Breakthrough: Long Range Shooting (for discussion)

[alamo5000]

I've been doing some light reading and there is some good things afoot [wow] (Check out the links)

I don't know who else is interested in long range shooting but check this out.... they are designing bullets now with phenomenal performance capabilities.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/07/29/flat-line-bullets/

And this one....

http://www.warner-tool.com/

And here's a video (you can skip the excessively long introduction if you want)...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36LozyICts

In general for shooting really long distances you need a bullet that has a good ballistic coefficient. That basically amounts to longer bullets that are more aero dynamic. A shorter bullet as it flies through the air at long distances will start to lose stability and will tumble. This is the generic reason why long range shooters all shoot heavier grain bullets.

Imagine if you will a missile... now imagine that same missile but that it's 1/2 the length. The longer one (within reason) will be more stable in flight. Same thing goes for bullets.

This is why something like a 6.5 grendel can go out to 1000 yards and beyond (long sleek bullet that is stable in flight) and other bullets that are chunky and fat are better used for different applications.

Since this is after all "Weapons Evolution" its safe to say that these guys are re-inventing the game. I am sure the science here is astounding but the results are just 'wow'.

Here is something to ponder on... a quote from the website listed above regarding a 155 grain .30 caliber bullet...

"Flat Line Projectile fly as fast as the next lower weight class of bullets, but have a BC of the next higher weight class. This projectile has the velocity of a 125-135gr. bullet and has the BC of a 185-200gr. bullet."

That is literally just insane.

If you look at the video he took his .308 AR10 out to beyond 1,400 yards!

He said in the video it took 13.1 mils, or in MOA that is 44.2 MOA. At 1,440 yards! From my experience just because you can see it doesn't mean your scope has that much adjustment to get there.

Just for comparison purposes a regular 168 grain .308 round would require around 22 mils (around 77 MOA) of correction for the same shot.

8.9 MIL (or 32.8 MOA) in the DOPE DIFFERENCE!!!!

It changes the whole dynamic of things to have this stuff available. With a regular old scope you can now push out to extreme distances. Also you can carry much shorter barrels and still have an extremely long effective range.

For reference my longest shots were at 1000 yards with a bolt action .308. Basically with almost that same DOPE I would be on the 1,400 yard target.

I could see this having huge military implications. I have no idea what kind of things different branches of the military's snipers' carry, but if you have total bad ass cartridges like this you theoretically could reliably get a 1,000 yard effective range out of a 14.5" barrel.

Now THAT is awesome.

[alamo5000]

Just in carrying a standard combat load of 200 rounds, not even mentioning the weight savings on the rifle, you would save around whole pound in ammo weight savings alone assuming you could drop down from 180 grain bullets to 155 grain bullets.

Save a pound of weight in ammo, save a pound of weight from a shorter barrel, save weight on the optic... it all adds up...

Crazy.

[alamo5000]

FYI at present the bullets alone currently cost around $1.25 a piece (from that company). I am assuming that if they go full on into production the price point could come down a lot. But if you're reloading and can get a 1,400 yard cartridge out of the same gun.... I could see that being viable.

[Sak007]

Sorry to get sorta of topic but does the image of the video look like he's shooting at his Labradar ?

[alamo5000]

Sorry to get sorta of topic but does the image of the video look like he's shooting at his Labradar ?

I was thinking 'I don't see any dogs in there?'.... duhhh. j/k

[Sak007]

I was thinking 'I don't see any dogs in there?'.... duhhh. j/k
1682

[Sak007]

Might have to pick up some rounds to test load

[alamo5000]

"Kunz says they’ve been able to push this new 175gr bullet out of a 300 Win Mag with a 26” barrel at a blazing 3430 fps!

I ran some ballistics for comparison. Applied Ballistics Munitions produces 300 Win Mag ammo loaded with a 230gr Berger Hybrid, and they say it has a muzzle velocity of 2850 fps out of a 26” barrel. That is one hot load! I ran that data using the JBM Ballistic Engine, and it looks like our bullet would go transonic (velocity drops below 1.2 mach) at 1475 yards.

Then I ran ballistics for this new 175gr Flat Line bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3430 fps, and in that scenario, our bullet wouldn’t go transonic until 1760 yards … exactly 1 mile. That means this bullet would provide a 20% improvement in the effective range of the 300 Win Mag. That’s no small improvement!"

Supersonic at a mile. Damn.

Even though the projectiles are expensive just think of the comparative costs. If you want to get out to those ranges with traditional methods you're gonna spend an arm and a leg on hardware costs alone. With this though you can get to those ranges at a substantially reduced cost in hardware as well as continued cost (ammo).

It ain't a cheap sport, but this is a hell of a lot cheaper relative to the other options to get out that far.

[Sak007]

I've been planing on getting a Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor but for the price of the rifle I could load 1k rounds for my ar308 or make the feels decision and get both [BD]
Time to go scout my 2 mile plus range and make sure the loggers haven't destroyed it

[UWone77]

I've been planing on getting a Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor but for the price of the rifle I could load 1k rounds for my ar308 or make the feels decision and get both [BD]
Time to go scout my 2 mile plus range and make sure the loggers haven't destroyed it

That Ruger Precision in 6.5 looks promising for the money.

One of these days I'll build up my AR10 Rainier set with this 6.5 UltraMatch barrel I've got laying around.

[alamo5000]

I've been planing on getting a Ruger Precision in 6.5 Creedmoor but for the price of the rifle I could load 1k rounds for my ar308 or make the feels decision and get both [BD]


That Ruger Precision in 6.5 looks promising for the money.

One of these days I'll build up my AR10 Rainier set with this 6.5 UltraMatch barrel I've got laying around.

That Ruger looks alright on paper. I might go see if I can go fondle one somewhere.

