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rxer311
7 May 2016, 11:04
So my upper receiver parts for my Noveske build came today. Noveske MUR upper and NSR 13.5" rail. I have decided that I am going to go with a 14.5" CHF Noveske Barrel with a pinned Silencerco trifecta flash hider. I currently do not have a suppressor but have considered adding one. Using this mounting system should allow for easy attachment of a saker can.

As for BCG, I don't think there is any reason to go with a Noveske RBC BCG so I think I may use a Fail Zero nickel boron BCG and save a few bucks. Any reason I should go with a Noveske. For reference I have always used AIM surplus BCGs on my builds in the past and have always had a good experience with the. Any reason to not go with an AIM surplus BCG for a top shelf build?

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n164/rxer311/IMG_1208_zpsaqc3l2pr.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/rxer311/media/IMG_1208_zpsaqc3l2pr.jpg.html)
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n164/rxer311/IMG_1210_zps3oeve4m0.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/rxer311/media/IMG_1210_zps3oeve4m0.jpg.html)
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n164/rxer311/IMG_1211_zps0r0ky20n.jpg (http://s112.photobucket.com/user/rxer311/media/IMG_1211_zps0r0ky20n.jpg.html)

Slippers
7 May 2016, 11:46
Just my opinion, but I'd choose a different mounting system. I own a Saker and eventually had Silencerco replace my third trifecta maad with the ASR mount. No problems since. It also opens you up to using the omega and specwar cans.

rxer311
7 May 2016, 16:12
Thanks for the advice. I will research it a bit more.

UWone77
7 May 2016, 16:27
Listen to Slippers...don't pin and weld anything until you know for 100% fact what can and mounting system you're getting.

rxer311
7 May 2016, 17:36
Listen to Slippers...don't pin and weld anything until you know for 100% fact what can and mounting system you're getting.

Agreed. I will research this more.

Thoughts on the BCG?

UWone77
7 May 2016, 17:43
Agreed. I will research this more.

Thoughts on the BCG?

I think you mean the Rubber City RCA Nitride BCG with the Noveske laser engraving?

I've got 2. They are Ok, nothing special. RCA doesn't have the best customer service reputation. They told one member here to sell their defective BCG to someone else as they thought it was in spec.

For the money, you can get another quality BCG, even Noveske's phosphate version. The phosphate ones are lightly marked with an "N" on the opposite side, much like Colt Marks theirs with a "C" If you insist on having the Noveske Logo, the RCA is your only choice.

Slippers
7 May 2016, 17:44
Agreed. I will research this more.

Thoughts on the BCG?

As long as you trust the bcg manufacturer shouldn't be a problem. I'm a phosphate fan, though. I like my bcm, colt, lmt groups. :)

The FNG
7 May 2016, 18:18
BCM is good to go. I've used their stuff quite a bit and never had an issue. Their customer service is phenomenal. I bought a used BCG from the arfcom EE with about 1500 on it, I emailed BCM about it (fully disclosed where it was from and all) and was told that if I ever had an issue they would make it right. Lifetime warranty on them is what I was told. Can't beat it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JGifford
9 May 2016, 00:09
Not a fan of the SAKER, and never was. Mounting system sucks. They break. That sucks. Surefire WARCOMP CT is the next mount I'm pinning on something. I love Surefire cans. I love their Warcomp series mounts. YMMV, there. But don't do the SAKER thing, IMO.

The BCG? I have been very pleased with Guy's BCG's from FATHOM Arms. Mil-spec QPQ. Guy has done a lot of behind the scenes QA/QC on these, that you won't elsewhere for sale. They flat-out run. I set my BCG's up ever so slightly different from Guy, but I ran one for over 1500 rounds with Wolf, suppressed, never adding lube (only started with light application of MPRO7 LPX ), and it was still running. It sure was a pain to clean! But yeah...she ran!

I have a total of around 3,000 rounds (about 80% suppressed) on one of Guy's BCG's, and the wear is...very minimal. I am a huge fan of properly done QPQ BCG's.

JGifford
9 May 2016, 00:16
As long as you trust the bcg manufacturer shouldn't be a problem. I'm a phosphate fan, though. I like my bcm, colt, lmt groups. :)

Why are you a fan of phosphate? I'm not arguing over it or trying to "start something", but I am genuinely curious. Especially in light of the military using a "slick" type of coating and it performing very well thus-far in testing. https://www.army.mil/article/161883/ Also keep in mind, LMT uses QPQ'ed gas-keys, and says they "last longer" based on their testing.This is over a phosphate/ CL item. The gas-key is a friction-wear-item (sides), and has a gas-tube wearing on the ID of its bore, so it does kindof encompass "all of the activities" of a BCG as a whole, save load-bearing.

