9mm AR vs .300 Blackout

[alamo5000]

I have several irons in the fire and builds that I am planning out. Keep in mind I am talking about 'long term' here, IE the less cash I have the longer the term of the project [:D]

I have my franken 10/22 that I am building.
I have my Kidd Custom 10/22 that I am building.
I will buy a CMT .308 reciever set and do a build eventually with that.

One area that I am stuck on is the case to be made for a 'quiet' gun. Here is what I have in mind, but I would also like to get forum input in the specifics here.

The gun would be for 50 yards and in but there is a side by side case to be made for each.

Pros for .300BO
I already have an SBR'ed lower and a suppressor that can accommodate subsonic ammo.
It's a platform that has been proven consistent. (correct me if I am wrong)
I won't have to buy new mags etc etc.

Cons for .300 BO
Long term cost of shooting (extremely big consideration)
Going into yet another caliber for reloading
Probably will need certain types of powder for reloading whereas 9mm is much more diverse.
Questionable terminal ballistics (subsonic) for HD situations

Pros for a 9mm SBR
Cost of shooting is substantially less and there is a much wider and available selection of projectiles.
I can shoot supers or subs with my can no questions asked
MUCH easier to reload
I won't have any 'off caliber' stuff or even a new caliber to deal with. 9mm is 9mm regardless of the host and in a pinch I can buy off the shelf ammo almost anywhere.
I have a feeling that I would shoot a 9mm SBR way more than a .300BO for a number of reasons
For terminal ballistics I can buy off the shelf 124 or 147 grain hollow points and be good to go. While I never plan to shoot anyone ever it would be kind of nice to have those couple of 'special mags' ready to go.

Cons for a 9mm SBR
It would be a ground up build (for an AR)
I would need to SBR another lower
The system might still have kinks in it.

I am sure I have left off a whole lot out of this discussion but you get the idea. I have a feeling I would shoot the hell out a 9mm AR because of 1. the fun factor and 2. the cost of shooting is waaay lower.

Does the 9mm AR still have bugs in the system? How reliable is it? If there are kinks, what are they and how or has anyone overcame those things yet?

It would be a higher initial cost to get into a 9mm AR but after about 3 or 4 cases of ammo that would be MORE than made up for. I just think as a long term investment in shooting fun the 9mm AR will be a better value. In other words I am leaning that way but I would like to have a discussion on everything from terminal ballistics- to accuracy- to reliability- to reloading or whatever else there is between these two options.

There is also the option to get a Sig or a CZ and SBR it so let's throw that in the mix too.

What do you guys think? I am all ears for opinions. Once I decide on something it will help determine my future course of action.

[alamo5000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdI3CHmvJZI

[alamo5000]

I have also heard that CMT Tactical is going to make 9mm upper/lower sets so if anyone has info on that please post it up. (I am looking at you Uwone[:D])

[alamo5000]

Basically I can easily envision myself forking out the dough (and borrowing a friend's progressive press) and churning the holy hell out of 9mm. For $1000 bucks or so I could easily keep a stash of 10,000 rounds of 9mm that I could use in a whole host of weapons. For 10,000 rounds of subsonic blackout... I don't think it would be anywhere near that cheap nor diverse.

Having guns out the wazoo but no ammo = no bueno.

To me it just makes way more sense to with a 9mm build or buy of some sort but I am leaning more towards the 9mm AR. At the same time I know next to nothing about 9mm AR's or what it takes to get into it or make it run or how finicky it will be.

[fledge]

If you live in a free state, I'd pick up the MPX and get the 9mm covered. Lots if good reports of the gen 2. I don't live in a free state, so I'm waiting for CMT to release theirs (they've been teasing since January!!!) so I can use my glock mags.

[Joelski]

Beg to differ. I have plenty of 9 mm pistols and feel a 9 mil AR would be a step down both in terms of fun and terminal ballistics. The 300 will edge the 9 in range, though they're both bullet drop champions, and the 300 would be quieter, with the appropriate can.

[Joelski]

Also, diversity of the 9 mm is not a con for the 300. That should go in your pro 9 mm column to keep your analysis objective.

[alamo5000]

If you live in a free state, I'd pick up the MPX and get the 9mm covered. Lots if good reports of the gen 2. I don't live in a free state, so I'm waiting for CMT to release theirs (they've been teasing since January!!!) so I can use my glock mags.

I am in Texas so I don't have to worry about that part of it. I absolutely love Sig pistols (although other stuff is growing on me too) but I have little to no experience with other products they offer.

I am extremely tempted (and have been for some time now) to jump on the MPX but in the back of my mind I am not sure if I would like the AR9 better.

It's really down to those two I guess. That said if I can customize a gun and build it from the ground up with generally generic parts that seems a bit more appealing than proprietary everything.

At the end of the day it's a tough choice, but I would want to make an educated choice and I don't know anything about what parts go into an AR9.

FWIW I like the Sig magazines a lot better though.

[alamo5000]

Beg to differ. I have plenty of 9 mm pistols and feel a 9 mil AR would be a step down both in terms of fun and terminal ballistics. The 300 will edge the 9 in range, though they're both bullet drop champions, and the 300 would be quieter, with the appropriate can.

Eventually (like way eventually) unless I win the lottery I will have a dedicated .30 cal can (mainly for the above mentioned .308 build) but also for any other long range guns I might get into. I am window shopping on some potential longer range bolt guns too. I guess I could slap that on a .300 BO but when that happens might be a while (1 or 2 years from now).

The only 9mm rifle I've ever shot was a friend's MP5. If I could afford one of those...holy sh** batman.... I would be on it like white on rice. Those 3 round bursts and full auto mag dumps are wood inspiring.

I've never shot a .300 blackout but at the end of the day cost to shoot it would still be substantially higher. I have also never shot an AR9 either but just logistically speaking 9mm seems to be winning out for what I am considering (once you put in all the factors).

[alamo5000]

Also, diversity of the 9 mm is not a con for the 300. That should go in your pro 9 mm column to keep your analysis objective.

Point taken.

We can put whatever we want in either column. That's what I am after... is feedback.

That said if the 9mm doesn't live up to what I am expecting out of it I could possibly speed up a .30 cal can purchase...

[BoilerUp]

First off, we all know the real question isn't "which?", but "which first?" [:D]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TNtpwNq/0/X2/i-TNtpwNq-X2.jpg

I got into the 300 BLK first, as I thought it would make a for a good home defense setup (SBR'd and suppressed). Given that you already have an SBR lower and a suppressor, this seems like the cheap and easy next step for you. While I still enjoy my 300 BLK pistol and still plan to SBR it and pick up a suppressor, I'm not quite as enamored with the round as I was when I first got into it, primarily for the reason you mentioned above: subsonic terminal ballistics. For defensive ammo, you are better off with supers, such as the Barnes TAC-TX, which negates part of the attractiveness of the caliber. I got into 6.8 SPC after the 300 BLK and if I'm going to have to run supers anyway, I'd rather have the 6.8 whenever I care about terminal performance. That said, the 300 is a softer shooting round, but my mental model for the BLK is basically that it is a magnum pistol caliber.

On the 9mm: I think a suppressed 9mm SBR is about the perfect home defense weapon and the MP5 reigned supreme in this category for decades. I was saving my pennies to buy one (well, a clone) until I saw Sig's announcement regarding the MPX. I waited patiently and kept saving my pennies and picked up a Gen2 recently. It's awesome. Same ergos and manual of arms as the AR so it's instantly familiar and my muscle memory applies. I love HK roller-locks, but I think Sig knocked it out of the park with the MPX and rendered the MP5 obsolete (although I still want one for the collection!). I considered an AR9, but you end up with a lot of proprietary choices and high end components are going to push you over $1,000 anyway. So, for the 9mm, I decided that a factory gun is probably the best course of action. Terminal performance of 147gr Gold Dots is pretty well documented.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Xc5VDTf/0/X2/i-Xc5VDTf-X2.jpg

Either is going to get the job done. The 300 BLK let's you easily build your own. It seems the AR world has turned its attention to 9mm lately and there is a lot of innovation happening there, but it seems even more confusing than the AR10/SR25 world. I'd suggest taking a hard look at the MPX if you choose to pursue a 9mm.

