PDA

View Full Version : Opinions on .243 calibers



alamo5000
24 September 2016, 20:24
What is the general consensus on the .243 as a caliber/round? What are the pros, what are the cons... anything else worth mentioning?

The main application would of course be target shooting at distances from 300 yards on to over 1000 yards or more...

Former11B
28 September 2016, 07:11
Solid round with good market support.

Burns up barrels shooting them hot, but then again, so does 6.5CM or any other "match" round.

You can load some insanely fast projectiles in .243....I was loading some coyote killers (65gr VMax around 3500fps with Alliant Varmint powder)

Here's my Ruger .243 Mannlicher (get your mind out of the gutter)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqhhjcbmd.jpg

Jerry R
28 September 2016, 07:46
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqhhjcbmd.jpg

Beautiful rifle !!

Plus 1 on 11B's comments. I have a Remington 40XB-KS that I use for varmint hunting. Factory target that came with it was 3/8". I have handloads that match that. I load to factory spec - 70 grain V-Max that I moly coat - and really like the cartridge. Federal factory 70 grain Noslers chrono average is 3414 out of my 27" barrel - I keep the moly loads around 3400 and molys typically have a little less pressure than non-molys at the same loading. My Prairie Dog buddy liked his (I ordered a pair from the factory when I had an FFL) so much that he bought a Model 7 Mountain Rifle in .243 for deer hunting. I personally would not use it for anything larger than east coast whitetail, but that's just me. Others use it successfully on larger game. A very nice cartridge used within sensible limits. Can be extremely accurate; factory ammo and components available in several bullet weights.

Can't really think of any cons. Pros - multiple powders are good with it (I use Varget), all components and tools readily available. Again, it is not a "do everything for everyone" cartridge, but I like it.

alamo5000
28 September 2016, 08:05
Solid round with good market support.

Burns up barrels shooting them hot, but then again, so does 6.5CM or any other "match" round.

You can load some insanely fast projectiles in .243....I was loading some coyote killers (65gr VMax around 3500fps with Alliant Varmint powder)

Here's my Ruger .243 Mannlicher (get your mind out of the gutter)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/DownSouthTAS/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsqhhjcbmd.jpg

If I am shooting relatively heavy grain bullets (95 or 105 grain) the velocity is still 3000 fps or less. Do you think the barrel life will suffer (or will be extended some) if I am not shooting hot loads?

Keep in mind that with the long range gun I have in mind I won't be shooting crazy amounts. Maybe a couple hundred rounds a session. I am not really looking at some crazy mag dumps. I am aiming for a round and a gun that will be able to get me past 1000 yards. The only hitch is I am not really looking to go 'bigger'...I think any of the 6 or 6.5's will get me there...

Basically I am looking for a balance between cost to shoot and getting out there for a relatively reasonable cost.

The other thing I am looking at before I leap is I want to know what to expect or what I am going to get in the way of barrel life. Barrels are a wear out part, but I have been seeing some insanely low round counts from various sources.

I am also going to call my local gunsmith that I like and talk to him about the cost to rebarrel a bolt gun. If it's not horrendously expensive I might just buy a couple of barrels and go from there.

I think it was Sinner that pointed out that Savage has some bolt guns that have a barrel nut...after reading up online there are several companies that make them like that. Black Hole Weaponry does as does a few others. Some of them even make them for a Remington 700 action as well as Savage models.

Basically instead of buying a gun and then replacing everything on it, I am going to price out the basics for building a gun like I want it. A whole bunch of companies make long and short actions for a variety of platforms including Remington 700 clones on to all sorts of stuff.

It's all kind of new turf to me so I any input is appreciated.

Former11B
28 September 2016, 10:55
If you're looking to go past 1000 yards with precision, you're going to have to load hotter .243. You will need all the energy you can get at those ranges.

Ever thought about .30-06? Or is that what you meant by not going "bigger".... in terms of caliber

Slippers
28 September 2016, 12:24
If you are shooting competition, by all means, go for a 6-6.5mm cartridge. Otherwise you might consider that you can easily reach past 1000 with .308, which wears out barrels about 1/4 as fast and has a ton of ammo availability, along with reloading components. Yeah, .308 is not nearly as good at long distance, but learning to deal with this should make you a much better shooter when you do transition to 6-6.5mm.

alamo5000
30 September 2016, 19:17
If you're looking to go past 1000 yards with precision, you're going to have to load hotter .243. You will need all the energy you can get at those ranges.