LMT statement:


"We currently use the Stoner System and found that wear on the gas tube decreases the
performance of the system, as well as, friction of the key on the upper receiver. Our goal
was to increase performance of the weapon on the previously mentioned areas with no
consideration for impact on cost and/or delivery.

We started by measuring the wear and friction on the weapon and how this affected the
performance of the system. After analyzing the results, we concluded that performance
could be enhanced by improvements to two areas; heat treating and coating. There were
preliminary tests conducted on several processes and further tested until one was selected
for validation.

This study was started in early 2008 and finished toward the end of April 2008. We used
over 135,000 rounds of ammunition to test and validate our improvements. Results
confirmed improvement to wear resistance, decreased coefficient of friction, enhanced
corrosion resistance, decreased surface roughness, while still meeting or exceeding
military specifications for performance standards. See attached copy of test data
collected. "
*Alluded to data: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/LMT/Gas%20Key%20Study%20Response%20June%202009.pdf


Piggybacking on the coefficient of friction mentioned in the .mil link, as well as LMT's gas-key data, was my own personal test *(see post above this one), as well as this data:
http://www.burlingtoneng.com/wear_resistance.html

Joelski
9 May 2016, 03:18
Honest question: you've come this far to compile Noveske parts, why stop at the bolt for the sake of a few bucks? Noveske commonly sells barrel/bolt combos, so they'd presumably cover any headspacing issues encountered. I'd think inclusion of the bolt would get you as close to a factory spec rifle as possible while still saving a couple bucks at the finish line.

JGifford
9 May 2016, 04:40
Honest question: you've come this far to compile Noveske parts, why stop at the bolt for the sake of a few bucks? Noveske commonly sells barrel/bolt combos, so they'd presumably cover any headspacing issues encountered. I'd think inclusion of the bolt would get you as close to a factory spec rifle as possible while still saving a couple bucks at the finish line.

Because OP was considering a RCA BCG. My experience is that RCA is run by an asshole, and the parts are not the most precisely machined. It's not a Noveske part. It's a part with the Maltese cross lasered onto it and sold by Noveske.

Slippers
9 May 2016, 05:41
Why are you a fan of phosphate? I'm not arguing over it or trying to "start something", but I am genuinely curious. Especially in light of the military using a "slick" type of coating and it performing very well thus-far in testing. https://www.army.mil/article/161883/ Also keep in mind, LMT uses QPQ'ed gas-keys, and says they "last longer" based on their testing.This is over a phosphate/ CL item. The gas-key is a friction-wear-item (sides), and has a gas-tube wearing on the ID of its bore, so it does kindof encompass "all of the activities" of a BCG as a whole, save load-bearing.

LMT statement:


*Alluded to data: http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/LMT/Gas%20Key%20Study%20Response%20June%202009.pdf


Piggybacking on the coefficient of friction mentioned in the .mil link, as well as LMT's gas-key data, was my own personal test *(see post above this one), as well as this data:
http://www.burlingtoneng.com/wear_resistance.html

My preferred bolt carrier is the LMT enhanced, and it only comes in phosphate. As for the LMT gas key, the finish wears off the sides after a few hundred cycles. Mine are shiny. If it helps reduce gas tube wear by having a slicker surface inside the gas key, so be it.

In the end, I honestly don't care how my carriers are finished. The contact surfaces are small and polish themselves through use. The inside of a good phosphate carrier is chrome lined. Carbon build up is self limiting in the carrier. I see no reason to spend extra money on a finish that doesn't actually do something for me.

Re: RCA - I am in agreement with JGifford. Avoid RCA.

JGifford
9 May 2016, 05:51
My preferred bolt carrier is the LMT enhanced, and it only comes in phosphate. As for the LMT gas key, the finish wears off the sides after a few hundred cycles. Mine are shiny. If it helps reduce gas tube wear by having a slicker surface inside the gas key, so be it.

In the end, I honestly don't care how my carriers are finished. The contact surfaces are small and polish themselves through use. The inside of a good phosphate carrier is chrome lined. Carbon build up is self limiting in the carrier. I see no reason to spend extra money on a finish that doesn't actually do something for me.

Re: RCA - I am in agreement with JGifford. Avoid RCA.
The ID of the chrome lined carriers are rougher than the polished ID of a qpq carrier. Also, the finish does not wear off. Just the color. QPQ is a metal treatment that extends into the surface beyond the color wear you noted. This is most apparent in the lack of wear and peening of a qpq cam pin.

