PDA

View Full Version : Thumbs Up for Ballistic Advantage Barrels



usbp379
9 July 2016, 16:22
Who's been using Ballistic Advantage barrels? I have a 5.56 Hanson profile on a S&W rebuild and a mid-length pencil barrel on another. I've been really pleased with both especially for the money.

Recently I rebarreled my Ruger AR556 (their budget entry direct impingement rifle) with a 16" .gov profile. It has been working well. But I just took advantage of their 4th of July sale and ordered the new 16" carbine gas pencil barrel. This should shave an additional five ounces off the gun.

The barrel has shipped and I should receive it Monday. I'll throw some pictures up as soon as I can.

UWone77
10 July 2016, 01:19
I have several, including some Aero Precision marked ones. The 10.5's so far have run pretty well. No issues so far. Good pricing, option of a pinned gas block, not a whole lot not to like about them.

mustangfreek
10 July 2016, 03:06
Just picked my first BA barrel , 16" gov/middie hoping to get it together and out soon.

Dstrbdmedic167
10 July 2016, 04:13
Been using a 17.7" with good results. It's a shooter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

usbp379
10 July 2016, 05:11
Has anyone tested and verified the claims that nitride works as well or even outperforms chrome lining?

It would be an interesting experiment to take a new BA barrel and compare it to something like a new. Colt 6920 barrel. Shoot each with the same ammo and clean using the same tools and solvents. Shoot 5,000 rounds or something and see if one barrel is holding up better than another.

On a related note I thought Daniel Defense used to offer some nitrided barrels but I don't see anything offered on the website. Did they drop nitride in favor of chrome for durability or something else? Or did I imagine the whole DD thing?

Slippers
10 July 2016, 06:59
Has anyone tested and verified the claims that nitride works as well or even outperforms chrome lining?

It would be an interesting experiment to take a new BA barrel and compare it to something like a new. Colt 6920 barrel. Shoot each with the same ammo and clean using the same tools and solvents. Shoot 5,000 rounds or something and see if one barrel is holding up better than another.

On a related note I thought Daniel Defense used to offer some nitrided barrels but I don't see anything offered on the website. Did they drop nitride in favor of chrome for durability or something else? Or did I imagine the whole DD thing?

Shooting 10,000 rounds for testing the durability of a chrome lined vs nitride barrel is why nobody has done it. A new barrel is $200 (or less). 10,000 rounds of ammo is about $3,000. Plus 99% of people shoot less than 200 rounds a year (let alone 5,000+ out of one barrel). Considering the BCM filthy 14 (or 21?) was still grouping okay after 20,000+ with a chrome lined barrel, there's not much to worry about.

Nitride has several advantages over chrome lining on paper, plus many manufacturers have been using it for years without any issues and very long barrel life. You can't go wrong either way.

usbp379
10 July 2016, 07:19
Shooting 10,000 rounds for testing the durability of a chrome lined vs nitride barrel is why nobody has done it. A new barrel is $200 (or less). 10,000 rounds of ammo is about $3,000. Plus 99% of people shoot less than 200 rounds a year (let alone 5,000+ out of one barrel). Considering the BCM filthy 14 (or 21?) was still grouping okay after 20,000+ with a chrome lined barrel, there's not much to worry about.

Nitride has several advantages over chrome lining on paper, plus many manufacturers have been using it for years without any issues and very long barrel life. You can't go wrong either way.

I know these things. But is the "hype" around nitriding just that? Is it something that's cheaper to work with than chrome and, therefore, better?

Truth is we all want hammer forged barrels with chrome or some other treatment to help prevent corrosion and increase longevity but most shooters would be just as well off with a plain old unlined barrel. And 4140 steel.

PS--Not trying to dog you but I wonder if nitriding is more of a marketing gimmick.

And, for the record, I have barrels that're chromed and barrels that're nitrided. Both have worked well for me.

alamo5000
10 July 2016, 07:29
I asked Ballistic Advantage about the life of their barrels and they said under normal use you will get 15,000++ rounds through it.

