Would someone educate me on lasers for the AR? (Short Version)

[FortTom]

Could someone please educate me on lasers - types-price ranges-suitability-recommended brands? That just about says it all right there. I want to use a compact, lightweight laser on my lightweight (Voodoo) rifle that would be suitable for Urban use's or possibly out to say 100 yards? Red? Green? Price range? Why?

I'd like a rail mount laser to place between (hopefully) my Aimpoint and front MBUS sight if possible.

I know very little about lasers for rifles, so don't beat me up too hard.

Thanks Ahead,

FT[:D]

[alamo5000]

I am watching because I don't know sh*t either about them.

[FortTom]

[:D] ^^^^

[alamo5000]

[:D] ^^^^

I didn't want you to feel lonely in the not knowing anything department [:D] I hang out in there pretty frequently but they still put up with me around here....LOL

[GOST]

Are you wanting to use an IR laser with night vision goggles or a laser light combo like a Surefire X400? Most of the argument I've heard against using a visible laser on a rifle is that it may give away your location, which may not be desirable for a home defense rifle. If you are using a red laser with a red dot will you be able to see the laser looking through the red dot? If your planning to invest in night vision goggles the Steiner DBAL-I² Class 1 IR laser has both visible and IR, and the Steiner Otal is IR only. Both of these are civilian legal. The Dbal is on sale for $693, and the Otal is on sale for $359 so you can save up for night vision goggles.

https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-i2-class-1-ir-laser/

https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-otal-class-1-ir-laser/

[Default.mp3]

IME, green is way better than red; this is from using an X400 and switching over to an X400U-GN. The green is far more visible, both during the day and night, and thus easier to use. The only downside is cost, and potentially inferior operating temperatures, depending on the particular green laser used; older green lasers used diodes that were quite temperature sensitive and power hungry, but some of the new designs match the red lasers in operating temperature and battery life.

Lasers are useful when shooting from unorthodox/compromised positions or with a pro mask, but beyond that, it doesn't offer anything that a red dot can't do better, at least from a shooting POV. It can be useful for signalling, but if you're not on a team that has proper procedures for such use, then it's not particularly relevant.

There are no duty-grade stand-alone visible lasers that I would consider adding to a long gun.

The Surefire X400U and Streamlight TLR-2 are pistol-oriented, and would most likely to be too tall for use on the 1200. They also suffer from a fairly large differential from the bore. Switchology can also be an issue here, depending on mounting location and your shooting style. The Steiner SBAL-PL does minimize the bore issue, but has even shittier switchology, as there is no tape switch for it.

The Steiner DBAL-I2 dual spectrum is probably the cheapest, duty-grade, rifle-oriented solution, but has an additional IR component that is pretty much useless if you're not going to be running NODs. If you were, you'd have to invest in some form of IR illumination, too, as IR pointers without an IR ilum is equivalent to running a gun with no WML. This holds true for all the vetted long-gun oriented visible laser units, that they are coupled with IR pointers and cost a large chunk of money.

The Crimson Trace LNQ-100G LINQ is interesting, but remains unproven, unavailable, and couples you with a 300 lumen light, which may be useful, or may be too weaksauce for your taste if you're used to an M600U.

I've seen people try to run the Crimson Trace CMR Rail Masters, but they invariably sucked, as they would fail to hold zero.

Haven't heard too much about the Crimson Trace MVF foregrip lasers, though the design itself looks like it would force you to a broomstick hold on the VFG, which is a fairly inferior shooting style.

[Slippers]

Steiner has a couple other variants of the DBAL that are more interesting. You can get the DBAL-I2 with infrared laser and infrared illuminator for the same price as the visible/IR laser versions. You lose the visible laser, of course, which makes zeroing a little harder (you have to do it with NV, basically).

For a couple hundred more there's the DBAL-A3, which has visible and IR lasers, plus the IR illuminator. Honestly, if you can afford NV, you can afford this one.

Once BE Meyers catches up with demand, they will also have a civilian legal version of the MAWL. Might be worth waiting for.