Slippers
9 May 2016, 06:44
The ID of the chrome lined carriers are rougher than the polished ID of a qpq carrier. Also, the finish does not wear off. Just the color. QPQ is a metal treatment that extends into the surface beyond the color wear you noted. This is most apparent in the lack of wear and peening of a qpq cam pin.

One of the interesting things about the LMT e-carrier is that most bolts fit tighter in them, which supposedly helps delay unlocking. The "rough" chrome lining feels lovely to me. :)

As for the color wearing off, the finish can too, if there's enough wear. Just like how hard anodizing extends into the surface, but the cam pin eventually reaches raw aluminum where it rubs inside an upper receiver.

Everything smooths out over time. You won't convince me to suddenly believe in QPQ carriers. If you like them, nothing wrong with that. I like my old and busted phosphates. I only have a few rifles, and they get a good bit of use. My 11.5 BCM has already had over 3,000 rounds through it this year, all suppressed. No complaints from my LMT e-carriers.

I think we've gone off topic enough in this thread.

SINNER
9 May 2016, 06:49
I am in agreement with the avoid RCA mentality. Had bad luck with their carriers and horrible customer service.

However I disagree with the Saker mount comments. I have had no issues with either caliber Saker mounts other than lack of maintence with buildup on the brake. Honestly the ASR mounts on my Spec War and Omega have been more problematic for me than the Sakers. Twice the mount has been very difficult to remove from the brake and the locking ring on my Spec War would continually work itself loose. SilencerCo sent a replacement next day but it still failed.

Slippers
9 May 2016, 07:45
I am in agreement with the avoid RCA mentality. Had bad luck with their carriers and horrible customer service.

However I disagree with the Saker mount comments. I have had no issues with either caliber Saker mounts other than lack of maintence with buildup on the brake. Honestly the ASR mounts on my Spec War and Omega have been more problematic for me than the Sakers. Twice the mount has been very difficult to remove from the brake and the locking ring on my Spec War would continually work itself loose. SilencerCo sent a replacement next day but it still failed.

Your ASR sounds like my last three Trifecta MAAD mounts. :)

I had so many issues I was ready to buy a Surefire can and move on. The ASR saved it. My Trifecta MAAD would be impossible to remove sometimes even if I didn't shoot the rifle on my 5.56 muzzle devices. On my .308 bolt gun, it would always loosen up after one shot. No matter how hard I cranked it on. Silencerco sent me three different Trifecta MAAD mounts, replaced several of my Trifecta muzzle devices, and finally swapped it all out for ASR parts.

n4p226r
9 May 2016, 10:00
Order the noveske barrel with a matched bolt. G&r carries colt carriers without the bolt. Done!

JGifford
9 May 2016, 11:41
Colt likely makes the finest carrier I've owned of the phosphate variety.

Slippers
9 May 2016, 12:30
Colt likely makes the finest carrier I've owned of the phosphate variety.

But alas, it does not have the improved cam pin track and additional exhaust ports found on the LMT enhanced carrier.

n4p226r
9 May 2016, 12:39
What's the cost of the lmt carriers?

Joelski
9 May 2016, 12:39
QPQ, NiBX, all that shit is easier to clean than phosphate. Hell crud wipes off. Some people run dry, some run wet, but if you like it somewhat reasonably lubricated, WGAF? GOD didn't write the rules on lubing or what to use, right? There's enough SME theory to support both methods, right? To me, anything works great if it fits in the ultrasound cleaner I don't have, so quick and easy is the way. If that costs me money down the road because I won't get 280k cycles, who cares? Its a CONSUMABLE.

Sounds like a baked beans commercial. NO RULES ON AISLE 3!!! [:D]

Joelski
9 May 2016, 12:44
Because OP was considering a RCA BCG. My experience is that RCA is run by an asshole, and the parts are not the most precisely machined. It's not a Noveske part. It's a part with the Maltese cross lasered onto it and sold by Noveske.

Point taken. I've never dealt with them, but I've heard plenty of people say those guys are knobs.

Joelski
9 May 2016, 12:54
Phosphate vs. QPQ is like a dry vs. soft serve dump.

With QPQ, you wipe once and it shines. Clean as a whistle.

With Phosphate, you wipe and wipe and black powder keeps coming off.

Yes, the meds are exceptional today! Satan made Mondays, God made quitting time! [:D]

Slippers
9 May 2016, 13:11
What's the cost of the lmt carriers?

Retail is about $140 I believe. They aren't cheap.

http://www.lmtstore.com/parts/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/556-enhanced-fa-bolt-carrier.html

Joelski
9 May 2016, 13:14
How does it increase dwell time? How does weight and the additional ports influence it?

