. [BD]

1755

Not bad at all for 500 yards.

FortTom
29 September 2016, 03:02
Out of a .308 semi-auto? Hell yes, that's an easy Elk, or even deer kill at 500 yards. I could usually get those groups or perhaps a bit tighter with a highly tuned bolt action with carefully crafted hand loads. Great groups.

gatordev
29 September 2016, 04:02
Sinner, what twist rate are you running? Just curious.

SINNER
29 September 2016, 08:28
1:10 twist

gatordev
29 September 2016, 14:38
Your barrel is longer than mine, which may also help with the "cheaper" rounds, but mine is a 1:11.25. I wonder if we're seeing differences based on the different lots of barrels (besides my general inadequacies at marksmanship).

Regardless, I plan to take mine back out at distance in 2 weeks with 175 SMKs to see how it does. Hopefully my faith is restored.

mustangfreek
2 October 2016, 02:29
308, 500 yards sounds like a lot of fun..

No where my area to stretch out like that, sux as the one time or 2 I really got out about that far was a blast..

Nice shooting just over 1 Moa it appears