[alamo5000]

First off, we all know the real question isn't "which?", but "which first?" [:D]

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TNtpwNq/0/X2/i-TNtpwNq-X2.jpg

I got into the 300 BLK first, as I thought it would make a for a good home defense setup (SBR'd and suppressed). Given that you already have an SBR lower and a suppressor, this seems like the cheap and easy next step for you. While I still enjoy my 300 BLK pistol and still plan to SBR it and pick up a suppressor, I'm not quite as enamored with the round as I was when I first got into it, primarily for the reason you mentioned above: subsonic terminal ballistics. For defensive ammo, you are better off with supers, such as the Barnes TAC-TX, which negates part of the attractiveness of the caliber. I got into 6.8 SPC after the 300 BLK and if I'm going to have to run supers anyway, I'd rather have the 6.8 whenever I care about terminal performance. That said, the 300 is a softer shooting round, but my mental model for the BLK is basically that it is a magnum pistol caliber.

On the 9mm: I think a suppressed 9mm SBR is about the perfect home defense weapon and the MP5 reigned supreme in this category for decades. I was saving my pennies to buy one (well, a clone) until I saw Sig's announcement regarding the MPX. I waited patiently and kept saving my pennies and picked up a Gen2 recently. It's awesome. Same ergos and manual of arms as the AR so it's instantly familiar and my muscle memory applies. I love HK roller-locks, but I think Sig knocked it out of the park with the MPX and rendered the MP5 obsolete (although I still want one for the collection!). I considered an AR9, but you end up with a lot of proprietary choices and high end components are going to push you over $1,000 anyway. So, for the 9mm, I decided that a factory gun is probably the best course of action. Terminal performance of 147gr Gold Dots is pretty well documented.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Xc5VDTf/0/X2/i-Xc5VDTf-X2.jpg

Either is going to get the job done. The 300 BLK let's you easily build your own. It seems the AR world has turned its attention to 9mm lately and there is a lot of innovation happening there, but it seems even more confusing than the AR10/SR25 world. I'd suggest taking a hard look at the MPX if you choose to pursue a 9mm.

Wow. Very Very interesting post. Thank you.


I considered an AR9, but you end up with a lot of proprietary choices and high end components are going to push you over $1,000 anyway. So, for the 9mm, I decided that a factory gun is probably the best course of action.

This is what I need to learn. How you figure you are going to have proprietary parts on an AR9? Such as?

As I said I am not very familiar with the AR9 and what all goes into the soup but I was thinking of it more in terms of modularity like a standard AR15.

Would you mind expanding a little bit about that point right there? Don't AR9's use a lot of standard AR15 parts? (Such as triggers or whatnot)...when we get into proprietary stuff what exactly are we talking about here?

[alamo5000]

First off, we all know the real question isn't "which?", but "which first?" [:D]

True! LOL!!!

That said I really am trying to become very judicious in my ammo control/supply situation. Having calibers out the ying yang makes life a pain in the ass sometimes.

Not saying that I won't ever expand into new calibers but for now I am trying to stock up and shoot within my budget.

I am going to take another look at that MPX and see what I can see as far as barrel length options and so forth. The last time I looked (online) the stocks were impossible to come by...and if I get one 90%+ chance it will be SBR'ed. I also want to see what my barrel length options are.

Depending on the realities of an AR9 the Sig definitely could find a home.

[BoilerUp]

I'm not an expert on the AR9, but I wouldn't assume you can swap / interchange uppers, lowers, and BCGs across the board. Maybe I'm wrong, but PSA has some warnings on their website. So, if I was going to build an AR-9, I'd probably get everything from the same manufacturer just to be sure.

Spare parts, including barrels, for the MPX are still pretty hard to come buy, but now you can get the 8" and 16" uppers as well as the standard and PDW stocks. I don't think the 4" barrels are available yet. Sig's getting stuff into the market, it's just slow. I've even seen MPX lower assemblies for sale on gunbroker, so you can break up your purchase. Personally, I want the 8" barrel with the carbine length handguard to shroud a suppressor. Some day.

[alamo5000]

I'm not an expert on the AR9, but I wouldn't assume you can swap / interchange uppers, lowers, and BCGs across the board. Maybe I'm wrong, but PSA has some warnings on their website. So, if I was going to build an AR-9, I'd probably get everything from the same manufacturer just to be sure.

Spare parts, including barrels, for the MPX are still pretty hard to come buy, but now you can get the 8" and 16" uppers as well as the standard and PDW stocks. I don't think the 4" barrels are available yet. Sig's getting stuff into the market, it's just slow. I've even seen MPX lower assemblies for sale on gunbroker, so you can break up your purchase. Personally, I want the 8" barrel with the carbine length handguard to shroud a suppressor. Some day.

If I was going with the MPX I would probably outfit it like this...(or have these options)

4" barrel and an optional 8" barrel, both with a 3 lug adapter.

I am not sure of the ID of the hand guard but from what I recall it's pretty wide. Hopefully I could recess my GA Revolution 9 under the rail at least some. Maybe an inch or so with the 8" barrel. In the K configuration the 8" barrel + can would be about 14" total. With a 4" barrel it would give me about 10"+ some.

I have no idea what my options are on handguard lengths or if there are any options at all.

I would have a VFG on there but I am unfamiliar with how attachments go onto the MPX handguard. If it's just screws that go in there I wonder if they would protrude far enough out to hit the suppressor at any point?

I would also have a light on there. I bought an Arisaka light for my current SBR and I love it. It's mounted at the 10:30 position and that is just about perfect for me.

As far as future stocks go (once the form 1 comes back) I might lean towards the pdw type but I would again have to go fondle one to figure it all out.

Also with the Sig could I drop in a new trigger? Say for example if I wanted to use a CMC or something?

[Sak007]

If I was going to go the 9mm route I would have to go with Colt stick mags as the angle on the Glock mags looks retarded in my opinion but I'm plenty happy with my 300blk . That being said my next project is cutting down a 20in 44 mag lever gun to 16.5 to thread for a can [:D]

[alamo5000]

If I was going to go the 9mm route I would have to go with Colt stick mags as the angle on the Glock mags looks retarded in my opinion but I'm plenty happy with my 300blk . That being said my next project is cutting down a 20in 44 mag lever gun to 16.5 to thread for a can [:D]

That's one thing about the AR9... I am not a huge fan of how the mags look. The term 'ugly as sin' does come to mind [:D]

[Sak007]

That's one thing about the AR9... I am not a huge fan of how the mags look. The term 'ugly as sin' does come to mind [:D]
I was gonna sbr a Quarter Circle 10 Colt lower but I decided to hold out for the CMT but realized it was a Glock style and lost interest .

[alamo5000]

I was gonna sbr a Quarter Circle 10 Colt lower but I decided to hold out for the CMT but realized it was a Glock style and lost interest .

I'm not gonna lie... I wish SOMEBODY would make a 9mm mag for one of the things that isn't fugly.

I guess making mags is a little more complicated than I thought.

I guess I could just get a 50 or 100 round drum mag and see how that looks. [:D] It could have that tommy gun look to it maybe.

That honestly is one big plus for the Sig. Even though I don't know the whole set up and system to it yet, at least their mags aren't ugly as sin.

[alamo5000]

I wish I could get my hands on one of these:

1545

http://www.guns.com/2012/10/06/is-izhmash-actually-planning-to-export-a-9mm-carbine-to-the-us/

[fledge]

I was gonna sbr a Quarter Circle 10 Colt lower but I decided to hold out for the CMT but realized it was a Glock style and lost interest .