[FortTom]

Thanks, all. Very useful.
FT[:D]

[schambers]

IR is extremely useful when you're indoors and using NODs. Easy to just keep the laser on and using it to point-aim. IR is also useful for signaling and designation. YMMV depending on how trained up everybody is on the employment of IR.

I've never personally had much use for lasers outside of the IR spectrum so won't comment on using lasers in daylight. Optics and red dots work fine when the lights are on. Can't think of a situation off the top of my head when I used a laser in the daytime.

I would suggest looking into a Class III laser, if you have the ability to purchase one. More powerful laser, easier to see.

As far as types of lasers, I'm partial to the PEQ-15 but thats probably because I'm around them a lot. BE Myers is coming out with a new, compact IR/VIS laser system that may be worth checking out.

A big thing to think about if you working in a team, is how much training you have working with lasers. They are not completely intuitive and could cause confusion if people aren't conditioned to them (especially IR).



Also, I was told in the past that green lasers are generally easier to see up close but red wavelengths travel farther before degrading, so they are more visible at farther distances. This explanation was based off tech from the last generation of lasers, so things might have changed.... or it may just be untrue.

[Stickman]

What is the purpose of wanting a laser on your rifle? Assist you with targeting?

[FortTom]

What is the purpose of wanting a laser on your rifle? Assist you with targeting?
Stick, I wanted one rifle, that for me - fitment, weight, etc., that would be primarily used in an urban or CQC or similar situation. Sort of a "paranoid - the Clintonian Global Police and Confiscation Force" show up and I decide to go down swinging, or any other apocalyptical situation I might conjure up[crazy] where a point and shoot dot (laser) would be ideal and night vision would not be required or wanted. More realistically I think It'd be great to take out to the farm and have a blast shooting up 4 or 5 hundred rounds, killing randomly placed cans and other targets hiding between piles stumps, in the barns, etc.

FT.[:D]

[Thompson]

They also sell a commercial version of the AN/PEQ-15: https://tnvc.com/shop/l3-insight-atpial-c-class1-ir-laser/

FT - do you have NODs already? If not, getting something to see IR can get pretty expensive.

If you really don't have a need to see things in the invisible spectrum, don't see a need to pick up an IR laser.

Unfortunately I don't have any experience with lasers in the visible spectrum. The decent bit I do know about is NOD's/IR's.

[Sak007]

There is a great documentary that is all about lasers





1683

[FortTom]

Ha..ha.. Yeah that was a great old movie. I'd bet Val Kilmner would like to be that young again.
FT[:D]

[Sak007]

I Know squat about lasers accept that I want NV and a B.E. Meyers MAWL when and if they make a civilian version
http://www.bemeyers-mawl.us/
1684

[FortTom]

Wow, I knew that I didn't posses much knowledge when it came to lasers for firearms, but now I'm really finding out how much I really don't know. I imagined a unit that would put a red dot on something without having to look through an Aimpoint (so I can just point the gun and shoot without aiming). Maybe those only exists in movies?

Thanks,
FT

[GOST]

FT from experience of using others rifles with lasers finding the dot when pointing without looking through a rds was not that easy, that's why I don't have one. If I could afford night vision goggles and could see the IR laser path now that would be fun. But using others rifles with lasers is the only experience I have with them.

[Slippers]

Wow, I knew that I didn't posses much knowledge when it came to lasers for firearms, but now I'm really finding out how much I really don't know. I imagined a unit that would put a red dot on something without having to look through an Aimpoint (so I can just point the gun and shoot without aiming). Maybe those only exists in movies?

Thanks,
FT

You can use it that way but in broad daylight it will be very difficult to see the laser at anything beyond very close range.

With NV you can see the IR beam along the entire length, not just the dot at the end.

[UWone77]

If you want to play around with a visible laser as well as having the option to go with NV later, get a DBAL. They can be had on sale around $699, cheaper on the secondary market. Lots of lightly used DBALs out there (just be careful of fakes)

I'm in the market for NV, but I've been tossing around getting thermal instead.

Eventually I'll get a MAWL to round out the collection.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/5S3A3681_zpsdgpej9mt.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/5S3A3681_zpsdgpej9mt.jpg.html)

[gatordev]

UW, your collection won't be complete until you get an IZLID.