I don't know the life of CHF chrome lined barrels but that should give you an indication.

BoilerUp
10 July 2016, 08:30
I know these things. But is the "hype" around nitriding just that? Is it something that's cheaper to work with than chrome and, therefore, better?

Truth is we all want hammer forged barrels with chrome or some other treatment to help prevent corrosion and increase longevity but most shooters would be just as well off with a plain old unlined barrel. And 4140 steel.

PS--Not trying to dog you but I wonder if nitriding is more of a marketing gimmick.

And, for the record, I have barrels that're chromed and barrels that're nitrided. Both have worked well for me.

I don't think it is a marketing gimmick at all. It's a well known manufacturing process that has been around for a long time. It happens to cost less and be easier than chrome lining, meaning you can get a barrel that costs less and has the capability to perform as well or better than CL. Remember, Chrome Lining was a solution to a problem. QPQ solves the same problem for a lower cost.

I have a BA 8.5" stainless barrel in 300 BLK that I bought with the pinned gas block. Shoots great and the gas system is perfectly tuned. Hard to comment on accuracy since it's a pistol build and I run a cheap RDS, but I can get dime sized groups at 25 yards when I shoot with a rest and take my time.

5pins
10 July 2016, 10:13
I wonder what their criteria for the 15000 round barrel life is. Accuracy, or something else?

alamo5000
10 July 2016, 11:19
Not trying to dog you but I wonder if nitriding is more of a marketing gimmick.

I've done a bit of looking into barrels and me and my OCD self doesn't think it's a marketing gimmick at all.

Based on my personal research the thing that makes a good barrel is the people who make the barrel. Being sloppy and not paying attention to detail (or vice versa) trumps a whole lot of other stuff.

As for materials they use to make barrels some are much easier to deal with. It's easier to make a nearly perfect bore with material A vs material B and it can be done in a fraction of the time to much greater tolerances and at a cheaper price.

For your average joe on the street with a semi auto for him to run through 15.000 rounds is going to take a while. That said if you are getting down to brass tacks about it it seems like they are making barrels tailor made to their main market.

If we were all shooting machine guns and had unlimited ammo then the type of barrel choice would be different.

But under normal use a barrel is a wear out part... they are making great barrels using great materials that are easy to work with but deliver in many cases superior performance. It just depends on what your definition of 'performance' is.

Basically trying to always say you need to slap a pain-in-the-ass to make CHF chrome lined machine gun ready barrel on every gun out there merely on the criteria that it might last longer isn't always the best option.

On the flip side having a properly made barrel that is made out of easier to work with materials, that is cheaper, and more precise (and technically could be more accurate), and has more than sufficient barrel life for 90% of the shooting community... I say why not?

At the end of the day we have to look at the total package of what is being delivered and what demands are being placed on it.

Slippers
10 July 2016, 11:39
Hammer forged barrels are easier to make, but the investment in machinery is crazy expensive. There's only a few companies in the USA that have the capability, including FN and Daniel Defense.

alamo5000
10 July 2016, 12:08
Hammer forged barrels are easier to make, but the investment in machinery is crazy expensive. There's only a few companies in the USA that have the capability, including FN and Daniel Defense.

If you had to estimate, what are we talking? 100K? 200K? Or more than that?

Also since I have never made a barrel what would you think the tool up cost to make other kinds of barrels would be in relation to that?

(asking for my own knowledge here)

usbp379
10 July 2016, 12:12
If you had to estimate, what are we talking? 100K? 200K? Or more than that?

Also since I have never made a barrel what would you think the tool up cost to make other kinds of barrels would be in relation to that?

(asking for my own knowledge here)
Closer to $1,000,000 is what I've heard.

Ruger, Remington, FN, Daniel Defense make their own hammer forged barrels. There may be a few others.

alamo5000
10 July 2016, 12:21
Closer to $1,000,000 is what I've heard.

Ruger, Remington, FN, Daniel Defense make their own hammer forged barrels. There may be a few others.

If it's a million bucks for just an initial cost outlay not including labor or raw materials... they would have to make a whole lot of barrels to turn a profit...