The FNG
9 May 2016, 13:52
Order the noveske barrel with a matched bolt. G&r carries colt carriers without the bolt. Done!

I would say that this is a good option. I sourced carriers from IraqGunz on M4C and bought bolts from Noveske on my other builds. I bought the small parts from BCM. They have been flawless so far...

There's so many different paths you could take on the BCG, it's overwhelming. I really don't buy into the fancy coatings, but whatever floats your boat ... As long as it's reliable.

Slippers
9 May 2016, 15:02
How does it increase dwell time? How does weight and the additional ports influence it?

The cam track is different so the bolt unlocks further back in the cycle.

Joelski
9 May 2016, 15:10
The cam track is different so the bolt unlocks further back in the cycle.

Gotcha, thanks!

rxer311
9 May 2016, 20:39
Thanks for all of the replies. I do like the QPQ coatings as I do find them easier to clean and run smoother than the phosphate counterparts. Like I said, I have used some of the AIM surplus BCG's with the melonite coating and have really liked them. If you read the spec sheets between them and the RCA Noveske marked BCG, they seem to spec out with each other, with the AIM BCG at half the cost. I would like to build with 100% noveske parts, however, with the track record of RCA as mentioned by everybody else here, it doesn't sound like the prudent way to move forward.

JGifford
9 May 2016, 23:28
But alas, it does not have the improved cam pin track and additional exhaust ports found on the LMT enhanced carrier.

I'm still divided on that. It is different, yes. but is it better? Why/why not? It depends on the gas-system length, for one. I am leery of changing things considering that people have had issues with that change, with some configurations, as I understand it. Besides, what is it supposedly fixing? broken bolts, is what I am guessing.

I have yet to hear of ANYONE breaking one of Guy's bolts in his QPQ BCG. When I say "Guy's". I mean anyone who brands the same BCG as he's using. I know guys with well over 30K on them, run hard, and they are doing great. I know of guns with nearly 15K rounds of M855A1 on them. Running fine. I have posted all over the 'net "They are unbreakable!" because I know it's inflammatory, and the internet lives to piss in cheerios. So far, my cheerios remain edible.

JGifford
9 May 2016, 23:32
Point taken. I've never dealt with them, but I've heard plenty of people say those guys are knobs.
Sadly, it's not "those guys". It's JUST ONE OF THEM. Chris Cerino, or however you spell his name. Shade, the other guy, last I dealt with him, was a polite fountain of knowledge on the QPQ process, and a great human being. I am very sad that Chris has taken over customer support. He should stay back in the stock room or on the range or something, and let Shade answer the phone. It really has hurt RCA,. IMO

n4p226r
10 May 2016, 03:16
Does any factory built noveske even come with the RCA bolt? I haven't seen any. Maybe the NST rifles?

Slippers
10 May 2016, 03:44
I'm still divided on that. It is different, yes. but is it better? Why/why not? It depends on the gas-system length, for one. I am leery of changing things considering that people have had issues with that change, with some configurations, as I understand it. Besides, what is it supposedly fixing? broken bolts, is what I am guessing.

I have yet to hear of ANYONE breaking one of Guy's bolts in his QPQ BCG. When I say "Guy's". I mean anyone who brands the same BCG as he's using. I know guys with well over 30K on them, run hard, and they are doing great. I know of guns with nearly 15K rounds of M855A1 on them. Running fine. I have posted all over the 'net "They are unbreakable!" because I know it's inflammatory, and the internet lives to piss in cheerios. So far, my cheerios remain edible.

The LMT e-carrier makes a big difference with suppressed use. Less gas blow back from the barrel, which in turn keeps the bolt group cleaner and also results in less gas to your face.

I don't know/care if it lengthens bolt life.

The FNG
10 May 2016, 06:56
Does any factory built noveske even come with the RCA bolt? I haven't seen any. Maybe the NST rifles?

I believe their special 3-gun or team rifles do, yes.

ROG
10 May 2016, 19:22
Does any factory built noveske even come with the RCA bolt? I haven't seen any. Maybe the NST rifles?

Dealers can have Noveske build with the RCA BCG. I actually had them build me a batch of Gen III 14.5" Skinny's with their RCA BCG.

JGifford
11 May 2016, 01:41
Dealers can have Noveske build with the RCA BCG. I actually had them build me a batch of Gen III 14.5" Skinny's with their RCA BCG.