And look at that PEQ-2...that's just absurd. How did we live like this?

[Sak007]

If you want to play around with a visible laser as well as having the option to go with NV later, get a DBAL. They can be had on sale around $699, cheaper on the secondary market. Lots of lightly used DBALs out there (just be careful of fakes)

I'm in the market for NV, but I've been tossing around getting thermal instead.

Eventually I'll get a MAWL to round out the collection.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af282/richdkim77/5S3A3681_zpsdgpej9mt.jpg (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/richdkim77/media/5S3A3681_zpsdgpej9mt.jpg.html)

Going to TNVC when funds allow will be about the only reason I would ever go back into Ca . I was looking at the Stiener DBAL with the slaved green visible but then the MAWL

[alamo5000]

I'm in the market for NV, but I've been tossing around getting thermal instead.

I don't know much about lasers but from what I do know the NV or thermal route is way more appealing and appropriate for me.

One setup I've considered is a small NV pic mount monocular mounted up behind my T2. All I want is to ID targets from a dark position from 50-100 yards...

To me that's way better than a laser because both are passive.

Thermal also is appealing because you can be informed of the sheer presence of people or in my case some animals, namely pigs.

Even a little hand held thermal could be an option, but if I could have both on QD mounts where I could swap a little monocular as needed... That would be awesome.

[alamo5000]

Also in the case of a zombie apocalypse do you see yourself standing in the middle of main street guns blazing or would you go for cover and concealment? I think I would be more one to own the area using the latter method.

[UWone77]

UW, your collection won't be complete until you get an IZLID.

And look at that PEQ-2...that's just absurd. How did we live like this?

Like savages!!

I think Surefire Vampire heads will be sufficient for illumination. [:D]

[UWone77]

Going to TNVC when funds allow will be about the only reason I would ever go back into Ca . I was looking at the Stiener DBAL with the slaved green visible but then the MAWL

The biggest problem with the MAWL... even the civvy version with be north of 2k, likely $2500. I will assume the beam will be superior to the DBAL and ATPIAL-C, but you can get 3-4 DBALs and at least 2 ATPIAL-C's for the price of one MAWL. You can see that BE Meyers is marketing this 99% to the MIL/LE Agency side. I bet it's another year before you see the civvy version.


Also in the case of a zombie apocalypse do you see yourself standing in the middle of main street guns blazing or would you go for cover and concealment? I think I would be more one to own the area using the latter method.


I don't think of ridiculousness like this. [BD]

[gatordev]

All I want is to ID targets from a dark position from 50-100 yards...

To me that's way better than a laser because both are passive.


That's not really how NV (or thermal) works. Can you tell the difference between 4-legs and 2-legs? Absolutely. But you can't really ID friend or foe from 100y unless you know the specific person and their normal mannerisms (and sometimes their clothes, depending on what they may normally wear and how it is conveyed in near IR).

Also, I'm curious...why does actively sending IR energy out worry you vs. passive? Pigs can't see IR, unless they're also wearing NVDs.


Like savages!!

I think Surefire Vampire heads will be sufficient for illumination. [:D]

Oh, it's not an illuminator, my friend...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wL25P__HO4

We have them on our GAUs and M240s.

[alamo5000]

Stick, I wanted one rifle, that for me - fitment, weight, etc., that would be primarily used in an urban or CQC or similar situation. Sort of a "paranoid - the Clintonian Global Police and Confiscation Force" show up and I decide to go down swinging, or any other apocalyptical situation I might conjure up[crazy] where a point and shoot dot (laser) would be ideal and night vision would not be required or wanted. More realistically I think It'd be great to take out to the farm and have a blast shooting up 4 or 5 hundred rounds, killing randomly placed cans and other targets hiding between piles stumps, in the barns, etc.

FT.[:D]


I don't think of ridiculousness like this. [BD]

I was poking fun at Fort Tom a little bit :P


That's not really how NV (or thermal) works. Can you tell the difference between 4-legs and 2-legs? Absolutely. But you can't really ID friend or foe from 100y unless you know the specific person and their normal mannerisms (and sometimes their clothes, depending on what they may normally wear and how it is conveyed in near IR).