Why is that?

The glock mag is the only reason I'm even interested in the AR9.

[Sak007]

Why is that?

The glock mag is the only reason I'm even interested in the AR9.

I know I'm just being picky but the Glock mag just doesn't flow right it looks unnatural and forced unlike the lines with a colt mag
1546

[Joelski]

It's the same bullet as .308, so if you did both, you'd still be in a 9 mm scenario of sharing at least the most expensive part.

[Joelski]

Oh, and sear packs only run 8k-10k. You could buy those for $200 apiece before the 86 ban....

[Joelski]

And I think we should take a crook and shoot him from 3 yards to get real world CQ terminal ballistics input.

"We're going shoot you and you tell us which one of these two bullets hurts worse, mmkay?"

[SINNER]

Want this one. Looks 10x better than the Glock mags IMO.

1547

[Former11B]

And I think we should take a crook and shoot him from 3 yards to get real world CQ terminal ballistics input.

"We're going shoot you and you tell us which one of these two bullets hurts worse, mmkay?"

I don't want to get shot with a water gun filled with two week old dog pee but it doesn't necessarily make it a great option for HD use [BD]

And Alamo, you gotta call it 300 BLK before you get into one.


My take on it: if it's a plinking/range toy, I'd go 9mm all day long. I have a .308, so I can hunt with that or my 5.56 ARs (with the right ammo). I have suppressors and I reload, but have no desire to handload for a new caliber and have to worry with converting 5.56 brass or buying 300 BLK brass, and I don't have a need for the increased ballistics of suppressed 300BLK vs a subsonic 9mm since I'm not using it for HD or hunting. 300BLK is the answer to a question I personally never asked. So for me personally, 9mm would fit the niche. But, if someone out there would like a multi purpose hunting, defense, and suppressed shooting round, can afford to buy the ammo or can load it themselves, then 300BLK is a great way to fill a lot of different shoes with one rifle.

I'd go with Glock mags just due to availability. I already have a bunch so it makes sense. If I had Colt mags laying around, I'd go that route. The economy of the choice and maximizing the utility of what I already have is the only driving factor...not appearance.

[Joelski]

I'm not gonna lie... I wish SOMEBODY would make a 9mm mag for one of the things that isn't fugly.

I guess making mags is a little more complicated than I thought.

I guess I could just get a 50 or 100 round drum mag and see how that looks. [:D] It could have that tommy gun look to it maybe.

That honestly is one big plus for the Sig. Even though I don't know the whole set up and system to it yet, at least their mags aren't ugly as sin.

QC-10 makes their lowers in Glock AND HK, ya know. I don't think MP-5 mags would look too bad.

Oops! Sinner beat me to it. That's a sweet gun, I gotta say.

[fledge]

I know I'm just being picky but the Glock mag just doesn't flow right it looks unnatural and forced unlike the lines with a colt mag
1546

The ETS mags don't look too bad.

http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b556/fledge2000/Misc/4ACED114-7C4D-40C2-92AB-66913824769E_zpsgmgkqr83.jpg (http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/fledge2000/media/Misc/4ACED114-7C4D-40C2-92AB-66913824769E_zpsgmgkqr83.jpg.html)

But as I said above, if I were in a free state, I'd take the MPX, mags and all. Limited to 15rds, the glock mags make the most sense in my situation.

[n4p226r]

I'm not gonna lie... I wish SOMEBODY would make a 9mm mag for one of the things that isn't fugly.

I guess making mags is a little more complicated than I thought.

I guess I could just get a 50 or 100 round drum mag and see how that looks. [:D] It could have that tommy gun look to it maybe.

That honestly is one big plus for the Sig. Even though I don't know the whole set up and system to it yet, at least their mags aren't ugly as sin.

you guys have it all wrong. the issue with 9mm ARs is they are making the LOWER fit the 9mm and not the upper. I'm waiting for someone to make a proprietary 9mm upper that works on a standard AR lower and has mags that are the shape of a 30rd 5.56 mag. similar to how the 22lr mags are the same size. I don't care how proprietary the upper parts are, i just don't want to have to change anything with the lower except maybe a buffer and spring. and it has to work with geissele triggers. if i was smarter, rich, and knew mechanical engineering and CAD better than the two classes i took in solidworks 99 i'd develop it myself.

[fledge]

you guys have it all wrong. the issue with 9mm ARs is they are making the LOWER fit the 9mm and not the upper. I'm waiting for someone to make a proprietary 9mm upper that works on a standard AR lower and has mags that are the shape of a 30rd 5.56 mag. L

I'd get behind that. And the magazine as an insert that goes in a standard pmag. This can't be that hard.

CMT's upper will be an original design around the 9mm. If only it worked with an SSA lower...

[alamo5000]

you guys have it all wrong. the issue with 9mm ARs is they are making the LOWER fit the 9mm and not the upper. I'm waiting for someone to make a proprietary 9mm upper that works on a standard AR lower and has mags that are the shape of a 30rd 5.56 mag. similar to how the 22lr mags are the same size. I don't care how proprietary the upper parts are, i just don't want to have to change anything with the lower except maybe a buffer and spring. and it has to work with geissele triggers. if i was smarter, rich, and knew mechanical engineering and CAD better than the two classes i took in solidworks 99 i'd develop it myself.

BINGO! If that ever came to market there wouldn't even be a question. I would be all over it. Truth be told I was thinking the exact same thing this whole time but since it's not available...


I'd get behind that. And the magazine as an insert that goes in a standard pmag. This can't be that hard.

I want to know the answer to that as well. Why can't they fit a 9mm insert or whatever into a regular AR mag where it fits on a standard lower? I wish someone could answer that question because that is the ultimate solution.

[n4p226r]

I want to know the answer to that as well. Why can't they fit a 9mm insert or whatever into a regular AR mag where it fits on a standard lower? I wish someone could answer that question because that is the ultimate solution.

I'd imagine that would cost as much as a dedicated mag. Might be easier and better quality to make the whole mag dedicated to the caliber

[alamo5000]

I'd imagine that would cost as much as a dedicated mag. Might be easier and better quality to make the whole mag dedicated to the caliber

I meant like to make a mag with the same dimensions as a PMag or a steel mag for an AR but do like was mentioned earlier... have be be like the .22LR mags where they can fit a standard lower.

1561

There has to be a way to do it like that only in 9mm.

[fledge]

I'd imagine that would cost as much as a dedicated mag. Might be easier and better quality to make the whole mag dedicated to the caliber

Yeah maybe. But for us with grandfathered standard capacity mags, we'd be part of the market. ;)

[Joelski]

Tsk-tsk. You need to grieve and reconcile the fact that there won't be a "grandfathered" anything the way things are going.

[fledge]

Reconciled. :oP

Yet the point about mags will be the same point about the firearms under discussion. So let's do the mags along with a good AR9 system.

[SINNER]

1565



http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-rifles/akx-9r-black-poly-fixed-stock-rifle-detail.html?Itemid=0

[Joelski]

That makes me want to go back to playing with knives... [:P]

Sorry, the to me, the AK is like Tori Spelling. Proof that no amount of money, or alteration can make something pretty.

[UWone77]

you guys have it all wrong. the issue with 9mm ARs is they are making the LOWER fit the 9mm and not the upper. I'm waiting for someone to make a proprietary 9mm upper that works on a standard AR lower and has mags that are the shape of a 30rd 5.56 mag. similar to how the 22lr mags are the same size. I don't care how proprietary the upper parts are, i just don't want to have to change anything with the lower except maybe a buffer and spring. and it has to work with geissele triggers. if i was smarter, rich, and knew mechanical engineering and CAD better than the two classes i took in solidworks 99 i'd develop it myself.

This is why I went with the CMT 9mm. AR inspired, but built as a dedicated 9mm.