Ever thought about .30-06? Or is that what you meant by not going "bigger".... in terms of caliber

I wouldn't be opposed to a .30-06 provided it will get to the ranges I am hoping for. When I say 'bigger' I am talking more like .338 or something like that. Basically I am looking for something that is reasonable cost to shoot. Things like brass that costs $1 per case or something 'exotic' kind of makes me hesitate. Even if you look at 6.5 CM, how many companies are even making that kind of brass? If I go with 6.5x47 ... same thing... or 6mm Creedmoor... On paper a .243 is on balance a good overall cartridge for my purposes but I could be totally wrong...

The downside is of course barrel life...

But look at this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaoJ_BWE1u8

1400 yards with a .243. Seems alright to me. The same guy shot the gun out way past that. I am pretty sure there are other cartridges that can get to those ranges...




If you are shooting competition, by all means, go for a 6-6.5mm cartridge. Otherwise you might consider that you can easily reach past 1000 with .308, which wears out barrels about 1/4 as fast and has a ton of ammo availability, along with reloading components. Yeah, .308 is not nearly as good at long distance, but learning to deal with this should make you a much better shooter when you do transition to 6-6.5mm.

Oh you have no idea how much I have been considering a .308. [BD] I have personally shot to 1000 yards with one. I have been extremely tempted to build an AR10 but a bolt gun would work as well. So far I've held off on building a .308 based on you guys recommendations. Also I am not sure but I have heard loading heavy bullets (175+) to magazine length is going to be a challenge.

What I am talking about has a total of ZERO tactical use. It is nothing but 100% fun. So on that front I guess I can look at it in a couple of different ways.

I can sit there and bang on a 1000 yard plate all afternoon with the right .308 gun and reload. I can practice reading wind which is in my opinion a HUGE skill to have. On the other hand I can just go straight into a gun that I can grow into. I can still practice reading wind no matter what I choose to shoot, but at the same time I can have a gun that will give me other challenges. Even if I have to go through a couple of barrels it's still cheaper than building or buying an entirely second new gun.

Up the road I might come into a lot of money but for now if I am going to drop 3 or 4 thousand bucks on a rifle, optic, etc etc...I am thinking I might should just choose carefully.

I don't want to come off as being cheap, I just want to choose wisely. Whether or not a .308 will float my boat for just plain old target shooting out 1000 yards or beyond... I just kind of have to suck it up and go with something that I think will make me happy and will challenge me a lot. All of these cartridges have something good about them. I just have to pick something and go with it.

BoilerUp
30 September 2016, 19:46
You also might want to consider the .260 Remington. I think that might hit the sweet spot for you. It's 6.5mm based on .308 brass. You give up a bit of the optimized case geometry of the 6.5CM in exchage for cheap brass. But I think first you have to decide if you want 6mm or 6.5mm. Personally, I like that the 6.5 gives you a bit of extra energy that could come in handy for hunting. But all I have currently in this ballpark is .308. I'm leaning towards a large frame AR in 7mm-08 in a lightweight build as a pretty versatile hunting rifle.

alamo5000
30 September 2016, 20:30
You also might want to consider the .260 Remington. I think that might hit the sweet spot for you. It's 6.5mm based on .308 brass. You give up a bit of the optimized case geometry of the 6.5CM in exchage for cheap brass. But I think first you have to decide if you want 6mm or 6.5mm. Personally, I like that the 6.5 gives you a bit of extra energy that could come in handy for hunting. But all I have currently in this ballpark is .308. I'm leaning towards a large frame AR in 7mm-08 in a lightweight build as a pretty versatile hunting rifle.

6mm or 6.5 is good for a bullet. I will definitely take a look at that round and see what I can come up with. Based on my quick google search that .260 could be an extremely nice option. Wow! We have a new leader here... based on my initial look that round is still supersonic (using a Berger 140 grain bullet) out to 1400 yards... that is awesome.

From my searching around brass for the .260 isn't widely available (not like .223/5.56 brass) and what is available is kind of high... but from what I'm reading if I really had to do it I could neck down some .308 brass and make my own. I've never necked down a cartridge before so I don't know that process. (anyone have experience here?)

But man... that cartridge looks very nice. Thanks for turning me onto that. I am going to read more about that.

Slippers
30 September 2016, 21:06
Several reasons 260 rem is good:

Easy to convert 308 brass.
Lapua makes 260 rem brass.
Less steep shoulder compared to 6.5 creedmoor is potentially better for autoloaders.
More case capacity than 6.5 creedmoor - higher velocity

Downside is factory match ammo isn't as common, costs more.

alamo5000
30 September 2016, 22:11
Several reasons 260 rem is good:

Easy to convert 308 brass.
Lapua makes 260 rem brass.
Less steep shoulder compared to 6.5 creedmoor is potentially better for autoloaders.
More case capacity than 6.5 creedmoor - higher velocity

Downside is factory match ammo isn't as common, costs more.