Telling the difference between a pig, cow, and a person would be sufficient [BD] But admittedly I am not an expert in, nor anywhere near to being able to buy NV or thermal and I've never used either except in some very limited situations. Just knowing if another human is present, or if that noise is an armadillo or a cow is a pretty big deal.

As far as the 'range' goes, in my mind 100 yards is the far edge of the limit I was referring to. More like half that would be more like it.

All that said I would like to learn more about the capabilities and range limitations of this stuff. I've for sure never tried to positively ID a human at night using NV but am I just bullshitting by thinking that I could tell if that person was armed or not or some other basic information? I don't really know the limitations of different setups and all that.



Also, I'm curious...why does actively sending IR energy out worry you vs. passive? Pigs can't see IR, unless they're also wearing NVDs.

I wouldn't quite use the term 'worry'...but if you must ask... I have seen the movie Patriot Games (with Harrison Ford) and when those terrorists went in to take over the house they all had NV as well. [:D] [crazy]

In general though I haven't used a whole lot of lasers, especially high end stuff, but if you are gonna shoot the target it seems like you would have the same ID problem with or without a laser. Also I can say that I don't know the limitations or benefits so I couldn't say for sure if I like it or not. Just in general though I have never really been a big laser fan. That said I've been converted to other things that I didn't think I liked but that was only after I saw people who knew more about it doing it and what it all entails.

[alamo5000]

Also, I'm curious...why does actively sending IR energy out worry you vs. passive? Pigs can't see IR, unless they're also wearing NVDs.

Another thing (for me) that would qualify as a passing concern about any kind of laser in a rural area with dense vegetation would be 'obstruction' of the laser's path. If the pigs are say walking around in 2 feet of weeds and you can see and clearly identify them but how would obstructions such as tree branches, tall weeds, or maybe even just shooting from a blind be handled?

[alamo5000]

Here's an example:

Go to 1:10 in this video...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQRMGB8aF6I

He has several obstructions... a fence post, wire, etc....but what about other kinds of natural obstructions that might be far away or up close to you or your target? You might be in a concealed position where you can get off a good safe shot but what happens if weeds or tree branches or whatever rustle in the wind in front of your laser?

I am asking more than anything because this is something that I've been curious about.

[alamo5000]

Since we are on the subject I got to youtube searching and I found this...

Interesting stuff for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIhFupwqOU4

[Sak007]

Where is a good place to pick up used DBALs ?Extra's UW ?

[alamo5000]

Here's another cool video... I am learning... I am learning alot...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9x3VNtM7aHM

[alamo5000]

So basically the illuminator sends out a 'cone' of light that can only be seen using NV. The laser sends out a targeting beam like any other laser only it's used for aiming purposes. Again it can only be seen using NV.

Correct?

[schambers]

So basically the illuminator sends out a 'cone' of light that can only be seen using NV. The laser sends out a targeting beam like any other laser only it's used for aiming purposes. Again it can only be seen using NV.

Correct?

Yes.

To be extremely reductive, an IR illuminator can be thought of as an IR flashlight.

The major difference between something like a surefire with a vampire head and an IR illuminator is that generally, you can adjust the size or intensity of the IR beam with the illuminator. The surefire/vampire is a fixed output. Also, in my experience, IR illuminators can usually be focused down to reach longer distances v. a surefire/vampire.

[UWone77]

That's not really how NV (or thermal) works. Can you tell the difference between 4-legs and 2-legs? Absolutely. But you can't really ID friend or foe from 100y unless you know the specific person and their normal mannerisms (and sometimes their clothes, depending on what they may normally wear and how it is conveyed in near IR).

Also, I'm curious...why does actively sending IR energy out worry you vs. passive? Pigs can't see IR, unless they're also wearing NVDs.



Oh, it's not an illuminator, my friend...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wL25P__HO4

We have them on our GAUs and M240s.

Admittedly, I don't keep up with the latest military gear, and I'm not one of those crazy cloners. Military gear for the most part is cost prohibitive and unavailable, so I don't pay attention too much. I do appreciate bringing in your knowledge though!