[Joelski]

This is why I went with the CMT 9mm. AR inspired, but built as a dedicated 9mm.

Agreed. The CMT is calling. Is there a release date yet?

[UWone77]

Agreed. The CMT is calling. Is there a release date yet?

Should know more at the NWFF late this month. That's when they plan to do the official announcement of it.

[fledge]

I hope their initial production is high enough to meet demand. Definitely let us know UW when you find out.

[Joelski]

^This!

That stuff always drops in between charge cycles for the toy account!

[tb417]

Didn't Olympic Arms make a 9mm sized simunition paint ball thing that used a magazine like that? I'm thinking back about 2000.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[SINNER]

Not a paintball gun but Oly still make those abortions with the proprietary mags.

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/pistol-caliber-carbines.html

[alamo5000]

Back to some of the original questions though... anyone who has an AR9 or knows of anyone that has an AR9...what kind of 'running issues' have there been on the platform? Are they picky on ammo? Are they over gassed? Are they under gassed? Do you have to tinker with the buffer weight a lot? What's the general consensus on the reliability of an AR9?

At the end of the day I will end up having to SBR something because what I really want isn't available.

The downsides to the MPX are that components and parts are a pain in the ass to get. Everywhere I've looked it seems pretty spotty for availability of parts to customize it. That said given a long enough time and I could have both an AR9 and a Sig MPX. On paper both are attractive but I want to hear about some of the faults of the AR9 platform (in general).

[bzdog]

Depends on what you want it for. If defense, a big 300 BLK pro is you are a mag change away from rifle terminal ballistics.

-john

[alamo5000]

Depends on what you want it for. If defense, a big 300 BLK pro is you are a mag change away from rifle terminal ballistics.

-john

For a range toy where I want to shoot a lot for cheap and at shorter ranges... what are some of the quirks of the AR9 platform? I am asking for people to complain about it :) I've heard they can be finicky but I don't know how so or how much PITA it will be if I go the 9mm route.

As was said earlier it's probably a matter of which one is first....

[mustangfreek]

I started a thread asking questions on 9mm builds , if anything done more reading/info for ya

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?8737-9mm-AR-discussion&highlight=

[UWone77]

Back to some of the original questions though... anyone who has an AR9 or knows of anyone that has an AR9...what kind of 'running issues' have there been on the platform? Are they picky on ammo? Are they over gassed? Are they under gassed? Do you have to tinker with the buffer weight a lot? What's the general consensus on the reliability of an AR9?

At the end of the day I will end up having to SBR something because what I really want isn't available.

The downsides to the MPX are that components and parts are a pain in the ass to get. Everywhere I've looked it seems pretty spotty for availability of parts to customize it. That said given a long enough time and I could have both an AR9 and a Sig MPX. On paper both are attractive but I want to hear about some of the faults of the AR9 platform (in general).

For the MPX what exactly is hard to get accessory wise?

[alamo5000]

For the MPX what exactly is hard to get accessory wise?
Maybe I didn't shop around hard enough but let's say I wanted two barrel configurations with two different hand guard lengths.

If you know where I can get the stuff to do that so I can price it all out that would be good.

I didn't spend a month on it but my searches didn't leave me with more details than what I started with.

[fledge]

The MPX is hotter than Hansel right now. I expect parts to be in abundance in the near future, if not already.

[alamo5000]

The MPX is hotter than Hansel right now. I expect parts to be in abundance in the near future, if not already.

I can find an MPX for sale online but once you get the gun, get a stock, pay the stamp etc etc not including any optic you're already over $2000 bucks not including any upgrades that may or may not take place.

I am of course still learning but I would need to part out an 9mm AR and see how much a ground up build would be.

Then again I don't know who I'm kidding right now. I'm broke! LOL Hopefully the financial situation turns around some sooner rather than later. But when it does turn around I want to know what I am in for whatever route I decide to go.

[UWone77]

I can find an MPX for sale online but once you get the gun, get a stock, pay the stamp etc etc not including any optic you're already over $2000 bucks not including any upgrades that may or may not take place.

I am of course still learning but I would need to part out an 9mm AR and see how much a ground up build would be.

Then again I don't know who I'm kidding right now. I'm broke! LOL Hopefully the financial situation turns around some sooner rather than later. But when it does turn around I want to know what I am in for whatever route I decide to go.

Welcome to guns.

Gun, stamp, optic is 2K? You don't say!

[SINNER]

That's a cheap date right there. Lol

[UWone77]

That's a cheap date right there. Lol

Truth. 2k is amateur hour.

I'm looking for Tommy to build me a G36C for $4500 ish later this year.

[Joelski]

Welcome to guns.

Gun, stamp, optic is 2K? You don't say!

I've got baseball cards worth more than that. Damn glad I saved those!

[UWone77]

I've got baseball cards worth more than that. Damn glad I saved those!

Ahhh baseball cards ... Those were some good teenage years collecting those.

[BoilerUp]

For the MPX what exactly is hard to get accessory wise?

I think the only way you are getting a spare barrel, barrel assembly, handguard, or bolt carrier group components is if you have a warranty claim or buy an entire upper assembly. I have seen lower assemblies for sale, though, which is a move in the right direction, as well as 8" and 16" upper assemblies. The mags seem pretty easy to obtain, finally (of course, a $55 street price helps with that!). It seems Sig is pretty busy keeping up with demand for full weapons right now, especially with election season upon us. I am fairly confident parts availability will come, but I bet it will take a year or two.

[UWone77]

I think the only way you are getting a spare barrel, barrel assembly, handguard, or bolt carrier group components is if you have a warranty claim or buy an entire upper assembly. I have seen lower assemblies for sale, though, which is a move in the right direction, as well as 8" and 16" upper assemblies. The mags seem pretty easy to obtain, finally (of course, a $55 street price helps with that!). It seems Sig is pretty busy keeping up with demand for full weapons right now, especially with election season upon us. I am fairly confident parts availability will come, but I bet it will take a year or two.

Yup. I don't think there's anything to worry about. Like you said, give it a year or two, and you'll see availability. Right now they're just trying to keep up with factory orders as it seems like every MPX they make is sold.

I don't think I'm going to do anything to my MPX. It's a factory SBR with the 8" barrel and will probably just get an Aimpoint T2.

I may look at getting the 4.5" barrel down the road when availability allows it, but knowing me, I'll probably just get another MPX SBR with the 4.5" barrel.

[Mecha_Arms]

Truth. 2k is amateur hour.

I'm looking for Tommy to build me a G36C for $4500 ish later this year.

That's some next-level stuff right there. Isn't that price in addition to the donor SL8?

[Joelski]

Same guy takes an SL8 and hands you back a fully functional XM-8, right? Lots of fabricating, but it ain't no plastic fantastic.

Want one of those real bad.

[alamo5000]

Truth. 2k is amateur hour.

I'm looking for Tommy to build me a G36C for $4500 ish later this year.

It may be amateur hour but that's fine by me. I am after all an amateur. While there may be some guns that justify those $5000 price tags the truth is most don't and never will.

I'm not trying to keep up with the Joneses nor am I trying to cheap out. I am trying to come up with the right gun and right platform for me. So far I've built two AR's and I am glad that I took the time to build what I wanted.

There are pros and cons to all this stuff and I am trying to figure out what those are. If Warren Buffett was my dad I wouldn't be having the conversation nearly as much. But even then 'justification' of why one is better than the other is helpful to me learning, but then I get to decide if it's something that I will enjoy.

Once I make a decision to roll with something I will roll with it.

[SINNER]

Get dafuq out of here with that common sense shit.

[UWone77]

Get dafuq out of here with that common sense shit.

LOL truth!

Amateur hour! [:D]

[Joelski]

300 first, then the 9. Mine is the funnest gun I've ever owned. The initial investment is a barrel and ammo; don't like it, you're out a barrel: sell it and move on. The 9 is the easy part for me; I'll eventually get a Scorpion pistol and SBR it; done!