But...do you want that? I had an RCA BCG, and the bolt was a poor fit in every other rifle I tried it in. If you chambered a round and tried to clear it, you almost had to mortar it. The bolt was in spec, per the company I sent it to for testing, but they said it was also all over the place. One spec may be minimum, the other maximum. I personally feel that unless it's an all-out precision rifle, headspacing to a specific bolt makes no sense. Put my headspace mid-spec, please, and I'll run whatever I want within reason, IMO

JGifford
11 May 2016, 01:42
The LMT e-carrier makes a big difference with suppressed use. Less gas blow back from the barrel, which in turn keeps the bolt group cleaner and also results in less gas to your face.

I don't know/care if it lengthens bolt life.

I did some reading up on it. Seems LMT intended it for 14.5 and 16" carbine gas systems. With a properly gassed weapon, it may limit function un-suppressed. It would be interesting to T&E on my DDM4 though, as overgassed as that beast is.

SINNER
11 May 2016, 04:57
Does any factory built noveske even come with the RCA bolt? I haven't seen any. Maybe the NST rifles?

Pretty sure that they used stock on hand many times in the past. My Recce rifle and a Rogue Hunter upper both came with Noveske marked RCA BCG's. A Recce a friend owns has a phosphate BCG. Both rifles were purchased from the same dealer a few months apart.

Slippers
11 May 2016, 05:01
I did some reading up on it. Seems LMT intended it for 14.5 and 16" carbine gas systems. With a properly gassed weapon, it may limit function un-suppressed. It would be interesting to T&E on my DDM4 though, as overgassed as that beast is.

It works great on SBRs. Iraqgunz uses them on all his rifles, too. As far as we know, BCM correctly gases their barrels, and my 11.5 runs like a top both suppressed and unsuppressed, with the full array of 5.56 pressure ammo down to weak .223 Wolf/Tula steel.

JGifford
11 May 2016, 19:04
It works great on SBRs. Iraqgunz uses them on all his rifles, too. As far as we know, BCM correctly gases their barrels, and my 11.5 runs like a top both suppressed and unsuppressed, with the full array of 5.56 pressure ammo down to weak .223 Wolf/Tula steel.

Same for a friend of mine's BCM.

n4p226r
12 May 2016, 12:34
It works great on SBRs. Iraqgunz uses them on all his rifles, too. As far as we know, BCM correctly gases their barrels, and my 11.5 runs like a top both suppressed and unsuppressed, with the full array of 5.56 pressure ammo down to weak .223 Wolf/Tula steel.

Doesn't he use an a5 buffer on all his stuff too? I'd imagine the w
Two working together may yield different results as well

Slippers
12 May 2016, 13:01
Doesn't he use an a5 buffer on all his stuff too? I'd imagine the w
Two working together may yield different results as well

Yes, he likes the A5H4 buffer paired with the LMT e-carrier and green spinco. I personally stick to A5H2 and colt spring.

SINNER
12 May 2016, 14:15
Your ASR sounds like my last three Trifecta MAAD mounts. :)

I had so many issues I was ready to buy a Surefire can and move on. The ASR saved it. My Trifecta MAAD would be impossible to remove sometimes even if I didn't shoot the rifle on my 5.56 muzzle devices. On my .308 bolt gun, it would always loosen up after one shot. No matter how hard I cranked it on. Silencerco sent me three different Trifecta MAAD mounts, replaced several of my Trifecta muzzle devices, and finally swapped it all out for ASR parts.

Both styles are more maintence dependent than any other mounts I've used but both cause less shift than any I've tried other than direct thread. I'll take that trade. Nickel anti seize is a must on both styles IMO.

DeviantLogic
12 May 2016, 16:20
I haven't had any issues with my Saker 762 / Trifecta and have about 1000 rounds through it (using on both AR & 308 bolt gun), but I've heard of other people having the same problems as Slippers. Have a Saker 556 on order...hopefully it won't have any issues. SilencerCo's customer service has been awesome to deal with...so not too worried about it.

Slippers
12 May 2016, 19:16
There's a pretty big thread on m4c that shows a lot of other people with problems. One guy even had his brand new can go down range on the very first round through it. Also a few people that said everything was great and then weeks/months later chime back in with issues (including me).

I have had very repeatable POI shift with the ASR mount. It's not as slick as the Trifecta, but it hasn't given me a single problem.

I'm tempted to make our own MAAD mount that interfaces with Thunderbeast taper mounts, and also do one for the Omega.

JGifford
14 May 2016, 17:34
Yes, he likes the A5H4 buffer paired with the LMT e-carrier and green spinco. I personally stick to A5H2 and colt spring.

I used to use the Vltor milspec slring, but had reliability issues with return to battery. The sprinco green fixed it completely.