Now I am kind of curious as to the comparative non CHF types of barrels...what would the general outlay for tooling up for those be?

usbp379
10 July 2016, 12:33
It used to be (might still be) that something like 80% of the hammer forged barrels purchased and used as OEM came from Ruger. LWRC used Ruger barrels for years.

usbp379
10 July 2016, 12:38
Spike's had their CHF barrel line that came from FN.

Joelski
10 July 2016, 12:55
If it's a million bucks for just an initial cost outlay not including labor or raw materials... they would have to make a whole lot of barrels to turn a profit...

Now I am kind of curious as to the comparative non CHF types of barrels...what would the general outlay for tooling up for those be?

A lot of these hammer forges are close to, or over a hundred years old. Many are bought in Europe and supported by tool makers as the parts supply died decades ago. Those are the cheapest the machines can be had, and are adapted for barrel making and operated by people. The new CNC axial cold hammer forging machines come with a host of automation accessories like hydraulic arm bots that eliminate the human, cutting down on cost and injury exposure. The argument goes back and forth over CHF vs. button rifled barrels, but it comes down to QC and not cutting corners through the entire process.

Timepiece > Toaster, but both have the capacity to be either.

Question for the knowledgeable: The term "Criterion" is known to audiophiles to be of original recording quality. Criterion albums (Now DVD's) often use gold as the recording medium as its better than the mylar typical CD's are burned on. Does the term have the same application to the firearms community, or is it just a name for a manufacturer?

Joelski
10 July 2016, 12:57
Closer to $1,000,000 is what I've heard..

I'm gonna guess that the latest, top of the line CNC stuff is hitting 40+ Mil. That's why there's so few of them and most are old as the hills!

usbp379
10 July 2016, 13:15
Makes me wonder how much stuff out there advertised as "built to our exacting standards" is made by someone else.

usbp379
10 July 2016, 13:26
I wonder what their criteria for the 15000 round barrel life is. Accuracy, or something else?
I'd like to know too. And what comprises normal use?

As I said in my original post; I like Ballistic Advantage. They have a very good selection of lengths and profiles and offer both stainless and CMV barrels.

Aragorn
10 July 2016, 13:51
I'm gonna guess that the latest, top of the line CNC stuff is hitting 40+ Mil. That's why there's so few of them and most are old as the hills!

Not even. The giant CNC machines the Air Force uses, and are big enough to park a car in, are in the 2'ish million range. Most are not THAT big or THAT expensive.

SINNER
11 July 2016, 00:18
It used to be (might still be) that something like 80% of the hammer forged barrels purchased and used as OEM came from Ruger. LWRC used Ruger barrels for years.

Sure do. Overpriced garbage.

CHF barrels are without question more durable than nitrided.

And all the "nitriding" talk brings up a big pet peeve of mine. Speaking of nitriding as a simple, singular process in comparison is impossible. The type of nitriding used dictates its durability and lubrosity. The differences between the types can vary as much as different types of coatings. Like saying house paint is equal to Cerakote because by definition the are both a type of paint.

As far as BA barrels go they have proven to be a nice budget barrel to me. Although their QC for the in house machine work seems to have some issues. Last purchase from them was for 2 Creedmoor barrels and I decided to save some time and have them pin the gas blocks. Bad idea as both blocks were pinned off axis by 10-12*.

usbp379
11 July 2016, 01:46
Who is Ballistic Advantage getting blanks from?

usbp379
12 July 2016, 13:56
New barrel received and installed. Shaved 6.4 ounces off the rifle. Nice!

I did the 10yd zero and there were no surprises. Now to get it on paper at longer range...

UWone77
12 July 2016, 14:39
Makes me wonder how much stuff out there advertised as "built to our exacting standards" is made by someone else.