[alamo5000]

LOL truth!

Amateur hour! [:D]


Get dafuq out of here with that common sense shit.

Don't you know it! [BD]

Amateur and proud of it! LOL

On that note what makes that H&K so damned expensive or twice as good as a pretty damned good AR that you could get, build or buy for half that price?

I've shot a $30,000 dollar MP5 and thing was beautiful by all means. But to me most of the price was in the happy fun switch on the thing [:D]

[alamo5000]

300 first, then the 9. Mine is the funnest gun I've ever owned. The initial investment is a barrel and ammo; don't like it, you're out a barrel: sell it and move on. The 9 is the easy part for me; I'll eventually get a Scorpion pistol and SBR it; done!

I do have to face it that I probably will wind up with a 300 BLK at some point but I have already decided that I am not going down that road until I invest in a .30 cal suppressor. I have a number of things I would love to have and that are on my list or in progress (just waiting on funds)....

On the 9mm side I can shoot like hell for pretty damn cheap so that will provide me a lot more fun in the 'right now' category.

All that said I keep on going back and forth on the direction of 9mm... I don't really like the look of the guns with those fugly stick mags, but I am sure I could learn to like it. And the fact that I have way more choices (and growing) of things I could customize it with is appealing and I might be able to get it all done at a slightly better price tag even though I don't plan to use crappy components.

The MPX has it's set or pro's too so who knows what I will do.

First thing first I need to increase my cash holdings [:D]

[alamo5000]

One of the biggest things attracting me to 9mm is that for $1000 bucks worth of ammo I can have a lot of fun.

I need to feed these things somehow... and all things considered having a bad ass gun but can't afford the ammo... no bueno.

[UWone77]

Don't you know it! [BD]

Amateur and proud of it! LOL

On that note what makes that H&K so damned expensive or twice as good as a pretty damned good AR that you could get, build or buy for half that price?

I've shot a $30,000 dollar MP5 and thing was beautiful by all means. But to me most of the price was in the happy fun switch on the thing [:D]

No, it's not twice a good as an AR.

It's all about perceived value. Here's my example. I've always wanted an HK MP5, an A3/A5 and K Model. Who didn't after watching Die Hard? However, I couldn't get my hands on one because of the lack of SBR's in my state since 1994.

Now that we can have SBR's again, I've revisited my MP5 want as I've had the opportunity to shoot our department MP5's over the years. I'm not a true HK fan though. Some guys spend thousands on the real deal. I'm ok with saving a little money by going the clone route. I've got an MKE on a Form 4 waiting, and I just ordered an Omega K from Atlantic Arms that I'll Form 1. My UMP conversion should be approved any week now. The problem with HK is the high prices like you mentioned. The German Govt won't allow certain exports, so the best you can do with them are conversions like the USC to UMP conversion, SL8 to G36 conversion and so on. This takes a lot of expensive parts and some skill for the guy doing the work, so they charge a premium.

The G36C project to me would be fun, but is it worth the $4500 plus the cost of the host? Not for most, and maybe in the end not for me. I budgeted some money for an end of the year LMT MWS and a Nightforce ATACR, so it's either that or go with the G36C. I guess I'll see how I feel after I get my other SBR stamps in.

[alamo5000]

That makes me wonder even more about H&K. Is it really the government preventing their exports or is H&K complicit in it so that they can relegate themselves into high end market? If H&K were in every other gun shop they would have to compete heads up. The second question comes up when you mention 'our department's MP5's'... The question there is why doesn't a US manufacturer design and build lighter, faster, and better submachine guns to compete?

Seems like the Scorpion and the MPX line are the only two out there even in the same category. Could it be that even in LE circles full auto guns are frowned upon? I was walking around Istanbul and there were so many H&K full auto it wasn't even funny whereas in the States there was plenty of cops and firearms but not so much full auto walking around. From what I can tell the full auto in the US isn't allowed as much for regular on the beat cops whereas like in Turkey there would be a guy directing traffic with machine gun hanging around.

Basically I wonder why more manufacturers don't try to get into the sub gun arena?

[mustangfreek]

One of the biggest things attracting me to 9mm is that for $1000 bucks worth of ammo I can have a lot of fun.

I need to feed these things somehow... and all things considered having a bad ass gun but can't afford the ammo... no bueno.


Thought you were reloading now?

Drops 300 ammo cost WAY down and can make 9mm for really cheap..

Stop over thinking and just get both..lol..

[Joelski]

"You never go full retard". Auto for cops is a shock and awe tactic intended to demoralize the threat. If you get the bad guy just say fuggit, and give up, or self terminate... less work and risk. What-if scenarios are expensive though, so fewer are messing with it.

What blows my mind is some depts have their cans welded on. WTF does that to expensive gear??? Right UW?

[UWone77]

In the US, you actually have to have a ton of documented and on going Full Auto training if your department wants to deal with the liability of fielding F/A guns. We don't use the spray n pray method other countries do. How much investigating and liability do you think those cops in Turkey have if they accidentally shoot someone on F/A that wasn't the intended target?

F/A is generally not needed in a civilian police force. 5.56 also as better ballistics than 9mm, better for indoor shooting as well as 5.56 doesn't over penetrate. 9mm sub guns are fun, but inferior as a platform IMHO.

As for welded cans... I can't believe that's even a thing. Even before we had no-SBR's here, I never even considered welding on a can. That's just a bad idea. I wonder if that's why AAC ultimately did not go forward with the Ranger 3.

[alamo5000]

How much investigating and liability do you think those cops in Turkey have if they accidentally shoot someone on F/A that wasn't the intended target?

I can answer that...[BD] Zero!


Thought you were reloading now?

Drops 300 ammo cost WAY down and can make 9mm for really cheap..

Stop over thinking and just get both..lol..

I still need to get a dedicated .30 cal can before I make the leap. That said I can load 9mm for about .12 cents or so a round. And yes I reload everything except shotgun shells. It might not be that bad to do 300BLK. I have to price it all out but from what I recall even reloading you're looking at .40-.50 cents a round depending on the bullet you use. I could be wrong on that though. 3x to 4x more shooting for the same price is nothing to sniffle at especially over the long term.

That's honestly my real kick lately is whatever I am planning to shoot I want to keep a lot of ammo for. I am trying to break the cycle of all hardware and no software. [:D]

Then I have to keep in mind that I want to build or buy a long range shooter too. When it comes to shooting I really enjoy that aspect a lot. I also have two .22LR builds in process (going slow for now)...

Long story short in the big picture I am planning out how to feed the family so to speak.

[Joelski]

As for welded cans... I can't believe that's even a thing. Even before we had no-SBR's here, I never even considered welding on a can. That's just a bad idea. I wonder if that's why AAC ultimately did not go forward with the Ranger 3.

Well, I sure hope I misunderstood the guy telling me this and he meant pinned/welded muzzle device, which doesn't make sense. This is a department that's not far from Rainier, where the work was supposedly done.

[UWone77]

Well, I sure hope I misunderstood the guy telling me this and he meant pinned/welded muzzle device, which doesn't make sense. This is a department that's not far from Rainier, where the work was supposedly done.

There is a department that uses custom 13.5" barrels with OSS cans. Not sure if those are welded though, but Rainier did the work. I can only think of a handful of departments that even use cans.

[alamo5000]

I am still hunting, looking, and pondering while I save up my pennies...

I have a serious contender here:

http://zenithfirearms.com/product/z-5p-pistol/

1606

$1800 bucks includes 3 mags and a bunch of other stuff.

+$200 for the stamp and then another couple hundred-ish for a stock... not a bad option at all I don't think.

Anyone ever heard good or bad about that company and/or it's products?

They are Turkish made H&K clones...

[Joelski]

Meh, I like the CZ better. The only thing that makes the MP stand out is FA, which isn't going to happen, so...