[gatordev]

Another thing (for me) that would qualify as a passing concern about any kind of laser in a rural area with dense vegetation would be 'obstruction' of the laser's path. If the pigs are say walking around in 2 feet of weeds and you can see and clearly identify them but how would obstructions such as tree branches, tall weeds, or maybe even just shooting from a blind be handled?

It's a beam of energy, just like a flashlight. A laser is a focused beam of energy, an illuminator is an array of energy. Either way, if something is in the way, it will reflect it. The guy in that video wasn't skittish because of the obstructions and his laser, he's skittish because of the obstructions and his bullet. On the civilian side, if something reflects the energy back at you (tree, post, etc), it's not going to cause an issue. On more powerful .mil lasers, the reflection of the energy may still be within the NOHD of that particular system, so it can be a concern. But that's not something you'd have to worry about with Class IIIa (or lower) lasers.


Admittedly, I don't keep up with the latest military gear, and I'm not one of those crazy cloners. Military gear for the most part is cost prohibitive and unavailable, so I don't pay attention too much. I do appreciate bringing in your knowledge though!

Says the guy with a contract DD barrel and a PEQ-2... Next thing you're going to tell me is that Stick doesn't know he has a GL/SSC!

Some day one of those shall be mine...

[UWone77]

It's a beam of energy, just like a flashlight. A laser is a focused beam of energy, an illuminator is an array of energy. Either way, if something is in the way, it will reflect it. The guy in that video wasn't skittish because of the obstructions and his laser, he's skittish because of the obstructions and his bullet. On the civilian side, if something reflects the energy back at you (tree, post, etc), it's not going to cause an issue. On more powerful .mil lasers, the reflection of the energy may still be within the NOHD of that particular system, so it can be a concern. But that's not something you'd have to worry about with Class IIIa (or lower) lasers.



Says the guy with a contract DD barrel and a PEQ-2... Next thing you're going to tell me is that Stick doesn't know he has a GL/SSC!

Some day one of those shall be mine...

LOL... if Stick didn't introduce me to certain people, I wouldn't have searched for those items on my own.

The PEQ-2 I bought from another LEO who worked as a contractor in Iraq, never ended up using it as they were issued PEQ-15's when he arrived. Never had to use it and brought it back in unused condition.

I've shot Stick GL/SSC upper, I guess I don't know what the excitement is over. I guess I had to be in the service to understand that one.

[Thompson]

All that said I would like to learn more about the capabilities and range limitations of this stuff. I've for sure never tried to positively ID a human at night using NV but am I just bullshitting by thinking that I could tell if that person was armed or not or some other basic information? I don't really know the limitations of different setups and all that.

... generally speaking yes. But night vision is dependent on external light sources (ie: moonlight). So if you're in pitch black conditions, your night vision devices will not work properly. Thermal on the other hand, is not affected by this -- it is however, affected by glass. Can't see through it -- however, you can see through glass with night vision devices.

Just some general info for you to pick at, thermal (IR) is divided up into 3 sections on the invisible light spectrum. SWIR, MWIR, and LWIR.

SWIR: short wave IR - typically your 0.7-2 µm
MWIR: mid-wave IR - typically your 3-5 µm
LWIR: long-wave IR - typically your 8-14 µm

NIR: near IR, on the other hand is where your night vision devices operate in


For thermal there's 2 types of polarity. White hot and black hot. Generally speaking white hot is used for detection, and black hot is used for identification -- but at the end of the day, individual operator's experience and preference will dictate which is used. Switching between the 2 polarities can also help catch overlooked targets.

In terms of resources for learning on night vision and thermal, don't know much on the civilian side.

For the Army side however, there's a really good resource out there (CAC login): https://rocv.army.mil/

All you can ever want to learn about I² (aka what everyone calls night vision) and thermal - cause technically both fall under the purview of "night vision"

Oh and alamo, you'll get a kick out of this - check out the AN/PSQ-20. (The result of NVG + IR = E-NVG)

[Sak007]

I'm assuming that AN/PSQ-20 cost more then my car , hell I need the exercise .
Anybody wanna buy a 45mpg German deisel ?:P

[gatordev]

I've shot Stick GL/SSC upper, I guess I don't know what the excitement is over. I guess I had to be in the service to understand that one.