Virtually everyone.

usbp379
12 July 2016, 14:44
Virtually everyone.
So next logical question would be what makes a Wilson better than a Noveske or a BCM better than a Colt? Probably lots of brand loyalty to a company that just assembles parts that all come from a handful of suppliers.

usbp379
14 July 2016, 13:52
I shot 18 rounds through the BA barrel this morning to get it dialed in. I used some Federal Fusion, Federal 69gr Gold Medal and IMI 77gr ammo for sight in.

Here is an overall view of my target. I fired three rounds from a slung/seated position at 50yds to confirm my 10yd zero then moved back to 100 yards. I'm using an Aimpoint with a 2moa dot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0560_zpsagtlsxt3.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0560_zpsagtlsxt3.jpg.html)

After this I moved back to 100 yards and shot prone with a rolled up shooting pad for a rest.

Here is five rounds of Federal Fusion with a fired casing set alongside for reference:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0557_zpsrybnfre9.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0557_zpsrybnfre9.jpg.html)

I then fired five rounds of the 69gr Match. Again, with a casing set next to the group for an overall size reference.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0558_zpsdwsi9ftg.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0558_zpsdwsi9ftg.jpg.html)

Then I finished off the short range session with 77gr Israeli. This stuff seemed to shoot the best which probably isn't too big a surprise.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0559_zps7gg0ucir.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tokarev/media/Ruger%20AR556/KIMG0559_zps7gg0ucir.jpg.html)

I could have no doubt turned in some more impressive groups shooting from a solid shooting bench and with a magnified optic. A target more conducive to precision would have likely also helped. Still, I'm pleased with what I'm seeing from the gun, optic and ammo.

BoilerUp
14 July 2016, 19:37
Which barrel was that? That's very good performance given the target and optic.

alamo5000
14 July 2016, 20:17
Which barrel was that? That's very good performance given the target and optic.

I agree 110%. Given the optic and target and style and all that...damn. Pretty good no matter how you slice it.

Impressive for sure.

My only other comment would be 'what's the purpose of the rifle'? If it's a minute of man shooter you're after then you got that more than covered. You will have a wide variety of ammo that you can easily use if that's what your end goal is.

usbp379
15 July 2016, 01:37
Which barrel was that? That's very good performance given the target and optic.
http://ballisticadvantage.com/16-inch-556-gov-pencil-carbine-cmv-modern-barrel.html

usbp379
15 July 2016, 01:51
My only other comment would be 'what's the purpose of the rifle'? If it's a minute of man shooter you're after then you got that more than covered. You will have a wide variety of ammo that you can easily use if that's what your end goal is.

I didn't really have a goal when the mods started.

The host firearm is a Ruger AR556 that worked fine and shot okay but I didn't like the plastic carbine handguards. I thought I'd replace these with a VTAC delta rail. The VTAC didn't fit because the Ruger uses a proprietary front sight base.

My original plan was to modify the Ruger FSB to clear the internal cuts on the VTAC. This worked but I soon decided the barrel was too heavy. Ruger is using a barrel that's probably close to a Colt SOCOM barrel in profile.

Next I replaced the factory barrel with a Ballistic Advantage M4 barrel. This took some weight off and I would have been content to leave the gun as-is had BA not just released the pencil profile carbine barrel.

So my end result is an AR that's 8.4 pounds with a sling and optic attached. Not the lightest gun in the world but usable in a variety of formats. I'll probably use it next time the local club has a 3gun match.

Aragorn
15 July 2016, 02:26
So how's she look with the new pencil barrel?

usbp379
15 July 2016, 02:42
So how's she look with the new pencil barrel?
About the same since all but the last bit of barrel is covered by the forend.

I'll grab a photo once the sun comes up.

usbp379
17 July 2016, 06:14
8.4 pounds as pictured.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160717/e79f441721da71523964ae2e83d54e25.jpg

Aragorn
17 July 2016, 12:37
Pretty wild looking weapon. What's that in front of the rear sight?

alamo5000
17 July 2016, 12:48
Pretty wild looking weapon. What's that in front of the rear sight?

Maybe it's one of those pic rail mounted brass catcher things? I don't know. I am curious now too. :)

usbp379
18 July 2016, 15:00
That's a base for a PVS-14.