[alamo5000]

Meh, I like the CZ better. The only thing that makes the MP stand out is FA, which isn't going to happen, so...

I need to finger bang a scorpion and see if I like it. I think I picked one up before (long time ago) and it felt kind of too plastic for me.

As much as I would like to custom configure an AR9 at present it seems like sort of a pain in the ass to do. I've only mentioned like 20 times that I don't like the mags too :) That said they aren't off the table by any means.

I think the HK clone would be a pretty bad ass gun but I don't know a whole lot about H&K stuff to be honest. I've only shot one true H&K before ever and that was a FA MP5... fun level 11 out of 10...

MPX vs HK clone... at the end of the day similar price points for what you wind up with...

the Scorpion is a wild card still.

I can see my 9mm can with a 3 lug adapter on the end of each to be honest [:D]

[alamo5000]

Also what's with that messed up barrel thread the scorpion uses? What gives?

[Joelski]

Left hand thread, or metric pitch? It's a yurp gun, so its bound to have its weirdness. HK's aren't going to be much different in that respect. I like the Scorp because it has the right amount of moderness (IMO), without being spacey. It's significantly different from an AR without being commie bloc fugly like AK's (again, IMO). The 9 mil AR's are getting cartoony-looking (IMO) with the miniaturized mag well. It looks like the stiff-legged deer that boings around the meadow from some childhood cartoon I can't recall. The H&K is a badass gun, but its a wee version of some even more badass gun and it's been around nearly as long as the AR but hasn't changed significantly (Read: it hasn't gotten cooler looking like the AR). I just think an SBR'd CZ is an interesting concept that hasn't been done over and over and over. And the price of admission doesn't cost numerous additional deutschmarks based on a roll stamp. Fresh and cool and comfortably affordable is always good.

[alamo5000]

I think I've found what I am gonna get provided I can round up the $$$ to do it.

It might be a while before I can do it so I have plenty of time to think it over.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmyxWhrletk

As for the why's I would want that one over all the rest...

In no order...

1. it's built for 9mm from the onset. No 'adapting a platform'...
2. none of the tinkering to get it to work as you would with an AR9
3. From what I can tell, no gas blow back in the face like the MPX has when suppressed (per youtube videos)
4. It seems extremely reliable.
5. It's metal
6. a very proven platform

Just overall I like it. It seems like it more than checks all the boxes for what I want.

On their site they list them at 1800 bucks but I have found some online for $1675....+200 for the stamp + $300 for the stock...

Total price tag with no optic $2200 bucks for an SBR with 3 mags and a whole kit of stuff included.

If I had the money I would order one of these right now. I think it's the best of all worlds*

(*considering I am still largely ignorant to the AR9 platform)

If Quarter Circle 10 ever releases their AR9 with the MP5 mags I would consider taking a look at those too, but for now that gun as it's shown in the video is clearly in the lead.

[BoilerUp]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete. You can set up an MPX in the same configuration as that MP5K. I suspect my MPX will eventually be an SBR sporting a 4" barrel and the carbine handguard shrouding a suppressor. Again, though, the correct answer is "both", so we're really talking "which first?" Price point is about the same. I will eventually also have an MP5 clone (probably the full size, though, not the K). But the ergos of MPX are better, the transferability of the AR muscle memory is invaluable, I can tap the AR aftermarket for several MPX items (e.g., trigger), I can rebarrel it myself if I ever need to (i.e., switching between 4", 8", and 16" barrel assemblies is trivial), and I think the aftermarket will only grow for the MPX as more of them get out there.

Owning an MP5 at this point is kind of like owning an M1A. Of course we all want one in our collection, but weapons have evolved since the MP5 was designed (see what I did there?). I'm exaggerating a bit, because I don't really think the MPX is "light years" ahead of the MP5, but I think it brings enough innovation, modernity, and compatibility w/ "America's Rifle" to give it sizeable lead over the MP5. Also, you get the satisfaction of supporting American manufacturing.

All that said, I'd never blame or criticize anyone for buying a roller lock. They're awesome, historically significant, well designed, and reliable. I'd take a hard look at the POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) imports over the Zenith/MKE, but there are pros/cons with either. Go spend some time over at the clone forums on HKPro. Also, given that neither Pakistan nor Turkey are particularly stable, there is a case to be make for picking one up now if you find one in stock. There are rumors that Zenith won't be able to bring in any new shipments this year as a result of the current state of Turkey.

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation. I fondled a Scorpion and pretty much hated it. Of course, that's a personal preference. I'd take an MP5 over a Scorpion hands-down.

[alamo5000]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete. You can set up an MPX in the same configuration as that MP5K. I suspect my MPX will eventually be an SBR sporting a 4" barrel and the carbine handguard shrouding a suppressor. Again, though, the correct answer is "both", so we're really talking "which first?" Price point is about the same. I will eventually also have an MP5 clone (probably the full size, though, not the K). But the ergos of MPX are better, the transferability of the AR muscle memory is invaluable, I can tap the AR aftermarket for several MPX items (e.g., trigger), I can rebarrel it myself if I ever need to (i.e., switching between 4", 8", and 16" barrel assemblies is trivial), and I think the aftermarket will only grow for the MPX as more of them get out there.

Owning an MP5 at this point is kind of like owning an M1A. Of course we all want one in our collection, but weapons have evolved since the MP5 was designed (see what I did there?). I'm exaggerating a bit, because I don't really think the MPX is "light years" ahead of the MP5, but I think it brings enough innovation, modernity, and compatibility w/ "America's Rifle" to give it sizeable lead over the MP5. Also, you get the satisfaction of supporting American manufacturing.

All that said, I'd never blame or criticize anyone for buying a roller lock. They're awesome, historically significant, well designed, and reliable. I'd take a hard look at the POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) imports over the Zenith/MKE, but there are pros/cons with either. Go spend some time over at the clone forums on HKPro. Also, given that neither Pakistan nor Turkey are particularly stable, there is a case to be make for picking one up now if you find one in stock. There are rumors that Zenith won't be able to bring in any new shipments this year as a result of the current state of Turkey.

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation. I fondled a Scorpion and pretty much hated it. Of course, that's a personal preference. I'd take an MP5 over a Scorpion hands-down.

Everybody knows that I totally over-think everything [BD]

In this case I am measuring twice and have no saw to cut with, not even once. (I'm broke for the time being). I am still getting back into the work force after taking off almost a year to travel...(like 8 months)...I would have actually been gone longer but some investments went south...

I have plenty of time to think it over so that's both good and bad. LOL

As for now I can only say I am basing my judgements off of Youtube. Of course I did get to fondle a Sig and a Scorpion although just a little bit and I've never gotten to shoot an AR9 in my life. Basically at this point I would be buying blind. It's sort of like that feeling I had when I knew I was going to buy a supressor but didn't know which one to get and basically had to decide on something sight unseen.

All that said within 6 months if I play my cards right hopefully I will have the cash to put whatever I want into SBR format (at least pay for everything). That is barring anything crazy happens.

When it comes to actual firearms though I don't buy based on sentimental value. I've never really watched a Chuck Norris movie and said 'I am going to get a gun just like that'. The sentimental aspect doesn't come into effect whatsoever. But if I am going to buy a gun and SBR it and be stuck with it for the rest of my life I think it warrants research. And yes, sometimes I do think out loud too much here on the forum [BD] Seriously though I TRULY value you guys opinions on these things A LOT because collectively and individually you guys have way more knowledge than I do.

People keep saying that the Sig 'is going to be'... and 'eventually' in regards to parts or whatever and maybe that's just my bad but I dislike the idea that maybe at some point 3 years from now that I might be able to get a spare barrel or a hand guard the length I want it or whatever.

That said, I am sure that if I got the Sig I would be loving it. The MPX is extremely attractive. Let's be honest. I do like it. That H&K clone though does look like it checks a whole lot of boxes too though and none of it is because I watched Die Hard.