Nothing substantially special about, just that it's very rare. Plus I want one because it would look super-sharp on my 12.5" Centurion Arms go to shooter.


... generally speaking yes. But night vision is dependent on external light sources (ie: moonlight). So if you're in pitch black conditions, your night vision devices will not work properly. Thermal on the other hand, is not affected by this -- it is however, affected by glass. Can't see through it -- however, you can see through glass with night vision devices.


Thermal can also be effected by "thermal crossover," which happens when ambient air and objects become the same temperature. This usually happens at dusk and dawn, but can also happen on a hot night. Oh, and thermal is also affected by particulate, specifically humidity or rain. Probably not as big a deal at the ranges that would applicable to shooting/hunting, but is a major issue when trying to ID something more than a mile or two away.

[FortTom]

Thank you all for your time and effort to "educate" me. The take away I get from all of your replies is that this is a much more complicated subject than I thought.

My tongue-in-cheek response to Stickman's question as to why I wanted a laser, was not a lack of sincerity, or that I don't take firearms seriously, but just a chance for me to say, in a light tone, that this was something I was interested in, truthfully, to play with, but a serious tool I could use in the unlikely event I ever would need it for self defense purposes. I'm red-faced, when I realized the folly of trying to find a target in the dark with a "red dot" from a laser, that I can't see in the first place. I really didn't think that through...duh...pretty obvious.

However, reading through all of the responses, there's a lot more to it than I thought, and I didn't realize just how much. I thought, through ignorance that I could get something on the order of a glorified laser pointer, set up some targets, in a barn, and point and shoot without having to properly aim. However, I'm going to take a mulligan on that, since I did absolve myself of guilt, as I proclaimed, truthfully, ignorance of the subject, from the start.[BD]

NV gear comes into play, and I truly envy the "younger" crowd who has the latest, coolest gear I've (never) seen. It's come a long way since I retired in '95, to the point that it's totally alien to me, and also a super heavy chunk of change to buy it, and a laser. Way to much for shooting bats in the barn.

If nothing else, though, it's been a very informative thread for me, and possibly others who might have misconceptions about lasers and AR's.

So, again, I thank you all for your time and input.

FT.[:D]

[alamo5000]

Thank you all for your time and effort to "educate" me. The take away I get from all of your replies is that this is a much more complicated subject than I thought.

My tongue-in-cheek response to Stickman's question as to why I wanted a laser, was not a lack of sincerity, or that I don't take firearms seriously, but just a chance for me to say, in a light tone, that this was something I was interested in, truthfully, to play with, but a serious tool I could use in the unlikely event I ever would need it for self defense purposes. I'm red-faced, when I realized the folly of trying to find a target in the dark with a "red dot" from a laser, that I can't see in the first place. I really didn't think that through...duh...pretty obvious.

However, reading through all of the responses, there's a lot more to it than I thought, and I didn't realize just how much. I thought, through ignorance that I could get something on the order of a glorified laser pointer, set up some targets, in a barn, and point and shoot without having to properly aim. However, I'm going to take a mulligan on that, since I did absolve myself of guilt, as I proclaimed, truthfully, ignorance of the subject, from the start.[BD]

NV gear comes into play, and I truly envy the "younger" crowd who has the latest, coolest gear I've (never) seen. It's come a long way since I retired in '95, to the point that it's totally alien to me, and also a super heavy chunk of change to buy it, and a laser. Way to much for shooting bats in the barn.

If nothing else, though, it's been a very informative thread for me, and possibly others who might have misconceptions about lasers and AR's.

So, again, I thank you all for your time and input.

FT.[:D]

Don't sweat it man. No need to apologize or explain yourself. I say keep bringing it. If you have questions ask. That way I won't be the only one around here asking complicated questions [:D]

I can say that I learned a lot from this thread too. From the whole forum I have learned a lot. Thankfully everyone here is entertaining and knowledgeable both.