So far this is an extremely good option for all the reasons you mentioned. I reload everything and especially any kind of gun of that nature won't be an exception. If I can get or make brass for it and reasonably purchase bullets then we're good. Once I make or get brass I could probably reload for 75 cents a round or less.

I am going to have to figure out what case necking requires in the way of 1) pain in the ass and 2) equipment (dies etc)... I screw around with so much brass anyway that's not a problem. I could either watch some stupid remake of MacGyver on TV or I can do something else on the weeknights when nothing else is going on. Just do it an hour at a time and pretty soon you have a stash.

Also when I shoot something of that nature I generally won't go through 500 rounds in one outing. One outing, I could do 100 rounds maybe. The idea is to work on skills not just make racket. It's a different kind of shooting. Who knows. I might do more than that. I don't know. But I do know that barreling a rifle is just gonna happen. It's part of life. Same thing as buying new tires for your car. I think the .260 has a fairly decent barrel life.

If say I went shooting once every week or two and shot 100 rounds at a time....I could probably get a year or more out of the barrel. I probably won't be shooting that particular rifle that frequently (once a week). And then I have to think that I am shooting other stuff too (AR's, shotguns, or whatever) so in the grand scheme of things rebarreling might be a once a year (or more) kind of thing which isn't too bad. I am not going shooting when it's freezing cold, or the weather sucks, or if I have something else going on. It's fun not a job. $500 or $600 bucks over a year or two isn't too bad of a deal.

BoilerUp
1 October 2016, 05:44
Disclaimer: I'm just regurgitating what I've read elsewhere as I've been considering my choices in this area, too. I don't reload/shoot any of the 6/6.5/7mm cartridges

I've read a few reports of .260 Rem barrel life being around 3500 rounds before you start to notice degradation in accuracy, but can be as high as 5k if you aren't loading too hot. It's certainly an attractive round, especially for hand loaders. I think the reason 6.5CM overshadows it anymore is that you can get reasonably prices factory match ammo that is very accurate. I think I've read before that if you handload, there is a slight advantage to the .260 and if you don't then the advantage goes to the 6.5CM. Personally, I keep eyeballing the Tikka T3 Compact Tactical in .260 Rem, but I also keep coming back to the 7mm-08 as a fantastic versatile round for both long range shooting and hunting up to Elk sized game.

But I also have this irrational bias against brass that is sized for something different than the headstamp (e.g., 300 BLK brass stamped .223, or .243/.260/7-08 brass stamped .308)

alamo5000
1 October 2016, 08:26
Disclaimer: I'm just regurgitating what I've read elsewhere as I've been considering my choices in this area, too. I don't reload/shoot any of the 6/6.5/7mm cartridges

I've read a few reports of .260 Rem barrel life being around 3500 rounds before you start to notice degradation in accuracy, but can be as high as 5k if you aren't loading too hot. It's certainly an attractive round, especially for hand loaders. I think the reason 6.5CM overshadows it anymore is that you can get reasonably prices factory match ammo that is very accurate. I think I've read before that if you handload, there is a slight advantage to the .260 and if you don't then the advantage goes to the 6.5CM. Personally, I keep eyeballing the Tikka T3 Compact Tactical in .260 Rem, but I also keep coming back to the 7mm-08 as a fantastic versatile round for both long range shooting and hunting up to Elk sized game.

But I also have this irrational bias against brass that is sized for something different than the headstamp (e.g., 300 BLK brass stamped .223, or .243/.260/7-08 brass stamped .308)

That is TOTALLY irrational! I think the first time you pull the trigger on a 1000 yard target and hear the gong go off your bias will be eliminated [BD]

I spent all night looking around at this caliber (until I fell asleep) and saw a few rifles that could do it. I still have some window shopping to do but I also heard that Savage magazines are a bit longer allowing you to load and feed heavies that are loaded long (reloading stuff). This is actually a big deal because if I can reload tipped bullets with heavy grain bullets ... well that is my goal one way or another to have that kind of round. I haven't researched out the validity of that (any help appreciated)...

That's one problem with the .308... if I load the heavy tipped matchkings, bergers, or the new Hornady ELD Match bullets it might cause a length problem. I am not sure if this is reality or not for this caliber (260).

http://www.hornady.com/store/6.5mm-.264-140-GR-ELD-Match/

But daaaaamn. Look at that BC... .620 is insane. That is the best I've found so far. There are several bullets of this nature out there but all of them might have length issues. Keep in mind I am going to load for accuracy not just fitting it into the mag. I want to seat just off the lands etc.

alamo5000
1 October 2016, 08:34
I've read a few reports of .260 Rem barrel life being around 3500 rounds before you start to notice degradation in accuracy, but can be as high as 5k if you aren't loading too hot. It's certainly an attractive round, especially for hand loaders.