As usual though I am debating about which direction to go. Lately I have been leaning towards picking up a .308 set and building that up. Put a 20 MOA mount on it and that's easily a 1000 yard gun. There are pros and cons to pretty much everything.

[SINNER]

Nothing new about lathe turned projectiles. Other than the fact someone is actually publishing their numbers and selling them on the retail market. They really are good for nothing other than bench shooting. Terminally they perform about as well as an ice pick. They also don't fit in any magazines.
0 military potential.

And as far as off the shelf bolt guns in Creedmoor from what most are saying the best one going is the Savage 12LRP. Mixed reviews on the Ruger from the guys really stretching them out.

[Aragorn]

One of these days I'll build up my AR10 Rainier set with this 6.5 UltraMatch barrel I've got laying around.

THAT sounds like a win.

[Joelski]

One of these days I'll build up my AR10 Rainier set with this 6.5 UltraMatch barrel I've got laying around.

I'm surprised you don't have several. Are all of the ones you currently have 223/5.56?

[alamo5000]

Speaking of long range guns has anyone tried to build a bolt action rifle?

For some serious coin you can get one any way you like it I'm sure.

But let's say for example I got a Remington 700 action chambered in whatever, but then I have to start swapping things out. I am pretty sure a qualified gunsmith would need to do things like rebarreling the gun... But how much of it is more simple things?

I'm not even really talking as much about doing it all myself but rather to just build it like I want it from the start rather than buying a gun and then change everything out in it....

[Slippers]

Speaking of long range guns has anyone tried to build a bolt action rifle?

For some serious coin you can get one any way you like it I'm sure.

But let's say for example I got a Remington 700 action chambered in whatever, but then I have to start swapping things out. I am pretty sure a qualified gunsmith would need to do things like rebarreling the gun... But how much of it is more simple things?

I'm not even really talking as much about doing it all myself but rather to just build it like I want it from the start rather than buying a gun and then change everything out in it....

What would you want to swap out? You could install a new trigger yourself. If you're using a chassis then you could also change that out easily, too. Bedding a stock isn't too difficult, either.

Any serious work to the action should be done by someone with a fair bit of experience, and hopefully a good track record. It's definitely not like an AR15.

[DeviantLogic]

What Slippers said is right on the money. A Rem 700 isn't a AR15...or a 10/22. Barrel and action work you're going to want to take it to not just a qualified gunsmith...but someone that is known for working on precision bolt rifles.

One of the nice things about the Ruger Precision is the ability to change out the barrel yourself. It also has a fairly low entry cost for what you're getting.

I've got a Rem 700 AAC-SD...the trigger and stock needed to be changed out, but it's now a sub-MOA rifle. It probably performs better than I can shoot. After I have a few thousand more rounds through it, I'll pick up a new barrel and have the action blueprinted. I'll send the rifle off to have the work done.

I went with the factory Rem 700 to spread the costs out...but it's also something I'd wanted to do for several years. The initial costs to get me shooting were about $700 for the factory rifle + $1700 on a new scope / mounts. A couple months later upgraded the trigger for about $200. After about a year I spent $900 on a new stock plus another $300 on detachable bottom metal. That's really where I'm at right now. In the end that's about $2,100 to get a nice sub-MOA shooter (without the cost of scope).

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5657/21825478492_5df8c28813_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/zfDhnj)

[alamo5000]

What would you want to swap out? You could install a new trigger yourself. If you're using a chassis then you could also change that out easily, too. Bedding a stock isn't too difficult, either.

Any serious work to the action should be done by someone with a fair bit of experience, and hopefully a good track record. It's definitely not like an AR15.

I already know that I would need expert help so in general it's not an at home kind of a job. But let's say I wanted a specific chassis or whatever, and a specific barrel that is also threaded for suppressor use, a bigger bolt handle, at least a 20 MOA scope mount, a really nice trigger...

Pretty much what I have in mind wouldn't be "stock"...

I would have to look around and price things out to see what the parts alone would cost me, but it was just a thought... If I buy a full rifle and end up having a yard sale for an old trigger or a stock that I don't like, and a bolt and a barrel that isn't what I am after...

I am just wondering if paying someone to put together key areas of the gun from parts I select would be cost effective or not. Basically putting the action, barrel, and bolt all together and having the right head space and whatnot... then the rest of it (bedding, trigger, or anything else) I could have done locally here for not that much.

The end result would be a rifle 'how I want it' and not just a new layer of paint on something else. I would pay extra (and I know I will--just how much is the question) to be able to mix and match as I like.

[Slippers]

As an example, you can get a Remington 700 AAC-SD in .308 with a 20" threaded barrel for $700 or so. Doesn't come with a scope base. The trigger is so-so. The hogue stock is flimsy.

If you want to be economical, a krg x-ray chassis (or similar) and NF/Badger scope base gets you a basic, decent setup. The chassis also lets you use AICS magazines. Shoot the barrel out, then when you have it replaced, blueprint the action. Change the trigger yourself whenever you want.

If instead you want a really nice barrel from the get-go, why wouldn't you choose an equally nice action like a Defiance or Surgeon? Some have built in bases or recoil lugs, nicer bolt handles, etc.

I don't think it makes much sense to buy a complete 700 just to tear it apart for a new barrel, unless you get it dirt cheap. At one point Brownells sold stripped actions.

These days I'd risk a Ruger RPR and change the barrel if the stock one wasn't up to par, and throw a better handguard on as well.

[SINNER]

Or you could go with a Savage action and all you need for barrel changes is the correct headspace gauge and a barrel wrench.

Also search "Remage" barrels. It sets up a Remington like a Savage with a barrel nut.

New Savage will likely surpass the Ruger. Just not a big fan of anything Ruger has made in the past few decades.

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/BAStealth