In the mean time...

1607

[alamo5000]

I love the MP5, but I honestly do believe the MPX renders the MP5 obsolete.

More than one person has said this but so far no one has explained 'why'. It might sound like a dumb question but what's better about it?

And you are right about 'which one is first' rather than just 'which one'...If I get some investments that go well I have a list ready to go. [:D]

[gatordev]

BTW, aftermarket MP5 mags have a pretty spotty reputation.

Just some additional info for alamo... The POF mags have a very good reputation and mine have run flawlessly. They're reasonably priced, compared to true HK mags, and are for sale new at several of the standard HK parts vendors regularly.

[BoilerUp]

More than one person has said this but so far no one has explained 'why'. It might sound like a dumb question but what's better about it?

I thought I did, but let me recap/expand:
1) Ergonomics/manual of arms: same as AR. Last round bolt hold Open.
2) Modularity: limited shared components with AR, but includes trigger and pistol grip, which lets you tailor #1. Full length top pic rail. Modern, free float KeyMod handguard
3) construction: machined/assembled design allows the owner/operator to rebuild/replace almost everything with limited tooling. I personally place a very high value on being able to rebarrel a weapon on my own. The MPX design is quite innovative here and barrel assembly (which includes gas block/piston) swaps are trivial (this is to allow for the future caliber conversions).
4) OEM/parts support: MPX is a new production weapon that you buy direct from the original manufacturer. If you buy a clone or licensed production import, you are several steps and geographically removed from the OEM. If you buy an HK, I'm not sure what kind of support HK will give you since they haven't sold roller lock rifles to the US civilian population in decades. The main reason HK clones are so expensive is because of the limited supply of parts, especially original HK parts. That fact that Turkey and Pakistan are turning out licensed built versions is helping, but I don't think any actually believes the quality is as good as the "made in Germany" stuff. I keep hoping PTR will get into the 9mm game under license from HK.
5) Mags: Newly designed Lancer mags that load like an AR mag (lay round on top, push down). Not a huge advance, as I think the MP5 mags are supposed to be pretty good if you buy the more expensive OEM mags, but much better than pistol mags, IMO


#3 is actually very important to me and is what renders HK roller-locks as "collectibles" for me. I like to be able to work on my own weapons and the HK roller-lock guns construction limits what an amateur can do without a 20-ton press and welding skills. Arguably, this is less important on a 9mm, but is a huge advantage of the AR15/10 design over the HK33/G3 designs if you want improve your weapon's accuracy by upgrading the barrel. Not only do you have a ton of great barrels to chose from, but it's pretty easy to swap barrels with an AR design.

[Txfilmmaker]

Everybody knows that I totally over-think everything [BD]


In the mean time...

1607

I can soooo relate! [emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UWone77]

I like the MPX, but not in love with it. It's heavy for its size. Heavier than some AR's 's just due to the bulk of the receivers with the width of the buffer springs running side by side of the rear charging handle... just to eject 9mm?

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price. No one wants to pay 5-6K on an HK (unless you just have to have everything HK), 3K on a neutered SP5K, and clones are about the same price.

I wanted an MP5 just because I've always wanted one, and they are fun shooters. The lack of F/A does kill the fun factor though. My MKE finally came in on a Form 3 transfer to RA, so I'll form 4 it later this week or Monday. I also got an Omega K from Atlantic, so I'll eventually Form 1 that as well. This one might take awhile as it's more of a side project so I'll get it eventually converted over.

[Joelski]

I like the MPX, but not in love with it. It's heavy for its size. Heavier than some AR's 's just due to the bulk of the receivers with the width of the buffer springs running side by side of the rear charging handle... just to eject 9mm?

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price. No one wants to pay 5-6K on an HK (unless you just have to have everything HK), 3K on a neutered SP5K, and clones are about the same price.

I wanted an MP5 just because I've always wanted one, and they are fun shooters. The lack of F/A does kill the fun factor though. My MKE finally came in on a Form 3 transfer to RA, so I'll form 4 it later this week or Monday. I also got an Omega K from Atlantic, so I'll eventually Form 1 that as well. This one might take awhile as it's more of a side project so I'll get it eventually converted over.

With all the hardware you have awaiting final transfer, do you get anything done after the conjugal visits to RA? [:D]

[UWone77]

With all the hardware you have awaiting final transfer, do you get anything done after the conjugal visits to RA? [:D]

I don't get too excited about crap that's pending.... only when it's approved!

[Joelski]

You sayin' you don't get to "visit" your form 3 stuff once it's at the dealer?

[UWone77]

You sayin' you don't get to "visit" your form 3 stuff once it's at the dealer?

It's hard to get excited if you don't get to shoot it and/or take it home. I don't think I've ever gone back to their safe to look at my pending stuff.

[alamo5000]

It's hard to get excited if you don't get to shoot it and/or take it home. I don't think I've ever gone back to their safe to look at my pending stuff.

I was tempted to go try and visit some of my stuff but at the end of the day I figured it just makes the wait that much worse.

[alamo5000]

Just some additional info for alamo... The POF mags have a very good reputation and mine have run flawlessly. They're reasonably priced, compared to true HK mags, and are for sale new at several of the standard HK parts vendors regularly.

Could I buy POF mags and they work fine in the Zenith gun? I don't see why not since they are basically clones of the same firearm group.

At the end of the day I am into this as a hobby but sometimes it's almost like a chick trying to find a perfect wedding dress.

As for firearms I am not 'hard' on my guns. I generally take very good care of everything. But if I bite the bullet and get 4 or 5 mags that would last me a really long time. Typically I will test all the mags out and then just use one or two for all my plinking and then keep 4 or 5 or more for backup.

[alamo5000]

I thought I did, but let me recap/expand:
1) Ergonomics/manual of arms: same as AR. Last round bolt hold Open.
2) Modularity: limited shared components with AR, but includes trigger and pistol grip, which lets you tailor #1. Full length top pic rail. Modern, free float KeyMod handguard
3) construction: machined/assembled design allows the owner/operator to rebuild/replace almost everything with limited tooling. I personally place a very high value on being able to rebarrel a weapon on my own. The MPX design is quite innovative here and barrel assembly (which includes gas block/piston) swaps are trivial (this is to allow for the future caliber conversions).
4) OEM/parts support: MPX is a new production weapon that you buy direct from the original manufacturer. If you buy a clone or licensed production import, you are several steps and geographically removed from the OEM. If you buy an HK, I'm not sure what kind of support HK will give you since they haven't sold roller lock rifles to the US civilian population in decades. The main reason HK clones are so expensive is because of the limited supply of parts, especially original HK parts. That fact that Turkey and Pakistan are turning out licensed built versions is helping, but I don't think any actually believes the quality is as good as the "made in Germany" stuff. I keep hoping PTR will get into the 9mm game under license from HK.
5) Mags: Newly designed Lancer mags that load like an AR mag (lay round on top, push down). Not a huge advance, as I think the MP5 mags are supposed to be pretty good if you buy the more expensive OEM mags, but much better than pistol mags, IMO


#3 is actually very important to me and is what renders HK roller-locks as "collectibles" for me. I like to be able to work on my own weapons and the HK roller-lock guns construction limits what an amateur can do without a 20-ton press and welding skills. Arguably, this is less important on a 9mm, but is a huge advantage of the AR15/10 design over the HK33/G3 designs if you want improve your weapon's accuracy by upgrading the barrel. Not only do you have a ton of great barrels to chose from, but it's pretty easy to swap barrels with an AR design.

Thank you for that. (seriously)

Here is my take on what you're saying. It's not a rebuttal but rather a way of thinking which can be right or wrong or just opinion but hopefully I can get more feedback. Per your list...