I have read the same thing about barrel life. If that's true that's one more reason to give it a good consideration. Getting an extra 1000 rounds or more out of the barrel is a very nice thing to have. I am going to design or pick one out that can handle heavy rounds (140ish) grains and then go from there. According to Berger's website a 1:8 twist is optimal for that.

alamo5000
1 October 2016, 11:39
The Tikka T-3 Sporter looks very interesting for my use. 24" threaded barrel...

http://corlanes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/d30191_edited-1.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QKP3HlVAqkA/maxresdefault.jpg

For maybe $1400 bucks seems like a pretty good deal to get me in the game.

A couple of questions though... for that rail thing on the bottom there how would you add a 3 slot pic rail so I can use my Atlas bipod?

Also any ideas about a 20 or so MOA base that would fit on there? I could either go one of a few ways...the gun has a dovetail on top of the reciever as well as screws to add a pic rail on top of the reciever...(you can choose whatever flavor works for you.

1)hunt for a dovetail base that is 20 MOA with a pic rail on top...
2) add a standard rail and then get 20 MOA mount to go on it
3) see if there is anything such as a 20 MOA ring set up...

I am not sure if anyone knows the pros and cons of any of those or if anything is superior or inferior out of those choices... (looking at you Slippers)[:D]

Also I am still looking at or rather trying to figure out if the OAL on a 140ish grain bullet (like in the above post) would be longer than magazine length....

gatordev
1 October 2016, 14:43
but I also keep coming back to the 7mm-08 as a fantastic versatile round for both long range shooting and hunting up to Elk sized game.

I was in a class with someone running 7mm-08 and during the session talking about external ballistics, one of the examples was his numbers as a comparison/teaching point. Sheesh. I think his rounds traveled back through time, they were moving so fast.

mustangfreek
2 October 2016, 02:17
Several reasons 260 rem is good:

Easy to convert 308 brass.
Lapua makes 260 rem brass.
Less steep shoulder compared to 6.5 creedmoor is potentially better for autoloaders.
More case capacity than 6.5 creedmoor - higher velocity

Downside is factory match ammo isn't as common, costs more.


Pretty much what I would say , I'd skip the 243 and grab a 308 but for more accuracy/thump/range ,I would grab a 6.5, 260 or a few others but I also reload so that plays a part for some..

But I ain't got any of the above but a pile of 308 sitting around for something....someday

Former11B
4 October 2016, 08:30
.308 isn't a glamor caliber or hot and new, but it's a solid, established player in the market.

If you're looking at 1000+, I'd probably try to get a 22"-24" barrel to give you the extra velocity push for further distances.

alamo5000
4 October 2016, 17:17
Pretty much what I would say , I'd skip the 243 and grab a 308 but for more accuracy/thump/range ,I would grab a 6.5, 260 or a few others but I also reload so that plays a part for some..

But I ain't got any of the above but a pile of 308 sitting around for something....someday


.308 isn't a glamor caliber or hot and new, but it's a solid, established player in the market.

If you're looking at 1000+, I'd probably try to get a 22"-24" barrel to give you the extra velocity push for further distances.


I have absolutely NOTHING against .308. I have wanted one or two for quite some time now. Let's not kid ourselves... if money grew on trees it wouldn't even be a question. I am merely 1. Prioritizing what I get first and 2. trying to make an informed decision. One decision can and will influence other later on decisions...because I try to build or buy with a purpose in mind....

By the time you build or buy the gun, get a scope, get the brass, bullets, powder, primers, etc....you're talking quite a bit of coin to have a gun with any kind of decent stock of ammo. Let's say $2 grand for a decent gun...about the same for a decent scope....and you're talking another grand or more to keep a few thousand rounds of bullets, brass, primers, etc in a decent supply...if you space all that out over time it doesn't feel so bad [BD] but still... you're talking about a pretty good financial commitment for the 'whole package'.

In the end I am really glad the .260 was brought up by Boilerup. As of right now that is my primary choice for the type of gun I have in mind. On paper it looks fantastic. And the cool thing is (over time) I can stock up on a bunch of good .308 brass.

My logic behind it I guess is there is carry over and sharing that can take place among several calibers and guns I already have. If I get a 1400+ yard gun that uses .308 brass as the base...I think planning this stuff out can have a big impact on 'how' I put together a .308 and in other areas too. If I have a 1400+ yard gun then I can build a .308 that is meant for 6-800 yards or so... I can go scout rifle instead of trying to make it a super long range 26 inch gun...and naturally it could go longer but I can 'intend' the gun and it's parts to be in that arena. I think that is the sweet spot for a .308. It can go farther for sure but I am talking about the overall build (or buy) and the concept behind it all...

Also when I do go over to .308 I can use the same powder for my blaster AR15 SBR loads... I can consolidate as much as possible. (I have two jugs of CFE223 that I have high hopes for that can also be used in .308) I am going to try and develop an accuracy load with 69gr SMK with it and see how it does compared to Varget... if that works then I can just buy one powder for multiple guns already.... but being able to share powder is a good thing...

More or less with the long range gun that's one thing to try and get sub MOA... but if I get that under my belt... when I do a .308 I can share powder and just worry about getting a 1 MOA gun or so and just roll with it.

For the really long gun 24 inch barrel for sure... I still haven't made any final decisions yet but I am narrowing down my choices a lot...but I am making big picture plans here... LOL

gatordev
4 October 2016, 17:22
Good news, alamo. If you go with a .30 cal-based brass round, I know a guy who could help you out with a fair amount of 7.62 brass. You know, if you're looking. Disclaimer...it's crimped brass, so...there's that.

alamo5000
4 October 2016, 18:09
Good news, alamo. If you go with a .30 cal-based brass round, I know a guy who could help you out with a fair amount of 7.62 brass. You know, if you're looking. Disclaimer...it's crimped brass, so...there's that.

Know a guy... a friend of yours right? [BD] I bought a bunch of military crimp Lake City .223 brass. Trying to get through a 5 gallon bucket full of that is teaching me a lot LOL!

My job just went full time as of yesterday so I have a lot of catching up to do on a lot of things. At least now I am getting a lot closer to formulating a plan though. Over the course of the next year I will 1) finish my Kidd 10/22 build...2) get a .260 bolt gun of some sort...3)I would really like to build an AR10 from a CMT set (but I am getting nervous about it after hearing about people with so many problems with them)

I would also like to get another suppressor too...I already have $10 grand (at least) plotted out to spend LOL!

Former11B
5 October 2016, 09:39
Good news, alamo. If you go with a .30 cal-based brass round, I know a guy who could help you out with a fair amount of 7.62 brass. You know, if you're looking. Disclaimer...it's crimped brass, so...there's that.

Crimped primer pockets? No problem! I have the crimp remover in my prep station already


And Alamo, try 25.5gr CFE 223 with your 69gr SMKs at 2.250". It work reel gud

gatordev
5 October 2016, 14:50
Crimped primer pockets? No problem! I have the crimp remover in my prep station already


I was mostly joking and didn't mean to spam the thread, but I do have a healthy amount of FC/LC brass (crimped) that I'm not super-excited about moving when I have to move in a few months. Maybe my mood will change if ammo prices explode, but for now, I just can't get excited about reloading with all of the other distractions of life.

alamo5000
5 October 2016, 16:19
And Alamo, try 25.5gr CFE 223 with your 69gr SMKs at 2.250". It work reel gud

I still have a jug of Varget to use up... but if I could consolidate that round using CFE that would be awesome. I would buy a few more jugs of CFE223 if it works that well.

You got a load for 75gr bullets? I bought 4000 Hornady 75gr bullets for my SBR ammo... I will start load development at some point. Probably after I deplete my current stash of ammo.

Former11B
5 October 2016, 17:34
I still have a jug of Varget to use up... but if I could consolidate that round using CFE that would be awesome. I would buy a few more jugs of CFE223 if it works that well.

You got a load for 75gr bullets? I bought 4000 Hornady 75gr bullets for my SBR ammo... I will start load development at some point. Probably after I deplete my current stash of ammo.

I have seen people run CFE up to 26.5gr with no pressure signs with a 75gr bullet (max) but I haven't worked higher than 69gr bullets with CFE223. I was given a few pounds of ARComp and have a thousand 75gr Hornadys and was going to pair them up.

However, work it up but if you're using that Rainier barrel, 24.1gr of Varget and the 75s should do real well.



I was mostly joking and didn't mean to spam the thread, but I do have a healthy amount of FC/LC brass (crimped) that I'm not super-excited about moving when I have to move in a few months. Maybe my mood will change if ammo prices explode, but for now, I just can't get excited about reloading with all of the other distractions of life.

No worries; if you want to dump some when you're ready to move, let me know!

gatordev
6 October 2016, 08:07
Will do.