1. Last round hold open...I don't see why this is such a big deal. Not a deal breaker for me since my steel targets aren't going to run away while I change mags. I imagine the hold open would be nice but I am not sure of the tactical advantage of it or why so many people make a big deal about it ESPECIALLY for range toys.

on the ergonomics front I do find that very important. Things like that lever on the scorpion that will gouge into your finger... I wouldn't buy one just for that reason alone (if that's all there was to it)...but provided it's comfortable to handle I can live with that. Customization is a big deal which is one reason why I keep thinking AR9. Now all that said when I went out shooting that MP5 that my friend has I didn't find it uncomfortable at all. That said it would be nice to be able to pick up and handle a gun before buying just to make sure.

2. I have never really been big into adding wigits onto my guns although Slipper's light officially qualifies as the first thing. I like it a lot. If I could do an AR9 with an Mlok handguard that would allow me the greatest amount of customization.

3. I too place a lot of value on being able to work on a gun in a reasonable fashion. Which is one reason why I like the AR9 idea. From what I've seen breaking down a H&K variant will yield a bucket full of pins and springs and looks pretty much like a pain in the ass.

4. On parts for the H&K I don't know if I would like someday paying $60 bucks for some spring or whatever but one would hope there is a supply of parts just based sheerly off of longevity... but I guess not.

5. With the mags once I find a half dozen good mags I am not worried about it. I won't pay $150 each for them but 6 or 7 mags would last me a really long time. So once I pony up money up front I am generally good for a while.

At the end of the day I really like the one in the video I put up but there are pros to other things too.

Honestly an AR9 still seems like it would fit me and my wants better but I am more confused than ever on that concept. There simply isn't one dominant 'standard' out there so I feel like I am building my first AR15 again. I don't know what parts on an AR9 are standard parts from an AR15 and which ones aren't.

I mean simple stuff... is the upper being used a standard AR15 upper? Is it proprietary? Can I get a CMC trigger and drop it in an AR9 and have it work? Can I use a standard AR15 handguard? It seems like they used as much standard parts as they could but just shrunk down the magwell but I could be totally wrong on that front.

Basically put I haven't found the perfect solution yet but there are some things that have a lot of potential.

[gatordev]

Could I buy POF mags and they work fine in the Zenith gun? I don't see why not since they are basically clones of the same firearm group.


I would use the Google machine to confirm, but I'm guessing you wouldn't have an issue.

[alamo5000]

The MP5 is an old design, but I would argue 9mm platforms now are marginally better than a 60 year old design. However, what the newer 9mm platform has going for them is price.

I like the way you think. I don't know that a snazzy new wigit is 'substantially' better or more reliable although like I mentioned I think with the H&K clone there would be a learning curve to do a full breakdown. I also don't like over paying.

If I could build a solid AR9 for $1500 bucks or even more than that I would be fine but truth be told I don't care for how they look. To me buying a glock mag AR9 is like buying a smart car. Yeah they work but they aren't the prettiest thing to look at.

I do and I don't get why everybody and their brother are gravitating to the two main mag choices but to me both are kind of a turn off especially for something I will have for 25 years or more.

[OTShooter]

I just stumbled on this thread, and I think I have some useful experience to share.

First, my first SBR was a 9mm AR. NOT a dedicated 9mm, but the Form 1 configuration is in 9mm with a 10" barrel. I have a Rock River magazine block, and it runs all my various magazines flawlessly. That's because the block is adjustable, not because Colt-style 9mm AR magazines are all perfect, but because I can set the mag block where it needs to be to run all my mags.

So point #1 with 9mm ARs is that magazines make a huge difference. And I think magazine selection should drive what sort of 9mm AR one decides on.

Which leads to this: My second SBR is a QC10 GSF lower, that I currently run with the 10" 9mm upper. I will eventually get a .40 S&W upper for it - that was the ultimate purpose in going with this particular dedicated design: to get a .40 S&W carbine/SBR for all forms of "social interaction."

My first 300 Blackout gun is an 8" upper that runs on my first SBR lower. Like a top, I might add. I think 300 Blackout almost demands handloading, at least as of now, but it's a very flexible round. I don't have a .30 can at the moment, but that's a definite plan. It's a blast to shoot unsuppressed and supersonic, and I've developed some surprisingly accurate loads with 110gr, 120gr and 150gr bullets.

Point #1 for 300 Blackout is that it's all about the ammo. If you don't handload, you're at the mercy of the ammo makers. If you do, it's all about taking your time and developing loads that do what you want them to do.

With both of my pistol caliber setups and my Blackout setup, all the ergonomics are exactly the same as with any standard AR, and yes I use exactly the same buffer and spring for the 9mms and for the Blackout.

Sig's MPX has me salivating, but for now I think I will have to hold off and just watch the show. I hope to have an MP5 clone before I invest in a Sig. More affordable and I actually have a little trigger time with an MP5... ;)

[alamo5000]

I just stumbled on this thread, and I think I have some useful experience to share.

First, my first SBR was a 9mm AR. NOT a dedicated 9mm, but the Form 1 configuration is in 9mm with a 10" barrel. I have a Rock River magazine block, and it runs all my various magazines flawlessly. That's because the block is adjustable, not because Colt-style 9mm AR magazines are all perfect, but because I can set the mag block where it needs to be to run all my mags.

So point #1 with 9mm ARs is that magazines make a huge difference. And I think magazine selection should drive what sort of 9mm AR one decides on.

Which leads to this: My second SBR is a QC10 GSF lower, that I currently run with the 10" 9mm upper. I will eventually get a .40 S&W upper for it - that was the ultimate purpose in going with this particular dedicated design: to get a .40 S&W carbine/SBR for all forms of "social interaction."

My first 300 Blackout gun is an 8" upper that runs on my first SBR lower. Like a top, I might add. I think 300 Blackout almost demands handloading, at least as of now, but it's a very flexible round. I don't have a .30 can at the moment, but that's a definite plan. It's a blast to shoot unsuppressed and supersonic, and I've developed some surprisingly accurate loads with 110gr, 120gr and 150gr bullets.

Point #1 for 300 Blackout is that it's all about the ammo. If you don't handload, you're at the mercy of the ammo makers. If you do, it's all about taking your time and developing loads that do what you want them to do.

With both of my pistol caliber setups and my Blackout setup, all the ergonomics are exactly the same as with any standard AR, and yes I use exactly the same buffer and spring for the 9mms and for the Blackout.

Sig's MPX has me salivating, but for now I think I will have to hold off and just watch the show. I hope to have an MP5 clone before I invest in a Sig. More affordable and I actually have a little trigger time with an MP5... ;)

Thanks for your post. I am a big reloader so that's not a problem. For me there are pros and cons of each kind of setup. A .300 BLK is good because I have an SBR'ed lower already. It's not good because I don't have a can for it yet, however I do have the option of using my 9mm can on it just so long as I shoot all subs all the time. The cost to shoot it though is higher and it means while I am trying to get out of so many calibers that I will be adding a caliber.

A dedicated 9mm SBR is probably the best option for me but so far I haven't found what just turns me on in that area.

A couple of points of my own... 1) I am definitely gonna get deeper into the NFA game. There is just no getting around it. That applies to more SBR's and more suppressors. 2) I am not very good at buying blindly. You can pretty much ask anybody here about that one. [BD] But before I buy and commit to an SBR I think I need to shoot em before I buy em. That's kind of difficult because I have been to an actual public gun range I think once or maybe twice in 2 or 3 years. The last time I actually went to a public range was about 2 years back. Basically I need to drag my ass down to Houston somewhere and just rent the guns and do a side by side.

On top of all that I have to just make priorities about all the stuff I want. As of right now I am leaning to getting a nice long range precision rifle first because it is something I like to do a whole lot and it's a 'hole' in my firearms line up. If I can ever get my butt back to working full time it will make a whole lot of this stuff easier. Basically there is a lot of stuff not related to guns at all that's holding me up right now.